Currently, I am playing a Forge cleric, I am a warforged. I have 11 levels of forge cleric and 2 levels of divination wizard. my normal ac with my +2 shield is 24, with shield of faith that is 26. and with the shield spell it can be 31. My original goal was to be a good tank and party buff. recently though, our barbarian and wizard have left the group due to scheduling conflict. it has caused me to get more creative.... and holy cow. i didn't realize how strong this build is. any fun suggestions as to what i can do?? my main wizard spells are magic missile, shield, and absorb elements.
(fun side note. with artisans blessing i made adamantine bars over time equal to 65 pounds. that's the weight of plate armor. then used fabricate to make adamantine plate)
High AC can be great, but on its own, doesn't directly benefit the party in the same way that more damage or more healing or higher skill bonuses from your character would. You get hit less, meaning you don't compete with the rest of the party for healing, so that can be a benefit... but if the DM just stops trying to attack you and focuses on the rest of the party, then what you've really accomplished is the opposite of tanking, so you need some ways to ensure that you continue to play a meaningful role as a target.
Some options:
Provoke opportunity attacks intentionally from enemies that another member may need to move away from. Still dependent on DM buy-in, but most monsters should reactively take the opportunities they're presented with instead of banking them for the possibility your ally will also provoke one later in the round...
Move to tactically advantageous positions (like into the enemy's back line to threaten their caster, or to stand in choke points that block enemy movement) without worrying about the Opportunity Attacks you'll provoke. 5E does make a body in a square exert hard control on how enemies can move through that square, so even if you're a ranged caster, standing in a door way can be a game changer.
Concentrate on spells that buff the party, debuff the enemy, or provide AOE effects on the battlefield. A lot of DMs will try to focus down a Bless or a Web, recognizing that it's easier to force a few repeated Concentration saves until you fail than it is to have the monsters avoid or save against the effect directly, or deal with accuracy-boosted players. If your DM can't realistically hit you, then they can't realistically break your Concentration, meaning your party can shape the battle with more certainty.
Grapple dangerous opponents. Grappling doesn't stop you from doing your usual casting, other than the round it takes to get the grapple in place. By grabbing the enemy's most dangerous combatant, and forcing them to be in melee with you and only you, you can enforce being the target of attacks that your DM might otherwise not choose to make against your AC 31.
Share damage with allies, such as with [that one spell whose name I forget]. You can let your HP go far lower than others safely can, if there's no realistic chance you're going to get finished off with a stray blow, so while [that one spell whose name I forget] normally doesn't do much to reduce damage, just spread it around, damage that's stacked on you kind of isn't real damage?
It's a high AC, but considering what a party of that level would be fighting it's not OP. When monsters have +11 to hit or higher you'll still get hit enough to deplete the shield spell slots. Plus, high AC doesn't help for the high DC saving throws you'll run into. (Assuming your DM throws a good mix of tier 3 enemies at the party)
It's a high AC, but considering what a party of that level would be fighting it's not OP. When monsters have +11 to hit or higher you'll still get hit enough to deplete the shield spell slots. Plus, high AC doesn't help for the high DC saving throws you'll run into. (Assuming your DM throws a good mix of tier 3 enemies at the party)
He does throw some good Saving throw enemies. but i usually banish or curse them with a portant. XD
Yeah, it *can* be overpowering if your DM is taking it easy on you. If you’re only taking on one or two big battles per long rest, drawing all of the attacks, etc it can definitely feel like it’s OP.
As a DM, at 8+ levels the kid gloves are off. When the enemy figures out you’re unhittable they switch to easier targets, focus on saves vs spells instead of attack rolls, etc.
Portents are less powerful as you have more combats per long rest, spell slots become scarce, and good ol’ counterspell ruins your Shield castings.
Yeah, it *can* be overpowering if your DM is taking it easy on you. If you’re only taking on one or two big battles per long rest, drawing all of the attacks, etc it can definitely feel like it’s OP.
As a DM, at 8+ levels the kid gloves are off. When the enemy figures out you’re unhittable they switch to easier targets, focus on saves vs spells instead of attack rolls, etc.
Portents are less powerful as you have more combats per long rest, spell slots become scarce, and good ol’ counterspell ruins your Shield castings.
But enjoy it while you can 🙂 it’s a lot of fun!
Haha. yeah i get thwarted often. but when that happens i swap to melee. cleric smites are pretty strong in long fights to conserve spells
You've built yourself into being really tanky which is great for personal survival, and you have some utility. However, at your level, high plus to hit (+11 or more) isn't uncommon, so even with Shield you should still be getting whacked every other attack. You're also having to concentrate on Shield of Faith, rather than using other far more useful buffs (Bless is almost always a better choice).
It's certainly useful to have a really high AC. I recently did something similar playing an Eldritch Knight and I had a lot of fun.
The real way to take advantage of high AC is to take the Sentinel feat so that you can wade in and lock something down so that it has no option but to throw attacks into your high AC. If you can get Booming Blade as well then you can punish enemies even more for trying to get away from you.
You aren't going to be as effective as a tank as a barbarian, since resistance is way more useful than AC however you look at it, but it's a fun character design.
You've built yourself into being really tanky which is great for personal survival, and you have some utility. However, at your level, high plus to hit (+11 or more) isn't uncommon, so even with Shield you should still be getting whacked every other attack. You're also having to concentrate on Shield of Faith, rather than using other far more useful buffs (Bless is almost always a better choice).
It's certainly useful to have a really high AC. I recently did something similar playing an Eldritch Knight and I had a lot of fun.
The real way to take advantage of high AC is to take the Sentinel feat so that you can wade in and lock something down so that it has no option but to throw attacks into your high AC. If you can get Booming Blade as well then you can punish enemies even more for trying to get away from you.
You aren't going to be as effective as a tank as a barbarian, since resistance is way more useful than AC however you look at it, but it's a fun character design.
Shield of Faith is such a bad choice for concentration. You're correct about Bless being better, but I'd say that Spirit Guardians or Heat Metal are often the better choice for the easy combats - Heat Metal against a single target in armor, Spirit Guardians against a swarm of melee enemies.
If it's a small number of enemies, Bane is so much better than Shield of Faith. Not only is subtracting a D4 an average of a 2.5 decrease whereas Shield of Faith is only an increase of 2 to your AC, but Bane also has the extra effect of giving them a penalty on saving throws (if you have other spellcasters in the party, they'll love this). While Shield of Faith gives you an AC boost against everyone that attacks you, whereas Bane will only give it to 3 guys (unless you upcast it, and unless some of them succeed their saving throws, although Charisma saving throws tend to be quite difficult for most enemies), but Bane will also give them the 2.5 average penalty to attacks rolls when they attack your teammates, whereas Shield of Faith only protects you. If you're trying to be tanky, you need to give enemies a reason to attack you. Concentrating on Shield of Faith does the opposite of that, whereas Bane does a good job making enemies more likely to attack you.
TLDR: Heat Metal, Bane, and Spirit Guardians (depending on the number of enemies) are much better choices for being tanky than Shield of Faith.
For the difficult combats, a 13th level full spellcaster Cleric/Wizard should usually be concentrating on a higher level spell, and not a lower level spell like Shield of Faith. Bane is one of the rare exceptions to this, if you're pairing it with spells like Bestow Curse or Contagion. Heat Metal is also an exception because it bypasses legendary resistances (it's very situational, but it's fantastic against melee enemies that are wearing heavy armor or carrying a powerful magical weapon). Bless can also somewhat be an exception, because the extra D4 to saving throws helps spellcasters maintain concentration, and the extra D4 on attacks is still quite useful to your martial classes. Still, it's hard to justify a 13th level full spellcaster concentrating on a 1st or 2nd level spell during the biggest fights of the day. There are so many good 5th, 6th, and 7th level spells out there. Especially for Clerics.
Banishment can be hard to use because you have to judge whether or not the enemy has legendary resistances. Even with Portent, an enemy with legendary resistances can resist your Banishment attempts. If you're level 13, your DM better be throwing enemies with legendary resistances at you, otherwise your DM is doing a horrible job.
One of the great things about Bane is that a DM will almost always save the legendary resistances for the brutal spells and not waste a legendary resistance against Bane. One of the great things about both Bane and Banishment is that they're Charisma saves, and enemies are far less likely to have great boosts to Charisma saves as they are to have fantastic boosts to their Constitution and Wisdom saving throws. Bane will increase their chances of failing saving throws against other spells, and increase how quickly you're able to make them use up all of their legendary saving throws and actually be able to use your high level spells without running into a legendary saving throw when they actually do fail their saving throw. By level 13, you really gotta watch out for those legendary saves during the big battles.
Having high AC is extremely common, many players enjoy playing that way. Having access to 4th, 5th, and 6th level spells as an 13th level spellcaster is standard (actually, standard is also having access to 7th levels spells). Combining these two in one character is nice, but it's also fairly common and far from OP. When you're level 13, you're supposed to be quite powerful. You're in tier 3. You're going to be much more powerful than you were at level 3 or level 7. But in answering the question "Am I OP" he needs to compare himself to other level 13 characters, and not to level 3 or level 7 characters.
The main problem with his playstyle is that he hasn't figured out a good way to generate threat. You've got a good idea about Sentinel or Booming Blade as a way to generate threat. I think learning to better choose which spells to use will be more important for helping him to generate the threat necessary to be a better tank. I think that he's beginning to realize the potential in his higher level spells, although he's still held back by liking his go-to 1st level spells too much (especially Magic Missile - a first level Magic missile does less damage than a cantrip or a melee weapon attack). But as he better learns to utilize his higher level spells, his character will do a better job at becoming as powerful as a 13th level character is supposed to be.
You've built yourself into being really tanky which is great for personal survival, and you have some utility. However, at your level, high plus to hit (+11 or more) isn't uncommon, so even with Shield you should still be getting whacked every other attack. You're also having to concentrate on Shield of Faith, rather than using other far more useful buffs (Bless is almost always a better choice).
It's certainly useful to have a really high AC. I recently did something similar playing an Eldritch Knight and I had a lot of fun.
The real way to take advantage of high AC is to take the Sentinel feat so that you can wade in and lock something down so that it has no option but to throw attacks into your high AC. If you can get Booming Blade as well then you can punish enemies even more for trying to get away from you.
You aren't going to be as effective as a tank as a barbarian, since resistance is way more useful than AC however you look at it, but it's a fun character design.
Shield of Faith is such a bad choice for concentration. You're correct about Bless being better, but I'd say that Spirit Guardians or Heat Metal are often the better choice for the easy combats - Heat Metal against a single target in armor, Spirit Guardians against a swarm of melee enemies.
If it's a small number of enemies, Bane is so much better than Shield of Faith. Not only is subtracting a D4 an average of a 2.5 decrease whereas Shield of Faith is only an increase of 2 to your AC, but Bane also has the extra effect of giving them a penalty on saving throws (if you have other spellcasters in the party, they'll love this). While Shield of Faith gives you an AC boost against everyone that attacks you, whereas Bane will only give it to 3 guys (unless you upcast it, and unless some of them succeed their saving throws, although Charisma saving throws tend to be quite difficult for most enemies), but Bane will also give them the 2.5 average penalty to attacks rolls when they attack your teammates, whereas Shield of Faith only protects you. If you're trying to be tanky, you need to give enemies a reason to attack you. Concentrating on Shield of Faith does the opposite of that, whereas Bane does a good job making enemies more likely to attack you.
TLDR: Heat Metal, Bane, and Spirit Guardians (depending on the number of enemies) are much better choices for being tanky than Shield of Faith.
For the difficult combats, a 13th level full spellcaster Cleric/Wizard should usually be concentrating on a higher level spell, and not a lower level spell like Shield of Faith. Bane is one of the rare exceptions to this, if you're pairing it with spells like Bestow Curse or Contagion. Heat Metal is also an exception because it bypasses legendary resistances (it's very situational, but it's fantastic against melee enemies that are wearing heavy armor or carrying a powerful magical weapon). Bless can also somewhat be an exception, because the extra D4 to saving throws helps spellcasters maintain concentration, and the extra D4 on attacks is still quite useful to your martial classes. Still, it's hard to justify a 13th level full spellcaster concentrating on a 1st or 2nd level spell during the biggest fights of the day. There are so many good 5th, 6th, and 7th level spells out there. Especially for Clerics.
Banishment can be hard to use because you have to judge whether or not the enemy has legendary resistances. Even with Portent, an enemy with legendary resistances can resist your Banishment attempts. If you're level 13, your DM better be throwing enemies with legendary resistances at you, otherwise your DM is doing a horrible job.
One of the great things about Bane is that a DM will almost always save the legendary resistances for the brutal spells and not waste a legendary resistance against Bane. One of the great things about both Bane and Banishment is that they're Charisma saves, and enemies are far less likely to have great boosts to Charisma saves as they are to have fantastic boosts to their Constitution and Wisdom saving throws. Bane will increase their chances of failing saving throws against other spells, and increase how quickly you're able to make them use up all of their legendary saving throws and actually be able to use your high level spells without running into a legendary saving throw when they actually do fail their saving throw. By level 13, you really gotta watch out for those legendary saves during the big battles.
Having high AC is extremely common, many players enjoy playing that way. Having access to 4th, 5th, and 6th level spells as an 13th level spellcaster is standard (actually, standard is also having access to 7th levels spells). Combining these two in one character is nice, but it's also fairly common and far from OP. When you're level 13, you're supposed to be quite powerful. You're in tier 3. You're going to be much more powerful than you were at level 3 or level 7. But in answering the question "Am I OP" he needs to compare himself to other level 13 characters, and not to level 3 or level 7 characters.
The main problem with his playstyle is that he hasn't figured out a good way to generate threat. You've got a good idea about Sentinel or Booming Blade as a way to generate threat. I think learning to better choose which spells to use will be more important for helping him to generate the threat necessary to be a better tank. I think that he's beginning to realize the potential in his higher level spells, although he's still held back by liking his go-to 1st level spells too much (especially Magic Missile - a first level Magic missile does less damage than a cantrip or a melee weapon attack). But as he better learns to utilize his higher level spells, his character will do a better job at becoming as powerful as a 13th level character is supposed to be.
I agree. usually shield of faith is for the lower tier fights. but now that we have 2 new players i don't have to be the tank anymore and will for sure use bless in the lower fights.
In our last big battle. I had a 6th level spiritual weapon and spirit guardians up. I cursed the big bad's pet that was gargantuan sized and wreaking havoc on us. used a portant to do that. I used a level 5 slot to make it not require concentration. and it wasn't too good at wisdom saves to claim its turn.
Ever now and then we do some 1v1 for fun. not in game. just to try and out think each-other. so far i am undefeated. hence the question, Am I OP.
I think if you have 2 new players in the party, it might just be that you're comparing your level 13 character that you're familiar with to the level 13 characters made by new players that aren't as familiar with the game or with their characters' abilities. If these are D&D veterans that are just new to your D&D game and they're much weaker than you, a better question might be to look at why they seem so weak compared to your character. But if they're new to D&D, then the answer is just that your character is more powerful because you're more familiar with the game than they are.
It sounds like your character is a fairly typical level 13 character that was slightly weakened by multiclassing, but strengthened by the synergy of Warforged and Forge Cleric for tankiness. In general, Warforged tend to be a very powerful race, and they do synergize well with Forge Cleric if you want to be tanky.
I think if you have 2 new players in the party, it might just be that you're comparing your level 13 character that you're familiar with to the level 13 characters made by new players that aren't as familiar with the game or with their characters' abilities. If these are D&D veterans that are just new to your D&D game and they're much weaker than you, a better question might be to look at why they seem so weak compared to your character. But if they're new to D&D, then the answer is just that your character is more powerful because you're more familiar with the game than they are.
It sounds like your character is a fairly typical level 13 character that was slightly weakened by multiclassing, but strengthened by the synergy of Warforged and Forge Cleric for tankiness. In general, Warforged tend to be a very powerful race, and they do synergize well with Forge Cleric if you want to be tanky.
most are more experienced than me. its mostly my use of portents and long with bestow curse and banishment that make me strong. at least that's wat i think. when i fight the others that's usually what it comes down to.
Currently, I am playing a Forge cleric, I am a warforged. I have 11 levels of forge cleric and 2 levels of divination wizard. my normal ac with my +2 shield is 24, with shield of faith that is 26. and with the shield spell it can be 31. My original goal was to be a good tank and party buff. recently though, our barbarian and wizard have left the group due to scheduling conflict. it has caused me to get more creative.... and holy cow. i didn't realize how strong this build is. any fun suggestions as to what i can do?? my main wizard spells are magic missile, shield, and absorb elements.
(fun side note. with artisans blessing i made adamantine bars over time equal to 65 pounds. that's the weight of plate armor. then used fabricate to make adamantine plate)
High AC can be great, but on its own, doesn't directly benefit the party in the same way that more damage or more healing or higher skill bonuses from your character would. You get hit less, meaning you don't compete with the rest of the party for healing, so that can be a benefit... but if the DM just stops trying to attack you and focuses on the rest of the party, then what you've really accomplished is the opposite of tanking, so you need some ways to ensure that you continue to play a meaningful role as a target.
Some options:
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
It's a high AC, but considering what a party of that level would be fighting it's not OP. When monsters have +11 to hit or higher you'll still get hit enough to deplete the shield spell slots. Plus, high AC doesn't help for the high DC saving throws you'll run into. (Assuming your DM throws a good mix of tier 3 enemies at the party)
He does throw some good Saving throw enemies. but i usually banish or curse them with a portant. XD
Other than having high AC and first level spells, you haven't said how your character is OP.
Ye hi
I am able to curse opponents without concentration at almost a guarantee with portant as well as banish.
Okay, those are things you can only do once or twice per day. How many encounters is your GM throwing at you in a typical day?
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Yeah, it *can* be overpowering if your DM is taking it easy on you. If you’re only taking on one or two big battles per long rest, drawing all of the attacks, etc it can definitely feel like it’s OP.
As a DM, at 8+ levels the kid gloves are off. When the enemy figures out you’re unhittable they switch to easier targets, focus on saves vs spells instead of attack rolls, etc.
Portents are less powerful as you have more combats per long rest, spell slots become scarce, and good ol’ counterspell ruins your Shield castings.
But enjoy it while you can 🙂 it’s a lot of fun!
Haha. yeah i get thwarted often. but when that happens i swap to melee. cleric smites are pretty strong in long fights to conserve spells
You've built yourself into being really tanky which is great for personal survival, and you have some utility. However, at your level, high plus to hit (+11 or more) isn't uncommon, so even with Shield you should still be getting whacked every other attack. You're also having to concentrate on Shield of Faith, rather than using other far more useful buffs (Bless is almost always a better choice).
It's certainly useful to have a really high AC. I recently did something similar playing an Eldritch Knight and I had a lot of fun.
The real way to take advantage of high AC is to take the Sentinel feat so that you can wade in and lock something down so that it has no option but to throw attacks into your high AC. If you can get Booming Blade as well then you can punish enemies even more for trying to get away from you.
You aren't going to be as effective as a tank as a barbarian, since resistance is way more useful than AC however you look at it, but it's a fun character design.
Shield of Faith is such a bad choice for concentration. You're correct about Bless being better, but I'd say that Spirit Guardians or Heat Metal are often the better choice for the easy combats - Heat Metal against a single target in armor, Spirit Guardians against a swarm of melee enemies.
If it's a small number of enemies, Bane is so much better than Shield of Faith. Not only is subtracting a D4 an average of a 2.5 decrease whereas Shield of Faith is only an increase of 2 to your AC, but Bane also has the extra effect of giving them a penalty on saving throws (if you have other spellcasters in the party, they'll love this). While Shield of Faith gives you an AC boost against everyone that attacks you, whereas Bane will only give it to 3 guys (unless you upcast it, and unless some of them succeed their saving throws, although Charisma saving throws tend to be quite difficult for most enemies), but Bane will also give them the 2.5 average penalty to attacks rolls when they attack your teammates, whereas Shield of Faith only protects you. If you're trying to be tanky, you need to give enemies a reason to attack you. Concentrating on Shield of Faith does the opposite of that, whereas Bane does a good job making enemies more likely to attack you.
TLDR: Heat Metal, Bane, and Spirit Guardians (depending on the number of enemies) are much better choices for being tanky than Shield of Faith.
For the difficult combats, a 13th level full spellcaster Cleric/Wizard should usually be concentrating on a higher level spell, and not a lower level spell like Shield of Faith. Bane is one of the rare exceptions to this, if you're pairing it with spells like Bestow Curse or Contagion. Heat Metal is also an exception because it bypasses legendary resistances (it's very situational, but it's fantastic against melee enemies that are wearing heavy armor or carrying a powerful magical weapon). Bless can also somewhat be an exception, because the extra D4 to saving throws helps spellcasters maintain concentration, and the extra D4 on attacks is still quite useful to your martial classes. Still, it's hard to justify a 13th level full spellcaster concentrating on a 1st or 2nd level spell during the biggest fights of the day. There are so many good 5th, 6th, and 7th level spells out there. Especially for Clerics.
Banishment can be hard to use because you have to judge whether or not the enemy has legendary resistances. Even with Portent, an enemy with legendary resistances can resist your Banishment attempts. If you're level 13, your DM better be throwing enemies with legendary resistances at you, otherwise your DM is doing a horrible job.
One of the great things about Bane is that a DM will almost always save the legendary resistances for the brutal spells and not waste a legendary resistance against Bane. One of the great things about both Bane and Banishment is that they're Charisma saves, and enemies are far less likely to have great boosts to Charisma saves as they are to have fantastic boosts to their Constitution and Wisdom saving throws. Bane will increase their chances of failing saving throws against other spells, and increase how quickly you're able to make them use up all of their legendary saving throws and actually be able to use your high level spells without running into a legendary saving throw when they actually do fail their saving throw. By level 13, you really gotta watch out for those legendary saves during the big battles.
Having high AC is extremely common, many players enjoy playing that way. Having access to 4th, 5th, and 6th level spells as an 13th level spellcaster is standard (actually, standard is also having access to 7th levels spells). Combining these two in one character is nice, but it's also fairly common and far from OP. When you're level 13, you're supposed to be quite powerful. You're in tier 3. You're going to be much more powerful than you were at level 3 or level 7. But in answering the question "Am I OP" he needs to compare himself to other level 13 characters, and not to level 3 or level 7 characters.
The main problem with his playstyle is that he hasn't figured out a good way to generate threat. You've got a good idea about Sentinel or Booming Blade as a way to generate threat. I think learning to better choose which spells to use will be more important for helping him to generate the threat necessary to be a better tank. I think that he's beginning to realize the potential in his higher level spells, although he's still held back by liking his go-to 1st level spells too much (especially Magic Missile - a first level Magic missile does less damage than a cantrip or a melee weapon attack). But as he better learns to utilize his higher level spells, his character will do a better job at becoming as powerful as a 13th level character is supposed to be.
I agree. usually shield of faith is for the lower tier fights. but now that we have 2 new players i don't have to be the tank anymore and will for sure use bless in the lower fights.
In our last big battle. I had a 6th level spiritual weapon and spirit guardians up. I cursed the big bad's pet that was gargantuan sized and wreaking havoc on us. used a portant to do that. I used a level 5 slot to make it not require concentration. and it wasn't too good at wisdom saves to claim its turn.
Ever now and then we do some 1v1 for fun. not in game. just to try and out think each-other. so far i am undefeated. hence the question, Am I OP.
I think if you have 2 new players in the party, it might just be that you're comparing your level 13 character that you're familiar with to the level 13 characters made by new players that aren't as familiar with the game or with their characters' abilities. If these are D&D veterans that are just new to your D&D game and they're much weaker than you, a better question might be to look at why they seem so weak compared to your character. But if they're new to D&D, then the answer is just that your character is more powerful because you're more familiar with the game than they are.
It sounds like your character is a fairly typical level 13 character that was slightly weakened by multiclassing, but strengthened by the synergy of Warforged and Forge Cleric for tankiness. In general, Warforged tend to be a very powerful race, and they do synergize well with Forge Cleric if you want to be tanky.
most are more experienced than me. its mostly my use of portents and long with bestow curse and banishment that make me strong. at least that's wat i think. when i fight the others that's usually what it comes down to.
Based on your responses to these comments, it seems your original post is meant to read, "Look I think I'm OP," vs "Am I OP?"