ok, but seriously, i love the concept of multiclassing: taking parts from other classes and combining them with others to make something potentially better without slowing down the build too much. However, I still lack the experience of other players and thus have many questions. One of these is the feat warcaster and when/it to take it.
1. My first build is meant to he my “main,” a Divine Soul 17/Hexblade 3. I only have room for four feats/ASI’s in this build and am stuck with using Warcaster as my Divine Soul 16 ability. So does that mean Hexblade needs to be my endgame? I love the idea of using a shield with my pact weapon, but need to put in Fey Touched/Actor, +2 Charisma and my Metamagic Adept feat first to optimize it, right? (Note that I don’t want to really abuse Custom Origin/Variant Human and have already considered those.)
2. My second one is meant to be my “Master of Disguise”, a Conquest 2/Sword 18, complete with a disguise kit, disguise self, actor and tounges. However, this build has no real room for Warcaster. My Variant Human has Fey Touched, Actor, +2 Strength, +2 Strength, and +2 Charisma. I realize this multiclass uses two different focuses; the Paladin Shield and the Swords Bard Sword. So, is it basically one of those “juggling” acts they talk about to use this multiclass without warcaster, or is it more/less of a deal than I am making it?
3. Finally is a special build as it reminds of my father, and thus is #1’s father also, a Battle Smith 3/Eldritch Knight 17. I am also the most lost as to what to do with this multiclass. Not only must i choose between either having 2 weapons and no shield or a shield but no thieves tools, but there are so many feats/asi, and yet I have no idea which ones to pick besides fey touched and int +2. It’s currently a Custom Lineage with Warcaster since I figure it will be using either two melee weapons (WHICH TWO?) or a weapon and shield. Is this even necessary?
thank you for reading! If you have any questions, thoughts, contents or answers please let me know!
Hi Action (because I was suppose to say hi back :P).
Here are some suggestions/feedback for your builds. For build 1 I would say drop the 3rd level of Warlock. Since you will be using a 1-handed weapon with a shield you really have no need for Pact of the Blade as Hex Warrior already fulfills the needs for using your CHA to attack with a 1-handed weapon. The question of when you need Warcaster is really dependent on the playstyle you are envisioning for the character. If you are mostly staying back with powerful control spells and Eldritch Blasts then the Warcaster feat can be delayed until after you max out your CHA. However if you are more likely to be a up close and personal type of combatant then Warcaster should be taken first before anything else especially if you plan on concentrating on spells like Spirit Guardians or Hypnotic Pattern that tend to draw a lot of hate from enemies. Metamagic Adept should pretty much be taken last as a cherry on top type of feat as the other options (maxing CHA and Warcaster) are a bit more important than a couple more Sorcery Points and Metamagic options.
For build 2 to work you will need to drop a level of Bard in order to go Conquest Paladin because the 3rd level is when Paladins get their subclass options. A possible solution to your Warcaster dilemma is to do Mountain Dwarf and put +2 into both STR and CHA (provided you are using Tasha's optional rule to let you move the racial bonuses). This lets you max both STR and CHA with 3 ASIs so that it frees up a spot with which you can take Warcaster with. Losing 5ft of movement can be annoying though so careful considerations will be required if you wish to follow this suggestion.
Build 3 is actually the most flexible because of the extra ASIs granted by the Fighter class. If you are torn between having the Bonus Action attack of wielding 2 weapons vs the survivability of a sword and shield setup then the Polearm Master feat might give you the best of both worlds.
A final thought, while we all love to theory craft builds all the way up to level 20, you should keep in mind that games that reach all the way to level 20 are quite a rarity so you should also make some builds that top out at around the level 10-12 mark.
....need to put in Fey Touched/Actor, +2 Charisma and my Metamagic Adept feat first to optimize it, right?
Hi Action.
This probably isn't exactly the advice you want to hear, but you don't need to optimize anything. When theory crafting, it's very fun to optimize - but if you're struggling with this choice because you want to include it in the majority of your game (Rather than only get a few sessions squeezed out; if the game even lasts to 16), then you should just take it earlier.
It also looks like you're creating builds with 'no weakness': being self reliant and covering all bases. That's not exactly the style of DND - your first two builds are vastly primarily squishy full-casters. They shouldn't need a shield, unless you want to wield one just for the aesthetic. Consider what you want to accomplish with the character: a spellcasting sword&board user would probably have more martial in them - your first build doesn't even have access to Extra Attack (if I'm reading between the lines correctly, that you want to be a melee focused character, based on you using a pact weapon).
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I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
I'm not too sure what you are trying to accomplish with these builds, and in general you aren't going to be playing at level 20 hardly at all (I've been playing D&D for 4 years and have never played at level 20). So you should really focus on builds that will do what you want them to do between levels 5-10.
For you build #1: you'd optimize this by starting 1-Divine Soul then 2-Hexblade to pick up Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast plus armour & shield proficiency, then go the rest Divine Soul using Quicken Spell - EB to break the game in terms of damage, and comboing medium armour + shield + Shield spell to break the game in terms of defense. Not sure why you are talking about using a sword here when you don't have Extra Attack..
For your build #2: why is this a master of disguise? It's just a swords bard that can Smite. If you want a Master of Disguise, you want 2 levels of Archfey Warlock for Mask of Many Faces + 3 levels of Eloquence Bard for impossibly high charisma skills.
For your build #3: why would you use two-weapon fighting? Your steel defender requires a BA to use, so you should go sword + board, to leave the BA free for your defender.
(thanks for saying Hi. Hopefully everyone got the joke)
The main reason I took 3 levels in Warlock was i thought it gave me a spellcasting focus, but I forgot it was only with Improved Pact Weapon. Now I guess I would be going with a 18/2 build and choosing between a weapon and a shield to go with my spellcasting focus. I know I said i didn’t want to go Custom Lineage, but I decided it was the best way to work Warcaster in early. From there i will start 1 level in Sorcerer and follow with the two levels in Warlock, so thanks for that. As far as weapons went i just liked the idea of finding a staff i could use to cast extra stuff with, but didn’t think that counted as an arcane focus. Does it?
i didn’t really set out to make a Master of Disguise Paladin/Bard; it just sort of happened where one spell or feat led to another. I don’t entirely understand the Archfey/Eloquence build, but I can look into it. Oh, and the conquest part was my mistake; I forgot i didn’t have a subclass. I did try mountain dwarf once and couldn’t get it to work, but I can always try again!
finally, i didn’t realize i needed a BA to control my Battle Smith pet. That being said, I’m not sure if having only 3 levels in Artificer makes it even viable to use. I’ll look into Poelarm Master though! If I‘m going sword and board, should i just start with fighter and pick up thieves tools later?
i do realize I’m probably never going to see level 20 and must prioritize. It’s mostly just for fun! thanks again for all your comments! Any others are welcome!
From there i will start 1 level in Sorcerer and follow with the two levels in Warlock, so thanks for that. As far as weapons went i just liked the idea of finding a staff i could use to cast extra stuff with, but didn’t think that counted as an arcane focus. Does it?
Any staff that can be used to cast spell is also a spellcasting focus, so you are worrying over nothing. If you don't have extra attack you should not be using a weapon, so just go full sorcerer. If you take a Warlock dip just pick up Eldritch Mind as an Invocation and then you don't need Warcaster.
ArchFey Warlock -> Mask of Many Faces is unlimited Disguise Self, they also get a level 1 feature that charms creatures in an area without costing a spell slot.
Eloquence Bard -> expertise which you can put into Deception / Persuasion / Intimidation, and they get a 3rd level ability that guarantees them a 10 on the d20 for Persuasion and Deception checks.
Add on the Actor feat, and you can look like anyone, sound like anyone and have a guaranteed 20 on every Deception/Persuasion check at level 6.
In combat you have Eldritch Blast + Agonizing blast + Hex for reliable damage.
However, disclaimer: the Sorcerer-Warlock is not a fun build for the other people at the table so I don't encourage people to actually use it. Because it is among the few ways to truly lose at D&D : Being so unfun to play with that you are disinvited from a game.
From there i will start 1 level in Sorcerer and follow with the two levels in Warlock, so thanks for that. As far as weapons went i just liked the idea of finding a staff i could use to cast extra stuff with, but didn’t think that counted as an arcane focus. Does it?
Any staff that can be used to cast spell is also a spellcasting focus, so you are worrying over nothing. If you don't have extra attack you should not be using a weapon, so just go full sorcerer. If you take a Warlock dip just pick up Eldritch Mind as an Invocation and then you don't need Warcaster.
ArchFey Warlock -> Mask of Many Faces is unlimited Disguise Self, they also get a level 1 feature that charms creatures in an area without costing a spell slot.
Eloquence Bard -> expertise which you can put into Deception / Persuasion / Intimidation, and they get a 3rd level ability that guarantees them a 10 on the d20 for Persuasion and Deception checks.
Add on the Actor feat, and you can look like anyone, sound like anyone and have a guaranteed 20 on every Deception/Persuasion check at level 6.
In combat you have Eldritch Blast + Agonizing blast + Hex for reliable damage.
However, disclaimer: the Sorcerer-Warlock is not a fun build for the other people at the table so I don't encourage people to actually use it. Because it is among the few ways to truly lose at D&D : Being so unfun to play with that you are disinvited from a game.
So in theory, could I still try to impersonate someone without actor? I mean my current build has two methods of disguise and eventually tounges.
Wow. I knew it was powerful, but i never expected it to be game breaking. You’ve given me a lot to think about for my 100th comment on here. I guess all i can do is go over it with my DM in advance and hope for the best.
Thank you all for bringing these points to light!
i’ve been very appreciate of the community here :)
Since reading these comments, I have done some adjusting.
3: The Custom Lineage Eldritch Knight/Battlesmith has actually been reversed this way so I can get heavy armor. It’s abilities/feats are Fey Touched (Hex), Int + 2, War Caster, Tough, Con + 2, Con +2, and Con +2.
2. I decided Warcaster and Strength needed to be my focus for my Paladin/Sword Bard with Charisma filling up the last few slots. The only half feat i “needed” was actor, but with tougnes and disguises I’m hoping I can get away with it, or at least be able to look like bo one specific like a guard.
1. After soul searching, I decided to reject the darkness and come back to the light by being a pure Divine Sorcerer. …but I’m still a little worried it’ too metagamey. I switched Custom Lineage for my favorite race Verdan since War Caster was no longer needed and made my Fey Touch Hex since I now needed that. The only other feat i took was tough and maxed first my charisma and then my constitution so I could benefit the most from healing half my health as a bonus action at level 18.
My name is Action, and I’m a multiclasser
(…you’re suppose to say hi back)
ok, but seriously, i love the concept of multiclassing: taking parts from other classes and combining them with others to make something potentially better without slowing down the build too much. However, I still lack the experience of other players and thus have many questions.
One of these is the feat warcaster and when/it to take it.
1. My first build is meant to he my “main,” a Divine Soul 17/Hexblade 3. I only have room for four feats/ASI’s in this build and am stuck with using Warcaster as my Divine Soul 16 ability. So does that mean Hexblade needs to be my endgame? I love the idea of using a shield with my pact weapon, but need to put in Fey Touched/Actor, +2 Charisma and my Metamagic Adept feat first to optimize it, right? (Note that I don’t want to really abuse Custom Origin/Variant Human and have already considered those.)
2. My second one is meant to be my “Master of Disguise”, a Conquest 2/Sword 18, complete with a disguise kit, disguise self, actor and tounges. However, this build has no real room for Warcaster. My Variant Human has Fey Touched, Actor, +2 Strength, +2 Strength, and +2 Charisma. I realize this multiclass uses two different focuses; the Paladin Shield and the Swords Bard Sword. So, is it basically one of those “juggling” acts they talk about to use this multiclass without warcaster, or is it more/less of a deal than I am making it?
3. Finally is a special build as it reminds of my father, and thus is #1’s father also, a Battle Smith 3/Eldritch Knight 17. I am also the most lost as to what to do with this multiclass. Not only must i choose between either having 2 weapons and no shield or a shield but no thieves tools, but there are so many feats/asi, and yet I have no idea which ones to pick besides fey touched and int +2. It’s currently a Custom Lineage with Warcaster since I figure it will be using either two melee weapons (WHICH TWO?) or a weapon and shield. Is this even necessary?
thank you for reading! If you have any questions, thoughts, contents or answers please let me know!
Hi Action (because I was suppose to say hi back :P).
Here are some suggestions/feedback for your builds. For build 1 I would say drop the 3rd level of Warlock. Since you will be using a 1-handed weapon with a shield you really have no need for Pact of the Blade as Hex Warrior already fulfills the needs for using your CHA to attack with a 1-handed weapon. The question of when you need Warcaster is really dependent on the playstyle you are envisioning for the character. If you are mostly staying back with powerful control spells and Eldritch Blasts then the Warcaster feat can be delayed until after you max out your CHA. However if you are more likely to be a up close and personal type of combatant then Warcaster should be taken first before anything else especially if you plan on concentrating on spells like Spirit Guardians or Hypnotic Pattern that tend to draw a lot of hate from enemies. Metamagic Adept should pretty much be taken last as a cherry on top type of feat as the other options (maxing CHA and Warcaster) are a bit more important than a couple more Sorcery Points and Metamagic options.
For build 2 to work you will need to drop a level of Bard in order to go Conquest Paladin because the 3rd level is when Paladins get their subclass options. A possible solution to your Warcaster dilemma is to do Mountain Dwarf and put +2 into both STR and CHA (provided you are using Tasha's optional rule to let you move the racial bonuses). This lets you max both STR and CHA with 3 ASIs so that it frees up a spot with which you can take Warcaster with. Losing 5ft of movement can be annoying though so careful considerations will be required if you wish to follow this suggestion.
Build 3 is actually the most flexible because of the extra ASIs granted by the Fighter class. If you are torn between having the Bonus Action attack of wielding 2 weapons vs the survivability of a sword and shield setup then the Polearm Master feat might give you the best of both worlds.
A final thought, while we all love to theory craft builds all the way up to level 20, you should keep in mind that games that reach all the way to level 20 are quite a rarity so you should also make some builds that top out at around the level 10-12 mark.
Hope this helps.
Hi Action.
This probably isn't exactly the advice you want to hear, but you don't need to optimize anything. When theory crafting, it's very fun to optimize - but if you're struggling with this choice because you want to include it in the majority of your game (Rather than only get a few sessions squeezed out; if the game even lasts to 16), then you should just take it earlier.
It also looks like you're creating builds with 'no weakness': being self reliant and covering all bases. That's not exactly the style of DND - your first two builds are vastly primarily squishy full-casters. They shouldn't need a shield, unless you want to wield one just for the aesthetic. Consider what you want to accomplish with the character: a spellcasting sword&board user would probably have more martial in them - your first build doesn't even have access to Extra Attack (if I'm reading between the lines correctly, that you want to be a melee focused character, based on you using a pact weapon).
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Hi Action,
I'm not too sure what you are trying to accomplish with these builds, and in general you aren't going to be playing at level 20 hardly at all (I've been playing D&D for 4 years and have never played at level 20). So you should really focus on builds that will do what you want them to do between levels 5-10.
For you build #1: you'd optimize this by starting 1-Divine Soul then 2-Hexblade to pick up Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast plus armour & shield proficiency, then go the rest Divine Soul using Quicken Spell - EB to break the game in terms of damage, and comboing medium armour + shield + Shield spell to break the game in terms of defense. Not sure why you are talking about using a sword here when you don't have Extra Attack..
For your build #2: why is this a master of disguise? It's just a swords bard that can Smite. If you want a Master of Disguise, you want 2 levels of Archfey Warlock for Mask of Many Faces + 3 levels of Eloquence Bard for impossibly high charisma skills.
For your build #3: why would you use two-weapon fighting? Your steel defender requires a BA to use, so you should go sword + board, to leave the BA free for your defender.
Interesting feedback
(thanks for saying Hi. Hopefully everyone got the joke)
The main reason I took 3 levels in Warlock was i thought it gave me a spellcasting focus, but I forgot it was only with Improved Pact Weapon. Now I guess I would be going with a 18/2 build and choosing between a weapon and a shield to go with my spellcasting focus. I know I said i didn’t want to go Custom Lineage, but I decided it was the best way to work Warcaster in early. From there i will start 1 level in Sorcerer and follow with the two levels in Warlock, so thanks for that. As far as weapons went i just liked the idea of finding a staff i could use to cast extra stuff with, but didn’t think that counted as an arcane focus. Does it?
i didn’t really set out to make a Master of Disguise Paladin/Bard; it just sort of happened where one spell or feat led to another. I don’t entirely understand the Archfey/Eloquence build, but I can look into it. Oh, and the conquest part was my mistake; I forgot i didn’t have a subclass. I did try mountain dwarf once and couldn’t get it to work, but I can always try again!
finally, i didn’t realize i needed a BA to control my Battle Smith pet. That being said, I’m not sure if having only 3 levels in Artificer makes it even viable to use. I’ll look into Poelarm Master though! If I‘m going sword and board, should i just start with fighter and pick up thieves tools later?
i do realize I’m probably never going to see level 20 and must prioritize. It’s mostly just for fun!
thanks again for all your comments! Any others are welcome!
Any staff that can be used to cast spell is also a spellcasting focus, so you are worrying over nothing. If you don't have extra attack you should not be using a weapon, so just go full sorcerer. If you take a Warlock dip just pick up Eldritch Mind as an Invocation and then you don't need Warcaster.
Master of Disguise:
ArchFey Warlock -> Mask of Many Faces is unlimited Disguise Self, they also get a level 1 feature that charms creatures in an area without costing a spell slot.
Eloquence Bard -> expertise which you can put into Deception / Persuasion / Intimidation, and they get a 3rd level ability that guarantees them a 10 on the d20 for Persuasion and Deception checks.
Add on the Actor feat, and you can look like anyone, sound like anyone and have a guaranteed 20 on every Deception/Persuasion check at level 6.
In combat you have Eldritch Blast + Agonizing blast + Hex for reliable damage.
However, disclaimer: the Sorcerer-Warlock is not a fun build for the other people at the table so I don't encourage people to actually use it. Because it is among the few ways to truly lose at D&D : Being so unfun to play with that you are disinvited from a game.
Even if i want to use a shield?
So in theory, could I still try to impersonate someone without actor? I mean my current build has two methods of disguise and eventually tounges.
Wow. I knew it was powerful, but i never expected it to be game breaking. You’ve given me a lot to think about for my 100th comment on here. I guess all i can do is go over it with my DM in advance and hope for the best.
Thank you all for bringing these points to light!
i’ve been very appreciate of the community here :)
UPDATE:
Since reading these comments, I have done some adjusting.
3: The Custom Lineage Eldritch Knight/Battlesmith has actually been reversed this way so I can get heavy armor. It’s abilities/feats are Fey Touched (Hex), Int + 2, War Caster, Tough, Con + 2, Con +2, and Con +2.
2. I decided Warcaster and Strength needed to be my focus for my Paladin/Sword Bard with Charisma filling up the last few slots. The only half feat i “needed” was actor, but with tougnes and disguises I’m hoping I can get away with it, or at least be able to look like bo one specific like a guard.
1. After soul searching, I decided to reject the darkness and come back to the light by being a pure Divine Sorcerer. …but I’m still a little worried it’ too metagamey. I switched Custom Lineage for my favorite race Verdan since War Caster was no longer needed and made my Fey Touch Hex since I now needed that. The only other feat i took was tough and maxed first my charisma and then my constitution so I could benefit the most from healing half my health as a bonus action at level 18.
Please take a look and tell me what you think: www.dndbeyond.com/sheet-pdfs/Actionsparda_123787807.pdf