So I've read a bunch of posts and character guides that say that the feat Polearm Master is great, but I just don't see it. What am I missing about it? All I see is extra chances to use a reaction and an okay use for a bonus action.What makes this so great?
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"Halt your wagging and wag your halters, for I am mastercryomancer!"
By itself it’s good but combine it with Sentinel and a reach weapon, you can stop an opponent with 5’ reach from moving adjacent and attacking you. Move back 5’ and repeat.
So I've read a bunch of posts and character guides that say that the feat Polearm Master is great, but I just don't see it. What am I missing about it? All I see is extra chances to use a reaction and an okay use for a bonus action.What makes this so great?
Basically... if you love the combat. and don't really care about any other aspect of D&D. Then it's good for the reasons Trirhabda above me listed.
Also, if you only ever attack in combat, or do attack based actions/preparation, and such. It's still really good.
Basically, it's like Hunting with a semi-auto rifle at a preserve specifically designed for hunting. If thats your bag, its great. But if you like other things like tracking an animal yourself and bow hunting with a non-crossbow bow. Then Polearm Master might not be for you.
First off, I'm not one of the people that make claims about how great it is, but I do see where it can be useful.
Since it lets you make an opportunity attack whenever someone enters the range of your weapon, you're pretty much gauranteed an opportunity attack when you're fighting an enemy that uses melee attacks, (which is most enemies)
Plus the bonus action part makes it equivalent to two Weapon fighting, but it doesn't require the fighting style to make it useful, the bonus action is also excellent for Paladins who can Divine on any attack but don't have access to the two weapon fighting style. And since it's a heavy weapon it qualifies for the Great Weapon Master feat, so if you think a d4 extra damage isn't much, than the chance of it dealing an extra 10 should change that opinion.
One of the greatest things about this Feat is it you also have the Sentinel feat, whenever someone comes within 10 feat of you, you can make an opportunity attack and than they're speed is reduced to 0, so if you're up against one melee opponent that doesn't have ranged attacks than they'll never even be able to touch you.
Now I do realize that a lot of the positives are other feats, but it still has some pretty good benefits of you use it right.
It's also can be a niche defense option for casters, if you can afford to take Polearm Master and Warcaster both. Being able to hit an enemy with Chill Touch, Frostbite, Infestation, Ray of Frost, Vicious Mockery, or an Eldritch Blast with push/slow invocations right before they enter melee range with you can get you out of plenty of scrapes.
First off, I'm not one of the people that make claims about how great it is, but I do see where it can be useful.
Since it lets you make an opportunity attack whenever someone enters the range of your weapon, you're pretty much gauranteed an opportunity attack when you're fighting an enemy that uses melee attacks, (which is most enemies)
Plus the bonus action part makes it equivalent to two Weapon fighting, but it doesn't require the fighting style to make it useful, the bonus action is also excellent for Paladins who can Divine on any attack but don't have access to the two weapon fighting style. And since it's a heavy weapon it qualifies for the Great Weapon Master feat, so if you think a d4 extra damage isn't much, than the chance of it dealing an extra 10 should change that opinion.
One of the greatest things about this Feat is it you also have the Sentinel feat, whenever someone comes within 10 feat of you, you can make an opportunity attack and than they're speed is reduced to 0, so if you're up against one melee opponent that doesn't have ranged attacks than they'll never even be able to touch you.
Now I do realize that a lot of the positives are other feats, but it still has some pretty good benefits of you use it right.
Maybe this is just me....
but unless every NPC/monster fails an intelligence check dc of 10.
i would have them ready actions to grab the pole arm weapon out of the pole arm master guys hands in those situations. As it’s not realistic people will just stand and gape from 10 feet away and not do anything
I say this because you said they specifically can “never” touch you.
really? Never? That’s just not effective DM’ing if the enemies can never do anything to Polearm Master and sentinel combo. And if they literally couldn’t do anything. Such a combination would not be allowed.
Polearm/Sentinel combo uses your reaction, so it really only stops 1 enemy per round, and only if you hit... That doesn't feel like an unreasonable ability to have at level 8 for someone that's elected to leave their attack stat at +3 instead of boosting it to +5, there's no reason for a DM to go out of their way to take away their toy. **Edit: Or 6 for a fighter, or 4 for a vhuman… still, doesn't feel unbalanced to me.**
Cavalier 18/Polearm/Sentinel is the extreme version of this, at which point you can fend off an unlimited number of opponents with special non-reaction attacks of opportunity. Melee 5-foot-reach enemies are pretty much out of luck unless you miss the attack... but again, that doesn't feel like an unreasonable trick for a hyper-specialized level 18 character, when 5-foot-reach melee enemies are only a small subset of what you'll be fighting at that point.
Polearm/Sentinel combo uses your reaction, so it really only stops 1 enemy per round, and only if you hit... That doesn't feel like an unreasonable ability to have at level 8 for someone that's elected to leave their attack stat at +3 instead of boosting it to +5, there's no reason for a DM to go out of their way to take away their toy.
Cavalier 18/Polearm/Sentinel is the extreme version of this, at which point you can fend off an unlimited number of opponents with special non-reaction attacks of opportunity. Melee 5-foot-reach enemies are pretty much out of luck unless you miss the attack... but again, that doesn't feel like an unreasonable trick for a hyper-specialized level 18 character, when 5-foot-reach melee enemies are only a small subset of what you'll be fighting at that point.
Agreed. (Maybe more than 1 per round depending on how many. Usually 2) But it’s unreasonable that enemies just literally stand there. 10 feet away. Doing nothing. Just staring at the guy until they die. Every 6 seconds going. “If only I was 5 feet closer”
its not taking away the toy either. They attempt to grab weapon. That means a contested roll.
I get it both ways. I know lots of people that like to do 1 thing and 1 thing only because it works. And I know others that like to try doing a lot of different things and grow and develop their characters as if it’s a person in a story or the life they wish they had.
i just think it’s lazy DM’ing If the guys literally stand there and do nothing until they die.
no persuasion attempt so vs chars insight to let them live
no intimidation for “when I get into your reach” etc.
just seems very flavorless to me in the way the scenario was painted above.
Polearm/Sentinel combo uses your reaction, so it really only stops 1 enemy per round, and only if you hit... That doesn't feel like an unreasonable ability to have at level 8 for someone that's elected to leave their attack stat at +3 instead of boosting it to +5, there's no reason for a DM to go out of their way to take away their toy.
Cavalier 18/Polearm/Sentinel is the extreme version of this, at which point you can fend off an unlimited number of opponents with special non-reaction attacks of opportunity. Melee 5-foot-reach enemies are pretty much out of luck unless you miss the attack... but again, that doesn't feel like an unreasonable trick for a hyper-specialized level 18 character, when 5-foot-reach melee enemies are only a small subset of what you'll be fighting at that point.
Agreed. (Maybe more than 1 per round depending on how many. Usually 2) But it’s unreasonable that enemies just literally stand there. 10 feet away. Doing nothing. Just staring at the guy until they die. Every 6 seconds going. “If only I was 5 feet closer”
its not taking away the toy either. They attempt to grab weapon. That means a contested roll.
I get it both ways. I know lots of people that like to do 1 thing and 1 thing only because it works. And I know others that like to try doing a lot of different things and grow and develop their characters as if it’s a person in a story or the life they wish they had.
i just think it’s lazy DM’ing If the guys literally stand there and do nothing until they die.
no persuasion attempt so vs chars insight to let them live
no intimidation for “when I get into your reach” etc.
just seems very flavorless to me in the way the scenario was painted above.
This sounds more like a DM punishing a play style or mechanic they don't like, thematically, than creative or "good" DM-ing. The enemies aren't just deciding to stand there doing nothing... they're being stopped by the PAM/Sentinel combo'd character. The player invested heavily into being able to that properly, obviously because it's something they enjoy. Would you go out of your way to throw tons of combat encounters at a party because the Rogue decided to invest heavily in social skills? Would you lock the party into neverending social encouters where they must talk their way out of situations because the Ranger's player built their character for exploration? More generally, do you make a habit out of preventing your players from using abilities they invested heavily into, in the name of "variety" or "good DM'ing"?
PAM is really good because it lets you use Great Weapon Master an extra time consistently (otherwise, builds that really benefit from GWM usually need GWM to go off, which is generally inconsistent). Since it lets you add your stat to the bonus attack damage, it's effectively like dual wielding with a two-hander and also lets you cast somatic spells without Warcaster. The extra reaction option is yet another way to potentially apply GWM.
Most classes also don't have a consistent, resource-free way of spending their bonus action (the main exception being rogues or dual wielding, which is problematic and/or inefficient for most builds after 5th level). I'm curious what better bonus actions you'd be expecting a build that would consider PAM in the first place to be taking consistently.
Polearm/Sentinel combo uses your reaction, so it really only stops 1 enemy per round, and only if you hit... That doesn't feel like an unreasonable ability to have at level 8 for someone that's elected to leave their attack stat at +3 instead of boosting it to +5, there's no reason for a DM to go out of their way to take away their toy.
Cavalier 18/Polearm/Sentinel is the extreme version of this, at which point you can fend off an unlimited number of opponents with special non-reaction attacks of opportunity. Melee 5-foot-reach enemies are pretty much out of luck unless you miss the attack... but again, that doesn't feel like an unreasonable trick for a hyper-specialized level 18 character, when 5-foot-reach melee enemies are only a small subset of what you'll be fighting at that point.
Agreed. (Maybe more than 1 per round depending on how many. Usually 2) But it’s unreasonable that enemies just literally stand there. 10 feet away. Doing nothing. Just staring at the guy until they die. Every 6 seconds going. “If only I was 5 feet closer”
its not taking away the toy either. They attempt to grab weapon. That means a contested roll.
I get it both ways. I know lots of people that like to do 1 thing and 1 thing only because it works. And I know others that like to try doing a lot of different things and grow and develop their characters as if it’s a person in a story or the life they wish they had.
i just think it’s lazy DM’ing If the guys literally stand there and do nothing until they die.
no persuasion attempt so vs chars insight to let them live
no intimidation for “when I get into your reach” etc.
just seems very flavorless to me in the way the scenario was painted above.
This sounds more like a DM punishing a play style or mechanic they don't like, thematically, than creative or "good" DM-ing. The enemies aren't just deciding to stand there doing nothing... they're being stopped by the PAM/Sentinel combo'd character. The player invested heavily into being able to that properly, obviously because it's something they enjoy. Would you go out of your way to throw tons of combat encounters at a party because the Rogue decided to invest heavily in social skills? Would you lock the party into neverending social encouters where they must talk their way out of situations because the Ranger's player built their character for exploration? More generally, do you make a habit out of preventing your players from using abilities they invested heavily into, in the name of "variety" or "good DM'ing"?
"Invested heavily into"
"I am a variant human. I take Polearm Master"
Yes. very heavily invested.
As I have spelled out in other posts. There's a difference between, being stopped 10 feet away and unable to move. and being unable to "do anything"
I was in a game last week where one of the players I play with attacked a slave in a cage with his trident, hit him, and went to stab him again. The slave stuck in a cage can't fight back. But was able to grab the trident.
Is this punishing the player for his heavy investment into being able to use a trident to stab people locked in a cage? is the DM punishing him too?
NOBODY is just going to stand there and do absolutely nothing as you attack them helplessly, unless they Statistically do not have the intelligence to do it.
Edit: MY ranger, just watched this exchange, and walked away, having his own problems to deal with, than a half-orc's anger issues towards a full orc. Didn't even bother to roll initiative, let him sort it out himself.
Polearm/Sentinel combo uses your reaction, so it really only stops 1 enemy per round, and only if you hit... That doesn't feel like an unreasonable ability to have at level 8 for someone that's elected to leave their attack stat at +3 instead of boosting it to +5, there's no reason for a DM to go out of their way to take away their toy.
Cavalier 18/Polearm/Sentinel is the extreme version of this, at which point you can fend off an unlimited number of opponents with special non-reaction attacks of opportunity. Melee 5-foot-reach enemies are pretty much out of luck unless you miss the attack... but again, that doesn't feel like an unreasonable trick for a hyper-specialized level 18 character, when 5-foot-reach melee enemies are only a small subset of what you'll be fighting at that point.
Agreed. (Maybe more than 1 per round depending on how many. Usually 2) But it’s unreasonable that enemies just literally stand there. 10 feet away. Doing nothing. Just staring at the guy until they die. Every 6 seconds going. “If only I was 5 feet closer”
its not taking away the toy either. They attempt to grab weapon. That means a contested roll.
I get it both ways. I know lots of people that like to do 1 thing and 1 thing only because it works. And I know others that like to try doing a lot of different things and grow and develop their characters as if it’s a person in a story or the life they wish they had.
i just think it’s lazy DM’ing If the guys literally stand there and do nothing until they die.
no persuasion attempt so vs chars insight to let them live
no intimidation for “when I get into your reach” etc.
just seems very flavorless to me in the way the scenario was painted above.
This sounds more like a DM punishing a play style or mechanic they don't like, thematically, than creative or "good" DM-ing. The enemies aren't just deciding to stand there doing nothing... they're being stopped by the PAM/Sentinel combo'd character. The player invested heavily into being able to that properly, obviously because it's something they enjoy. Would you go out of your way to throw tons of combat encounters at a party because the Rogue decided to invest heavily in social skills? Would you lock the party into neverending social encouters where they must talk their way out of situations because the Ranger's player built their character for exploration? More generally, do you make a habit out of preventing your players from using abilities they invested heavily into, in the name of "variety" or "good DM'ing"?
Show me in the rules so I can understand this bolded part.
Where in the rules, does it say this stops me from being able to ready an action to grab a weapon? Ready an action to grapple someone that comes within range? Doesn't let me Rip out my tooth from my own mouth taking damage, to flick it at a guy's forehead, like picking up a small rock and flicking it?
Polearm master and sentinel stop all that? Well damn. I should do polearm and sentinel with every character ever then. Seeing how it literally stops anything!
Yeah, that was my bad. I went back and re-read your posts. For some reason, I'd understood you were talking about house rules to eliminate or mitigate the PAM/Sentinel combo. Now I understand you're talking about how the targets of said combo react when affected (as in: they can use ranged weapons, they can attempt to disarm via a readied action (which requires some DM fiat, since RAW you can't disarm someone at 10' if your reach is 5', but is completely reasonable in this circumstance), etc.).
On the other hand, I do think you were overreacting to the statement that "if faced with one melee opponent with no ranged attacks and a 5' reach, they'll never be able to touch you". First off, it's not "never", it's "as long as you hit your Opportunity Attacks". Second, it's true! Barring DM house ruling that you can attempt to disarm someone with a reach weapon with a Readied action at range (again, not an unreasonable house rule, but a house rule nonetheless), an opponent with no ranged options will be unable to close into 5' range as long as the PAM/Sentinel character keeps moving back 5' and using their Reaction to make Opportunity Attacks and keeps hitting those Opportunity Attacks. On the other hand, how often does that actually happen? How often are you facing a single opponent, one-on-one, with no allies on either side, with no ranged weapons (including improvised weapons, i.e. a rock), and when simply running away is not an option? PAM/Sentinel is a powerful combo, but there's no need to get all twisted trying to account for it.
So I've read a bunch of posts and character guides that say that the feat Polearm Master is great, but I just don't see it. What am I missing about it? All I see is extra chances to use a reaction and an okay use for a bonus action.What makes this so great?
"Halt your wagging and wag your halters, for I am mastercryomancer!"
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By itself it’s good but combine it with Sentinel and a reach weapon, you can stop an opponent with 5’ reach from moving adjacent and attacking you. Move back 5’ and repeat.
Basically... if you love the combat. and don't really care about any other aspect of D&D. Then it's good for the reasons Trirhabda above me listed.
Also, if you only ever attack in combat, or do attack based actions/preparation, and such. It's still really good.
Basically, it's like Hunting with a semi-auto rifle at a preserve specifically designed for hunting. If thats your bag, its great. But if you like other things like tracking an animal yourself and bow hunting with a non-crossbow bow. Then Polearm Master might not be for you.
Blank
First off, I'm not one of the people that make claims about how great it is, but I do see where it can be useful.
Since it lets you make an opportunity attack whenever someone enters the range of your weapon, you're pretty much gauranteed an opportunity attack when you're fighting an enemy that uses melee attacks, (which is most enemies)
Plus the bonus action part makes it equivalent to two Weapon fighting, but it doesn't require the fighting style to make it useful, the bonus action is also excellent for Paladins who can Divine on any attack but don't have access to the two weapon fighting style. And since it's a heavy weapon it qualifies for the Great Weapon Master feat, so if you think a d4 extra damage isn't much, than the chance of it dealing an extra 10 should change that opinion.
One of the greatest things about this Feat is it you also have the Sentinel feat, whenever someone comes within 10 feat of you, you can make an opportunity attack and than they're speed is reduced to 0, so if you're up against one melee opponent that doesn't have ranged attacks than they'll never even be able to touch you.
Now I do realize that a lot of the positives are other feats, but it still has some pretty good benefits of you use it right.
It's also can be a niche defense option for casters, if you can afford to take Polearm Master and Warcaster both. Being able to hit an enemy with Chill Touch, Frostbite, Infestation, Ray of Frost, Vicious Mockery, or an Eldritch Blast with push/slow invocations right before they enter melee range with you can get you out of plenty of scrapes.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Anything that gives you a consistent way to attack as a bonus action while wielding a shield or using a reach weapon is automatically great.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Maybe this is just me....
but unless every NPC/monster fails an intelligence check dc of 10.
i would have them ready actions to grab the pole arm weapon out of the pole arm master guys hands in those situations. As it’s not realistic people will just stand and gape from 10 feet away and not do anything
Blank
I say this because you said they specifically can “never” touch you.
really? Never? That’s just not effective DM’ing if the enemies can never do anything to Polearm Master and sentinel combo. And if they literally couldn’t do anything. Such a combination would not be allowed.
Blank
Polearm/Sentinel combo uses your reaction, so it really only stops 1 enemy per round, and only if you hit... That doesn't feel like an unreasonable ability to have at level 8 for someone that's elected to leave their attack stat at +3 instead of boosting it to +5, there's no reason for a DM to go out of their way to take away their toy. **Edit: Or 6 for a fighter, or 4 for a vhuman… still, doesn't feel unbalanced to me.**
Cavalier 18/Polearm/Sentinel is the extreme version of this, at which point you can fend off an unlimited number of opponents with special non-reaction attacks of opportunity. Melee 5-foot-reach enemies are pretty much out of luck unless you miss the attack... but again, that doesn't feel like an unreasonable trick for a hyper-specialized level 18 character, when 5-foot-reach melee enemies are only a small subset of what you'll be fighting at that point.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Agreed. (Maybe more than 1 per round depending on how many. Usually 2) But it’s unreasonable that enemies just literally stand there. 10 feet away. Doing nothing. Just staring at the guy until they die. Every 6 seconds going. “If only I was 5 feet closer”
its not taking away the toy either. They attempt to grab weapon. That means a contested roll.
I get it both ways. I know lots of people that like to do 1 thing and 1 thing only because it works. And I know others that like to try doing a lot of different things and grow and develop their characters as if it’s a person in a story or the life they wish they had.
i just think it’s lazy DM’ing If the guys literally stand there and do nothing until they die.
no persuasion attempt so vs chars insight to let them live
no intimidation for “when I get into your reach” etc.
just seems very flavorless to me in the way the scenario was painted above.
Blank
Our word for the day is hyperbole.
Most of D&D world's, stories, settings, and adventures... come out of hyperbole.
Dread Gazebos anyone?
Blank
This sounds more like a DM punishing a play style or mechanic they don't like, thematically, than creative or "good" DM-ing. The enemies aren't just deciding to stand there doing nothing... they're being stopped by the PAM/Sentinel combo'd character. The player invested heavily into being able to that properly, obviously because it's something they enjoy. Would you go out of your way to throw tons of combat encounters at a party because the Rogue decided to invest heavily in social skills? Would you lock the party into neverending social encouters where they must talk their way out of situations because the Ranger's player built their character for exploration? More generally, do you make a habit out of preventing your players from using abilities they invested heavily into, in the name of "variety" or "good DM'ing"?
PAM is really good because it lets you use Great Weapon Master an extra time consistently (otherwise, builds that really benefit from GWM usually need GWM to go off, which is generally inconsistent). Since it lets you add your stat to the bonus attack damage, it's effectively like dual wielding with a two-hander and also lets you cast somatic spells without Warcaster. The extra reaction option is yet another way to potentially apply GWM.
Most classes also don't have a consistent, resource-free way of spending their bonus action (the main exception being rogues or dual wielding, which is problematic and/or inefficient for most builds after 5th level). I'm curious what better bonus actions you'd be expecting a build that would consider PAM in the first place to be taking consistently.
"Invested heavily into"
"I am a variant human. I take Polearm Master"
Yes. very heavily invested.
As I have spelled out in other posts. There's a difference between, being stopped 10 feet away and unable to move. and being unable to "do anything"
I was in a game last week where one of the players I play with attacked a slave in a cage with his trident, hit him, and went to stab him again. The slave stuck in a cage can't fight back. But was able to grab the trident.
Is this punishing the player for his heavy investment into being able to use a trident to stab people locked in a cage? is the DM punishing him too?
NOBODY is just going to stand there and do absolutely nothing as you attack them helplessly, unless they Statistically do not have the intelligence to do it.
Edit: MY ranger, just watched this exchange, and walked away, having his own problems to deal with, than a half-orc's anger issues towards a full orc. Didn't even bother to roll initiative, let him sort it out himself.
Blank
Show me in the rules so I can understand this bolded part.
Where in the rules, does it say this stops me from being able to ready an action to grab a weapon? Ready an action to grapple someone that comes within range? Doesn't let me Rip out my tooth from my own mouth taking damage, to flick it at a guy's forehead, like picking up a small rock and flicking it?
Polearm master and sentinel stop all that? Well damn. I should do polearm and sentinel with every character ever then. Seeing how it literally stops anything!
Blank
Yeah, that was my bad. I went back and re-read your posts. For some reason, I'd understood you were talking about house rules to eliminate or mitigate the PAM/Sentinel combo. Now I understand you're talking about how the targets of said combo react when affected (as in: they can use ranged weapons, they can attempt to disarm via a readied action (which requires some DM fiat, since RAW you can't disarm someone at 10' if your reach is 5', but is completely reasonable in this circumstance), etc.).
On the other hand, I do think you were overreacting to the statement that "if faced with one melee opponent with no ranged attacks and a 5' reach, they'll never be able to touch you". First off, it's not "never", it's "as long as you hit your Opportunity Attacks". Second, it's true! Barring DM house ruling that you can attempt to disarm someone with a reach weapon with a Readied action at range (again, not an unreasonable house rule, but a house rule nonetheless), an opponent with no ranged options will be unable to close into 5' range as long as the PAM/Sentinel character keeps moving back 5' and using their Reaction to make Opportunity Attacks and keeps hitting those Opportunity Attacks. On the other hand, how often does that actually happen? How often are you facing a single opponent, one-on-one, with no allies on either side, with no ranged weapons (including improvised weapons, i.e. a rock), and when simply running away is not an option? PAM/Sentinel is a powerful combo, but there's no need to get all twisted trying to account for it.
Or until they Disengage and move next to you.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Although because of Sentinel you can still hit enemies even when they disengage
Only when they leave your reach, not when they enter it (from PAM).