My son and I are currently in a campaign with two other players. In the simplest terms the other 2 players are melee-based while he and I are more range-based. My son is a LV3 Firbolg Druid (circle of moon) and is kind of our default healer. He and I have different opinions on WHEN he should use wild shape during combat. Not asking who's right or wrong just want to hear what others think.
He prefers to use wild shape almost immediately when combat starts primarily for the immediate max HP boost (current level in Firbolg form is 24). So if he turns into say a dire wolf his HP jumps to 37. I completely understand; it's hard to say no to an immediate HP increase. Completely get it.
On the other hand, I feel as though it's better to try to stay in Firbolg druid form early and stay further back from combat when possible. My thinking is: use spells to deal some ranged damage early; the other characters are hopefully doing some damage as well. After his character has taken some damage - let's say he's down to 8 HP - THAT is when he uses wild shape and takes the HP increase. Our targets have hopefully taken decent damage by then, and his character is now at max HP.
Circle of the Moon is all about shifting into a Beast Form early and charging in with tooth and claw. Now, generally speaking, they'll want to put up a concentration spell first, which is accented by their ability to Wildshape as a Bonus Action. Also, keep in mind that Wildshape substitutes the form's HP for the Druid's current HP, which is then reverted to either when the player drops the form or the form's HP is reduced to 0, carrying over excess damage; it does not truly add to their HP, and so functionally speaking there is little difference between assuming the form at max HP or 8 HP. There's nothing wrong with the standoff approach, but it's not really what people who take Circle of the Moon are looking for, and it supports getting into melee early just fine.
Also, keep in mind that Wildshape substitutes the form's HP for the Druid's current HP, which is then reverted to either when the player drops the form or the form's HP is reduced to 0, carrying over excess damage
That's the risk of waiting. If you use wild shape when you have single-digit HP, you could be knocked unconscious straight from your animal form due to the carryover
Wild shaping at full HP or close to it means that when you lose the form, you'll still be standing
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Personally I believe it’s better to wildshape early (especially as a circle of the moon) after popping off a concentration spell, charging in and committing mass murder, and after you allies start to look weak or you drop to your humanoid form, fall back and he’s up your friends from max hp while your safe.
It sounds like your party is actually 3 melee characters, and 1 ranged character, not 2 and 2.
Moon Druids excel in melee. and they can use their spell slots to restore hit points to themselves while Wildshaped, so they have an active use for their spell slots while Wildshaped, that's not spellcasting. He's playing exactly what that subclass was designed for.
Most importantly, don't forget that it's his character, and he needs to make the decisions about how to play it. It doesn't matter if his decisions are optimal or not, because it's his character, and he is contributing as an active member of the party. I don't believe this is an argument that needs to be had. Maybe in a one-shot or other campaign, you can play a Druid and use the tactics you think are best, and your son can see what you've talked about in action, then decide for himself which he likes better for his own character.
Early levels, IMO, his method is about right, coupled with what a few have added. Drop a concentration spell, wild shape, eat faces. All the points are valid, as to when you're frontlining as a bear, and get knocked OUT of wildshape, you still have a decent HP pool to survive the round until you can a) vacate the danger zone, or b) turn into a bear again. That's the most efficient use of the class/subclass skills and abilities for a while. If the campaign runs longer, he will start getting some spells that mean i MAY be better to stand back and rain hellfire down for a bit, using wildshape to repel anyone who rushes the ranged duo.
To me, wildshaping is the strongest, most useful method of running a mood druid until mid levels. Around 8-10 the base druid class spells start offing enough bang to be worth considering, as well, the limits on CR for your wild shape start getting to a point that you're not really outperforming the other melee classes, if anything, you're a bit less than them. I still see it as a massive safety, for the times an enemy does somehow get away from the beefy types to threaten you. Changing into a giant bear and swiping his face off is a great response for the bully looking to pound on a squishy caster.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Level 10 has the elemental forms though, which among other things have a lot of tanking power against mundane P/S/B damage and some nice attack options as well.
FayetteGamer ...appreciate your thoughts. I had wanted to be clear and may not have made it clear enough. I absolutely am letting him make his own decisions on how to play and will not make decisions for him. There is NO argument being had. The two of us are really tight.
So - that's on me. Looking at my original post I can see where it didn't come across well. Glad you caught that and appreciate the feedback
My son and I are currently in a campaign with two other players. In the simplest terms the other 2 players are melee-based while he and I are more range-based. My son is a LV3 Firbolg Druid (circle of moon) and is kind of our default healer. He and I have different opinions on WHEN he should use wild shape during combat. Not asking who's right or wrong just want to hear what others think.
He prefers to use wild shape almost immediately when combat starts primarily for the immediate max HP boost (current level in Firbolg form is 24). So if he turns into say a dire wolf his HP jumps to 37. I completely understand; it's hard to say no to an immediate HP increase. Completely get it.
On the other hand, I feel as though it's better to try to stay in Firbolg druid form early and stay further back from combat when possible. My thinking is: use spells to deal some ranged damage early; the other characters are hopefully doing some damage as well. After his character has taken some damage - let's say he's down to 8 HP - THAT is when he uses wild shape and takes the HP increase. Our targets have hopefully taken decent damage by then, and his character is now at max HP.
Anyone have some general thoughts?
He is right, especially if his character is the de facto healer. Druids get hardly any good ranged damage spells and at level 3 his WS is likely doing more damage than any spell he could cast. The front liners are going to be taking more damage than he if he stays at the back and so by the time you would have him WSing, he cannot b/c he will need to be casting healing spells to stop the frontliners from dying which cannot be done while in WS. He is much better off WSing immediately and charging in to draw attacks away from the other frontliners and do the most damage he can. Depending on the situation he might be better off casting a battlefield control spell like Entangle or Spike Growth on the 1st turn than using the Attack action, but only if there are many enemies in the AoE for those spells.
I've played a Moon Druid from level 3-14, this is their optimal playstyle across levels: 2-4 : WS and Attack, your WS is OP at these levels and you are as effective in melee as 2 regular melee characters combined, your concentration saves suck and your spell DC is low so don't even bother with casting a spell in the first round unless it is likely to stop enemies from attacking. 4th level feat - something to protect your concentration - either Warcaster or Resilient Con 5-7 : Throw up a concentration spell with your first action, WS as your bonus action and run into the fight biting & clawing. You're spell DC is still pretty weak so you're best of using a spell with 1/2 damage on success (Moonbeam, Call Lightning) or that doesn't rely of your spell DC (e.g. Conjure Animals, Polymorph). 8-9 : Throw up a concentration spell then WS using your WS to grapple, Shove, and Drag enemies into your concentration spell and absorbing some hits, then retreating and reverting to healer once your WS hit points are spent. 10-13 : Toss out ~2 spells while you get a feel for the enemy and can choose the best Elemental to WS into then dive into combat with an upcast appropriate concentration spell up.
My son and I are currently in a campaign with two other players. In the simplest terms the other 2 players are melee-based while he and I are more range-based. My son is a LV3 Firbolg Druid (circle of moon) and is kind of our default healer. He and I have different opinions on WHEN he should use wild shape during combat. Not asking who's right or wrong just want to hear what others think.
He prefers to use wild shape almost immediately when combat starts primarily for the immediate max HP boost (current level in Firbolg form is 24). So if he turns into say a dire wolf his HP jumps to 37. I completely understand; it's hard to say no to an immediate HP increase. Completely get it.
On the other hand, I feel as though it's better to try to stay in Firbolg druid form early and stay further back from combat when possible. My thinking is: use spells to deal some ranged damage early; the other characters are hopefully doing some damage as well. After his character has taken some damage - let's say he's down to 8 HP - THAT is when he uses wild shape and takes the HP increase. Our targets have hopefully taken decent damage by then, and his character is now at max HP.
Anyone have some general thoughts?
Circle of the Moon is all about shifting into a Beast Form early and charging in with tooth and claw. Now, generally speaking, they'll want to put up a concentration spell first, which is accented by their ability to Wildshape as a Bonus Action. Also, keep in mind that Wildshape substitutes the form's HP for the Druid's current HP, which is then reverted to either when the player drops the form or the form's HP is reduced to 0, carrying over excess damage; it does not truly add to their HP, and so functionally speaking there is little difference between assuming the form at max HP or 8 HP. There's nothing wrong with the standoff approach, but it's not really what people who take Circle of the Moon are looking for, and it supports getting into melee early just fine.
That's the risk of waiting. If you use wild shape when you have single-digit HP, you could be knocked unconscious straight from your animal form due to the carryover
Wild shaping at full HP or close to it means that when you lose the form, you'll still be standing
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Personally I believe it’s better to wildshape early (especially as a circle of the moon) after popping off a concentration spell, charging in and committing mass murder, and after you allies start to look weak or you drop to your humanoid form, fall back and he’s up your friends from max hp while your safe.
That’s how I would play a moon druid :)
It sounds like your party is actually 3 melee characters, and 1 ranged character, not 2 and 2.
Moon Druids excel in melee. and they can use their spell slots to restore hit points to themselves while Wildshaped, so they have an active use for their spell slots while Wildshaped, that's not spellcasting. He's playing exactly what that subclass was designed for.
Most importantly, don't forget that it's his character, and he needs to make the decisions about how to play it. It doesn't matter if his decisions are optimal or not, because it's his character, and he is contributing as an active member of the party. I don't believe this is an argument that needs to be had. Maybe in a one-shot or other campaign, you can play a Druid and use the tactics you think are best, and your son can see what you've talked about in action, then decide for himself which he likes better for his own character.
Early levels, IMO, his method is about right, coupled with what a few have added. Drop a concentration spell, wild shape, eat faces. All the points are valid, as to when you're frontlining as a bear, and get knocked OUT of wildshape, you still have a decent HP pool to survive the round until you can a) vacate the danger zone, or b) turn into a bear again. That's the most efficient use of the class/subclass skills and abilities for a while. If the campaign runs longer, he will start getting some spells that mean i MAY be better to stand back and rain hellfire down for a bit, using wildshape to repel anyone who rushes the ranged duo.
To me, wildshaping is the strongest, most useful method of running a mood druid until mid levels. Around 8-10 the base druid class spells start offing enough bang to be worth considering, as well, the limits on CR for your wild shape start getting to a point that you're not really outperforming the other melee classes, if anything, you're a bit less than them. I still see it as a massive safety, for the times an enemy does somehow get away from the beefy types to threaten you. Changing into a giant bear and swiping his face off is a great response for the bully looking to pound on a squishy caster.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Level 10 has the elemental forms though, which among other things have a lot of tanking power against mundane P/S/B damage and some nice attack options as well.
FayetteGamer ...appreciate your thoughts. I had wanted to be clear and may not have made it clear enough. I absolutely am letting him make his own decisions on how to play and will not make decisions for him. There is NO argument being had. The two of us are really tight.
So - that's on me. Looking at my original post I can see where it didn't come across well. Glad you caught that and appreciate the feedback
He is right, especially if his character is the de facto healer. Druids get hardly any good ranged damage spells and at level 3 his WS is likely doing more damage than any spell he could cast. The front liners are going to be taking more damage than he if he stays at the back and so by the time you would have him WSing, he cannot b/c he will need to be casting healing spells to stop the frontliners from dying which cannot be done while in WS. He is much better off WSing immediately and charging in to draw attacks away from the other frontliners and do the most damage he can. Depending on the situation he might be better off casting a battlefield control spell like Entangle or Spike Growth on the 1st turn than using the Attack action, but only if there are many enemies in the AoE for those spells.
I've played a Moon Druid from level 3-14, this is their optimal playstyle across levels:
2-4 : WS and Attack, your WS is OP at these levels and you are as effective in melee as 2 regular melee characters combined, your concentration saves suck and your spell DC is low so don't even bother with casting a spell in the first round unless it is likely to stop enemies from attacking.
4th level feat - something to protect your concentration - either Warcaster or Resilient Con
5-7 : Throw up a concentration spell with your first action, WS as your bonus action and run into the fight biting & clawing. You're spell DC is still pretty weak so you're best of using a spell with 1/2 damage on success (Moonbeam, Call Lightning) or that doesn't rely of your spell DC (e.g. Conjure Animals, Polymorph).
8-9 : Throw up a concentration spell then WS using your WS to grapple, Shove, and Drag enemies into your concentration spell and absorbing some hits, then retreating and reverting to healer once your WS hit points are spent.
10-13 : Toss out ~2 spells while you get a feel for the enemy and can choose the best Elemental to WS into then dive into combat with an upcast appropriate concentration spell up.