Im looking at T4 play and spells that 'remove' single enemies and Im finding it hard to justify taking spells like Maze or Forcecage when we already have two casters with Banishment. Maze seems like a lot of fun but I have to say that it seems like a one-way spell designed for DMs to use on PCs as they get the immersion and flavor of finding their way through a winding maze. Im just wondering if I should even bother having one of these in my repertoire. I have Hold Person and Wall of Force. I plan on taking Illusory Dragon to make use of my bonus action but Im just not sure about Forcecage (DM has ruled the creature inside has 3/4 cover). Dominate Monster seems like a trap with WIS saves triggering on any damage.
Banishment just seems far superior in a lot of ways; 4th level, CHA save, 1min = 10 rounds iirc and very few fights last that long rendering the target perma Banished. The only caveat is that we may be fighting a fair number of Drow (high CHA).
Leveling up to 15 on the next long rest, any advice is appreciated.
Banishment is a great spell, but note the target is only permanently banished if they are not native to the plane you are on. Also it’s concentration. That’s where forcecage shines, as it’s not concentration. And there’s no save. If a target is in it, all they can do is hope to make a cha save before they teleport out, or hope someone has disintegrate ready. Maze has no save, so you’re guaranteed to get them for at least one round. And to get out, it’s an int check, not an int save - so no proficiency bonus. For most creatures, the best they’ll have is a +5 to a DC 20 check, so good odds they’re stuck in there for a while.
I am not sure what you mean by "1min = 10 rounds iirc and very few fights last that long rendering the target perma Banished" I agree few fights last 10 rounds but if you are fighting something that is in its natural plane they come back after that one minute so rather than a perma-banish you get to split the combat up into a fight againt the non-banished creature(s) followed by a fight against the banished creature(s). Very useful for seperating a boss from ita minions but not a perma banished unless they are not native to the plane you are on.
There are 3 ways banishment can end:
The target makes the saving throw, in this case the spellslot and your action is wasted. If the creature has legendary resistances you might burn one of those.
You lose concentration (very likely in combat especially at high level where something like disintegrate, meteor storm or the breath of an ancient dragon can cause enough damage for you to be unable to make the con save)
The minute is up
Maze has no saving throw so at worst they are out of the battle until their next turn when they can use their action to try and get back. However it is very hard for them to get back. While at that level youre spells might have a DC20 save Maze requires an intelligence check not saving throw so a creature if the target has an intelligence of say (14) they would need to roll an natural 18 to get back, say the charisma is also 14, if they are proficient in charisma saving throws they might have +9 to saving throws and a 50% chance of avoiding the banish.
The other thing with no saving throw is it gets round legendary resistances, if you cast banish on the boss and it fails the save it will choose to succeed instead, only when you have got through its legendary resistances will you have a chance to banish it. Maze will get rid of the creature for an indeterminate number of rounds while you deal with the rest of the bad guys (or you lose concentration).
Forecage also doesn't require a saving throw it just happens on top of that Forcecage is it doesn't require concentration, if you take 70 damage from a single hit, forcecage is still up (even if you go unconcious). Creatures with the ability to teleport are likely to get out in a turn or two but those that can not are stuck, you can deal with them after you have dealt with the rest of the bad guys, and you can use concentration spells to do so. The only reason force cage is not massively overpowered is that solid walls option is only available to creatures large or smaller and most of the really high CR creatures are larger than that. It is a couple of levels higher than wall of force due to the diffculty in telporting out and the inability of a creature to destroy it with disintegrate.
Banish is a great spell but it has its limits especially when dealing with creatures with legendary resistances.
And to get out, it’s an int check, not an int save - so no proficiency bonus. For most creatures, the best they’ll have is a +5 to a DC 20 check, so good odds they’re stuck in there for a while.
Techniclly "best they'll have is +5" isn't true quite a few creatures have intelligence greater than 22, such as Pit fiend and kraken. Crystal Greatwyrm's even have a +10 on int checks. But fair enough you beat me to themain point.
Levitate can basically remove a melee combatant from the field. Or it can remove a friendly creature as a target by melee enemies by lifting them out of range, where they can ideally pick them off with ranged attacks from on high.
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Im looking at T4 play and spells that 'remove' single enemies and Im finding it hard to justify taking spells like Maze or Forcecage when we already have two casters with Banishment. Maze seems like a lot of fun but I have to say that it seems like a one-way spell designed for DMs to use on PCs as they get the immersion and flavor of finding their way through a winding maze. Im just wondering if I should even bother having one of these in my repertoire. I have Hold Person and Wall of Force. I plan on taking Illusory Dragon to make use of my bonus action but Im just not sure about Forcecage (DM has ruled the creature inside has 3/4 cover). Dominate Monster seems like a trap with WIS saves triggering on any damage.
Banishment just seems far superior in a lot of ways; 4th level, CHA save, 1min = 10 rounds iirc and very few fights last that long rendering the target perma Banished. The only caveat is that we may be fighting a fair number of Drow (high CHA).
Leveling up to 15 on the next long rest, any advice is appreciated.
Banishment is a great spell, but note the target is only permanently banished if they are not native to the plane you are on. Also it’s concentration. That’s where forcecage shines, as it’s not concentration. And there’s no save. If a target is in it, all they can do is hope to make a cha save before they teleport out, or hope someone has disintegrate ready.
Maze has no save, so you’re guaranteed to get them for at least one round. And to get out, it’s an int check, not an int save - so no proficiency bonus. For most creatures, the best they’ll have is a +5 to a DC 20 check, so good odds they’re stuck in there for a while.
I am not sure what you mean by "1min = 10 rounds iirc and very few fights last that long rendering the target perma Banished" I agree few fights last 10 rounds but if you are fighting something that is in its natural plane they come back after that one minute so rather than a perma-banish you get to split the combat up into a fight againt the non-banished creature(s) followed by a fight against the banished creature(s). Very useful for seperating a boss from ita minions but not a perma banished unless they are not native to the plane you are on.
There are 3 ways banishment can end:
Maze has no saving throw so at worst they are out of the battle until their next turn when they can use their action to try and get back. However it is very hard for them to get back. While at that level youre spells might have a DC20 save Maze requires an intelligence check not saving throw so a creature if the target has an intelligence of say (14) they would need to roll an natural 18 to get back, say the charisma is also 14, if they are proficient in charisma saving throws they might have +9 to saving throws and a 50% chance of avoiding the banish.
The other thing with no saving throw is it gets round legendary resistances, if you cast banish on the boss and it fails the save it will choose to succeed instead, only when you have got through its legendary resistances will you have a chance to banish it. Maze will get rid of the creature for an indeterminate number of rounds while you deal with the rest of the bad guys (or you lose concentration).
Forecage also doesn't require a saving throw it just happens on top of that Forcecage is it doesn't require concentration, if you take 70 damage from a single hit, forcecage is still up (even if you go unconcious). Creatures with the ability to teleport are likely to get out in a turn or two but those that can not are stuck, you can deal with them after you have dealt with the rest of the bad guys, and you can use concentration spells to do so. The only reason force cage is not massively overpowered is that solid walls option is only available to creatures large or smaller and most of the really high CR creatures are larger than that. It is a couple of levels higher than wall of force due to the diffculty in telporting out and the inability of a creature to destroy it with disintegrate.
Banish is a great spell but it has its limits especially when dealing with creatures with legendary resistances.
Hold Person / Monster
Dominate monster
Suggestion
Otiluke’ irresistible dance
Otiluke’s disco ball.
Techniclly "best they'll have is +5" isn't true quite a few creatures have intelligence greater than 22, such as Pit fiend and kraken. Crystal Greatwyrm's even have a +10 on int checks. But fair enough you beat me to themain point.
Dissonant Whisper someone surrounded by two+ of your melee friends.
Levitate is also amazing against solo melee enemies, main problem is the CON save.
Command is also great.
Have they got rid of the disco ball - the aoe version of irresistible dance? I can't find it in the spell list.
Levitate can basically remove a melee combatant from the field. Or it can remove a friendly creature as a target by melee enemies by lifting them out of range, where they can ideally pick them off with ranged attacks from on high.