I made a previous post a few weeks ago but things have changed since then. If you saw it, forget everything about it!
So, I'm trying to build myself a tanky/support type of character. I'm my party's sole source of healing and other spells outside the Battle Smith artificer who's not really a supportive build outside of his Infusions.
Though my DM is open to changing my Oath if it makes sense moving forward in the story, right now, the only Oath that made sense for my Paladin is the Oath of Vengeance. I am currently level 4 (Pal 3/Hexblade 1). Stats are currently 13/14/16/11/12/20 Custom Lineage. I know, I probably shouldn't have picked Hexblade at all considering I'll be getting Gauntlets of Ogre Power for sure once we reach level 10 whether my DM wants to give them to me or not (through the Artificer's infusions) but it seemed like a good idea at the time due to lessening the MADness necessary for my Pal/Sorc build plans and now I'm stuck with it. Otherwise, I'd probably make a Pal 6/DS 14 if only for the awesome Angelic Form ability but now that is unattainable.
Current "short-term" goal is to reach Pal 6 ASAP for the Aura of Protection and then move onto Sorcerer (Divine Soul) levels up to CL12 (Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 5) to reach 3rd level "SorCleric" spells as fast as possible. I don't actually want most of the sorcerer spells, this character is the main tank and will constantly be in melee concentrating on buff and support spells with the occasional smite mixed in. Anything that isn't a healing/buff spell or that has a range bigger then like 10 feet I won't even consider. It just doesn't fit the concept.
Planned feat progression:
1st level: Skill Expert (CHA)
Pal 4/Hex 1: War Caster
Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 4: Shield Master
*3rd ASI: Resilient: CON
*4th ASI: "Celestial Constitution" - Trying to get my DM to let me pick a homebrewed Aasimar equivalent of the Tiefling racial "Infernal Constitution" to round out CON to 18.
* If the DM won't let me, I may substitute both feats to something like Tough + Inspiring Leader, TBD. Either way, it won't change the build too much.
Since I've already taken the Hexblade level, I thought about several build options past CL12, two of which are here:
Build 1 - Pal 6/Hex 5/DS 9 Spell slots up to 6th level: 4/3/3/3/2/1 Pact Magic: 2x 3rd level slots (recharge on short rest) Notable "unique" spells: Cantrips: Minor Illusion 1st level: Detect Magic, Divine Favor, Find Familiar (from Pact Boon) 2nd level: Mirror Image 3rd level: None 4th level: None 5th level: None Don't get any actual 6th level spells, just slots Other unique features: Get Chain Pact Boon and the Investment of the Chain Master, Gift of the Ever Living Ones and either Voice of the Chain Master or anything else that could be useful (Devil's Sight, Grasp of Hadar, Beguiling Influence, etc.)
Build 2: Pal 9/Hex 2/DS 9 Spell slots up to 7th level: 4/3/3/3/2/1/1 Pact Magic: 2x 1st level slots (recharge on short rest) Notable "unique" spells: Cantrips: None 1st level: None 2nd level: None 3rd level: Crusader's Mantle, Protection From Energy 4th level: None 5th level: Greater Restoration Don't get any actual 6th or 7th level spells, just slots Other unique features: Can't get the Pact Boon, get two lesser invocations that aren't that useful to me (Devil's Sight/Grasp of Hadar/Beguiling Influence). Could easily switch to Pal 9/Hex 1/DS 10 for the 3rd metamagic option instead and lose one 1st level pact magic slot.
I also considered other things such as Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 13 or Pal 6/Hex 3/DS 11 (ditched that one due to -1 ASI/Feat) and Pal 8/Hex 1/DS 11 but, despite the higher spell slots, the only one spell I would grab from the 6th level spell list would be "Heal" and from the 7th level spell list would be "Regenerate" and/or "Resurrection", both of which I don't feel are really necessary. Thus, I settled on the two options above. I've been leaning towards Build 1 a little more but speaking about it with the Artificer in the party, I'm not sure if its the better option. It does "feel" more versatile due to the 2 short rest 3rd level slots but I do lose the 7th level slot which gives back a little more SP per long rest if you think about it or can be used to buff up something further (such as Spiritual Guardians). We usually get about 1 short rest and 1 long rest per adventuring day.
What would you do in my shoes to be as efficient as possible as the party's main tank and main source of support? Build 1 or Build 2 and most importantly, why? Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 5 is a given at this point, I'm just wondering how to keep building him after that. Any other ideas that I did not consider? The Warlock spell list does not feel very supportive or "buff-y" to me, a few self-only buffs and many typical long range "caster/blaster-type" spells that I don't feel fit with the character concept at all. Its the whole reason I decided to go on the Sorcerer (DS) side of things which allowed me to get more spell slots than I ever could if I stayed as a Paladin while also giving me more supportive options to play with.
Do you have any numbers you can estimate of how many times your party needs to be healed per combat or per day, how many party members need healing per combat, how much total healing you need to do? If your party is big enough/capable enough that the only time you're healing is when somebody gets knocked unconscious, the answer is probably different than if you've got a small group that needs to be healed mid-combat.
In my experience, a combat is 3-5 rounds, and there are 2-3 combats per day with one short rest. In regular fights, I would expect that there really only needs to be at most one mid-combat heal, if someone gets knocked unconscious, but that during a boss battle you might need two or three heals to brings folks back up or avoid them going unconscious. Most healing happens during short rests or between fights without a rest, meaning it isn't so much about how flexible your healing action economy is, but more about the total amount of healing you can do with spells, potions, feats, items, etc.
But if you experience with the group is different, and the group DOES need lots of healing in combat.... you need to be a spellcaster sooner than later, probably. Sorcerer or cleric or druid or Bard levels, probably.
So far, not so much during combat at all actually except once when we were still level 2, I've done my tank job fairly well and I'm usually the target of most attacks. My max HP is currently 45 but I did go down to 20-ish HP in the last encounter we had but thankfully we managed to clean up quickly enough that I could heal outside of combat. One bad roll on that last round though and I would have needed to spend my action healing on that one round of combat.
We've only had maybe 5-6 encounters so far so it's hard to say.
As for the caster class, indeed, that's why I'm getting out of the Paladin class as soon as I hit Aura of Prot for that sweet +5 saves to everybody and grabbing the Sorcerer levels up to 5 as my number 1 priority (Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 5). Its what comes after that that I remain unsure of.
Edit: To give you an idea of the kind of spells I'm going for, here's the two builds I mentioned above:
What 3rd level "SorCleric" spells are you particularly after. if you stay with paladin you will get 3rd level spells at character level 10 (warlock 1 paladin 9), if you if you go to DSS you wont get it them until level 12 (warlock 1, Paladin 6, DSS 5). You wont get healing word but it is rare to need to heal ,ultiple characters oin the same turn in combat and you get access to dispel magic and revivify as a paladin. At CL 12 Sticking with paladin also gives you aura of courage, improved diivne smite which are both big gains.
If you know you are going to go to Hex 1, pal 6 DSS 5 I would't worry about what to do beyond that for a while. It will be months before you hit CL 12 and by then your character will have developed and your party needs may have changed
Not just for third level but, as you said, Healing Word, in addition to Absorb Elements, Spirit Guardians and Counterspell are the big ones from the "SorCleric" spell list. Nobody else gets Counterspell in the party. DS also lets me get many 4th/5th level spells that I can't get from Paladin without going 17 levels in it such as Death Ward, Mass Cure Wounds, Raise Dead, Greater Restoration and Holy Weapon and the metamagic aspects of Quicken/Twinned for support felt hard to pass up. Something that I can't do without the Sorcerer levels.
Actually, just went through the different builds and Build 2 is clearly the winner here if only for the "spells known" balance. Will probably end up going Pal 9/Hex 1/DS 10 just because the 3rd level Paladin spells free up so many spells I wanted from the limited amount of SorCleric spells known I can get (Aura of Vitality, Haste, Protection from Energy, Dispel Magic) and I also get an extra spell known and that second Hexblade level doesn't really bring much as well as delaying Sorcerer progression.
Now, from a progression perspective, I'm wondering if its best to rush for Pal 9/Hex 1 and go Sorc afterwards or if I should just do like I said at first and do Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 5 and then either drive up Pal 9 and finish my career in DS.
Hello!
I made a previous post a few weeks ago but things have changed since then. If you saw it, forget everything about it!
So, I'm trying to build myself a tanky/support type of character. I'm my party's sole source of healing and other spells outside the Battle Smith artificer who's not really a supportive build outside of his Infusions.
Though my DM is open to changing my Oath if it makes sense moving forward in the story, right now, the only Oath that made sense for my Paladin is the Oath of Vengeance. I am currently level 4 (Pal 3/Hexblade 1). Stats are currently 13/14/16/11/12/20 Custom Lineage. I know, I probably shouldn't have picked Hexblade at all considering I'll be getting Gauntlets of Ogre Power for sure once we reach level 10 whether my DM wants to give them to me or not (through the Artificer's infusions) but it seemed like a good idea at the time due to lessening the MADness necessary for my Pal/Sorc build plans and now I'm stuck with it. Otherwise, I'd probably make a Pal 6/DS 14 if only for the awesome Angelic Form ability but now that is unattainable.
Current "short-term" goal is to reach Pal 6 ASAP for the Aura of Protection and then move onto Sorcerer (Divine Soul) levels up to CL12 (Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 5) to reach 3rd level "SorCleric" spells as fast as possible. I don't actually want most of the sorcerer spells, this character is the main tank and will constantly be in melee concentrating on buff and support spells with the occasional smite mixed in. Anything that isn't a healing/buff spell or that has a range bigger then like 10 feet I won't even consider. It just doesn't fit the concept.
Planned feat progression:
* If the DM won't let me, I may substitute both feats to something like Tough + Inspiring Leader, TBD. Either way, it won't change the build too much.
Since I've already taken the Hexblade level, I thought about several build options past CL12, two of which are here:
Build 1 - Pal 6/Hex 5/DS 9
Spell slots up to 6th level: 4/3/3/3/2/1
Pact Magic: 2x 3rd level slots (recharge on short rest)
Notable "unique" spells:
Cantrips: Minor Illusion
1st level: Detect Magic, Divine Favor, Find Familiar (from Pact Boon)
2nd level: Mirror Image
3rd level: None
4th level: None
5th level: None
Don't get any actual 6th level spells, just slots
Other unique features: Get Chain Pact Boon and the Investment of the Chain Master, Gift of the Ever Living Ones and either Voice of the Chain Master or anything else that could be useful (Devil's Sight, Grasp of Hadar, Beguiling Influence, etc.)
Build 2: Pal 9/Hex 2/DS 9
Spell slots up to 7th level: 4/3/3/3/2/1/1
Pact Magic: 2x 1st level slots (recharge on short rest)
Notable "unique" spells:
Cantrips: None
1st level: None
2nd level: None
3rd level: Crusader's Mantle, Protection From Energy
4th level: None
5th level: Greater Restoration
Don't get any actual 6th or 7th level spells, just slots
Other unique features: Can't get the Pact Boon, get two lesser invocations that aren't that useful to me (Devil's Sight/Grasp of Hadar/Beguiling Influence). Could easily switch to Pal 9/Hex 1/DS 10 for the 3rd metamagic option instead and lose one 1st level pact magic slot.
I also considered other things such as Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 13 or Pal 6/Hex 3/DS 11 (ditched that one due to -1 ASI/Feat) and Pal 8/Hex 1/DS 11 but, despite the higher spell slots, the only one spell I would grab from the 6th level spell list would be "Heal" and from the 7th level spell list would be "Regenerate" and/or "Resurrection", both of which I don't feel are really necessary. Thus, I settled on the two options above. I've been leaning towards Build 1 a little more but speaking about it with the Artificer in the party, I'm not sure if its the better option. It does "feel" more versatile due to the 2 short rest 3rd level slots but I do lose the 7th level slot which gives back a little more SP per long rest if you think about it or can be used to buff up something further (such as Spiritual Guardians). We usually get about 1 short rest and 1 long rest per adventuring day.
What would you do in my shoes to be as efficient as possible as the party's main tank and main source of support? Build 1 or Build 2 and most importantly, why? Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 5 is a given at this point, I'm just wondering how to keep building him after that. Any other ideas that I did not consider? The Warlock spell list does not feel very supportive or "buff-y" to me, a few self-only buffs and many typical long range "caster/blaster-type" spells that I don't feel fit with the character concept at all. Its the whole reason I decided to go on the Sorcerer (DS) side of things which allowed me to get more spell slots than I ever could if I stayed as a Paladin while also giving me more supportive options to play with.
Do you have any numbers you can estimate of how many times your party needs to be healed per combat or per day, how many party members need healing per combat, how much total healing you need to do? If your party is big enough/capable enough that the only time you're healing is when somebody gets knocked unconscious, the answer is probably different than if you've got a small group that needs to be healed mid-combat.
In my experience, a combat is 3-5 rounds, and there are 2-3 combats per day with one short rest. In regular fights, I would expect that there really only needs to be at most one mid-combat heal, if someone gets knocked unconscious, but that during a boss battle you might need two or three heals to brings folks back up or avoid them going unconscious. Most healing happens during short rests or between fights without a rest, meaning it isn't so much about how flexible your healing action economy is, but more about the total amount of healing you can do with spells, potions, feats, items, etc.
But if you experience with the group is different, and the group DOES need lots of healing in combat.... you need to be a spellcaster sooner than later, probably. Sorcerer or cleric or druid or Bard levels, probably.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Hi Chicken_Champ!
So far, not so much during combat at all actually except once when we were still level 2, I've done my tank job fairly well and I'm usually the target of most attacks. My max HP is currently 45 but I did go down to 20-ish HP in the last encounter we had but thankfully we managed to clean up quickly enough that I could heal outside of combat. One bad roll on that last round though and I would have needed to spend my action healing on that one round of combat.
We've only had maybe 5-6 encounters so far so it's hard to say.
As for the caster class, indeed, that's why I'm getting out of the Paladin class as soon as I hit Aura of Prot for that sweet +5 saves to everybody and grabbing the Sorcerer levels up to 5 as my number 1 priority (Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 5). Its what comes after that that I remain unsure of.
Edit: To give you an idea of the kind of spells I'm going for, here's the two builds I mentioned above:
Build #1 (Pal 6/Hex 5/DS 9): https://ddb.ac/characters/47372160/RmI2HE
Build #2 (Pal 9/Hex 2/DS 9): https://ddb.ac/characters/46827738/9BoPZZ
What 3rd level "SorCleric" spells are you particularly after. if you stay with paladin you will get 3rd level spells at character level 10 (warlock 1 paladin 9), if you if you go to DSS you wont get it them until level 12 (warlock 1, Paladin 6, DSS 5). You wont get healing word but it is rare to need to heal ,ultiple characters oin the same turn in combat and you get access to dispel magic and revivify as a paladin. At CL 12 Sticking with paladin also gives you aura of courage, improved diivne smite which are both big gains.
If you know you are going to go to Hex 1, pal 6 DSS 5 I would't worry about what to do beyond that for a while. It will be months before you hit CL 12 and by then your character will have developed and your party needs may have changed
Not just for third level but, as you said, Healing Word, in addition to Absorb Elements, Spirit Guardians and Counterspell are the big ones from the "SorCleric" spell list. Nobody else gets Counterspell in the party. DS also lets me get many 4th/5th level spells that I can't get from Paladin without going 17 levels in it such as Death Ward, Mass Cure Wounds, Raise Dead, Greater Restoration and Holy Weapon and the metamagic aspects of Quicken/Twinned for support felt hard to pass up. Something that I can't do without the Sorcerer levels.
Actually, just went through the different builds and Build 2 is clearly the winner here if only for the "spells known" balance. Will probably end up going Pal 9/Hex 1/DS 10 just because the 3rd level Paladin spells free up so many spells I wanted from the limited amount of SorCleric spells known I can get (Aura of Vitality, Haste, Protection from Energy, Dispel Magic) and I also get an extra spell known and that second Hexblade level doesn't really bring much as well as delaying Sorcerer progression.
Now, from a progression perspective, I'm wondering if its best to rush for Pal 9/Hex 1 and go Sorc afterwards or if I should just do like I said at first and do Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 5 and then either drive up Pal 9 and finish my career in DS.