I have been told by others that Whirlwind is a bad 'control' spell.
But after reading it and comparing to other 7th level spells, it looks pretty good.
As a Bonus Action, you move it and in a path 20 ft wide, 30 ft (starting at ground), 30 ft long, every round, they must save 10d6, save for 5d6. The restraint and throwing you up 5 ft are just an add on that we do not care about. It's a massive damaging spell.
10 rounds of attacks, Concentration, with a huge range (300 ft).
Compare with crown of stars - 7 missiles doing 4d12 or nothing. Granted, longer duration and no concentration.
I'd have to play with it in game, but it looks pretty effective for the right kind of encounter.
Reverse Gravity has a better area, and no save*. However, Whirlwind can move the affected targets laterally, which opens up a lot of possibilities. If the target succeeds on breaking themselves free, they are thrown up to 180ft in a random direction. This is very potent in terrains with environmental hazards, and can be combined with spells like Wall of Fire to grab enemies and bring them into the area of other damaging spells. Whirlwind is also better against Flying enemies than Reverse Gravity.
That said, as a spell for 13th+ level players, the limitation of "Large or smaller" is an issue. High CR small targets will probably have access to magic or other defensive options, while Huge+ targets will be able to ignore the "control" effect entirely.
Reverse Gravity also should not do much to a flying creature. They were already falling - with style so to speak. I can see a save negates and simply using up their entire movement next round to stay in the same place, if they fail their save. Whirlwind should still affect those that can fly.
Large or smaller is a real limit. Doesn't do much to the bigguns and vs a 7th level spell those kinds of things become common.
It’s the double edge of those big area spells, is what I’d imagine is the problem. Fighting against an entire village and moving the spell around from a distance is great, but in close quarters it’s tough to position so you catch only enemies and not allies
Reverse Gravity also should not do much to a flying creature. They were already falling - with style so to speak. I can see a save negates and simply using up their entire movement next round to stay in the same place, if they fail their save. Whirlwind should still affect those that can fly.
Large or smaller is a real limit. Doesn't do much to the bigguns and vs a 7th level spell those kinds of things become common.
There's no RAW defense for flying creatures against the spell - you're just forced to fall. That said, I agree with you, and would let flying creatures use the Xanathar's rules to reduce or negate the falling damage. Once a creature is done falling, the spell holds the creature in place, oscillating it. Flying won't help, the creature is just stuck, like a fly in amber.
The biggest problem with using Reverse Gravity as control is that in general your targets become immune to ranged weapon attacks, as all projectiles are also subject to the spell, and melee weapon attacks are tricky - you need truly obnoxious reach, which is situationally possible but generally impossible. You have to switch to spells to murder the targets while they sit there wishing they could move, although certainly they can teleport out.
If it were a bonus action that would be awesome. But it's an action to move it around once you've created it. Feels like OK territory to me.
Unless you're a Sorcerer with Quickened Spell, in which case you can really bring the house down (and then another house, on the same turn). This is basically the epitome of the Storm Sorcerer, even if it doesn't do thunder damage because 5e damage types are nonsensical.
It also depends on the caster. Whirlwind cast by an evocation wizard is a totally different spell - now it's an incredibly powerful defensive spell the wizard drops on the party on purpose, rendering them immune to essentially all projectiles while also harshly penalizing anything that tries to get into melee with the party.
If it were a bonus action that would be awesome. But it's an action to move it around once you've created it. Feels like OK territory to me.
Unless you're a Sorcerer with Quickened Spell, in which case you can really bring the house down (and then another house, on the same turn). This is basically the epitome of the Storm Sorcerer, even if it doesn't do thunder damage because 5e damage types are nonsensical.
Late to reply, but I'm talking about moving the already cast whirlwind around on subsequent turns. Quickened Spell is only going to effect the casting of it, not the actions used on later turns to control it.
If it were a bonus action that would be awesome. But it's an action to move it around once you've created it. Feels like OK territory to me.
Unless you're a Sorcerer with Quickened Spell, in which case you can really bring the house down (and then another house, on the same turn). This is basically the epitome of the Storm Sorcerer, even if it doesn't do thunder damage because 5e damage types are nonsensical.
Late to reply, but I'm talking about moving the already cast whirlwind around on subsequent turns. Quickened Spell is only going to effect the casting of it, not the actions used on later turns to control it.
This is why upcasting Animate Objects is better to me as you control the objects with a BA. That leaves your action free for more spells.
Whirlwind is an excellent Bad Guy spell, as it lets you do large amounts of property damage from outside the range of most countermeasures, and against tier 2 PCs it is highly annoying while not that likely to actually kill them, so it's a good way to establish BBEG creds. It's less useful to PCs.
Whirlwind is a spell that’s very potent for sorcerers. The option to quicken it when first cast is effective like ratwhowouldbeking pointed out.
it’s also one of those type of spells that don’t get upscaling benefit from higher slots being used, which makes it a great contender to be used with the empowered metamagic option. For a spell point the sorcerer can reroll probably half the die on a bad roll. Whirlwind can be used to deal damage multiple times in a single round if the party has ways to force movement in and out on their turns. Each time a creature enters the whirlwind they repeat the save and take the damage. Empowered does t take an action either, so every roll could be affected. There’s also the benefit that empowered spell would only be used on poor rolls, so it may not need to be used at all depending on the rolls, which can conserve points.
the fact that the whirlwind takes an action to move also makes it a contender to be a seed when the caster ready an action. The caster could potentially spend their action to ready the “movement” of the whirlwind when adversaries momentarily clump up on their turns. Readying is always a gamble, but this is something that can’t be done with bonus actions at all. Since your readying the use of the whirlwind spells action, your not actually casting, so you don’t lose concentration or spell slots.
“There's no RAW defense for flying creatures against the spell - you're just forced to fall. That said, I agree with you, and would let flying creatures use the Xanathar's rules to reduce or negate the falling damage. Once a creature is done falling, the spell holds the creature in place, oscillating it. Flying won't help, the creature is just stuck, like a fly in amber.” the spell description “A restrained creature moves with the whirlwind and. falls when the spell ends, unless the creature has some means to stay aloft.” How would being able to fly not count as some means to stay aloft?
I think an important distinction is the last paragraph that talks about being hurled in a random direction. It doesn’t limit the throw to horizontal directions. So it could be outward, downward, or even upward. If a creature is unlucky, it could be hurled upward only to land back in the whirlwind.
I would also rule that shooting a ranged weapon into/through a Reverse Gravity merely gives you disadvantage to hit. Gravity was affecting it BEFORE it entered, I can not see a mere reversal automatically cancelling the attack.
I wouldn't even bother with Disadvantage. Gravity is largely irrelevant unless you are arching the shot over a long distance. Not to mention that the target would have difficulty avoiding the shot regardless.
If I'm reading correctly, Reverse Gravity only effects those who were caught in the area during the initial casting? So a creature that makes their Dex save to grab onto a tree or something is entirely free from the effects of the spell for the duration? This would mean that ranged attacks wouldn't even experience the gravity shift.
I wonder how strictly "anchored to the ground" is meant to be interpreted. In a desert, the ground isn't even anchored to itself. Unless the spell were cast on a smooth marble cliff, almost everyone should be able to at least attempt the Dex saving throw.
A note on reverse gravity - the reversed gravity lasts for up to a minute so while it doesn’t say anything about those dumb/unlucky enough to enter the area they should be effected as soon as they enter. On the other hand flying creatures should be almost unaffected as they are already fighting gravity - they should just act like coming out of a dive upside down and then keep flying.
I play a lot of sorlocks. I think of whirlwind as an upgraded telekinesis. It uses an action to cast and an action to operate on subsequent rounds but you can use quicken to cast another leveled spell during those subsequent rounds.
I think it's better than telekinesis because it does a decent amount of damage over multiples targets and can restrain multiple creatures at once. The damage and saving throw vs restraint can be applied several times per round if you have some method of forced movement like Repelling Blast
It falls below telekinesis because the size of restrained creatures is limited to large instead of huge and there is a saving throw instead of an ability check and the strength saving throw is behind a dex saving throw.
So while it is probably a better damage spell than control spell it has a pretty decent amount of each
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I have been told by others that Whirlwind is a bad 'control' spell.
But after reading it and comparing to other 7th level spells, it looks pretty good.
As a Bonus Action, you move it and in a path 20 ft wide, 30 ft (starting at ground), 30 ft long, every round, they must save 10d6, save for 5d6. The restraint and throwing you up 5 ft are just an add on that we do not care about. It's a massive damaging spell.
10 rounds of attacks, Concentration, with a huge range (300 ft).
Compare with crown of stars - 7 missiles doing 4d12 or nothing. Granted, longer duration and no concentration.
I mean, damage isn't control. It's worse at control than other options, like Reverse Gravity and Mirage Arcana.
I'd have to play with it in game, but it looks pretty effective for the right kind of encounter.
Reverse Gravity has a better area, and no save*. However, Whirlwind can move the affected targets laterally, which opens up a lot of possibilities. If the target succeeds on breaking themselves free, they are thrown up to 180ft in a random direction. This is very potent in terrains with environmental hazards, and can be combined with spells like Wall of Fire to grab enemies and bring them into the area of other damaging spells. Whirlwind is also better against Flying enemies than Reverse Gravity.
That said, as a spell for 13th+ level players, the limitation of "Large or smaller" is an issue. High CR small targets will probably have access to magic or other defensive options, while Huge+ targets will be able to ignore the "control" effect entirely.
Reverse Gravity also should not do much to a flying creature. They were already falling - with style so to speak. I can see a save negates and simply using up their entire movement next round to stay in the same place, if they fail their save. Whirlwind should still affect those that can fly.
Large or smaller is a real limit. Doesn't do much to the bigguns and vs a 7th level spell those kinds of things become common.
It’s the double edge of those big area spells, is what I’d imagine is the problem. Fighting against an entire village and moving the spell around from a distance is great, but in close quarters it’s tough to position so you catch only enemies and not allies
If it were a bonus action that would be awesome. But it's an action to move it around once you've created it. Feels like OK territory to me.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
There's no RAW defense for flying creatures against the spell - you're just forced to fall. That said, I agree with you, and would let flying creatures use the Xanathar's rules to reduce or negate the falling damage. Once a creature is done falling, the spell holds the creature in place, oscillating it. Flying won't help, the creature is just stuck, like a fly in amber.
The biggest problem with using Reverse Gravity as control is that in general your targets become immune to ranged weapon attacks, as all projectiles are also subject to the spell, and melee weapon attacks are tricky - you need truly obnoxious reach, which is situationally possible but generally impossible. You have to switch to spells to murder the targets while they sit there wishing they could move, although certainly they can teleport out.
Unless you're a Sorcerer with Quickened Spell, in which case you can really bring the house down (and then another house, on the same turn). This is basically the epitome of the Storm Sorcerer, even if it doesn't do thunder damage because 5e damage types are nonsensical.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
Honestly I think upcast spells tend to be a better use of the 7th level slot most of the time.
I would rather upcast Animate Objects for control/damage.
It also depends on the caster. Whirlwind cast by an evocation wizard is a totally different spell - now it's an incredibly powerful defensive spell the wizard drops on the party on purpose, rendering them immune to essentially all projectiles while also harshly penalizing anything that tries to get into melee with the party.
Late to reply, but I'm talking about moving the already cast whirlwind around on subsequent turns. Quickened Spell is only going to effect the casting of it, not the actions used on later turns to control it.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
This is why upcasting Animate Objects is better to me as you control the objects with a BA. That leaves your action free for more spells.
Whirlwind is an excellent Bad Guy spell, as it lets you do large amounts of property damage from outside the range of most countermeasures, and against tier 2 PCs it is highly annoying while not that likely to actually kill them, so it's a good way to establish BBEG creds. It's less useful to PCs.
Whirlwind is a spell that’s very potent for sorcerers. The option to quicken it when first cast is effective like ratwhowouldbeking pointed out.
it’s also one of those type of spells that don’t get upscaling benefit from higher slots being used, which makes it a great contender to be used with the empowered metamagic option. For a spell point the sorcerer can reroll probably half the die on a bad roll. Whirlwind can be used to deal damage multiple times in a single round if the party has ways to force movement in and out on their turns. Each time a creature enters the whirlwind they repeat the save and take the damage. Empowered does t take an action either, so every roll could be affected. There’s also the benefit that empowered spell would only be used on poor rolls, so it may not need to be used at all depending on the rolls, which can conserve points.
the fact that the whirlwind takes an action to move also makes it a contender to be a seed when the caster ready an action. The caster could potentially spend their action to ready the “movement” of the whirlwind when adversaries momentarily clump up on their turns. Readying is always a gamble, but this is something that can’t be done with bonus actions at all. Since your readying the use of the whirlwind spells action, your not actually casting, so you don’t lose concentration or spell slots.
“There's no RAW defense for flying creatures against the spell - you're just forced to fall. That said, I agree with you, and would let flying creatures use the Xanathar's rules to reduce or negate the falling damage. Once a creature is done falling, the spell holds the creature in place, oscillating it. Flying won't help, the creature is just stuck, like a fly in amber.”
the spell description “A restrained creature moves with the whirlwind and. falls when the spell ends, unless the creature has some means to stay aloft.” How would being able to fly not count as some means to stay aloft?
I think an important distinction is the last paragraph that talks about being hurled in a random direction. It doesn’t limit the throw to horizontal directions. So it could be outward, downward, or even upward. If a creature is unlucky, it could be hurled upward only to land back in the whirlwind.
I would also rule that shooting a ranged weapon into/through a Reverse Gravity merely gives you disadvantage to hit. Gravity was affecting it BEFORE it entered, I can not see a mere reversal automatically cancelling the attack.
I wouldn't even bother with Disadvantage. Gravity is largely irrelevant unless you are arching the shot over a long distance. Not to mention that the target would have difficulty avoiding the shot regardless.
If I'm reading correctly, Reverse Gravity only effects those who were caught in the area during the initial casting? So a creature that makes their Dex save to grab onto a tree or something is entirely free from the effects of the spell for the duration? This would mean that ranged attacks wouldn't even experience the gravity shift.
I wonder how strictly "anchored to the ground" is meant to be interpreted. In a desert, the ground isn't even anchored to itself. Unless the spell were cast on a smooth marble cliff, almost everyone should be able to at least attempt the Dex saving throw.
For me, I want to know if Whirlwind can be used from a ship. Does the ocean count as 'the ground"?
Ask the DM? Though it should probably be a waterspout spell at that point.
A note on reverse gravity - the reversed gravity lasts for up to a minute so while it doesn’t say anything about those dumb/unlucky enough to enter the area they should be effected as soon as they enter. On the other hand flying creatures should be almost unaffected as they are already fighting gravity - they should just act like coming out of a dive upside down and then keep flying.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I play a lot of sorlocks. I think of whirlwind as an upgraded telekinesis. It uses an action to cast and an action to operate on subsequent rounds but you can use quicken to cast another leveled spell during those subsequent rounds.
I think it's better than telekinesis because it does a decent amount of damage over multiples targets and can restrain multiple creatures at once. The damage and saving throw vs restraint can be applied several times per round if you have some method of forced movement like Repelling Blast
It falls below telekinesis because the size of restrained creatures is limited to large instead of huge and there is a saving throw instead of an ability check and the strength saving throw is behind a dex saving throw.
So while it is probably a better damage spell than control spell it has a pretty decent amount of each