Currently playing a level 3 Variant Human Gloom stalker Ranger in Lost Mines. We will likely level up next session and I have been stuck for two weeks on what I should do at 4th level.
Currently at 16 Dex and 16 Wisdom, have sharpshooter from level 1.
I do a combo of ranged longbow attacks and melee with two short swords.
currently considering either a feat: crossbow expert, dual wielder, or maybe multi class into Rogue for sneak attack.
I am unsure if we are continuing to another campaign together after this one is over although I think it is pretty likely we will.
what are your suggestions? I’m open to more than just what I’m considering above.
Lost Mines is an intro adventure that will take you to level 4 or 5 depending on if you do the optional stuff. If you are unsure what happens after the module ends then ask the DM. Many pug’s simply break up when it ends. The Lost Mines game I am currently running will end in about 2 sessions, and one of the current players is going to run a new module starting with brand new characters.
Personally I would take ranger 4, Crossbow expert would give you some bonuses but not much. Upping your dex to 18 would be a big boost for you (my recommendation), dual wielding is a trap for the most part, unless you also have the two weapon fighting style.
For me the choice between MC, ASI & Feat would depend how often i likely am to use their benefits respectively. If i rarely have enemies within 5 feet of me and won't get to level 5 for Extra Attack with no loading, then its more a choice between an attack as a bonus action versus a bunch of useful bonuses i make use of on a more regular basis that can help as a Sharpshooter or when two-weapon fighting as well as out of combat. I'd most likely go DEX +2 among the choices.
DEX ASI: +1 AC, initiative, attack & damage rolls as well as DEX save and skills
Crossbow Expert: Ignore the loading quality, no disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls while adjacent,.bonus action attack.
The dial wielding feat allows you to use 2 weapons without the restriction of being light only and it allows you to draw them both at the same time, but the second weapon attack always uses your bonus action and only uses the base weapon damage unless you have the fighting style. It also only triggers when you take the attack action with a melee weapon so will be worthless when using your bow. There are so many other options that you could be doing depending on your other choices with the bonus action. There are also a lot of things that become pointless when you make 2 attacks like that so it depends massively on your build.
Things such as casting or moving your Hunters Mark uses your bonus action so any turn where you kill an enemy means your ba is taken up with moving it to the next target so no second attack. Forced movement is pointless as if you move the enemy away then you have to move closer to hit with the second attack. As an example lvl 5 (Ranger swarm keeper 4 / Warlock Dao 1) dueling fighting style, crusher feat and 18 dex: Bonus action move hunters mark to target, action cast booming blade and hit target. Damage = 1d8(rapier) +4(dex) +2(duelling fighting style) +3 bludgeoning(Dao bonus) +1d8(booming blade) +1d6(hunters mark) and then 5 ft knockback from crusher and 15ft knockback from gathered swarm. (Ideally knock back into a spell effect like spike growth or cloud of daggers for even more damage).
The enemy then has to either drop their weapon and draw a ranged weapon assuming they didn’t have a shield, cast a ranged spell or move back into melee and take another 2d8 from booming blade.
So you did a total of 4d8 +1d6 +9 damage from a single attack, compared with 2d8+4 from 2 weapon fighting with 2 rapiers and none of the knockback and juicy bonus damage. On paper it looks good but in practice it is less than impressive.
Just to add, I wouldn’t use my example build in a module like Lost Mines unless I knew for sure that the game would continue afterwards as it doesn’t properly come online until level 5.
In your position with the gloomstalker I would use martial versatility to get archery fighting style if you don’t have it, and take ranger 4 and boost your dex (or crossbow expert as second choice if you keep finding yourself within 5ft of an enemy). Alternatively get the duelling fighting style and go with the dex boost, rapier and shield. Which will up your ac by 3 with no reduction in damage (1d8+6=10.5 average instead of 2d6+3=11 average). Throw in the aforementioned increase in all dex skills and saves. Its the more optimal choice.
I'd go with just increasing your DEX to 18... WIS is useful for a Ranger, but a lot of a Ranger's best spells don't rely on spell saves... Hunter's Mark just lands, no chance to save. Gloomstalker especially wants that extra DEX... you're already built to increase your Initiative so you can position yourself at the start of combat... whether that means getting to the frontline with your swords, or finding an ideal sniping position before the enemy. Then your DEX helps you land not just your regular attacks, but your Dread Ambusher attack as well. This pairs well with Sharpshooter... taking that -5 to-hit hurts a little less when you're getting a +6 to your attacks instead of a +5. If you can manage to start combat hidden, you can concentrate sharpshooter fire on one enemy and take them off the board easily... I know because I DM'd Lost Mines with a character who had Sharpshooter and high DEX, and they easily eliminated almost any target they set their sights on, especially if they managed to sneak into a combat encounter. They would have been even more devastating if they were a Gloomstalker, since they get those big bonuses right at the start of combat.
Pure mechanics and damage output, sticking Ranger and taking the Dex is likely going to give you the best overall results. As mentioned, a +1 boost to your attacks, AC, Initiative and Dex save (and skills, hello Stealth, Acrobatics and such) Keeping to Ranger, should you reach 5, will get you a 2nd attack, which is nice. If the character is allowed to continue in another campaign, in my eyes, that's when to MC to Rogue if you want/intend to. Now you'll have 2 attacks on your action, so double chances of hitting for Sneak attack (can only use it once, but if you miss, you get a second chance) which can and will be a nice boost to your damage output, along with all the other Rogue perks.
That's pure mechanics. If you have a character design and RP reasoning to jump to Rogue now, then that is the best thing for you and your character. The mechanical precision should (IMO) come second to making the character YOU want to play. Anything not intentionally bad will be workable in most situations.
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TWF is designed for nova attackers that do not get enough extra attacks. Basically Smites and Sneak Attack make it work. What you are trying to do in those cases to ensure you get at least ONE hit every round.
Rogue is the stereotype. A pure rogue gets one attack per round, even at 20th level. Throw in an extra attack at the cost of a Bonus Action doubles their chance to get off their all important Sneak Attack. Paladins get smite, so you might think they would do that, but they do not need a finesse weapon for smite (which rogue does), so Pole Arm Master does it better than TWF.
Rangers have a tradition of doing TWF, but currently there is no good reason for them to do it. Honestly, if I were WOTC, I would have given them a spell or two that takes advantage of it. They have lots of archery spells, they should have at least one TWF based spell. Perhaps a 3rd level spell that lets them take 2 attacks from the Bonus Action when TWFing, upgradeable to 3 attacks when upcast to 4, and four attacks when upcast to level 5.
Pure mechanics and damage output, sticking Ranger and taking the Dex is likely going to give you the best overall results. As mentioned, a +1 boost to your attacks, AC, Initiative and Dex save (and skills, hello Stealth, Acrobatics and such) Keeping to Ranger, should you reach 5, will get you a 2nd attack, which is nice. If the character is allowed to continue in another campaign, in my eyes, that's when to MC to Rogue if you want/intend to. Now you'll have 2 attacks on your action, so double chances of hitting for Sneak attack (can only use it once, but if you miss, you get a second chance) which can and will be a nice boost to your damage output, along with all the other Rogue perks.
That's pure mechanics. If you have a character design and RP reasoning to jump to Rogue now, then that is the best thing for you and your character. The mechanical precision should (IMO) come second to making the character YOU want to play. Anything not intentionally bad will be workable in most situations.
That's a good point... with just about any martial class it's best to stay single-class at least until you get access to Extra Attack.
Yeah im not a big fan of multiclassing before reaching level 6 for classes with Extra Attack, as it delay access to such an important feature to them that i generally want to get it as soon as i can instead. Things may change if it's a one shot or a mini campaign that ends before and for which i have a build in mind for.
Always get your primary attacking stat to 20 before taking anything else, unless you're taking the Alert feat, Greatweapon Master or Sharpshooter feats. It's the single biggest damage increase outside of those feats.
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Hello!
Currently playing a level 3 Variant Human Gloom stalker Ranger in Lost Mines. We will likely level up next session and I have been stuck for two weeks on what I should do at 4th level.
Currently at 16 Dex and 16 Wisdom, have sharpshooter from level 1.
I do a combo of ranged longbow attacks and melee with two short swords.
currently considering either a feat: crossbow expert, dual wielder, or maybe multi class into Rogue for sneak attack.
I am unsure if we are continuing to another campaign together after this one is over although I think it is pretty likely we will.
what are your suggestions? I’m open to more than just what I’m considering above.
Lost Mines is an intro adventure that will take you to level 4 or 5 depending on if you do the optional stuff. If you are unsure what happens after the module ends then ask the DM. Many pug’s simply break up when it ends. The Lost Mines game I am currently running will end in about 2 sessions, and one of the current players is going to run a new module starting with brand new characters.
Personally I would take ranger 4, Crossbow expert would give you some bonuses but not much. Upping your dex to 18 would be a big boost for you (my recommendation), dual wielding is a trap for the most part, unless you also have the two weapon fighting style.
Just so I understand, why is dual wielding a trap?
For me the choice between MC, ASI & Feat would depend how often i likely am to use their benefits respectively. If i rarely have enemies within 5 feet of me and won't get to level 5 for Extra Attack with no loading, then its more a choice between an attack as a bonus action versus a bunch of useful bonuses i make use of on a more regular basis that can help as a Sharpshooter or when two-weapon fighting as well as out of combat. I'd most likely go DEX +2 among the choices.
DEX ASI: +1 AC, initiative, attack & damage rolls as well as DEX save and skills
Crossbow Expert: Ignore the loading quality, no disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls while adjacent,.bonus action attack.
Rogue Multiclassing: Expertise, Sneak Attack, Thieves' Cant.
The dial wielding feat allows you to use 2 weapons without the restriction of being light only and it allows you to draw them both at the same time, but the second weapon attack always uses your bonus action and only uses the base weapon damage unless you have the fighting style. It also only triggers when you take the attack action with a melee weapon so will be worthless when using your bow. There are so many other options that you could be doing depending on your other choices with the bonus action. There are also a lot of things that become pointless when you make 2 attacks like that so it depends massively on your build.
Things such as casting or moving your Hunters Mark uses your bonus action so any turn where you kill an enemy means your ba is taken up with moving it to the next target so no second attack. Forced movement is pointless as if you move the enemy away then you have to move closer to hit with the second attack. As an example lvl 5 (Ranger swarm keeper 4 / Warlock Dao 1) dueling fighting style, crusher feat and 18 dex: Bonus action move hunters mark to target, action cast booming blade and hit target. Damage = 1d8(rapier) +4(dex) +2(duelling fighting style) +3 bludgeoning(Dao bonus) +1d8(booming blade) +1d6(hunters mark) and then 5 ft knockback from crusher and 15ft knockback from gathered swarm. (Ideally knock back into a spell effect like spike growth or cloud of daggers for even more damage).
The enemy then has to either drop their weapon and draw a ranged weapon assuming they didn’t have a shield, cast a ranged spell or move back into melee and take another 2d8 from booming blade.
So you did a total of 4d8 +1d6 +9 damage from a single attack, compared with 2d8+4 from 2 weapon fighting with 2 rapiers and none of the knockback and juicy bonus damage. On paper it looks good but in practice it is less than impressive.
Just to add, I wouldn’t use my example build in a module like Lost Mines unless I knew for sure that the game would continue afterwards as it doesn’t properly come online until level 5.
In your position with the gloomstalker I would use martial versatility to get archery fighting style if you don’t have it, and take ranger 4 and boost your dex (or crossbow expert as second choice if you keep finding yourself within 5ft of an enemy). Alternatively get the duelling fighting style and go with the dex boost, rapier and shield. Which will up your ac by 3 with no reduction in damage (1d8+6=10.5 average instead of 2d6+3=11 average). Throw in the aforementioned increase in all dex skills and saves. Its the more optimal choice.
I'd go with just increasing your DEX to 18... WIS is useful for a Ranger, but a lot of a Ranger's best spells don't rely on spell saves... Hunter's Mark just lands, no chance to save. Gloomstalker especially wants that extra DEX... you're already built to increase your Initiative so you can position yourself at the start of combat... whether that means getting to the frontline with your swords, or finding an ideal sniping position before the enemy. Then your DEX helps you land not just your regular attacks, but your Dread Ambusher attack as well. This pairs well with Sharpshooter... taking that -5 to-hit hurts a little less when you're getting a +6 to your attacks instead of a +5. If you can manage to start combat hidden, you can concentrate sharpshooter fire on one enemy and take them off the board easily... I know because I DM'd Lost Mines with a character who had Sharpshooter and high DEX, and they easily eliminated almost any target they set their sights on, especially if they managed to sneak into a combat encounter. They would have been even more devastating if they were a Gloomstalker, since they get those big bonuses right at the start of combat.
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How about your CON? Are you suffering with concentration checks? Resilient CON is a great feat if you have your basis covered.
Pure mechanics and damage output, sticking Ranger and taking the Dex is likely going to give you the best overall results. As mentioned, a +1 boost to your attacks, AC, Initiative and Dex save (and skills, hello Stealth, Acrobatics and such) Keeping to Ranger, should you reach 5, will get you a 2nd attack, which is nice. If the character is allowed to continue in another campaign, in my eyes, that's when to MC to Rogue if you want/intend to. Now you'll have 2 attacks on your action, so double chances of hitting for Sneak attack (can only use it once, but if you miss, you get a second chance) which can and will be a nice boost to your damage output, along with all the other Rogue perks.
That's pure mechanics. If you have a character design and RP reasoning to jump to Rogue now, then that is the best thing for you and your character. The mechanical precision should (IMO) come second to making the character YOU want to play. Anything not intentionally bad will be workable in most situations.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
TWF is designed for nova attackers that do not get enough extra attacks. Basically Smites and Sneak Attack make it work. What you are trying to do in those cases to ensure you get at least ONE hit every round.
Rogue is the stereotype. A pure rogue gets one attack per round, even at 20th level. Throw in an extra attack at the cost of a Bonus Action doubles their chance to get off their all important Sneak Attack. Paladins get smite, so you might think they would do that, but they do not need a finesse weapon for smite (which rogue does), so Pole Arm Master does it better than TWF.
Rangers have a tradition of doing TWF, but currently there is no good reason for them to do it. Honestly, if I were WOTC, I would have given them a spell or two that takes advantage of it. They have lots of archery spells, they should have at least one TWF based spell. Perhaps a 3rd level spell that lets them take 2 attacks from the Bonus Action when TWFing, upgradeable to 3 attacks when upcast to 4, and four attacks when upcast to level 5.
That's a good point... with just about any martial class it's best to stay single-class at least until you get access to Extra Attack.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
Yeah im not a big fan of multiclassing before reaching level 6 for classes with Extra Attack, as it delay access to such an important feature to them that i generally want to get it as soon as i can instead. Things may change if it's a one shot or a mini campaign that ends before and for which i have a build in mind for.
Always get your primary attacking stat to 20 before taking anything else, unless you're taking the Alert feat, Greatweapon Master or Sharpshooter feats. It's the single biggest damage increase outside of those feats.