We all know it, we all love it (or at least combat)…Initiative.
For a long time, I have developed several questions for this number:
1. What uses are there for a high initiative inside combat? (Straightforward answer is “going first” but how much does this actually help?)
There are countless sources of an additional bonus to initiative to the base dex mod, such as War Magic Wizard’s Tactical Wit or the Alert feat. What uses would an Initiative Min-Maxer Have?
2. What are some examples where it would be appropriate to roll initiative outside of combat, since your initiate modifier (and dex saves occasionally) represents your reaction time?
What brought this up is what I have seen in some campaigns I have played and seen others play. Sometimes, a character has to do something fast with their hands, largely depending on that character’s reflexes. Most of the time when this happens, the DM has the character roll Sleight of Hand. But this doesn’t seem thematically accurate.
Other times, it comes up whether a player can do something in time, such as dumping the contents of a bag of beans and teleporting away before they hit the ground(another forum), in which case some people were taking absolute extremes, such as simply “No, you take the bean damage” or “You get away, taking no damage”. But it seems more appropriate to me to use the numerical representation of the character’s reaction speed — their initiative mod — to add a measure of chance to the thing.
For instances where you are trying to do a single action very quickly which may or may not be possible an appropriate dex based ability check would be appropriate depending on the task I would probably ask for either straight dex or acrobatics. No roll should be made if what is attempted is certain to either succeed or fail, casting a spell takes time and the dm is perfectly at liberty to say that time is longer that it takes for the balls to hit the ground. If they are casting teleportation circle to escape there is no chance they would avoid damage!
1. What uses are there for a high initiative inside combat? (Straightforward answer is “going first” but how much does this actually help?)
High initiative grants you effectively 1 extra turn in combat. If most of your combats are 1-2 rounds this is a huge advantage, if you routinely fight 6-10 round combats it doesn't really make a difference.
2. What are some examples where it would be appropriate to roll initiative outside of combat, since your initiate modifier (and dex saves occasionally) represents your reaction time?
Anything where you are trying to react quickly to something, e.g. - defusing a bomb before it goes off, trying to grab an item before someone else can stop you, getting through a door that suddenly begins to close, stopping one of your party members from doing something stupid, hiding before a guard that suddenly turns around a corner can see you, grabbing the reins of a horse before it suddenly runs away in a panic, dodging an obstacle you failed to spot while skiing, etc...
What brought this up is what I have seen in some campaigns I have played and seen others play. Sometimes, a character has to do something fast with their hands, largely depending on that character’s reflexes. Most of the time when this happens, the DM has the character roll Sleight of Hand. But this doesn’t seem thematically accurate.
Other times, it comes up whether a player can do something in time, such as dumping the contents of a bag of beans and teleporting away before they hit the ground(another forum), in which case some people were taking absolute extremes, such as simply “No, you take the bean damage” or “You get away, taking no damage”. But it seems more appropriate to me to use the numerical representation of the character’s reaction speed — their initiative mod — to add a measure of chance to the thing.
Sleight of Hand isn't about speed, it is about subtly, many things you do with your hands require subtly thus would be Sleight of Hand. Teleporting away before a bag of beans hits the ground is definitely possible but would require holding an action to cast the teleportation spell, then possibly a Sleight of Hand check to precisely throw the bag so that it will dump its contents when it hits the ground but not immediately.
See I think you are confusing held actions to do something that requires finesse, which would be a Sleight of Hand check, with suddenly reacting to something unexpected, which would be an Initiative check. Basically, if you were anticipating something it isn't Initiative, it's a held action, if you weren't anticipating something it is Initiative.
1. What uses are there for a high initiative inside combat? (Straightforward answer is “going first” but how much does this actually help?)
There are countless sources of an additional bonus to initiative to the base dex mod, such as War Magic Wizard’s Tactical Wit or the Alert feat. What uses would an Initiative Min-Maxer Have?
Going at top of the combat order has several advantages, but here are few:
1) Ability to activate features and resources before the enemy can attack. 2) Strategic positioning 3) Battlefield control - this includes manipulation of the battle map and potentially forcing your opponents on the actions than can(not) take. 4) Making adjustments and responding to the flow of combat in the later rounds 5) Influence the direction of the round
2. What are some examples where it would be appropriate to roll initiative outside of combat, since your initiate modifier (and dex saves occasionally) represents your reaction time?
Any encounter. Rolling for initiative helps the DM keep an order and flow to the game. It helps keeping players form talking over each other or one player monopolizing the actions. Some GMs might just use table positioning instead of rolling or based on the encounter use another ability score to dictate the order of action. But initiative can be used to play our any scene and to keep the timing of actions in line with the rules.
What brought this up is what I have seen in some campaigns I have played and seen others play. Sometimes, a character has to do something fast with their hands, largely depending on that character’s reflexes. Most of the time when this happens, the DM has the character roll Sleight of Hand. But this doesn’t seem thematically accurate.
I agree with your observation here. The DM should simply ask for dexterity checks and apply proficiency bonus if the character can use a tool they are proficient with. Sleight of Hand is a deceptive dexterity check it doesn't apply to every technique that requires a savvy approach or precision with use of one's hands.
Other times, it comes up whether a player can do something in time, such as dumping the contents of a bag of beans and teleporting away before they hit the ground(another forum), in which case some people were taking absolute extremes, such as simply “No, you take the bean damage” or “You get away, taking no damage”. But it seems more appropriate to me to use the numerical representation of the character’s reaction speed — their initiative mod — to add a measure of chance to the thing.
I am not following this example. First thing that comes into my mind is that a character has only one action per round. So unless the character can gain an extra action or one of these acts can be taken as either a Bonus Action or Reaction then both cannot be achieved simultaneously. This is why a spell like Misty Step is so beneficial; it allows the character to instigate an act and then teleport to avoid the ramifications on the same turn.
Initiative establish turn order which matter more in the 1st round to determine first to last, after that, every turn just occur in order. In short combat that are over in 1-2 rounds, high initiative has more impact than longer fights.
Outside combat, initiative can be useful to determine turn order whenever Dexterity has an impact such as for trap, contest and skill challenge.
Other non-DEX turn order usually rely on straight d20, such as when determining treasure selection or watch tour order for exemple, because the character's ability score shouldn't be a factor for pure randomness.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I'd say outside of combat initiative is useful if you have a situation where multiple characters are attempting to act simultaneously, or when you need to track a relatively short period of time like a "you have 5 minutes until the bomb detonates" scenario.
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We all know it, we all love it (or at least combat)…Initiative.
For a long time, I have developed several questions for this number:
1. What uses are there for a high initiative inside combat? (Straightforward answer is “going first” but how much does this actually help?)
There are countless sources of an additional bonus to initiative to the base dex mod, such as War Magic Wizard’s Tactical Wit or the Alert feat. What uses would an Initiative Min-Maxer Have?
2. What are some examples where it would be appropriate to roll initiative outside of combat, since your initiate modifier (and dex saves occasionally) represents your reaction time?
What brought this up is what I have seen in some campaigns I have played and seen others play. Sometimes, a character has to do something fast with their hands, largely depending on that character’s reflexes. Most of the time when this happens, the DM has the character roll Sleight of Hand. But this doesn’t seem thematically accurate.
Other times, it comes up whether a player can do something in time, such as dumping the contents of a bag of beans and teleporting away before they hit the ground(another forum), in which case some people were taking absolute extremes, such as simply “No, you take the bean damage” or “You get away, taking no damage”. But it seems more appropriate to me to use the numerical representation of the character’s reaction speed — their initiative mod — to add a measure of chance to the thing.
Initiative is for any situation where timing matters.
If player 1 says "my character does this" and player 2 says, "wait my character does that first" - roll initiative.
If a player says "my character does this before the foe has a chance to react" - roll initiative (probably using the Surprise rules).
For instances where you are trying to do a single action very quickly which may or may not be possible an appropriate dex based ability check would be appropriate depending on the task I would probably ask for either straight dex or acrobatics. No roll should be made if what is attempted is certain to either succeed or fail, casting a spell takes time and the dm is perfectly at liberty to say that time is longer that it takes for the balls to hit the ground. If they are casting teleportation circle to escape there is no chance they would avoid damage!
High initiative grants you effectively 1 extra turn in combat. If most of your combats are 1-2 rounds this is a huge advantage, if you routinely fight 6-10 round combats it doesn't really make a difference.
Anything where you are trying to react quickly to something, e.g. - defusing a bomb before it goes off, trying to grab an item before someone else can stop you, getting through a door that suddenly begins to close, stopping one of your party members from doing something stupid, hiding before a guard that suddenly turns around a corner can see you, grabbing the reins of a horse before it suddenly runs away in a panic, dodging an obstacle you failed to spot while skiing, etc...
Sleight of Hand isn't about speed, it is about subtly, many things you do with your hands require subtly thus would be Sleight of Hand. Teleporting away before a bag of beans hits the ground is definitely possible but would require holding an action to cast the teleportation spell, then possibly a Sleight of Hand check to precisely throw the bag so that it will dump its contents when it hits the ground but not immediately.
See I think you are confusing held actions to do something that requires finesse, which would be a Sleight of Hand check, with suddenly reacting to something unexpected, which would be an Initiative check. Basically, if you were anticipating something it isn't Initiative, it's a held action, if you weren't anticipating something it is Initiative.
Going at top of the combat order has several advantages, but here are few:
1) Ability to activate features and resources before the enemy can attack.
2) Strategic positioning
3) Battlefield control - this includes manipulation of the battle map and potentially forcing your opponents on the actions than can(not) take.
4) Making adjustments and responding to the flow of combat in the later rounds
5) Influence the direction of the round
Any encounter. Rolling for initiative helps the DM keep an order and flow to the game. It helps keeping players form talking over each other or one player monopolizing the actions. Some GMs might just use table positioning instead of rolling or based on the encounter use another ability score to dictate the order of action. But initiative can be used to play our any scene and to keep the timing of actions in line with the rules.
I agree with your observation here. The DM should simply ask for dexterity checks and apply proficiency bonus if the character can use a tool they are proficient with. Sleight of Hand is a deceptive dexterity check it doesn't apply to every technique that requires a savvy approach or precision with use of one's hands.
I am not following this example. First thing that comes into my mind is that a character has only one action per round. So unless the character can gain an extra action or one of these acts can be taken as either a Bonus Action or Reaction then both cannot be achieved simultaneously. This is why a spell like Misty Step is so beneficial; it allows the character to instigate an act and then teleport to avoid the ramifications on the same turn.
Initiative establish turn order which matter more in the 1st round to determine first to last, after that, every turn just occur in order. In short combat that are over in 1-2 rounds, high initiative has more impact than longer fights.
Outside combat, initiative can be useful to determine turn order whenever Dexterity has an impact such as for trap, contest and skill challenge.
Other non-DEX turn order usually rely on straight d20, such as when determining treasure selection or watch tour order for exemple, because the character's ability score shouldn't be a factor for pure randomness.
Bugbears care. Assassins care. Bugbear Assassins really care.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I'd say outside of combat initiative is useful if you have a situation where multiple characters are attempting to act simultaneously, or when you need to track a relatively short period of time like a "you have 5 minutes until the bomb detonates" scenario.