so, i've been playtesting a ranger character i made(or trying to) against a white dragon wyrmling. it occurs to me that such a match would potentially be an easy fight for the ranger, as he could use his move(or dash, if the little bastard decided to fly after him) to stay out of the dragon's range, picking it off from a safe distance with his longbow. the first such test, i forgot about the breath weapon, and a successful save throw kept me from becoming an ice cube. am i wrong here?
What is the ranger's stats? I have a hard time picturing anything less than a level 3 character soloing a white dragon wyrmling. (And level 3 is assuming optimal build and favorable environment).
its level 1, but what im saying is with a bow, couldnt he just use move and dash to stay out of range the whole fight? long as it didnt get initiative and open with breath weapon. longbow's range is150ft after all.
its level 1, but what im saying is with a bow, couldnt he just use move and dash to stay out of range the whole fight? long as it didnt get initiative and open with breath weapon. longbow's range is150ft after all.
Optimal conditions, sure you could solo it. But unless you have > 30 ft movement, it would get in range with the fly speed unless you were dashing with every turn. Theoretically, the wyrmling would simply herd you to a dead end with flight and unleash its breath attack. Meanwhile, without a bonus action attack or something like a rogue's cunning action to bonus action dash, you wouldn't be getting any damage in while it herds you.
Even if you had more than 30 ft speed - it could dash while flying too (120 ft per round). So it would very rapidly get close enough to be a problem.
As soon as it gets you within melee range of itself - you're going to have to risk opportunity attacks every time you want to shoot it or you will attack at disadvantage.
hmm. didnt know it could dash, that doesn't appear to be on the sheet. real problem, aside from its momma or big brother showing up, seemed to be freezing fog in the lair
Yea, monsters can dash, it isn't written on any sheets because it's a basic movement option. I think monsters can also make plain grapple or shove actions as well, but no point when they got strong attacks and moves.
Or vice versa, it could fly up out of range of the arrows. Or it could land in the forest, where you can't shoot a bow 150 feet without hitting the trees in the middle.
Note that a White Dragon Wymling has a *burrow* speed of 15 ft, so it could just burrow underground somewhere if it wanted to protect a particular area. Cant shoot an arrow through the ground!
hmm. didnt know it could dash, that doesn't appear to be on the sheet. real problem, aside from its momma or big brother showing up, seemed to be freezing fog in the lair
Yeah. Monster manual says this:
When a monster takes its action, it can choose from the options in the Actions section of its stat block or use one of the actions available to all creatures, such as the Dash or Hide action, as described in the Player’s Handbook.
And PHB Ch9 Combat says this:
This chapter provides the rules you need for your characters and monsters to engage in combat, whether it is a brief skirmish or an extended conflict in a dungeon or on a field of battle. Throughout this chapter, the rules address you, the player or Dungeon Master. The Dungeon Master controls all the monsters and nonplayer characters involved in combat, and each other player controls an adventurer. “You” can also mean the character or monster that you control.
Basically, anything you can do that isn't a race, class, or feat, any monster can also do (and humanoids can be the same race as you).
And you only have to worry about lair actions within the lair. If you encounter it in the wild (while it is hunting for example), it won't be a problem.
But I imagine the battle will go something like this:
Let's say we start at your full longbow range (not extended range) of 150 feet and you go first. I'll also assume you have a +4 to both DEX and CON and that your attacks always hit (though your accuracy would actually be 55%) and you succeed any save. Damage will always be average damage.
You shoot and move back 30 feet. Dragon dashes at you 120 feet. [DHP 24, YHP 14, distance 60]
You shoot and move back 30 feet. Dragon dashes right above you. [DHP 16, YHP 14, distance 5]
You move 30 feet, risk AoO 50% hit for 9 damage and shoot. If AoO hit, Dragon uses breath weapon 11 damage with successful save and kills you. If Woo missed Dragon borrows underground and stays within 10 feet of you for blindsight and uses Guerrilla tactics to kill you unless you run. [DHP 8, YHP 0 50% 14 50%, distance 5]
If you managed to roll over 10 3 times in a row and the Dragon rolled under 11 for its attack of opportunity (which is about an 8% chance, but dice hate to be predictable), it ends in a stalemate. In every other scenario you die by turn 3 or 4 (and it would take 2 crits to kill the Dragon a turn early, but only 1 crit from the Dragon to 1 shot you).
Maybe 1 more level for more HP and hunters mark would make the difference.
A pure ranger 3 will have a tough time kiting a wyrmling that can fly 60, but a Rogue 2/Ranger 2 Wood Elf with a Longbow can pull it off in a theoretical open field with no other terrain considerations. But as mentioned, burrowing is a problem since the dragon doesn't need to pop up until in range for a melee strike... but wyrmlings have animal level intelligence, up to a DM whether they'd be smart enough to hunt their pray in a slower but safer way.
Every round, you can move + bonus dash 90, while shooting 150/600 away. Yes, the wyrmling can dash 120... but you can move+bonus dash+ action dash 135 if necessary.
Longstrider will stay up for a full hour, which should be enough to make it through this fight without needing to recast. Which means you can use your other slot for Hunters Mark to speed things up a bit.
The white dragon wyrmling has a stealth bonus and a burrowing speed - IMO its much more likely to hunt by ambushing you from underground than by flying at you above ground, especially if it’s being shot at.
Animals don’t take very much intelligence to hunt well - IRL there are very few animals that just blindly run at their prey. Wolves hunt in packs, big cats stalk their prey before pouncing, spiders build webs. And anyway, Two combatants running at each other in an empty field (fox only, no items, final destination) isn’t really a situation you’ll run into often in DnD, I’d expect most DMs to put monsters in appropriate habitats for them.
The details of how the DM runs the encounter have too many variables to account for. Just saying mechanically, a run n gun ranger 2/rogue 2 has a flying wyrmling (or anything up to 60 speed) whooped
A Wood Elf ranger to with 18 Dex and Con could do it. White dragon wyrmling: 32 hp, 16 AC, 9 DPT (+4 to hit). Ranger 2: 20 hp, 17 AC (studded leather), DPT 14 (+8 to hit). The ranger can take it out in 3 turns, as the ranger is likely to hit most turns. If flying, the dragon will end up 95 ft from the ranger after 3 turns. Even then it can't attack.
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A Wood Elf ranger to with 18 Dex and Con could do it. White dragon wyrmling: 32 hp, 16 AC, 9 DPT (+4 to hit). Ranger 2: 20 hp, 17 AC (studded leather), DPT 14 (+8 to hit). The ranger can take it out in 3 turns, as the ranger is likely to hit most turns. If flying, the dragon will end up 95 ft from the ranger after 3 turns. Even then it can't attack.
You forgot the breath weapon which does 22 damage on failed save, 11 on success.
Studded leather with 18 DEX is 16 AC, and with 18 CON a level 2 ranger would have 24 HP. I'm also not sure where you are getting 14 damage per turn, with 18 DEX and Hunter's mark it would average 12.
But, yeah a level 2 ranger has a much better chance of winning assuming the wyrmling was spotted from a distance and there was nothing for it to take cover behind as it approached.
If the level 2 Ranger has 16+ Dexterity and the Archery fighting style, then they have a +7 to hit and are hitting the wyrmling for 1d8+3(average 7.5) on 9's+ ( 60% chance to hit), so an average of 4.5 damage per round. Average of 7+ rounds of hits to kill the wyrmling's 32 hp... But with a bonus 3.5/round from Hunters Mark, change that to a weighted 7 dmg/round and an average of 5 rounds to kill. If they start at range 150, a normal ranger with no speed enhancement or bonus dash is going to get bogged down in melee at the end of round 2, and then the wyrmling is likely to hit (+4 to hit against likely AC of 16, 45% chance, for 9 damage, average 4 damage per round) in melee or can take off half or all of the ranger's health with a single breath (45-60% of 22 damage, depending on ranger's CON, 100% of 11 damage)... all while the ranger has somewhere between 16-22 hp depending on Con. Within 4 rounds of being caught into melee, the ranger will die, so it's a tossup whether they can seal the deal in the 1-2 rounds they have after being caught.
Hunters Mark: Unlikely to win before round 5, but can easily die starting on round 3.
1: Attack @ 150 for average of 7, move +30 (180). Dragon dashes -120 (60).
3: [Switch to rapier for -2 to hit dropping weighted damage average to 55/round] Attack in melee for 5.5. Dragon either wins if save failed, or deals 11
4: Attack in melee for 5.5. Dragon deals average 4, or wins, if breath recharged.
5: Attack in melee for 5.5. Dragon either dies, or deals average 4 (wins if ranger has low Con), or wins, if breath recharged.
6: One more chance in melee for 5.5. Dragon either dies, or deals average 4 and definitely wins.
BUT, Wyrmlings have a crappy strength save (just +1), so a second level ranger with 16+ wisdom starting at 150 feet has a decent chance of ensnaring the wyrmling at least twice with Ensnaring Strike, and that arguably is more valuable than the Hunters Mark, since the Hunter's Mark ranger has to risk dying on round 3, while the Ensnaring Strike ranger can either avoid melee entirely or push that risk out to range 4, if they can just get two fails on the first casting or at least on fail on each casting?
DC 13 vs +1 save = 55% chance to apply, followed by 55% chance to keep it up each round. Even if the wyrmling breaks free the following round, they take 3.5 damage and used their action so can't fly as far... if the Ranger succesfully applies Ensnaring Strike twice with the dragon breaking free the following round each time, then that buys the ranger one more round out of melee; if the dragon fails 3+ saves, the Ranger is scott free; if the dragon only fails one save, the Ranger is so far behind on dps that it's not even worth spelling out and they're toast.
Ensnaring Strike: Unlikely to win before round 4 or 5, but has a good chance to avoid all danger until round 4 or 5
My math is already hard enough to follow so I won't edit, but actually Ensnaring Strike is even better/faster, because every time the dragon fails a save you get advantage. That bumps your weighted average damage up from 4.5 to something closer to 6.375; that's 4 more damage in the first scenario or 2 more in the second, making the round 4/round 6 wins slightly more likely.
But, yeah a level 2 ranger has a much better chance of winning assuming the wyrmling was spotted from a distance and there was nothing for it to take cover behind as it approached.
There’s almost always something to take cover behind. The ground, with its burrow speed.
The fight is no better than a draw for the ranger until the ranger is strong enough to take on the wyrmling in melee, because the wyrmling can negate any ranged attacks entirely by being underground
It’s a loss for the ranger if the ranger gets killed even when the dragon approaches by flight. And a win for the ranger only when the dragon gets beat even if it burrows and just guards.
There’s an interesting similar concept, only using adult dragons and a pact of the time warlock soloing them over the course of in-game days, on the warlocks thread, in the “are warlocks underpowered” post.
Short of creating “those kind” of characters that do 1-shot like damage (the 500+ avg dam 800+ max dam), soloing any level of dragon without being “over leveled”, is a lot easier said than actually done.
not even mentioned, but something to consider. Even if by chance you were pulling this off, of the wyrmling gets hurt enough it will either hide, or flee. This making you have to chase it. Which can very easily lead to your demise, or force you to restart after acquiring more arrows and re-finding the wyrmling.
sure if dragons are your favored enemy and you’re in your favored terrain you could track it well enough. But those readied action of an animal in fight or flight that’s wounded can be a killer.
heh, the first test i did, the damn thing kept rolling 6 on its recharge roll for the breath weapon, so i never thought to look up whether it normally takes a turn before it can use it again. still looking through the manual for that one
heh, the first test i did, the damn thing kept rolling 6 on its recharge roll for the breath weapon, so i never thought to look up whether it normally takes a turn before it can use it again. still looking through the manual for that one
It can use it 2 turns in a row if it recharges in 1 turn. Rules here:
so, i've been playtesting a ranger character i made(or trying to) against a white dragon wyrmling. it occurs to me that such a match would potentially be an easy fight for the ranger, as he could use his move(or dash, if the little bastard decided to fly after him) to stay out of the dragon's range, picking it off from a safe distance with his longbow. the first such test, i forgot about the breath weapon, and a successful save throw kept me from becoming an ice cube. am i wrong here?
What is the ranger's stats? I have a hard time picturing anything less than a level 3 character soloing a white dragon wyrmling. (And level 3 is assuming optimal build and favorable environment).
its level 1, but what im saying is with a bow, couldnt he just use move and dash to stay out of range the whole fight? long as it didnt get initiative and open with breath weapon. longbow's range is150ft after all.
Optimal conditions, sure you could solo it. But unless you have > 30 ft movement, it would get in range with the fly speed unless you were dashing with every turn. Theoretically, the wyrmling would simply herd you to a dead end with flight and unleash its breath attack. Meanwhile, without a bonus action attack or something like a rogue's cunning action to bonus action dash, you wouldn't be getting any damage in while it herds you.
Even if you had more than 30 ft speed - it could dash while flying too (120 ft per round). So it would very rapidly get close enough to be a problem.
As soon as it gets you within melee range of itself - you're going to have to risk opportunity attacks every time you want to shoot it or you will attack at disadvantage.
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hmm. didnt know it could dash, that doesn't appear to be on the sheet. real problem, aside from its momma or big brother showing up, seemed to be freezing fog in the lair
Yea, monsters can dash, it isn't written on any sheets because it's a basic movement option. I think monsters can also make plain grapple or shove actions as well, but no point when they got strong attacks and moves.
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Or vice versa, it could fly up out of range of the arrows. Or it could land in the forest, where you can't shoot a bow 150 feet without hitting the trees in the middle.
Note that a White Dragon Wymling has a *burrow* speed of 15 ft, so it could just burrow underground somewhere if it wanted to protect a particular area. Cant shoot an arrow through the ground!
Yeah. Monster manual says this:
And PHB Ch9 Combat says this:
Basically, anything you can do that isn't a race, class, or feat, any monster can also do (and humanoids can be the same race as you).
And you only have to worry about lair actions within the lair. If you encounter it in the wild (while it is hunting for example), it won't be a problem.
But I imagine the battle will go something like this:
Let's say we start at your full longbow range (not extended range) of 150 feet and you go first. I'll also assume you have a +4 to both DEX and CON and that your attacks always hit (though your accuracy would actually be 55%) and you succeed any save. Damage will always be average damage.
If you managed to roll over 10 3 times in a row and the Dragon rolled under 11 for its attack of opportunity (which is about an 8% chance, but dice hate to be predictable), it ends in a stalemate. In every other scenario you die by turn 3 or 4 (and it would take 2 crits to kill the Dragon a turn early, but only 1 crit from the Dragon to 1 shot you).
Maybe 1 more level for more HP and hunters mark would make the difference.
A pure ranger 3 will have a tough time kiting a wyrmling that can fly 60, but a Rogue 2/Ranger 2 Wood Elf with a Longbow can pull it off in a theoretical open field with no other terrain considerations. But as mentioned, burrowing is a problem since the dragon doesn't need to pop up until in range for a melee strike... but wyrmlings have animal level intelligence, up to a DM whether they'd be smart enough to hunt their pray in a slower but safer way.
Move 35 + Longstrider bonus = Move 45.
Every round, you can move + bonus dash 90, while shooting 150/600 away. Yes, the wyrmling can dash 120... but you can move+bonus dash+ action dash 135 if necessary.
Longstrider will stay up for a full hour, which should be enough to make it through this fight without needing to recast. Which means you can use your other slot for Hunters Mark to speed things up a bit.
Assuming you start at range 150....
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The white dragon wyrmling has a stealth bonus and a burrowing speed - IMO its much more likely to hunt by ambushing you from underground than by flying at you above ground, especially if it’s being shot at.
Animals don’t take very much intelligence to hunt well - IRL there are very few animals that just blindly run at their prey. Wolves hunt in packs, big cats stalk their prey before pouncing, spiders build webs. And anyway, Two combatants running at each other in an empty field (fox only, no items, final destination) isn’t really a situation you’ll run into often in DnD, I’d expect most DMs to put monsters in appropriate habitats for them.
The details of how the DM runs the encounter have too many variables to account for. Just saying mechanically, a run n gun ranger 2/rogue 2 has a flying wyrmling (or anything up to 60 speed) whooped
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
A Wood Elf ranger to with 18 Dex and Con could do it. White dragon wyrmling: 32 hp, 16 AC, 9 DPT (+4 to hit). Ranger 2: 20 hp, 17 AC (studded leather), DPT 14 (+8 to hit). The ranger can take it out in 3 turns, as the ranger is likely to hit most turns. If flying, the dragon will end up 95 ft from the ranger after 3 turns. Even then it can't attack.
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You forgot the breath weapon which does 22 damage on failed save, 11 on success.
Studded leather with 18 DEX is 16 AC, and with 18 CON a level 2 ranger would have 24 HP. I'm also not sure where you are getting 14 damage per turn, with 18 DEX and Hunter's mark it would average 12.
But, yeah a level 2 ranger has a much better chance of winning assuming the wyrmling was spotted from a distance and there was nothing for it to take cover behind as it approached.
If the level 2 Ranger has 16+ Dexterity and the Archery fighting style, then they have a +7 to hit and are hitting the wyrmling for 1d8+3(average 7.5) on 9's+ ( 60% chance to hit), so an average of 4.5 damage per round. Average of 7+ rounds of hits to kill the wyrmling's 32 hp... But with a bonus 3.5/round from Hunters Mark, change that to a weighted 7 dmg/round and an average of 5 rounds to kill. If they start at range 150, a normal ranger with no speed enhancement or bonus dash is going to get bogged down in melee at the end of round 2, and then the wyrmling is likely to hit (+4 to hit against likely AC of 16, 45% chance, for 9 damage, average 4 damage per round) in melee or can take off half or all of the ranger's health with a single breath (45-60% of 22 damage, depending on ranger's CON, 100% of 11 damage)... all while the ranger has somewhere between 16-22 hp depending on Con. Within 4 rounds of being caught into melee, the ranger will die, so it's a tossup whether they can seal the deal in the 1-2 rounds they have after being caught.
Hunters Mark: Unlikely to win before round 5, but can easily die starting on round 3.
1: Attack @ 150 for average of 7, move +30 (180). Dragon dashes -120 (60).
2: Attack @ 60 for 7, move +30 (90). Dragon Dashes -120 (0).
3: [Switch to rapier for -2 to hit dropping weighted damage average to 55/round] Attack in melee for 5.5. Dragon either wins if save failed, or deals 11
4: Attack in melee for 5.5. Dragon deals average 4, or wins, if breath recharged.
5: Attack in melee for 5.5. Dragon either dies, or deals average 4 (wins if ranger has low Con), or wins, if breath recharged.
6: One more chance in melee for 5.5. Dragon either dies, or deals average 4 and definitely wins.
BUT, Wyrmlings have a crappy strength save (just +1), so a second level ranger with 16+ wisdom starting at 150 feet has a decent chance of ensnaring the wyrmling at least twice with Ensnaring Strike, and that arguably is more valuable than the Hunters Mark, since the Hunter's Mark ranger has to risk dying on round 3, while the Ensnaring Strike ranger can either avoid melee entirely or push that risk out to range 4, if they can just get two fails on the first casting or at least on fail on each casting?
DC 13 vs +1 save = 55% chance to apply, followed by 55% chance to keep it up each round. Even if the wyrmling breaks free the following round, they take 3.5 damage and used their action so can't fly as far... if the Ranger succesfully applies Ensnaring Strike twice with the dragon breaking free the following round each time, then that buys the ranger one more round out of melee; if the dragon fails 3+ saves, the Ranger is scott free; if the dragon only fails one save, the Ranger is so far behind on dps that it's not even worth spelling out and they're toast.
Ensnaring Strike: Unlikely to win before round 4 or 5, but has a good chance to avoid all danger until round 4 or 5
1: Attack @ 150 for 4.5 dmg, apply Ensnaring Strike, move +30 (180). Dragon takes 3.5 dmg, breaks free, moves -60 (120).
2: Attack @ 120 for 4.5 dmg, apply Ensnaring Strike, move +30 (150). Dragon takes 3.5 dmg, fails?
3: Attack @ 150 for 4.5 dmg, move +30 (180). Dragon takes 3.5 dmg, breaks free, moves -60 (120).
4: Attack @ 120 for 4.5 dmg, move +30 (150). Dragon takes 3.5 dmg, Dragon dies, or dashes -120 (30)
5: Attack @ 30 for 4.5 dmg, Dragon dies hopefully.
OR
1: Attack @ 150 for 4.5 dmg, apply Ensnaring Strike, move +30 (180). Dragon takes 3.5 dmg, breaks free, moves -60 (120).
2: Attack @ 120 for 4.5 dmg, move +30 (150). Dragon takes 3.5 dmg, breaks free, moves -60 (90).
3: Attack @ 90 for 4.5 dmg, move +30 (120). Dragon dashes -120 (0).
4: Attack in melee for 3.75 dmg. Dragon either wins if save failed, or deals 11.
5: Attack in melee for 3.75 dmg. Dragon deals average 4, or wins, if breath recharged.
6: Attack in melee for 3.75 dmg. Dragon either dies, or deals average 4 (wins if ranger has low Con), or wins, if breath recharged.
7: One more chance in melee for 3.75. Dragon either dies, or deals average 4 and definitely wins.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
My math is already hard enough to follow so I won't edit, but actually Ensnaring Strike is even better/faster, because every time the dragon fails a save you get advantage. That bumps your weighted average damage up from 4.5 to something closer to 6.375; that's 4 more damage in the first scenario or 2 more in the second, making the round 4/round 6 wins slightly more likely.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
There’s almost always something to take cover behind. The ground, with its burrow speed.
The fight is no better than a draw for the ranger until the ranger is strong enough to take on the wyrmling in melee, because the wyrmling can negate any ranged attacks entirely by being underground
It’s a loss for the ranger if the ranger gets killed even when the dragon approaches by flight. And a win for the ranger only when the dragon gets beat even if it burrows and just guards.
There’s an interesting similar concept, only using adult dragons and a pact of the time warlock soloing them over the course of in-game days, on the warlocks thread, in the “are warlocks underpowered” post.
Short of creating “those kind” of characters that do 1-shot like damage (the 500+ avg dam 800+ max dam), soloing any level of dragon without being “over leveled”, is a lot easier said than actually done.
not even mentioned, but something to consider. Even if by chance you were pulling this off, of the wyrmling gets hurt enough it will either hide, or flee. This making you have to chase it. Which can very easily lead to your demise, or force you to restart after acquiring more arrows and re-finding the wyrmling.
sure if dragons are your favored enemy and you’re in your favored terrain you could track it well enough. But those readied action of an animal in fight or flight that’s wounded can be a killer.
heh, the first test i did, the damn thing kept rolling 6 on its recharge roll for the breath weapon, so i never thought to look up whether it normally takes a turn before it can use it again. still looking through the manual for that one
It can use it 2 turns in a row if it recharges in 1 turn. Rules here:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/mm/introduction#LimitedUsage