I an wondering what the general feeling is about the benefits of multiclass dips versus the penalty on ASIs? I've always felt that a dip, especially a two or three level dip, imposes a pretty big penalty on earning ASIs. Perhaps I am over valuing ASIs, but I am wondering how others feel? I get that some dips, like Hexblade, can be so front loaded that they are almost no-brainers but I wonder about others. A two or three level dip could mean, in a campaign that ends at tenth, losing out on half the character's ASIs, or at least delaying them to the very end of the campaign, which in turn means lower primary stats and/or limited access to important feats for the bulk of the campaign. Is that a price most would think is worth paying?
It really depends on the value of features the dip gives you, and how quickly those features come online.
Im of the opinion that putting off an ASI is perfectly fine outside of very hardcore campaigns, even if the dip doesn't double your damage output or something powerful like that. In general, a class and subclasses starting abilities are way stronger than what they get at 6-10.
Also, finding magic weapons/spell foci and using things that are always good like control spells mean that dipping isn't necessarily that punishing.
While an ASI is good, often what you get for a one or two level dip can make it worthwhile.
Here are the common dips. Each one grants more than a feat.
Wizard with Int of 20. If he takes a 1 level dip into Artificer, he gains +5 spells known, +2 cantrips. That includes the spells Faerie Fire and Cure Wounds. Lots of people would willing take a feat to get Faerie Fire, Cure Wounds and +5 spells known. Yes, you delay spell progression, but only for 1 level.
Warlock taking taking 1 level of Bard for 2 extra 1st level spell slots, 4 extra spells known (again, including Faerie Fire and Cure Wounds) , 2 cantrips and bardic inspiration.
Anyone taking 1 level of Cleric for their domain ability. A second level for the Channel Divinity.
Anyone taking 1wo levels of Druid for Wildshape and Subclass abilitiy
Anyone taking two levels of Fighter for Fighting Style, Second Wind, Action Surge. And if you take it first, you get better HP.
Druid or Cleric taking two levels of Paladin, for a smiter with Divine Sense and a Fighting Style. You even have more smites than a full Paladin.
Paladin, Bard,or Warlock taking 1 Level of Sorcerer for 4 cantrips, 2 spells known and a Sorcerer Origin power.
Sorcerer, Paladin, or Bard taking 2 level of Warlock for Eldritch Blast, an extra spell slot, 2 spells known, and 2 Invocation focused on Eldritch Blast.
Unfortunately (or some may even say fortunately), the answer to that question isn't straight forward. It really depends on many factors. ASI's are not as important in some situations as others (rolled stats vs point buy or standard array, difficulty level of campaign, party composition). All play a factor into how beneficial delaying an ASI for 1 or 2 levels to gain the flexibility/utility of a multiclass dip. Sometimes having more options available to you is more beneficial than being able to do what you already do just a little bit better.
My philosophy is to prioritize getting your main stat to 18 or more for reliability in what you want to do first. After that, make choices that flesh out your character "concept" and define who and what your character is second. Then finally boost those choices to be stronger at what you do. Dungeons and Dragons after all is about storytelling and role playing. I personally find that hopefully you'll spend more time playing/living as that character and less time worrying about the math behind it all. So, build your character and make level up choices that enhance the roleplaying aspects and weave those into the storytelling and you'll almost never be disappointed with the results. Just make sure you don't go too overboard and find yourself too far behind the "power curve" to the point where it's no fun (usually won't happen delaying something for a level or two).
Isn't that kind of the tradeoff? I mean, if multiclassing didn't come with some balanced downside wouldn't it be something everyone would do? You want Feats or better stats; don't multiclass.
I an wondering what the general feeling is about the benefits of multiclass dips versus the penalty on ASIs? I've always felt that a dip, especially a two or three level dip, imposes a pretty big penalty on earning ASIs. Perhaps I am over valuing ASIs, but I am wondering how others feel? I get that some dips, like Hexblade, can be so front loaded that they are almost no-brainers but I wonder about others. A two or three level dip could mean, in a campaign that ends at tenth, losing out on half the character's ASIs, or at least delaying them to the very end of the campaign, which in turn means lower primary stats and/or limited access to important feats for the bulk of the campaign. Is that a price most would think is worth paying?
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
You always have to consider your opportunity costs. If you go in knowing you're playing to level 10, you need to build around going to level 10. That can change everything. Decisions are never made in a vacuum. Most of the builds you see online will tell you when they "come online", so to speak - none of them are intended to be really played before that point. Same thing the other way: a build that isn't great until level 11 is a worthless build in a game that ends at 10, but fine in a game that starts at 11. Build for your campaign.
I will point out that unless your DM throws out the DMG CR guidelines and up-guns your enemies, there's a "hiccup" at level 9 where enemy AC lags a step behind average accuracy. As a result, using your ninth level to multiclass can be a particularly acceptable choice.
Multiclassing is designed to be generally not worth it. This is clearly intentional, and in my opinion a good design decision.
However, there are builds where multiclassing is worth it. Some people think that a multiclass is worthwhile when it adds things to your build that it doesn't have, filling in the gaps that you lack. That's fine with me, but I think what makes a multiclass really strong is when it "amplifies" or enhances your initial class. For example, hexadin, the most popular multiclass, is very strong because it gives you spell slots that recharge on short rest to fuel your smites. Also, it allows you to focus solely on char, which mitigates the slowdown in ASIS gain (and of course, you have some very interesting Eldritch Invocations).
So in my opinion you have to weigh what you gain against what you lose. You'll generally lose more than you win (especially on full casters, since you'll get the higher level spells later). However, on some builds (few, really, beyond the general feel), it's really worth multiclassing a level or two. If what multiclassing gives you makes you fit your role better, it might be worth slowing down your main progression (which includes the ASIS gain which is specifically what the OP is asking about, but also a lot of other things like access to spells higher). However, most classes already fulfill their role well, so in most cases, in my opinion, multiclassing is not mechanically worth it.
As others have implied it is not just ASIs that are delayed. For just about every class delaying level 5 of the main (usually for either a second attack or 3rd level spells) is a bigger impact than delaying level 4 or 8 for an ASI. I think the best thing to do when considering multiclassing is to look at what you gain and what you lose at each level and seeing for how much of the campaign the MC build is better (and by how much).
I an wondering what the general feeling is about the benefits of multiclass dips versus the penalty on ASIs? I've always felt that a dip, especially a two or three level dip, imposes a pretty big penalty on earning ASIs. Perhaps I am over valuing ASIs, but I am wondering how others feel? I get that some dips, like Hexblade, can be so front loaded that they are almost no-brainers but I wonder about others. A two or three level dip could mean, in a campaign that ends at tenth, losing out on half the character's ASIs, or at least delaying them to the very end of the campaign, which in turn means lower primary stats and/or limited access to important feats for the bulk of the campaign. Is that a price most would think is worth paying?
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
No, you are not. It's a major reason (but not the only reason) why most multi-class combos are not worth it. But some of them are. It's all about assessing what you gain verses what you lose.
You are not "losing" anything just delaying it. Losing an ASI would be by taking a Feat instead.
Regarding the campaign level limit, it's hard to say. How many games let you know upfront that the campaign will end at a given time. In addition, thinking and planning may change during the campaign itself. It is totally ok to look forward to things but during actual play choices can switch around.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
You are not "losing" anything just delaying it. Losing an ASI would be by taking a Feat instead.
Regarding the campaign level limit, it's hard to say. How many games let you know upfront that the campaign will end at a given time. In addition, thinking and planning may change during the campaign itself. It is totally ok to look forward to things but during actual play choices can switch around.
You can completely loose an ASI by multiclassing, depending on how you decide to split levels. If you go more than 1 level into a second class, but do not go a full 4, you will lose out on one ASI opportunity at 19th level. Also splits like 13/7 or things like that can often make you get less than the "standard" 5 ASI's for a character.
Even if you only are talking up to level 10 like the OP mentions, if one of your classes is Fighter or Rogue a 1, 2 or 3 level dip into something else will make you lose out on an ASI.
No, you are not. It's a major reason (but not the only reason) why most multi-class combos are not worth it. But some of them are. It's all about assessing what you gain verses what you lose.
The vast majority of builds don't need any ASIs at all past level 8, and those are generally done by level 12 - as in, past that, any ASIs you do get are getting spent on something you don't really care about and won't use. Exceptions exist, but they're not numerous.
No, you are not. It's a major reason (but not the only reason) why most multi-class combos are not worth it. But some of them are. It's all about assessing what you gain verses what you lose.
The vast majority of builds don't need any ASIs at all past level 8, and those are generally done by level 12 - as in, past that, any ASIs you do get are getting spent on something you don't really care about and won't use. Exceptions exist, but they're not numerous.
I disagree. At level 8 you're usually going to have your main stat at 20, which I assume is what you're referring to. But you still have secondary stats or feats to round out your build. However, ASIS is not the only drawback of multiclassing. There are other things from your main class that you either won't be able to get, or you'll get much later. The paradigmatic case of this is full casters, who are going to get their highest spells later. Or they will lose spell slots. Etc... There are a few multiclasses that work very well, that's true. But most builds work best in single class, as much as crazy multiclassing can be fun. In terms of efficiency, a single class is usually better at the same level.
No, you are not. It's a major reason (but not the only reason) why most multi-class combos are not worth it. But some of them are. It's all about assessing what you gain verses what you lose.
The vast majority of builds don't need any ASIs at all past level 8, and those are generally done by level 12 - as in, past that, any ASIs you do get are getting spent on something you don't really care about and won't use. Exceptions exist, but they're not numerous.
If you're doing a high level one-shot, or if you know you're going to be progressing to very high levels, that (may) change my assessment. It's not just about ASI's, but also whatever feats you want for your build. Again, I'm not saying dipping or outright multiclassing is never worth it (I sometimes MC myself). But those ASI's are a major consideration when you're evaluating a build decision.
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Hello All,
I an wondering what the general feeling is about the benefits of multiclass dips versus the penalty on ASIs? I've always felt that a dip, especially a two or three level dip, imposes a pretty big penalty on earning ASIs. Perhaps I am over valuing ASIs, but I am wondering how others feel? I get that some dips, like Hexblade, can be so front loaded that they are almost no-brainers but I wonder about others. A two or three level dip could mean, in a campaign that ends at tenth, losing out on half the character's ASIs, or at least delaying them to the very end of the campaign, which in turn means lower primary stats and/or limited access to important feats for the bulk of the campaign. Is that a price most would think is worth paying?
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
It really depends on the value of features the dip gives you, and how quickly those features come online.
Im of the opinion that putting off an ASI is perfectly fine outside of very hardcore campaigns, even if the dip doesn't double your damage output or something powerful like that. In general, a class and subclasses starting abilities are way stronger than what they get at 6-10.
Also, finding magic weapons/spell foci and using things that are always good like control spells mean that dipping isn't necessarily that punishing.
So whatever is fun, go for it.
While an ASI is good, often what you get for a one or two level dip can make it worthwhile.
Here are the common dips. Each one grants more than a feat.
Wizard with Int of 20. If he takes a 1 level dip into Artificer, he gains +5 spells known, +2 cantrips. That includes the spells Faerie Fire and Cure Wounds. Lots of people would willing take a feat to get Faerie Fire, Cure Wounds and +5 spells known. Yes, you delay spell progression, but only for 1 level.
Warlock taking taking 1 level of Bard for 2 extra 1st level spell slots, 4 extra spells known (again, including Faerie Fire and Cure Wounds) , 2 cantrips and bardic inspiration.
Anyone taking 1 level of Cleric for their domain ability. A second level for the Channel Divinity.
Anyone taking 1wo levels of Druid for Wildshape and Subclass abilitiy
Anyone taking two levels of Fighter for Fighting Style, Second Wind, Action Surge. And if you take it first, you get better HP.
Druid or Cleric taking two levels of Paladin, for a smiter with Divine Sense and a Fighting Style. You even have more smites than a full Paladin.
Paladin, Bard,or Warlock taking 1 Level of Sorcerer for 4 cantrips, 2 spells known and a Sorcerer Origin power.
Sorcerer, Paladin, or Bard taking 2 level of Warlock for Eldritch Blast, an extra spell slot, 2 spells known, and 2 Invocation focused on Eldritch Blast.
Unfortunately (or some may even say fortunately), the answer to that question isn't straight forward. It really depends on many factors. ASI's are not as important in some situations as others (rolled stats vs point buy or standard array, difficulty level of campaign, party composition). All play a factor into how beneficial delaying an ASI for 1 or 2 levels to gain the flexibility/utility of a multiclass dip. Sometimes having more options available to you is more beneficial than being able to do what you already do just a little bit better.
My philosophy is to prioritize getting your main stat to 18 or more for reliability in what you want to do first. After that, make choices that flesh out your character "concept" and define who and what your character is second. Then finally boost those choices to be stronger at what you do. Dungeons and Dragons after all is about storytelling and role playing. I personally find that hopefully you'll spend more time playing/living as that character and less time worrying about the math behind it all. So, build your character and make level up choices that enhance the roleplaying aspects and weave those into the storytelling and you'll almost never be disappointed with the results. Just make sure you don't go too overboard and find yourself too far behind the "power curve" to the point where it's no fun (usually won't happen delaying something for a level or two).
Isn't that kind of the tradeoff? I mean, if multiclassing didn't come with some balanced downside wouldn't it be something everyone would do? You want Feats or better stats; don't multiclass.
You always have to consider your opportunity costs. If you go in knowing you're playing to level 10, you need to build around going to level 10. That can change everything. Decisions are never made in a vacuum. Most of the builds you see online will tell you when they "come online", so to speak - none of them are intended to be really played before that point. Same thing the other way: a build that isn't great until level 11 is a worthless build in a game that ends at 10, but fine in a game that starts at 11. Build for your campaign.
I will point out that unless your DM throws out the DMG CR guidelines and up-guns your enemies, there's a "hiccup" at level 9 where enemy AC lags a step behind average accuracy. As a result, using your ninth level to multiclass can be a particularly acceptable choice.
Multiclassing is designed to be generally not worth it. This is clearly intentional, and in my opinion a good design decision.
However, there are builds where multiclassing is worth it. Some people think that a multiclass is worthwhile when it adds things to your build that it doesn't have, filling in the gaps that you lack. That's fine with me, but I think what makes a multiclass really strong is when it "amplifies" or enhances your initial class. For example, hexadin, the most popular multiclass, is very strong because it gives you spell slots that recharge on short rest to fuel your smites. Also, it allows you to focus solely on char, which mitigates the slowdown in ASIS gain (and of course, you have some very interesting Eldritch Invocations).
So in my opinion you have to weigh what you gain against what you lose. You'll generally lose more than you win (especially on full casters, since you'll get the higher level spells later). However, on some builds (few, really, beyond the general feel), it's really worth multiclassing a level or two. If what multiclassing gives you makes you fit your role better, it might be worth slowing down your main progression (which includes the ASIS gain which is specifically what the OP is asking about, but also a lot of other things like access to spells higher). However, most classes already fulfill their role well, so in most cases, in my opinion, multiclassing is not mechanically worth it.
As others have implied it is not just ASIs that are delayed. For just about every class delaying level 5 of the main (usually for either a second attack or 3rd level spells) is a bigger impact than delaying level 4 or 8 for an ASI. I think the best thing to do when considering multiclassing is to look at what you gain and what you lose at each level and seeing for how much of the campaign the MC build is better (and by how much).
No, you are not. It's a major reason (but not the only reason) why most multi-class combos are not worth it. But some of them are. It's all about assessing what you gain verses what you lose.
You are not "losing" anything just delaying it. Losing an ASI would be by taking a Feat instead.
Regarding the campaign level limit, it's hard to say. How many games let you know upfront that the campaign will end at a given time. In addition, thinking and planning may change during the campaign itself. It is totally ok to look forward to things but during actual play choices can switch around.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
You can completely loose an ASI by multiclassing, depending on how you decide to split levels. If you go more than 1 level into a second class, but do not go a full 4, you will lose out on one ASI opportunity at 19th level. Also splits like 13/7 or things like that can often make you get less than the "standard" 5 ASI's for a character.
Even if you only are talking up to level 10 like the OP mentions, if one of your classes is Fighter or Rogue a 1, 2 or 3 level dip into something else will make you lose out on an ASI.
The vast majority of builds don't need any ASIs at all past level 8, and those are generally done by level 12 - as in, past that, any ASIs you do get are getting spent on something you don't really care about and won't use. Exceptions exist, but they're not numerous.
I disagree. At level 8 you're usually going to have your main stat at 20, which I assume is what you're referring to. But you still have secondary stats or feats to round out your build.
However, ASIS is not the only drawback of multiclassing. There are other things from your main class that you either won't be able to get, or you'll get much later. The paradigmatic case of this is full casters, who are going to get their highest spells later. Or they will lose spell slots. Etc...
There are a few multiclasses that work very well, that's true. But most builds work best in single class, as much as crazy multiclassing can be fun. In terms of efficiency, a single class is usually better at the same level.
If you're doing a high level one-shot, or if you know you're going to be progressing to very high levels, that (may) change my assessment. It's not just about ASI's, but also whatever feats you want for your build. Again, I'm not saying dipping or outright multiclassing is never worth it (I sometimes MC myself). But those ASI's are a major consideration when you're evaluating a build decision.