I'm a first timer on DnD, as well as everyone in my party. We are a Wizard, a Monk, a Paladin, and my character is a Fighter. We started at lvl 3 because our DM deemed it better since we were all novice. The thing is that mostly, everyone is more focused on doing damage during battle; than to support.
In the past 2 or 3 sessions, our Wizard has improved a lot in it's craftiness, changing the field tide during battles. Our Monk is the Ninja/Acrobat/Kung-Fu warrior. I'm the serious damage dealer. Our Paladin (the only healer) prefers to go on the offensive too. For example, in the last session I failed a saving throw and got pretty injured from an enemy spell. I was close to our Paladin, and he decided that it would be better to go fight than to heal/help me.
So, even though I tried to min/max my character for the most damage dealer build possible, I'm starting to feel that I should not depend on our Paladin for support, and I need to be more self-sufficient, sacrificing some offensive power to a more balanced build to be more supportive to my party.
I'm a lvl 4 Human Variant Battle Master with a Halberd as weapon. Standard array: STR 16, CON 15, WIS 13, DEX 12, INT 10, CHA 8. Feats: Polearm Master, Sentinel. Style: Great Weapon Fighting.
My min/max plan for the build is to keep the Battle Master all the way to lvl 20, improving it with Great Weapon Master, Lucky, Resilient (WIS), Martial Adept (Extra Sup. die), and STR ASI. My thought for a more "balanced" build is to multi-class 3 levels into Barbarian to get Rage and Bear Totem; and to exchange Martial Adept for the Healer feat.
In doing so, I will lose the Extra Attack 3 from the lvl 20 Fighter, 1 ASI, and 1 extra Sup. die. In exchange, I will be able to heal myself and the party, and be a little more tanky during ugly battles. My character does not trust in the gods, so he can't be a Cleric, Paladin, Warlock; or anything like that.
Do you think it's a fair trade? Should I stick with my original min/max plan? Are there better options?
Thank you. P.S: If I posted this in the wrong place, I would kindly ask the moderators to move it to the proper place.
Okay, firstly welcome to the game. You have raised a number of issues and I will try and explain them to you.
Tabletop D&D is not like computer games, you don't have people standing there doing nothing but heal the other party members. Healing spells are very inefficient and not really worth it except as an absolute last resort. The Paladin's player was absolutely correct in choosing to attack the enemy rather than heal you. He has just 3 first level spell slots to last the entire day, and he is far better off using them to cast shield of faith on himself or smite the bad guys with them. He also doesn't get cantrips so can't even cast spare the dying once you go down. As a fighter though you have access to second wind and can heal yourself once per short rest and it is actually going to heal more than the paladin can with a healing spell. In 5th ed nobody has a 'holy duty' to heal you. You need to help yourself - take short rests between fights, use potions and scrolls, healers kit for emergencies.
As for your build - you can't use Battle Master abilities while raging so that would be pointless, you will also only get 3 rages per day which is also not really worth it. The healer feat cannot be used to heal yourself - you use it on an unconscious party member. It is commonly thought of as being really bad unless you are completely support or a dedicated healer. It is a really bad swap as you can't wear heavy armour either.
With a dex of 12 and no shield you are looking at an AC of around 14-16 so you are going to get battered. The barbarian unarmoured defence will be an ac of just 13. As a fighter you can get heavy armour and even without a shield plate will get you an ac of 18.
A frontline tank with an AC of 16 or less is why you are getting hurt so much, and is down to your build - a fighter starts with either leather giving you ac 12 or chain mail giving you ac 16 and with a strength score of 16 your damage is going to be ok but not great, meaning it takes you longer to put your enemy down, giving them more chances to lay the smack down on you. If I worked it out right you have +6 to hit and do 1d10+3 and an extra 1d4+3 if you manage to hit with both attacks, but your BM abilities will increase your combat effectiveness by knocking enemies prone or doing additional damage etc. The barbarian bonuses for resistance and +2 damage only apply when raging and as I mentioned you only get 3 per day, it is a bad trade off.
You can't multiclass into Bard, Monk, Ranger, Paladin, Sorcerer, Wizard or Warlock by RAW because your stats are too low, you only have the choice of Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, or Rogue. Personally I would go for Cleric. Not all Clerics even believe or follow gods, some believe in abstract ideas, elemental forces and they would definitely be my first choice if I were you. Druid can also be very good for utility due to wildshape. Circle of stars would absolutely be my choice
That said I would actually concentrate on the important things get your armour class as high as you can, ask your DM if you can change your fighting style to protection for +1 (Tasha's books have rules for changing it at level 4.and grab a shield which will then raise your AC by 3, use a longsword when you are facing skilled opponents, fight tactically - you should be teaming up with your paladin to get advantage on all your enemies. Focus your attacks so you both attack the same one and hopefully kill one per round. Let your monk and wizard go for spell casters and archers.
Most importantly - don't tell other people how to play their character, your idea of fun and their idea of fun are probably not be the same, and you will end up arguing and the game will get unfun for everyone.
Wait, why can’t you use Battlemaster while Raging?
But, yes, Paladins CAN be well made for support and healing, but their primary role is tanking, smiting, and using Lay on Hands to give KO’d people 1 HP.
I could have sworn I read that you couldn't but a quick re=read and it would seem I am wrong.
Yes, a paladin can be built to heal, almost any character can, but the OP is demanding that the paladin be a healer as he considers it to be the paladin's holy duty. That's just not right, and clearly the paladin's player hasn't built a heal bot or they would be healing.In combat healing is just really bad action economy.
I'm not demanding to be healed. Our Paladin can play any way he likes. If he wants to go on full-offense, I'm not going to tell him how to play his character.
That's the reason why I'm asking for guidance to be, myself, a more supportive character for our party. That's all...
So, even though I tried to min/max my character for the most damage dealer build possible, I'm starting to feel that I can't depend on our Paladin for support, and I need to be more self-sufficient, sacrificing some offensive power to a more balanced build.
The pro move is to react in character to the Paladin leaving you to die, and hash out the argument in character. Playing without a real healer (a full caster with healing spells, however you accomplish that) is hard mode DnD anyway, so since you're in the deep end, may as well start swimming.
I'm a lvl 4 Human Variant Battle Master with a Halberd as weapon. Standard array: STR 16, CON 15, WIS 13, DEX 12, INT 10, CHA 8. Feats: Polearm Master, Sentinel. Style: Great Weapon Fighting.
My min/max plan for the build is to keep the Battle Master all the way to lvl 20, improving it with Great Weapon Master, Lucky, Resilient (WIS), Martial Adept (Extra Sup. die), and STR ASI.
For starters, your statline makes no sense. As a variant human with the standard array, your statline should be 16/14/14/12/10/8. Why are you CON 15 WIS 13 rather than CON 14 WIS 14? For seconders, Great Weapon Fighting is a garbage fighting style. It's improving your Halberd damage from 5.5 to 6.3 and your bonus action damage from 2.5 to 3. You'd be better off with Defense, especially if you want to stand on the front line and tank while also wielding a two-handed weapon instead of a shield. For thirders, GWM with Str 16 means you'll basically never land a hit - at level 6, against the AC DnD is built to assume you're swinging at, you're going to be at 60% accuracy base, and GWM will drop you to 35%. You'll do negligibly more damage than +2 Str would get you, and you won't be any better at Athletics or Str saves. You should gun for Str instead - it'll make you better at Shove and increase the save DCs of your maneuvers.
My thought for a more "balanced" build is to multi-class 3 levels into Barbarian to get Rage and Bear Totem; and to exchange Martial Adept for the Healer feat.
The Healer feat is pretty bad. You're better off focusing on preventing damage in the first place, which is what a tank is for. That said, a level 3 Barbarian has almost no rages, so Rage and Bear Totem is not a credible source of preventing damage.
In doing so, I will lose the Extra Attack 3 from the lvl 20 Fighter, 1 ASI, and 1 extra Sup. die. In exchange, I will be able to heal myself and the party, and be a little more tanky during ugly battles. My character does not trust in the gods, so he can't be a Cleric, Paladin, Warlock; or anything like that.
Do you think it's a fair trade? Should I stick with my original min/max plan? Are there better options?
Thank you.
P.S: If I posted this in the wrong place, I would kindly ask the moderators to move it to the proper place.
Step 1: Be better at tanking. Will your GM let you fix your stats? How wealthy are you and your party? There's no really valid excuse for being a DEX 12 Fighter - your best choices (out the gate) are DEX 8, DEX 10, DEX 14, or DEX 16. Or DEX 18 with Custom Lineage from Tasha's, which is Variant Human but better. The only options that fit you are 8, 10, and 14. You should be wearing a Breastplate (if Dex 14) or Splint mail (if Dex 10 or 8) by level 3. Here's a fixed statline for you, assuming you're stuck with Variant Human:
STR 16 CON 14 WIS 14 CHA 12 DEX 10 INT 8. AC: 17 in Splint, 18 in Splint with Defense or in Plate, 19 in Plate with Defense.
Step 2: If you're still really concerned about taking damage, switch from a Halberd to a Shield and a Spear. Your Polearm Master and Sentinel feats will both still work, and you'll get +2 AC at the cost of Reach. If you have a pack of spears, PAM's bonus action attack must be melee, but the Attack action attacks can be ranged, so you can chuck a spear, move, draw a spear, and finish attacking without losing any attacks.
Step 3: Get your Strength up. Once you're a more credible attacker, tanking will also be easier. Remember, you can Shove anything within reach.
I'm not demanding to be healed. Our Paladin can play any way he likes. If he wants to go on full-offense, I'm not going to tell him how to play his character.
That's the reason why I'm asking for guidance to be, myself, a more supportive character for our party. That's all...
My apologies, that's how it came across, and I notice that you have edited your post to remove your references to it being the Paladin's holy duty to heal you.
One other thing you could do is take the Magic Initiate (Cleric) feat which will allow you to pick up 2 cleric cantrips and get a 1st level spell which you can use once per day. Spare the Dying is usually not a great choice but it might come in handy (realistically it is no better than using a healers kit except they cost money and have only 10 uses per kit so can run out). Then I would take an attack cantrip like Sacred Flame or Toll the Dead. They both have pro's and cons to using them though. For the spell I would look at taking Healing word over Cure Wounds, it heals less (1d4+wis against 1d8+wis) but you can use it as a bonus action rather than your full action and you can do it at a decent range rather than needing to touch the target. This means that you can cast it on a downed party member while still making your attack and not having to move over and touch them. They then would be responsible for getting themselves up, disengaging and taking a healing potion. It isn't huge but it will be a life saver when a party member goes down.
Your stats are fine. You’ve set yourself up to be able to take several half feats to round out abilities scores and still gain feat abilities. Being a fighter gives you more ASIs to spend on stats and feats anyways.
level 6 you can choose between more strength, or half feats for potentially wisdom or constitution.
the strength bonus would make your damage progress upward naturally through increased accuracy and damage. Killing things before they kill you is a great way to reduce the damage potential against you and your party.
rounding up constitution would increase your maximum hitpoints, increase con save that is mostly targeted by poison effects, and slightly boost your healing on short rests when using hit die. Skill expert from tashas could be a nice way to round this out and gain expertise in athletics. The crusher feat can be used to increase your constitution and move your target around. If you roll a critical you and your allies have advantage on attacks against that target until the start of your next turn. A quarterstaff can be used to gain these benefits while dealing bludgeoning damage.
choosing the feat resilient for wisdom will make your most commonly targeted mental save much more robust. Wisdom saves often incapacitate or take away actions in some way, which leaves you a sitting duck while making your offense useless until you pass a save. I’d pick this at level 8 regardless of what you do at level 6. This will provide synergy with the indomitable feature you start gaining at level 9. Rerolling an important failed save is a bit more effective if you already have a good chance to pass. At higher levels the lack of proficiency will actually make some saves impossible to beat regardless of rerolling.
on a side note, if you can get the paladin to take the inspiring leader feat then your whole party will be more tanky. The refillable temporary hitpoints are awesome, and are kind of like healing you before you need it. The feat doesn’t cost other resources and leaves the spell slots available for smiting. If your paladin friend makes use of a bonus action attack, perhaps from two weapon fighting or some other source, they will have ridiculous burst potential when you need it.
Trip Attack, for gaining advantage, when I get multiple attacks at lvl 5.
Riposte, because I want to have as much triggers as possible to use my Reaction.
Precision Attack, thinking in the future, for Great Weapon Mastery.
The Feats I'm thinking:
Great Weapon Master (lvl 6), Resilient (lvl 8), Martial Adept (lvl 12), Lucky (lvl 14). But, I'm still not convinced about Martial Adept... 1 more Sup. Dice doesn't seem as a big improvement for me. Maybe Heavy Armor Master would be better.
Martial adept may not be as valuable to pick up until level 14 or 16. The level 15 subclass ability actually works together with the martial adept feat, allowing you to gain 2 die back when you roll initiative with no superiority die.
riposte is a great maneuver, but usually when multiclassing into rogue or some other class with reliable high damage on single attacks. Pushing attack may prove to be a bit more useful considering your party composition. Your wizard is about to start get getting access to AOE spells that have lingering effects at the cost of concentration. Many of them will reroll a save when the creatures are forced back into the effects area. This may drastically increase your parties effectiveness by way of teamwork, as these damages can usually be done again on each creatures turn with crafty allies. The paladin should have access to thunderous smite, which can do similar things. Your monk can make use of stunning strikes, or other resources depending on subclass.
heavy armor master is actually more effective than most people give it credit for, but most people DMs don’t much want to be bothering having to check every single attack for magical wording on the creatures they choose. It can really big down gameplay. If that’s something your table is fine with, then it’s a perfectly valid choice.
About the Maneuvers, at lvl 7 I'm planning to get Pushing Attack and Parry.
About Martial Adept, I didn't know it can synergize with Relentless...
About Heavy Armor Master, I don't think my DM will be bothered by it. Also, if I switch style from Great Weapon Fighting to Defense, I could be a little more tanky without the need of multi-class. Or, another option could be that I wear a Shield, and get Shield Master instead of HAM. Could be useful to compensate for my low DEX.
I would like to avoid multi-class if possible. But if I had to, which one would you recommend me?
About the Maneuvers, at lvl 7 I'm planning to get Pushing Attack and Parry.
About Martial Adept, I didn't know it can synergize with Relentless...
About Heavy Armor Master, I don't think my DM will be bothered by it. Also, if I switch style from Great Weapon Fighting to Defense, I could be a little more tanky without the need of multi-class. Or, another option could be that I wear a Shield, and get Shield Master instead of HAM. Could be useful to compensate for my low DEX.
I would like to avoid multi-class if possible. But if I had to, which one would you recommend me?
Cleric would be obvious choice if you could find a RP reason to go that way.
alternatively, get 3 levels of swarmkeeper ranger. It give you access to good berry and even magehand to deliver the berries to downed party members. And the ability to extricate yourself from melee or push opponents 15 feet is also very useful
what’s more, u get hunters mark (deadlier, since u are a fighter with multi attack n action surge), absorb elements to be tankier n also a second fighting style
Step 1: Be better at tanking. Will your GM let you fix your stats? How wealthy are you and your party? There's no really valid excuse for being a DEX 12 Fighter - your best choices (out the gate) are DEX 8, DEX 10, DEX 14, or DEX 16. Or DEX 18 with Custom Lineage from Tasha's, which is Variant Human but better. The only options that fit you are 8, 10, and 14. You should be wearing a Breastplate (if Dex 14) or Splint mail (if Dex 10 or 8) by level 3. Here's a fixed statline for you, assuming you're stuck with Variant Human:
STR 16 CON 14 WIS 14 CHA 12 DEX 10 INT 8. AC: 17 in Splint, 18 in Splint with Defense or in Plate, 19 in Plate with Defense.
Step 2: If you're still really concerned about taking damage, switch from a Halberd to a Shield and a Spear. Your Polearm Master and Sentinel feats will both still work, and you'll get +2 AC at the cost of Reach. If you have a pack of spears, PAM's bonus action attack must be melee, but the Attack action attacks can be ranged, so you can chuck a spear, move, draw a spear, and finish attacking without losing any attacks.
Step 3: Get your Strength up. Once you're a more credible attacker, tanking will also be easier. Remember, you can Shove anything within reach.
The way I roleplay my character, is someone that is not too social. CHA for me is not so important, even if it means that I can't persuade or negociate. The Paladin is usually the face of our Party. DEX 12 means that I'm trying to put a little effort into dodging AOE spells. INT, for me, it's more important than CHA, that's why I put it at 10.
I like the shield suggestion. I could continue using my Halberd as main weapon, and swap to lance + shield when the situation compels me to.
I think there are a few decent options when it comes to multiclassing. Dipping a single level out permanently takes away the potential for 4 attacks at level 20, but play at that level is very limited.
1 level dips. cleric: peace domain. Some useful cantrips, Proficiency with probably insight, emboldening bond, two level 1 spell slots, limited ritual casting, and probably 2-3 spells prepared. The bless spell, along with your emboldening bond, could drastically increase your parties offense and defense. Bless and emboldening are ridiculously effective as it increases the minimum and maximum possible on rolls which stacks with advantage. You naturally have proficiency in concentration saves, and your concentration is much better spend on bless than a full casters concentration would be. If you know a situation is incredibly dire, you can even set bless and emboldening bond up on the same turn with your action surge. The number of uses of emboldening bond also scales up with proficiency bonus, so that o e level dip will only get more reliable over time.
cleric: twilight domain. Solves the darkvision issue you may face by being human, along with allies if necessary. Advantage on initiative is also an incredibly potent effect. Same access to a few spells like bless that dont require high wisdom scores to be effective.
ranger. Tashas brings the ranger in with a few new abilities. You still get your d10 hitdie, but now you have the option of choosing class features. A skill, expertise, once per turn extra damage to a single creature requiring concentration but leaving your bonus action available.
barbarian does give rage, which does indeed increase your defense dramatically. It’s limited to 2 uses per long rest at level 1. The rage damage bonus would stack with every strength based melee attack you make with your halberd while raging.
idk exactly what your going for, but some of these dips would be potent and scale well with level and proficiency.
I think there are a few decent options when it comes to multiclassing. Dipping a single level out permanently takes away the potential for 4 attacks at level 20, but play at that level is very limited.
1 level dips. cleric: peace domain. Some useful cantrips, Proficiency with probably insight, emboldening bond, two level 1 spell slots, limited ritual casting, and probably 2-3 spells prepared. The bless spell, along with your emboldening bond, could drastically increase your parties offense and defense. Bless and emboldening are ridiculously effective as it increases the minimum and maximum possible on rolls which stacks with advantage. You naturally have proficiency in concentration saves, and your concentration is much better spend on bless than a full casters concentration would be. If you know a situation is incredibly dire, you can even set bless and emboldening bond up on the same turn with your action surge. The number of uses of emboldening bond also scales up with proficiency bonus, so that o e level dip will only get more reliable over time.
cleric: twilight domain. Solves the darkvision issue you may face by being human, along with allies if necessary. Advantage on initiative is also an incredibly potent effect. Same access to a few spells like bless that dont require high wisdom scores to be effective.
ranger. Tashas brings the ranger in with a few new abilities. You still get your d10 hitdie, but now you have the option of choosing class features. A skill, expertise, once per turn extra damage to a single creature requiring concentration but leaving your bonus action available.
barbarian does give rage, which does indeed increase your defense dramatically. It’s limited to 2 uses per long rest at level 1. The rage damage bonus would stack with every strength based melee attack you make with your halberd while raging.
idk exactly what your going for, but some of these dips would be potent and scale well with level and proficiency.
As I said in my first post, my intention is to be more supportive to my party, since everyone wants to go on offensive and we have no real healer.
Is it better to make some adjustments to my current character, and make it a little more tanky so I don't depend on Healing/Potions so much? (We have low gold, and not much potions).
Would a multi-class offer me enough supportive means (Healing, Buffs, Utilitary, Debuffs to enemies) to compensate for hindering my offensive capabilities? And, if so, which class offers me the best cost/benefit?
I'm just trying to evaluate my options since I'm at level 4, and that gives me room to adjust my build. Also, we are only using the basic options from the Player's Handbook 5e.
You can cut the cost of your healing potions in half with herbalism kit proficiency - but you also increase the time cost (rules are in Xanathar's). You can also use Tasha's to plead with the GM for a Sidekick with healing spells, if the party is this hard-up for a cleric. Sidekicks make your fights harder, since they count as a full PC for CR purposes but are worse than full PCs, but it could be worth it for having a healing supply.
A 1-level dip into the Peace Domain is one of the most powerful 1-level dips in the game, especially combined with the pally's Aura of Protection, but it would be better on the Pally than on you - the Pally would suffer nerfed spell slot progression, unlike you, but dialing Aura of Protection up to 7.5 is just obnoxiously good.
The level 1 dip into peace domain would provide you and your party with a great support option that increases your offense and defense. The 2nd level dip into peace domain would provide a channel divinity option that is a shortrest dependent heal combined with the dash and disengage actions as a single action. It has quite a bit of value, but takes your action. It’s going to be more of a last ditch effort on your part when a team member or two goes down. This means you shouldn’t use it u til you need it, and it’s dead weight of f not being used, powerful though it may be when needed.
The twilight option is a bit more limited in its effectiveness as a 1 level dip, but the second level channel divinity is exceedingly powerful and easier to use without being wasteful. Having a short rest dependent feature that creates dim light that follows you and also has the ability to give out temporary hitpoints at the end of a creatures turn or end status conditions with no further action required is ridiculous. The temporary hitpoints on average would roughly be comparable to you somehow giving your entire party the damage reduction from the heavy armor master feat, except it’s effective against all damage and the average would soak up 5.5 damage vs 3. this is with just the 2 level dip.
id try to figure out if you wanted to go 11 fighter and then dip or 5 fighter and then dip. Your extra attack features are important build breakpoints. 5 gives you that first extra attack to stay a damage dealer at tier two, but dipping out at this tear you will find your offense lagging a bit and probably equaling out to the paladin as they get more smite slots. Level 11 will solidify your offensive capabilities while allowing you to have received that first extra ASI.
i personally like the 2 dip in twilight since preventing damage is almost always going to be feel and be effective in an encounter. Even in a situation where there’s no BBEG and the DM starts with horde mode, some of those weaker mobs are going to land hits. This will conserve your parties hit die and resources for emergency purposes when those are actually needed.
how high a level does your table plan on continuing your games?
You will continue to be effective regardless of your choice, but you may not like the way that you find yourself playing. My first character was a fighter champion, which I was recommended to play by some friends due to its simplicity. While I was slightly less effective than a battlemaster of the same type, and I stayed impactful in the game, I found that the choices available to me after having played for a while limited me from playing what I wanted my character to actually do. I wanted to be a supportive tank fighter, and the cavalier wasn’t quite out yet. The psi warrior or tube Knight weren’t around either.
The level 1 dip into peace domain would provide you and your party with a great support option that increases your offense and defense. The 2nd level dip into peace domain would provide a channel divinity option that is a shortrest dependent heal combined with the dash and disengage actions as a single action. It has quite a bit of value, but takes your action. It’s going to be more of a last ditch effort on your part when a team member or two goes down. This means you shouldn’t use it u til you need it, and it’s dead weight of f not being used, powerful though it may be when needed.
The twilight option is a bit more limited in its effectiveness as a 1 level dip, but the second level channel divinity is exceedingly powerful and easier to use without being wasteful. Having a short rest dependent feature that creates dim light that follows you and also has the ability to give out temporary hitpoints at the end of a creatures turn or end status conditions with no further action required is ridiculous. The temporary hitpoints on average would roughly be comparable to you somehow giving your entire party the damage reduction from the heavy armor master feat, except it’s effective against all damage and the average would soak up 5.5 damage vs 3. this is with just the 2 level dip.
id try to figure out if you wanted to go 11 fighter and then dip or 5 fighter and then dip. Your extra attack features are important build breakpoints. 5 gives you that first extra attack to stay a damage dealer at tier two, but dipping out at this tear you will find your offense lagging a bit and probably equaling out to the paladin as they get more smite slots. Level 11 will solidify your offensive capabilities while allowing you to have received that first extra ASI.
i personally like the 2 dip in twilight since preventing damage is almost always going to be feel and be effective in an encounter. Even in a situation where there’s no BBEG and the DM starts with horde mode, some of those weaker mobs are going to land hits. This will conserve your parties hit die and resources for emergency purposes when those are actually needed.
how high a level does your table plan on continuing your games?
You will continue to be effective regardless of your choice, but you may not like the way that you find yourself playing. My first character was a fighter champion, which I was recommended to play by some friends due to its simplicity. While I was slightly less effective than a battlemaster of the same type, and I stayed impactful in the game, I found that the choices available to me after having played for a while limited me from playing what I wanted my character to actually do. I wanted to be a supportive tank fighter, and the cavalier wasn’t quite out yet. The psi warrior or tube Knight weren’t around either.
We plan to get to the higher level possible. The goal is level 20, though I have read most players never make it and most campaigns tend to finish around 15 level. Nevertheless, I was considering in a multi-class after level 11, for the Extra attack 2. Maximum dip of 3 levels.
As I said before, we are using only the basic classes from Player's Handbook (because we are all newbies, and it was a ton of information to begin), so Twilight and Peace are not available domains for me. It would be unfair for the other members of the Party if I choose something out of the original scope.
Since yesterday, I have been considering most of the suggestions. A 3 level Ranger dip, for survival in the wilderness (we have NO survivalists) with some offensive spells (Ensnaring strike, Hunter's Mark) and utilitary (Goodberry); extra fighting style (Defense), and Colossus Slayer Archetype to get a little extra damage.
A level 3 Cleric dip...
War Domain. Improve my killing effectiveness with Guided Strike + Trip Attack + Action Surge; while being able to cast Shield of Faith on a companion.
Trickster Domain. Distracting enemies with Invoke Duplicity for advantage on attacks. Possible uses outside combat with Pass without trace, Blessing of the Trickster.
Life Domain. Supportive for the party with Cure Wounds, and Bless. But, not so powerful, and I could take those 2 spells as prepared spells with the previous 2 domains. Also, the Domain features Disciple of Life and Preserve Life won't be so powerful.
I’d go with either war cleric or ranger. If I went ranger I’d only dip 3 or 4 levels though, not 5. Would maybe even dip life cleric for 1 level for additional slot progression and very good disciple of life synergy for good berry.
with your stats, feat plans, and party composition bless will be much more effective a spell than hunters Mark. If effects multiple party members. It also lets you land more hits with your GWM feat, and your party members will be more effective too.
Greetings.
I'm a first timer on DnD, as well as everyone in my party. We are a Wizard, a Monk, a Paladin, and my character is a Fighter. We started at lvl 3 because our DM deemed it better since we were all novice. The thing is that mostly, everyone is more focused on doing damage during battle; than to support.
In the past 2 or 3 sessions, our Wizard has improved a lot in it's craftiness, changing the field tide during battles. Our Monk is the Ninja/Acrobat/Kung-Fu warrior. I'm the serious damage dealer. Our Paladin (the only healer) prefers to go on the offensive too. For example, in the last session I failed a saving throw and got pretty injured from an enemy spell. I was close to our Paladin, and he decided that it would be better to go fight than to heal/help me.
So, even though I tried to min/max my character for the most damage dealer build possible, I'm starting to feel that I should not depend on our Paladin for support, and I need to be more self-sufficient, sacrificing some offensive power to a more balanced build to be more supportive to my party.
I'm a lvl 4 Human Variant Battle Master with a Halberd as weapon.
Standard array: STR 16, CON 15, WIS 13, DEX 12, INT 10, CHA 8.
Feats: Polearm Master, Sentinel.
Style: Great Weapon Fighting.
My min/max plan for the build is to keep the Battle Master all the way to lvl 20, improving it with Great Weapon Master, Lucky, Resilient (WIS), Martial Adept (Extra Sup. die), and STR ASI.
My thought for a more "balanced" build is to multi-class 3 levels into Barbarian to get Rage and Bear Totem; and to exchange Martial Adept for the Healer feat.
In doing so, I will lose the Extra Attack 3 from the lvl 20 Fighter, 1 ASI, and 1 extra Sup. die. In exchange, I will be able to heal myself and the party, and be a little more tanky during ugly battles. My character does not trust in the gods, so he can't be a Cleric, Paladin, Warlock; or anything like that.
Do you think it's a fair trade? Should I stick with my original min/max plan? Are there better options?
Thank you.
P.S: If I posted this in the wrong place, I would kindly ask the moderators to move it to the proper place.
Okay, firstly welcome to the game. You have raised a number of issues and I will try and explain them to you.
Tabletop D&D is not like computer games, you don't have people standing there doing nothing but heal the other party members. Healing spells are very inefficient and not really worth it except as an absolute last resort. The Paladin's player was absolutely correct in choosing to attack the enemy rather than heal you. He has just 3 first level spell slots to last the entire day, and he is far better off using them to cast shield of faith on himself or smite the bad guys with them. He also doesn't get cantrips so can't even cast spare the dying once you go down. As a fighter though you have access to second wind and can heal yourself once per short rest and it is actually going to heal more than the paladin can with a healing spell. In 5th ed nobody has a 'holy duty' to heal you. You need to help yourself - take short rests between fights, use potions and scrolls, healers kit for emergencies.
As for your build - you can't use Battle Master abilities while raging so that would be pointless, you will also only get 3 rages per day which is also not really worth it. The healer feat cannot be used to heal yourself - you use it on an unconscious party member. It is commonly thought of as being really bad unless you are completely support or a dedicated healer. It is a really bad swap as you can't wear heavy armour either.
With a dex of 12 and no shield you are looking at an AC of around 14-16 so you are going to get battered. The barbarian unarmoured defence will be an ac of just 13. As a fighter you can get heavy armour and even without a shield plate will get you an ac of 18.
A frontline tank with an AC of 16 or less is why you are getting hurt so much, and is down to your build - a fighter starts with either leather giving you ac 12 or chain mail giving you ac 16 and with a strength score of 16 your damage is going to be ok but not great, meaning it takes you longer to put your enemy down, giving them more chances to lay the smack down on you. If I worked it out right you have +6 to hit and do 1d10+3 and an extra 1d4+3 if you manage to hit with both attacks, but your BM abilities will increase your combat effectiveness by knocking enemies prone or doing additional damage etc. The barbarian bonuses for resistance and +2 damage only apply when raging and as I mentioned you only get 3 per day, it is a bad trade off.
You can't multiclass into Bard, Monk, Ranger, Paladin, Sorcerer, Wizard or Warlock by RAW because your stats are too low, you only have the choice of Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, or Rogue. Personally I would go for Cleric. Not all Clerics even believe or follow gods, some believe in abstract ideas, elemental forces and they would definitely be my first choice if I were you. Druid can also be very good for utility due to wildshape. Circle of stars would absolutely be my choice
That said I would actually concentrate on the important things get your armour class as high as you can, ask your DM if you can change your fighting style to protection for +1 (Tasha's books have rules for changing it at level 4.and grab a shield which will then raise your AC by 3, use a longsword when you are facing skilled opponents, fight tactically - you should be teaming up with your paladin to get advantage on all your enemies. Focus your attacks so you both attack the same one and hopefully kill one per round. Let your monk and wizard go for spell casters and archers.
Most importantly - don't tell other people how to play their character, your idea of fun and their idea of fun are probably not be the same, and you will end up arguing and the game will get unfun for everyone.
Wait, why can’t you use Battlemaster while Raging?
But, yes, Paladins CAN be well made for support and healing, but their primary role is tanking, smiting, and using Lay on Hands to give KO’d people 1 HP.
I could have sworn I read that you couldn't but a quick re=read and it would seem I am wrong.
Yes, a paladin can be built to heal, almost any character can, but the OP is demanding that the paladin be a healer as he considers it to be the paladin's holy duty. That's just not right, and clearly the paladin's player hasn't built a heal bot or they would be healing.In combat healing is just really bad action economy.
Agreed. My Grave Cleric doesn’t heal anyone unless they are at zero for very obvious reasons.
Sir, maybe I expressed myself the wrong way.
I'm not demanding to be healed. Our Paladin can play any way he likes. If he wants to go on full-offense, I'm not going to tell him how to play his character.
That's the reason why I'm asking for guidance to be, myself, a more supportive character for our party. That's all...
The pro move is to react in character to the Paladin leaving you to die, and hash out the argument in character. Playing without a real healer (a full caster with healing spells, however you accomplish that) is hard mode DnD anyway, so since you're in the deep end, may as well start swimming.
For starters, your statline makes no sense. As a variant human with the standard array, your statline should be 16/14/14/12/10/8. Why are you CON 15 WIS 13 rather than CON 14 WIS 14? For seconders, Great Weapon Fighting is a garbage fighting style. It's improving your Halberd damage from 5.5 to 6.3 and your bonus action damage from 2.5 to 3. You'd be better off with Defense, especially if you want to stand on the front line and tank while also wielding a two-handed weapon instead of a shield. For thirders, GWM with Str 16 means you'll basically never land a hit - at level 6, against the AC DnD is built to assume you're swinging at, you're going to be at 60% accuracy base, and GWM will drop you to 35%. You'll do negligibly more damage than +2 Str would get you, and you won't be any better at Athletics or Str saves. You should gun for Str instead - it'll make you better at Shove and increase the save DCs of your maneuvers.
The Healer feat is pretty bad. You're better off focusing on preventing damage in the first place, which is what a tank is for. That said, a level 3 Barbarian has almost no rages, so Rage and Bear Totem is not a credible source of preventing damage.
Step 1: Be better at tanking. Will your GM let you fix your stats? How wealthy are you and your party? There's no really valid excuse for being a DEX 12 Fighter - your best choices (out the gate) are DEX 8, DEX 10, DEX 14, or DEX 16. Or DEX 18 with Custom Lineage from Tasha's, which is Variant Human but better. The only options that fit you are 8, 10, and 14. You should be wearing a Breastplate (if Dex 14) or Splint mail (if Dex 10 or 8) by level 3. Here's a fixed statline for you, assuming you're stuck with Variant Human:
STR 16 CON 14 WIS 14 CHA 12 DEX 10 INT 8. AC: 17 in Splint, 18 in Splint with Defense or in Plate, 19 in Plate with Defense.
Step 2: If you're still really concerned about taking damage, switch from a Halberd to a Shield and a Spear. Your Polearm Master and Sentinel feats will both still work, and you'll get +2 AC at the cost of Reach. If you have a pack of spears, PAM's bonus action attack must be melee, but the Attack action attacks can be ranged, so you can chuck a spear, move, draw a spear, and finish attacking without losing any attacks.
Step 3: Get your Strength up. Once you're a more credible attacker, tanking will also be easier. Remember, you can Shove anything within reach.
My apologies, that's how it came across, and I notice that you have edited your post to remove your references to it being the Paladin's holy duty to heal you.
One other thing you could do is take the Magic Initiate (Cleric) feat which will allow you to pick up 2 cleric cantrips and get a 1st level spell which you can use once per day. Spare the Dying is usually not a great choice but it might come in handy (realistically it is no better than using a healers kit except they cost money and have only 10 uses per kit so can run out). Then I would take an attack cantrip like Sacred Flame or Toll the Dead. They both have pro's and cons to using them though. For the spell I would look at taking Healing word over Cure Wounds, it heals less (1d4+wis against 1d8+wis) but you can use it as a bonus action rather than your full action and you can do it at a decent range rather than needing to touch the target. This means that you can cast it on a downed party member while still making your attack and not having to move over and touch them. They then would be responsible for getting themselves up, disengaging and taking a healing potion. It isn't huge but it will be a life saver when a party member goes down.
Your stats are fine. You’ve set yourself up to be able to take several half feats to round out abilities scores and still gain feat abilities. Being a fighter gives you more ASIs to spend on stats and feats anyways.
level 6 you can choose between more strength, or half feats for potentially wisdom or constitution.
the strength bonus would make your damage progress upward naturally through increased accuracy and damage. Killing things before they kill you is a great way to reduce the damage potential against you and your party.
rounding up constitution would increase your maximum hitpoints, increase con save that is mostly targeted by poison effects, and slightly boost your healing on short rests when using hit die. Skill expert from tashas could be a nice way to round this out and gain expertise in athletics. The crusher feat can be used to increase your constitution and move your target around. If you roll a critical you and your allies have advantage on attacks against that target until the start of your next turn. A quarterstaff can be used to gain these benefits while dealing bludgeoning damage.
choosing the feat resilient for wisdom will make your most commonly targeted mental save much more robust. Wisdom saves often incapacitate or take away actions in some way, which leaves you a sitting duck while making your offense useless until you pass a save. I’d pick this at level 8 regardless of what you do at level 6. This will provide synergy with the indomitable feature you start gaining at level 9. Rerolling an important failed save is a bit more effective if you already have a good chance to pass. At higher levels the lack of proficiency will actually make some saves impossible to beat regardless of rerolling.
on a side note, if you can get the paladin to take the inspiring leader feat then your whole party will be more tanky. The refillable temporary hitpoints are awesome, and are kind of like healing you before you need it. The feat doesn’t cost other resources and leaves the spell slots available for smiting. If your paladin friend makes use of a bonus action attack, perhaps from two weapon fighting or some other source, they will have ridiculous burst potential when you need it.
also, what maneuvers are working with?
I forgot to put my maneuvers...
Trip Attack, for gaining advantage, when I get multiple attacks at lvl 5.
Riposte, because I want to have as much triggers as possible to use my Reaction.
Precision Attack, thinking in the future, for Great Weapon Mastery.
The Feats I'm thinking:
Great Weapon Master (lvl 6), Resilient (lvl 8), Martial Adept (lvl 12), Lucky (lvl 14). But, I'm still not convinced about Martial Adept... 1 more Sup. Dice doesn't seem as a big improvement for me. Maybe Heavy Armor Master would be better.
Martial adept may not be as valuable to pick up until level 14 or 16. The level 15 subclass ability actually works together with the martial adept feat, allowing you to gain 2 die back when you roll initiative with no superiority die.
riposte is a great maneuver, but usually when multiclassing into rogue or some other class with reliable high damage on single attacks. Pushing attack may prove to be a bit more useful considering your party composition.
Your wizard is about to start get getting access to AOE spells that have lingering effects at the cost of concentration. Many of them will reroll a save when the creatures are forced back into the effects area. This may drastically increase your parties effectiveness by way of teamwork, as these damages can usually be done again on each creatures turn with crafty allies. The paladin should have access to thunderous smite, which can do similar things. Your monk can make use of stunning strikes, or other resources depending on subclass.
heavy armor master is actually more effective than most people give it credit for, but most people DMs don’t much want to be bothering having to check every single attack for magical wording on the creatures they choose. It can really big down gameplay. If that’s something your table is fine with, then it’s a perfectly valid choice.
About the Maneuvers, at lvl 7 I'm planning to get Pushing Attack and Parry.
About Martial Adept, I didn't know it can synergize with Relentless...
About Heavy Armor Master, I don't think my DM will be bothered by it. Also, if I switch style from Great Weapon Fighting to Defense, I could be a little more tanky without the need of multi-class. Or, another option could be that I wear a Shield, and get Shield Master instead of HAM. Could be useful to compensate for my low DEX.
I would like to avoid multi-class if possible. But if I had to, which one would you recommend me?
Cleric would be obvious choice if you could find a RP reason to go that way.
alternatively, get 3 levels of swarmkeeper ranger. It give you access to good berry and even magehand to deliver the berries to downed party members. And the ability to extricate yourself from melee or push opponents 15 feet is also very useful
what’s more, u get hunters mark (deadlier, since u are a fighter with multi attack n action surge), absorb elements to be tankier n also a second fighting style
The way I roleplay my character, is someone that is not too social. CHA for me is not so important, even if it means that I can't persuade or negociate. The Paladin is usually the face of our Party. DEX 12 means that I'm trying to put a little effort into dodging AOE spells. INT, for me, it's more important than CHA, that's why I put it at 10.
I like the shield suggestion. I could continue using my Halberd as main weapon, and swap to lance + shield when the situation compels me to.
I think there are a few decent options when it comes to multiclassing. Dipping a single level out permanently takes away the potential for 4 attacks at level 20, but play at that level is very limited.
1 level dips.
cleric: peace domain. Some useful cantrips, Proficiency with probably insight, emboldening bond, two level 1 spell slots, limited ritual casting, and probably 2-3 spells prepared. The bless spell, along with your emboldening bond, could drastically increase your parties offense and defense. Bless and emboldening are ridiculously effective as it increases the minimum and maximum possible on rolls which stacks with advantage. You naturally have proficiency in concentration saves, and your concentration is much better spend on bless than a full casters concentration would be. If you know a situation is incredibly dire, you can even set bless and emboldening bond up on the same turn with your action surge. The number of uses of emboldening bond also scales up with proficiency bonus, so that o e level dip will only get more reliable over time.
cleric: twilight domain. Solves the darkvision issue you may face by being human, along with allies if necessary. Advantage on initiative is also an incredibly potent effect. Same access to a few spells like bless that dont require high wisdom scores to be effective.
ranger. Tashas brings the ranger in with a few new abilities. You still get your d10 hitdie, but now you have the option of choosing class features. A skill, expertise, once per turn extra damage to a single creature requiring concentration but leaving your bonus action available.
barbarian does give rage, which does indeed increase your defense dramatically. It’s limited to 2 uses per long rest at level 1. The rage damage bonus would stack with every strength based melee attack you make with your halberd while raging.
idk exactly what your going for, but some of these dips would be potent and scale well with level and proficiency.
As I said in my first post, my intention is to be more supportive to my party, since everyone wants to go on offensive and we have no real healer.
Is it better to make some adjustments to my current character, and make it a little more tanky so I don't depend on Healing/Potions so much? (We have low gold, and not much potions).
Would a multi-class offer me enough supportive means (Healing, Buffs, Utilitary, Debuffs to enemies) to compensate for hindering my offensive capabilities? And, if so, which class offers me the best cost/benefit?
I'm just trying to evaluate my options since I'm at level 4, and that gives me room to adjust my build. Also, we are only using the basic options from the Player's Handbook 5e.
You can cut the cost of your healing potions in half with herbalism kit proficiency - but you also increase the time cost (rules are in Xanathar's). You can also use Tasha's to plead with the GM for a Sidekick with healing spells, if the party is this hard-up for a cleric. Sidekicks make your fights harder, since they count as a full PC for CR purposes but are worse than full PCs, but it could be worth it for having a healing supply.
A 1-level dip into the Peace Domain is one of the most powerful 1-level dips in the game, especially combined with the pally's Aura of Protection, but it would be better on the Pally than on you - the Pally would suffer nerfed spell slot progression, unlike you, but dialing Aura of Protection up to 7.5 is just obnoxiously good.
The level 1 dip into peace domain would provide you and your party with a great support option that increases your offense and defense. The 2nd level dip into peace domain would provide a channel divinity option that is a shortrest dependent heal combined with the dash and disengage actions as a single action. It has quite a bit of value, but takes your action. It’s going to be more of a last ditch effort on your part when a team member or two goes down. This means you shouldn’t use it u til you need it, and it’s dead weight of f not being used, powerful though it may be when needed.
The twilight option is a bit more limited in its effectiveness as a 1 level dip, but the second level channel divinity is exceedingly powerful and easier to use without being wasteful. Having a short rest dependent feature that creates dim light that follows you and also has the ability to give out temporary hitpoints at the end of a creatures turn or end status conditions with no further action required is ridiculous. The temporary hitpoints on average would roughly be comparable to you somehow giving your entire party the damage reduction from the heavy armor master feat, except it’s effective against all damage and the average would soak up 5.5 damage vs 3. this is with just the 2 level dip.
id try to figure out if you wanted to go 11 fighter and then dip or 5 fighter and then dip. Your extra attack features are important build breakpoints. 5 gives you that first extra attack to stay a damage dealer at tier two, but dipping out at this tear you will find your offense lagging a bit and probably equaling out to the paladin as they get more smite slots. Level 11 will solidify your offensive capabilities while allowing you to have received that first extra ASI.
i personally like the 2 dip in twilight since preventing damage is almost always going to be feel and be effective in an encounter. Even in a situation where there’s no BBEG and the DM starts with horde mode, some of those weaker mobs are going to land hits. This will conserve your parties hit die and resources for emergency purposes when those are actually needed.
how high a level does your table plan on continuing your games?
You will continue to be effective regardless of your choice, but you may not like the way that you find yourself playing. My first character was a fighter champion, which I was recommended to play by some friends due to its simplicity. While I was slightly less effective than a battlemaster of the same type, and I stayed impactful in the game, I found that the choices available to me after having played for a while limited me from playing what I wanted my character to actually do. I wanted to be a supportive tank fighter, and the cavalier wasn’t quite out yet. The psi warrior or tube Knight weren’t around either.
We plan to get to the higher level possible. The goal is level 20, though I have read most players never make it and most campaigns tend to finish around 15 level. Nevertheless, I was considering in a multi-class after level 11, for the Extra attack 2. Maximum dip of 3 levels.
As I said before, we are using only the basic classes from Player's Handbook (because we are all newbies, and it was a ton of information to begin), so Twilight and Peace are not available domains for me. It would be unfair for the other members of the Party if I choose something out of the original scope.
Since yesterday, I have been considering most of the suggestions. A 3 level Ranger dip, for survival in the wilderness (we have NO survivalists) with some offensive spells (Ensnaring strike, Hunter's Mark) and utilitary (Goodberry); extra fighting style (Defense), and Colossus Slayer Archetype to get a little extra damage.
A level 3 Cleric dip...
War Domain. Improve my killing effectiveness with Guided Strike + Trip Attack + Action Surge; while being able to cast Shield of Faith on a companion.
Trickster Domain. Distracting enemies with Invoke Duplicity for advantage on attacks. Possible uses outside combat with Pass without trace, Blessing of the Trickster.
Life Domain. Supportive for the party with Cure Wounds, and Bless. But, not so powerful, and I could take those 2 spells as prepared spells with the previous 2 domains. Also, the Domain features Disciple of Life and Preserve Life won't be so powerful.
I’d go with either war cleric or ranger. If I went ranger I’d only dip 3 or 4 levels though, not 5. Would maybe even dip life cleric for 1 level for additional slot progression and very good disciple of life synergy for good berry.
with your stats, feat plans, and party composition bless will be much more effective a spell than hunters Mark. If effects multiple party members. It also lets you land more hits with your GWM feat, and your party members will be more effective too.