I'm still super new to the game, and am currently playing Avernus with some friends. Our group is 4 players: Druid (Moon), Cleric (Grave), Bard (Whispers)/Warlock (Hexblade), and my character. Right now we're level 7, and I have my levels planned out until about 10 but could use some help deciding a direction for the remaining 3 levels (I was told Avernus generally goes to level 13).
So, when we started the campaign my friends (more experienced than me) worried we might not have a lot of damage, so I kind of went ham making sure I could make up for it. I was worried it would make the character boring, but it's been a blast to play so far. Here's the build:
STR - 14 | DEX - 20 | CON - 16 | INT - 13 | WIS - 15 | CHA - 13 (We rolled stats and I got extremely solid rolls.)
In case theme matters in your suggestions, I essentially flavored it so that Emboldening Bond, Wails from the Grave, and maneuvers like Maneuvering Strike are him manipulating the ethereal strings that connect him to all living things. He also started the campaign as overly cautious and wanting to get as much information as he could before going in, but slowly is becoming a more decisive as the levels go by. Next level he'll be getting his maneuvers which I think is when he'll really be showing that change from looking to others for direction and wanting to be careful to leading and being more decisive.
For those last three levels I have two options I'm mulling over (feel free to suggest others, though, if you think they'd be fun):
Option One: +1 Rogue | +2 Fighter This would give me +1d6 more on Sneak Attack and another 1d6 on Wails from the Grave. It would also give me Uncanny Dodge. I've only been caught out 1 or 2 times, but both times I got absolutely hammered, even with my 17 AC. The two fighter levels would give me 2 more maneuvers and an ASI/Feat that I would like to use on Fey Touched (WIS), grabbing Hunter's Mark, Misty Step, and cleaning up that 15 WIS. Alert and Ritual Caster (no one in our group has Identify and having a Familiar would be bomb) are also options I'm contemplating here. It would also give me Know Your Enemy to gain info on possible enemies we can stake out for a minute.
Option Two: +3 Ranger (Gloom Stalker) I don't think I need to go over everything this would give me, but I'd probably pick up Fiend as Favored Enemy, Infernal, and Desert as Favored Terrain due to the wording for those features (I'm assuming Avernus is considered a desert, but I have no clue). I'd also likely snag the Defense Fighting Style for the +1 AC, as I don't really use melee weapons and already have Archery from Fighter levels. For spells, likely would go with Hunter's Mark and grab some more utility like Alarm.
Really just looking for some feedback. I think either of these would be fun choices for me, but one isn't really jumping out to me as a clear choice. Luckily I rolled super well on my stats, so if you think a different dip (or just going straight Fighter or Rogue or even Cleric) would be more fun, I'm definitely open to the suggestions.
We talked about likely continuing the campaign after Avernus, but I'm going to assume we end at the end of the campaign for now.
Phantoms don't get really good until Rogue 9, so I'm reasonably shocked you're so willing to give up on Rogue levels. With only the L3 Phantom abilities, you have.... 1 dynamic skill proficiency and 2 for now, 3 later uses per day of Wails. That's pretty terrible compared to Phantom 9.
You also didn't list your maneuvers, other than Maneuveríng Attack. Maneuvering is pretty good on a Rogue (you can use it to move despite using Steady Aim), but what are your other two? Did you take Precision and Menacing for maxing out your personal contributions, especially with Sharpshooter?
Generically speaking, of the two options you listed, my automatic recommendation is to avoid Ranger, because I refuse to deliberately make a build that stops on a level where the multiclassing rules nerf your spell slot progression (which is what would happen here - you'd lose 1 level of slot progression relative to what 3 Ranger levels should get you). But if it's possible for you to reach Rogue 9, that's where Phantom becomes a subclass really worth discussing.
As for your AC, it might be too late if you already have Crossbow Expert, but Cunning Action can go a long way towards keeping you safe, if you stay hidden - and as a bonus, this will legalize Sneak Attack without relying on party members being in melee with the target. If you're only making 1 attack per round - so no Extra Attack and no Crossbow Expert - you can also fight like Blackbeard did in the real world, and just keep drawing weapons you loaded before the battle. I haven't played Avernus, but I assume you have some access to weapon shops.
Multiclassing is generally discouraged outside of a 1 or 2 level dip, for practical reason, but as long as you are enjoying your character, then you're doing good.
Rogues shine with singular precision strikes (Sneak Attack), whereas Fighters are known for their ability to unleash a volley of attacks. This tends to mean that the two styles will eventually conflict more often than not.
Clerics are a popular dip, and probably add decent value for an Avernus campaign, but a lot of their strength comes from being Full Casters and their Channel Divinity Feature. Since most martial classes do not gain spell casting, a lot of the benefit is wasted.
Rangers are reportedly the class with the least player satisfaction. They are perfectly capable, but I think they tend not to have as many opportunities to show off.
If you are mostly invested in a single class at this stage, I'd suggest figuring out its strength and doubling down on whatever that is. (An 11th level Fighter with a magic weapon like the Dragon Slayer gets to add the +3d6 damage to all 3 Attacks. With Action Surge, that's up to +18d6 bonus damage in a single turn.)
However, if you are already split between two or more classes, then it may not be practical to bank on those higher level features.
As for my recommendations based on your options:
I'd definitely pass on Quatra-classing, so my vote is for +1 Rogue | +2 Fighter, though I'd leave +3 Rogue and +3 Fighter on the table.
So, the original plan was to go up to 20 by doing some other stuff after Avernus. At that point I had planned on hitting 9 on Phantom. But then the friends I'm playing with started talking like once the campaign was done we were going to roll into something else, so I wanted to revamp the build. Had a known from the start I likely would've gone Scout or Trickster. The floating proficiency from Whispers has been a HUGE save though with some of the requirements down in Avernus (avoiding spoilers). Still, would love to go back and grab a different sub there, but it is what it is.
Like I said, at this point I'm not trying to optimize damage, just fun. The maneuvers I took are Menacing, Maneuvering, and with the number of times party members have been picked up and flown off (none of the casters has Feather Fall), I was contemplating Tripping Attack. I have a pretty solid to hit, plus the Cleric and I both have Bless. So with Emboldening Bond and Bless that's a 1d20+2d4+7 for my to hit when we're up against something hairy (that's with the -5 already factored in).
Yeah, the AC isn't a huge issue, just definitely a nice to have. I mostly stay out of the way with the massive range and just properly placing myself. I've just been caught twice due to one of our other players being kind of impatient. I definitely see y'all's points with the quadra classing. I mainly grabbed Peace for the Bond, because I tend to have REALLY bad luck on rolling.
Gotcha. Yeah, I had planned more levels in Rogue then the single dip to Cleric to make up for my historically terrible rolling, but the plan changed so I've had to make amendments. Still doing really solid damage and have a ton of utility outside of combat--the floating proficiency has made moving around Avernus a million times easier.
Sweet. Thanks for the breakdown. I'm definitely going to toss the Ranger dip based on y'all's recommendations.
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Hey all!
I'm still super new to the game, and am currently playing Avernus with some friends. Our group is 4 players: Druid (Moon), Cleric (Grave), Bard (Whispers)/Warlock (Hexblade), and my character. Right now we're level 7, and I have my levels planned out until about 10 but could use some help deciding a direction for the remaining 3 levels (I was told Avernus generally goes to level 13).
So, when we started the campaign my friends (more experienced than me) worried we might not have a lot of damage, so I kind of went ham making sure I could make up for it. I was worried it would make the character boring, but it's been a blast to play so far. Here's the build:
STR - 14 | DEX - 20 | CON - 16 | INT - 13 | WIS - 15 | CHA - 13
(We rolled stats and I got extremely solid rolls.)
Custom Lineage
Rogue (Phantom) 4 | Cleric (Peace) | Fighter 5 (Battle Master)
Feats: Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter, Piercer (DEX)
In case theme matters in your suggestions, I essentially flavored it so that Emboldening Bond, Wails from the Grave, and maneuvers like Maneuvering Strike are him manipulating the ethereal strings that connect him to all living things. He also started the campaign as overly cautious and wanting to get as much information as he could before going in, but slowly is becoming a more decisive as the levels go by. Next level he'll be getting his maneuvers which I think is when he'll really be showing that change from looking to others for direction and wanting to be careful to leading and being more decisive.
For those last three levels I have two options I'm mulling over (feel free to suggest others, though, if you think they'd be fun):
Option One:
+1 Rogue | +2 Fighter
This would give me +1d6 more on Sneak Attack and another 1d6 on Wails from the Grave. It would also give me Uncanny Dodge. I've only been caught out 1 or 2 times, but both times I got absolutely hammered, even with my 17 AC.
The two fighter levels would give me 2 more maneuvers and an ASI/Feat that I would like to use on Fey Touched (WIS), grabbing Hunter's Mark, Misty Step, and cleaning up that 15 WIS. Alert and Ritual Caster (no one in our group has Identify and having a Familiar would be bomb) are also options I'm contemplating here. It would also give me Know Your Enemy to gain info on possible enemies we can stake out for a minute.
Option Two:
+3 Ranger (Gloom Stalker)
I don't think I need to go over everything this would give me, but I'd probably pick up Fiend as Favored Enemy, Infernal, and Desert as Favored Terrain due to the wording for those features (I'm assuming Avernus is considered a desert, but I have no clue). I'd also likely snag the Defense Fighting Style for the +1 AC, as I don't really use melee weapons and already have Archery from Fighter levels. For spells, likely would go with Hunter's Mark and grab some more utility like Alarm.
Really just looking for some feedback. I think either of these would be fun choices for me, but one isn't really jumping out to me as a clear choice. Luckily I rolled super well on my stats, so if you think a different dip (or just going straight Fighter or Rogue or even Cleric) would be more fun, I'm definitely open to the suggestions.
We talked about likely continuing the campaign after Avernus, but I'm going to assume we end at the end of the campaign for now.
Pre-emptive thanks for any help/feedback!
Phantoms don't get really good until Rogue 9, so I'm reasonably shocked you're so willing to give up on Rogue levels. With only the L3 Phantom abilities, you have.... 1 dynamic skill proficiency and 2 for now, 3 later uses per day of Wails. That's pretty terrible compared to Phantom 9.
You also didn't list your maneuvers, other than Maneuveríng Attack. Maneuvering is pretty good on a Rogue (you can use it to move despite using Steady Aim), but what are your other two? Did you take Precision and Menacing for maxing out your personal contributions, especially with Sharpshooter?
Generically speaking, of the two options you listed, my automatic recommendation is to avoid Ranger, because I refuse to deliberately make a build that stops on a level where the multiclassing rules nerf your spell slot progression (which is what would happen here - you'd lose 1 level of slot progression relative to what 3 Ranger levels should get you). But if it's possible for you to reach Rogue 9, that's where Phantom becomes a subclass really worth discussing.
As for your AC, it might be too late if you already have Crossbow Expert, but Cunning Action can go a long way towards keeping you safe, if you stay hidden - and as a bonus, this will legalize Sneak Attack without relying on party members being in melee with the target. If you're only making 1 attack per round - so no Extra Attack and no Crossbow Expert - you can also fight like Blackbeard did in the real world, and just keep drawing weapons you loaded before the battle. I haven't played Avernus, but I assume you have some access to weapon shops.
What is your current level 7 build?
Multiclassing is generally discouraged outside of a 1 or 2 level dip, for practical reason, but as long as you are enjoying your character, then you're doing good.
Rogues shine with singular precision strikes (Sneak Attack), whereas Fighters are known for their ability to unleash a volley of attacks. This tends to mean that the two styles will eventually conflict more often than not.
Clerics are a popular dip, and probably add decent value for an Avernus campaign, but a lot of their strength comes from being Full Casters and their Channel Divinity Feature. Since most martial classes do not gain spell casting, a lot of the benefit is wasted.
Rangers are reportedly the class with the least player satisfaction. They are perfectly capable, but I think they tend not to have as many opportunities to show off.
If you are mostly invested in a single class at this stage, I'd suggest figuring out its strength and doubling down on whatever that is. (An 11th level Fighter with a magic weapon like the Dragon Slayer gets to add the +3d6 damage to all 3 Attacks. With Action Surge, that's up to +18d6 bonus damage in a single turn.)
However, if you are already split between two or more classes, then it may not be practical to bank on those higher level features.
As for my recommendations based on your options:
I'd definitely pass on Quatra-classing, so my vote is for +1 Rogue | +2 Fighter, though I'd leave +3 Rogue and +3 Fighter on the table.
So, the original plan was to go up to 20 by doing some other stuff after Avernus. At that point I had planned on hitting 9 on Phantom. But then the friends I'm playing with started talking like once the campaign was done we were going to roll into something else, so I wanted to revamp the build. Had a known from the start I likely would've gone Scout or Trickster. The floating proficiency from Whispers has been a HUGE save though with some of the requirements down in Avernus (avoiding spoilers). Still, would love to go back and grab a different sub there, but it is what it is.
Like I said, at this point I'm not trying to optimize damage, just fun. The maneuvers I took are Menacing, Maneuvering, and with the number of times party members have been picked up and flown off (none of the casters has Feather Fall), I was contemplating Tripping Attack. I have a pretty solid to hit, plus the Cleric and I both have Bless. So with Emboldening Bond and Bless that's a 1d20+2d4+7 for my to hit when we're up against something hairy (that's with the -5 already factored in).
Yeah, the AC isn't a huge issue, just definitely a nice to have. I mostly stay out of the way with the massive range and just properly placing myself. I've just been caught twice due to one of our other players being kind of impatient. I definitely see y'all's points with the quadra classing. I mainly grabbed Peace for the Bond, because I tend to have REALLY bad luck on rolling.
Really good feedback, man. Really appreciate it.
Gotcha. Yeah, I had planned more levels in Rogue then the single dip to Cleric to make up for my historically terrible rolling, but the plan changed so I've had to make amendments. Still doing really solid damage and have a ton of utility outside of combat--the floating proficiency has made moving around Avernus a million times easier.
Sweet. Thanks for the breakdown. I'm definitely going to toss the Ranger dip based on y'all's recommendations.