As the thread title suggests, it seems like using a Sling you can combine the cantrips Magic Stone and True Strike for additional damage (especially using a Warlock).
It is often pointed out that the spell requires the weapon used to have a value of 1+cp, which likely excludes all magical created weapons.
On the other hand, I strongly suspect that's to make sure you can't try to cast it with a component pouch or arcane focus, but it's definitely an "ask your GM" question.
Hrm. As a DM I probably wouldn't allow it just because it's a 2014 spell trying to combo with a 2024 spell, and there are weird rules things happening as a result (2024 doesn't recognize a "ranged spell attack" any more, and which ability mod would you use if there are two separate casters -- the magic stone caster, or the true strike caster?)
That's before all the other issues I would have with the build, like thinking you get Total Cover from hiding in a backpack, or trying to double up the bonus damage from Agonizing Blast
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Hrm. As a DM I probably wouldn't allow it just because it's a 2014 spell trying to combo with a 2024 spell, and there are weird rules things happening as a result (2024 doesn't recognize a "ranged spell attack" any more, and which ability mod would you use if there are two separate casters -- the magic stone caster, or the true strike caster?)
There aren't any real rules issues -- the 24 rules have the equivalent of a ranged spell attack, the terminology is just different.
As for the question of whose mod gets used, it's irrelevant to this case, and, in the general case, the GM just has to rule. (Magic stone prevails IMO -- specific beats general, but it's really not very important.)
That's before all the other issues I would have with the build, like thinking you get Total Cover from hiding in a backpack, or trying to double up the bonus damage from Agonizing Blast
Out of curiosity, what about these things brings you to consider them issues? Would you be willing to elaborate? If so, thank you!
That's before all the other issues I would have with the build, like thinking you get Total Cover from hiding in a backpack, or trying to double up the bonus damage from Agonizing Blast
Out of curiosity, what about these things brings you to consider them issues? Would you be willing to elaborate? If so, thank you!
1) Cover requires an obstacle. A backpack doesn't qualify -- you might get the advantage of being Hidden prior to your first attack, but once you pop out and pop back in, everyone knows exactly where you are, and the material of a backpack isn't going to stop an arrow or a spell
You can't just toss a sheet over your head and expect to not get stabbed by a sword because it provides you with "total cover"
2) Stacking Agonizing Blast isn't explicitly against the rules as far as I know, but the RAI in general is very clearly that the same effect can't stack. If two people cast bless on you, you don't get to add 2d4 to your rolls. It would be the same here, at least for me
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
1) Backpack is made of leather and so is not insignificant in terms of protection. If you were concentrating fire on a backpack it would probably only have somewhere between 11-15ac and 10hp so yeah not a large barrier to overcome then.
I think you seem to be under the impression that the Warlock would need to pop in and out of the backpack - that is not the case with Gaze of Two Minds.
2) Yeah, I get that but it doesn’t break those rules as it doesn’t have a duration - I can see why that would put you off though
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D&D, Youth Work and the Priesthood sadly do not typically interact... I do what I can!
Hrm. As a DM I probably wouldn't allow it just because it's a 2014 spell trying to combo with a 2024 spell, and there are weird rules things happening as a result
So you would allow it if it just had a 2024 version?
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Hrm. As a DM I probably wouldn't allow it just because it's a 2014 spell trying to combo with a 2024 spell, and there are weird rules things happening as a result
So you would allow it if it just had a 2024 version?
You're asking me to make a ruling on an interaction between a spell that exists and a spell that doesn't?
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
1) Backpack is made of leather and so is not insignificant in terms of protection. If you were concentrating fire on a backpack it would probably only have somewhere between 11-15ac and 10hp so yeah not a large barrier to overcome then.
A backpack has no AC or HP, because the item description doesn't list any
I think you seem to be under the impression that the Warlock would need to pop in and out of the backpack - that is not the case with Gaze of Two Minds.
If your idea is to remain in the backpack, stick out just a pseudopod and throw a rock while seeing through the skeleton's eyes... then everyone on the battlefield still knows there's something in the backpack throwing rocks at them, and can react accordingly
Meanwhile, you have confined yourself to a 1 cubic foot area rather than the usual 5 cubic feet if you were out and about, and have no room to dodge incoming attacks whether you see them coming or not
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The "ranged spell attack" terminology absolutely does still exist in 2024, just look at any spell which makes a ranged attack like Fire Bolt or Eldritch Blast.
Essentially, you take the Magic action and make a ranged spell attack with a Sling's pebble. On a hit, the target takes 1d6 + your spellcasting ability modifier Radiant or Bludgeoning damage.
Hrm. As a DM I probably wouldn't allow it just because it's a 2014 spell trying to combo with a 2024 spell, and there are weird rules things happening as a result
So you would allow it if it just had a 2024 version?
You're asking me to make a ruling on an interaction between a spell that exists and a spell that doesn't?
Of course =) Theoretically
A few (at least) of the spells that have similar effects have been boosted in 2024 - Magic Weapon, Divine Favor, True Strike, Shillelagh, etc . If the spell had a 2024 tag and was exactly the same, would you allow what the OP wants? Seeing the current trend, Magic Stone might get a boost as well, would you allow an even more powerful Magic Stone to combine with True Strike then?
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
In terms of Backpack AC and HP I was using to the ‘Statistics for Objects’ reference table from the 2014 DMG as a rough guide.
Also I think you might have missed that you are able to cast spells using Gaze of Two Minds in 2024:
Gaze of Two Minds
Prerequisite: Level 5+ Warlock
You can use a Bonus Action to touch a willing creature and perceive through its senses until the end of your next turn. As long as the creature is on the same plane of existence as you, you can use a Bonus Action on subsequent turns to maintain this connection, extending the duration until the end of your next turn. The connection ends if you don't maintain it in this way.
While perceiving through the other creature's senses, you benefit from any special senses possessed by that creature, and you can cast spells as if you were in your space or the other creature's space if the two of you are within 60 feet of each other.
In terms of Backpack AC and HP I was using to the ‘Statistics for Objects’ reference table from the 2014 DMG as a rough guide.
LOL. You gave a cloth backpack the same AC and HP as a wooden chest
I'm sure you can find the right DM and campaign for this kind of cheese, but it won't be me. Good luck on that skeleton surviving its first AoE. Hope it isn't flying at the time
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
2024 has simple rules for Breaking Objects as well as tables with AC & HP based on substances and size.
Breaking Objects: As an action, you can automatically break or otherwise destroy a fragile, nonmagical object, such as a glass container or a piece of paper. If you try to damage something more resilient, the DM might use the rules on breaking objects in the Rules Glossary.
In terms of Backpack AC and HP I was using to the ‘Statistics for Objects’ reference table from the 2014 DMG as a rough guide.
LOL. You gave a cloth backpack the same AC and HP as a wooden chest
I'm sure you can find the right DM and campaign for this kind of cheese, but it won't be me. Good luck on that skeleton surviving its first AoE. Hope it isn't flying at the time
I get that you do not like the idea of this build, but your criticism contain misinformation. Backpack in 2024 does not mention material, so what does 2014 say? Backpack - that they are leather so it would be up to the DM to decide if leather is the equivalent to which of the following?
AC
Substance
11
Cloth, paper, rope
13
Crystal, glass, ice
15
Wood
which @Plaguescarred has helpfully shown, are unchanged rules in 2024. Then determine size which is less based on opinion:
Size
Fragile
Resilient
Tiny (bottle, lock)
2 (1d4)
5 (2d4)
Small (chest, lute)
3 (1d6)
10 (3d6)
Medium (barrel, chandelier)
4 (1d8)
18 (4d8)
A Backpack is clearly a ‘small’ object, and would have to be resilient rather than fragile… So, as I said: ‘somewhere between 11-15ac and 10hp’ - because it is a worn object, this would have to be specifically targeted too.
When it comes to being one-shot by an AOE, only some adult dragons can deal over 60hp average on their breath weapons and by then we are cr15+ because the Skeleton can have 30+ hp and resistance at lv6 with this build… and that gets higher later on!
As the thread title suggests, it seems like using a Sling you can combine the cantrips Magic Stone and True Strike for additional damage (especially using a Warlock).
Does this work, I’ve theory crafted a build for it: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/warlock/227131-backpack-warlock
I don't see why you couldn't.
It is often pointed out that the spell requires the weapon used to have a value of 1+cp, which likely excludes all magical created weapons.
On the other hand, I strongly suspect that's to make sure you can't try to cast it with a component pouch or arcane focus, but it's definitely an "ask your GM" question.
In this case the Sling is a nonmagical weapon worth 1+ cp used to hurl the Magic Stone.
Hrm. As a DM I probably wouldn't allow it just because it's a 2014 spell trying to combo with a 2024 spell, and there are weird rules things happening as a result (2024 doesn't recognize a "ranged spell attack" any more, and which ability mod would you use if there are two separate casters -- the magic stone caster, or the true strike caster?)
That's before all the other issues I would have with the build, like thinking you get Total Cover from hiding in a backpack, or trying to double up the bonus damage from Agonizing Blast
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yeah, ok. I totally forgot that you could use a sling with magic stone. It's legit.
There aren't any real rules issues -- the 24 rules have the equivalent of a ranged spell attack, the terminology is just different.
As for the question of whose mod gets used, it's irrelevant to this case, and, in the general case, the GM just has to rule. (Magic stone prevails IMO -- specific beats general, but it's really not very important.)
Out of curiosity, what about these things brings you to consider them issues? Would you be willing to elaborate? If so, thank you!
1) Cover requires an obstacle. A backpack doesn't qualify -- you might get the advantage of being Hidden prior to your first attack, but once you pop out and pop back in, everyone knows exactly where you are, and the material of a backpack isn't going to stop an arrow or a spell
You can't just toss a sheet over your head and expect to not get stabbed by a sword because it provides you with "total cover"
2) Stacking Agonizing Blast isn't explicitly against the rules as far as I know, but the RAI in general is very clearly that the same effect can't stack. If two people cast bless on you, you don't get to add 2d4 to your rolls. It would be the same here, at least for me
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
1) Backpack is made of leather and so is not insignificant in terms of protection. If you were concentrating fire on a backpack it would probably only have somewhere between 11-15ac and 10hp so yeah not a large barrier to overcome then.
I think you seem to be under the impression that the Warlock would need to pop in and out of the backpack - that is not the case with Gaze of Two Minds.
2) Yeah, I get that but it doesn’t break those rules as it doesn’t have a duration - I can see why that would put you off though
So you would allow it if it just had a 2024 version?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
You're asking me to make a ruling on an interaction between a spell that exists and a spell that doesn't?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
A backpack has no AC or HP, because the item description doesn't list any
If your idea is to remain in the backpack, stick out just a pseudopod and throw a rock while seeing through the skeleton's eyes... then everyone on the battlefield still knows there's something in the backpack throwing rocks at them, and can react accordingly
Meanwhile, you have confined yourself to a 1 cubic foot area rather than the usual 5 cubic feet if you were out and about, and have no room to dodge incoming attacks whether you see them coming or not
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The "ranged spell attack" terminology absolutely does still exist in 2024, just look at any spell which makes a ranged attack like Fire Bolt or Eldritch Blast.
Essentially, you take the Magic action and make a ranged spell attack with a Sling's pebble. On a hit, the target takes 1d6 + your spellcasting ability modifier Radiant or Bludgeoning damage.
Of course =) Theoretically
A few (at least) of the spells that have similar effects have been boosted in 2024 - Magic Weapon, Divine Favor, True Strike, Shillelagh, etc . If the spell had a 2024 tag and was exactly the same, would you allow what the OP wants? Seeing the current trend, Magic Stone might get a boost as well, would you allow an even more powerful Magic Stone to combine with True Strike then?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
@AntonSirius
In terms of Backpack AC and HP I was using to the ‘Statistics for Objects’ reference table from the 2014 DMG as a rough guide.
Also I think you might have missed that you are able to cast spells using Gaze of Two Minds in 2024:
Gaze of Two Minds
Prerequisite: Level 5+ Warlock
You can use a Bonus Action to touch a willing creature and perceive through its senses until the end of your next turn. As long as the creature is on the same plane of existence as you, you can use a Bonus Action on subsequent turns to maintain this connection, extending the duration until the end of your next turn. The connection ends if you don't maintain it in this way.
While perceiving through the other creature's senses, you benefit from any special senses possessed by that creature, and you can cast spells as if you were in your space or the other creature's space if the two of you are within 60 feet of each other.
LOL. You gave a cloth backpack the same AC and HP as a wooden chest
I'm sure you can find the right DM and campaign for this kind of cheese, but it won't be me. Good luck on that skeleton surviving its first AoE. Hope it isn't flying at the time
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
2024 has simple rules for Breaking Objects as well as tables with AC & HP based on substances and size.
I get that you do not like the idea of this build, but your criticism contain misinformation. Backpack in 2024 does not mention material, so what does 2014 say? Backpack - that they are leather so it would be up to the DM to decide if leather is the equivalent to which of the following?
which @Plaguescarred has helpfully shown, are unchanged rules in 2024. Then determine size which is less based on opinion:
A Backpack is clearly a ‘small’ object, and would have to be resilient rather than fragile… So, as I said: ‘somewhere between 11-15ac and 10hp’ - because it is a worn object, this would have to be specifically targeted too.
When it comes to being one-shot by an AOE, only some adult dragons can deal over 60hp average on their breath weapons and by then we are cr15+ because the Skeleton can have 30+ hp and resistance at lv6 with this build… and that gets higher later on!