So As we know many characters have certain times during their leveling that they drop off hard and can start to feel useless then pick back up again (and some that dont ever pick back up again) Moon Druid is a prime example to me as it starts out very strong when it gets bear but that loses steam quite quickly.
So I wanted to come up with an idea that I think can be fun, decent- good in skill situations (not gonna be a bard level good but still good) and isn't going to feel like you're weak for whole levels at a time (which is most campaigns can be quite a long time feeling weak)
So I was playing with the idea of a Diablo 3 Demon hunter and was playing around with various classes and Builds and came up with something I think is fun, very strong and most importantly doesn't feel like its way behind (I mean its hard to compare with lvl 9 spells for a non spell caster but you wont feel like you're completely useless)
So without further Adeu - This is the character Idea I have
Start with Race - Variant Human - I know people don't like Humans in DND, Dunno why I am a human I enjoy playing as a human. But I feel that the free Feat is just too much to look past.
Language - Chose whatever you want, I went with Infernal
ASI from race - +1 Dex, +1 Wis
Skill - Whatever you want again, I chose Athletics as I want to be able to jump around long distances and my Str Score wont be overly huge.
Feat - Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert (Crossbow Expert only if you believe you will get a hand crossbow prior to level 5, otherwise it has to be Sharpshooter...But if you can start with a hand crossbow then Crossbow Expert is FAR superior at low levels)
Start with Stats (Abilities) - This is point buy obviously. Otherwise your stat priory will be DEX - WIS - CON - STR - INT - CHA. For the purpose of the guild I will assume point buy as there are just too many variables for rolled.
Str 10
Dex 16 (+1)
Con 14
Int - 8
Wis - 16 (+1)
Cha 8
So we have a fairly wise dexterous guy with an average in every sense amount of strength. Not book smart and not hugely suave but we can compensate this a bit. I'll get to class last, next we're looking at the background
Again whatever the hell you want - personally I used Background I went with Guild Merchant/Member - Let me pick another language (I chose Dwarfish and Woodcarvers tools) Figured lots of weapon shop owners are Dwarfs which might help with getting discounts and Woodcarvers tools so I can make crossbow bolts (theres no RAW for this but if you can make arrows with woodcarving I see no reason you cant make bolts). In terms of skills I took Persuasion and Acrobatics - It lets you chose one of them as anything since you pick Insight as Rogue so you can sub this for whatever you want.
Now for the class level by level. This should hold out very well if i'm right and caps out well at 10 or 20 IMO
LEVEL 1 - Rogue (1) - Bang for buck level 1 Rogue is very nice - 4 Proficiency choices (Stealth, Perception, Investigation, Insight) I chose, I find these to be the most useful and Investigation is the main Int Skill used IMO so i'm not terrible at it with the -1 Int) Dex and Int Saving throws are good. 2 Expertise that I took Perception and Stealth, He's a sneaky character (more important at later levels) and Perception is just IMO the S class of skills and being better at it is always a good thing. Level 1 sneak attack at this level is good too. We have 2 attacks and a sneak attack, very likely at level 1 you are by far the strongest character at this point
LEVEL 2 - Ranger (1) - Yep Multi Right away, see thing is that the original idea for this class started 5 Ranger then went to Rogue, but I wanted the extra skills and Expertise that Rogue gives at 1 earlier so I moved this around. For Proficiency I chose Survival but really you could have picked anything (or taken something different from Rogue and picked one of the Rogue skills from this. Favored Enemy again whatever you want, I picked Fiend and Abyssal for the demony languages and For Natural Explorer I chose underdark but again campaign dependent really. I'd think that in something like TOA Jungle would work better. At level 2 you can hit with your bonus action assuming you took crossbow expert and have one or you can hit REALLY hard with a shortbow if you didn't but have sharpshooter.
LEVEL 3 - Ranger (2) - Fighting Style is obviously Archery here, +2 to attacks is very big here thanks to sharpshooter (its big most of the time but SUPER big here) and for spells I took Cure Wounds and Hunters Mark. Hunters Mark may compete for our bonus but if its a tanky enemy itll be better overall. Cure wounds at this level is also huge. This is probably one of the levels we're only middle range as everyone else gets their sub classes here
Level 4 - Ranger (3) - Sub Class time - Gloom Stalker - Now we have dark vision and we go invisible int he dark if all they have to see us is their own dark vision...That's cool. Our Wisdom is now added to our Initiative...+6 is good too. We get an extra attack first round of combat...Hello thats the #$%@ right there. We also get Disguise Self for free which can be very fun. You get another spell too this ones entierly up to you, detect magic maybe, depends on what your party lacks. Once again we're going to start pushing the big damage getting an extra attack first round. extra D8 on one of those. I believe that the sub class here will propel us up to be contending with those with the extra Feat or ASI that we wont have yet and we will still be doing decent damage and keeping up
Level 5 - Ranger (4) - ASI - Taking a feat, Taking Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert (Whatever one you didn't take at level 1). Normally we'd be getting extra attack here but again I believe that this class is strong enough that with sharpshooter and 3 attacks round 1 2 attacks per round after we will still be contending and up there with our damage. This is the only time I feel that ranger 5 here is better as you'd already have the extra attack but in the long run every single bit after 5 this is superior and its not THAT far behind that its unusable for a level (which is what I wanted to avoid - had to always be good)
Level 6 - Ranger (5) - Extra attack. Ok now we hit 4 times Round 1 and 3 after that all with sharpshooter, Its unlikely that anyone will be able to contend with this kind of damage. You will VERY likely be the strongest character. You also get access to level 2 spells. I dropped detect magic (we had 2 spellcasters) and picked up Pass without a Trace and Silence and those spells can be life savers (Silence can shut down the strongest attacks of some spellcasters). This is it for our time as a ranger but we got some fun stuff from it. Big thing to remember is that you are not going to be a caster so don't pick offensive spells, they will almost always fall behind your attacks, instead pick utility that don't scale as this is as high as its getting, all 4 of the spells i picked area always going to be this useful.
Level 7 - Rogue (2) - Cunning Action - I mean it competes for our Bonus Action but its FAR from a useless feat, This level does VERY little for making us stronger but we're still going to be up there for the most powerful from last level
Level 8 - Rogue (3) - This ones Big - Assassin Subclass. Now if we hit first (+6 still very good for initiative so hopefully happens a lot) free advantage. If we get the drop free crits. Sneak attack goes to 2D6. Your stealth should be +9 at this point so sneaking ahead and getting a free hit in isn't hard, your hand crossbow should have a 120ft range thanks to sharpshooter so if you roll high on the initiative order you should be able to hit MOST things before they move.
Level 9 - Rogue (4) - ASI - +2 Dex. Need to start boosting this up, you're going to start finding that your sharp shooter shots will be missing a bit more now, Prof bonus goes up this turn so its +2 to your hit (other option here could be Alert as a feat to almost guarentee your going first most of the time as you would have +11 to Int...That said I feel that by this stage your going to start wanting that extra Dex.
Level 10 - Rogue (5) - Uncanny Dodge is good, Extra D6 on sneak attack also good, very good little level here. I take this here over starting the Multi due to Having no real good uses for our reaction at this level, boosted damage from sneak attack and the fact that so many campaigns end at level 10 and this is WAY better than one level of fighter if thats all you're going to get.
Level 11 - Fighter (1) - Yep a 3rd Multi - Its a pity you cant take Archery Style Twice or this would have been amazing, Only one of value is Defence style for the extra +1 AC so take that. Little heal from Second Wind but nothing amazing. This is for the next 2 levels
Level 12 - Fighter (2) - Action Surge, now if you hit first you can hit 7 times (2 attacks from ranger, 1 from gloom stalker and since its still first turn you can action all 3 again) and the bonus action all at advantage. 14 dice rolled here odds of a crit are looking good. Massive first turn hit
Level 13 - Fighter (3) - Champion Subclass - Why? because that decent shot at a crit from last level just doubled Crit on 19-20
Level 14 - Fighter (4) - Just for the ASI - Get your Dex to 20 (or alert if you find your not going first enough and move the dex to below)
Level 15 - Rogue (6) - Expertise on 2 more skills. I took theives tools as we ran into a lot of traps and investigation because im a bit of a loot whore but this can be whatever your party needs but pick whatever floats your boat.
Level 16 Rogue (7) - Evasion is very good - 4D6 on Sneak attack is very good
Level 17 Rogue (8) - ASI - Take Alert - +5 to Initiative gives you a +13 meaning your going to go first ALOT and get the best out of your abilities. Naturally this is a +2 Dex if you took Alert earlier.
Level 18 - Rogue (9)- This is a basically useless feature especially at level 18 but its another D6 to your sneak attack so not a useless level
Level 19 - Rogue (10) - This is why we kept boosting Rogue. Extra ASI - I picked Lucky here. Other than that Wisdom +2 maybe but all in all Lucky is better
Level 20 - Rogue (11) - Reliable Talent isn't bad, not really a level 20 abiltiy but its also now 6D6 Sneak attack.
I really do not believe you will ever fall behind on the damage using this character idea, you have 8 skills 4 with expertise, 3 tool proficiency at least +13 to initiative and the ability to do MASSIVE damage turn 1 and then decent damage every following turn. Outside of the action surge you are basically non-rest dependent at all, you can go balls to the wall outside of surge EVERY TURN.
You will not be as powerful as a high level wizard, but nothing is. you will be competitive at all times outside of fights where your ranged abilities are gone but even then you can fight from close range thanks to crossbow expert and that's the goal.
Any tips, suggestions, other ways to improve this id love to hear it
You have a lot of versatility from the large number of classes, but picking that many reduces the ability to get the higher level more powerful abilities. You will get better incriminated power increases, but depends on what role the character is to play.
5e I really do not like the idea of multi-classing that much. May just be me, but I really miss prestige classes.
edit: spelling changes from typos on a handheld at night.
In terms of spellcasters I agree wholeheartedly. The higher level spells like say...Wish for instance is so grossly overpowered that if you were to Multi-class and get that later or not at all then yes I am losing a lot of versatility.
But with these classes they are quite front loaded and I really do not feel that I lose a whole lot More so on the ranger side.
For ranger Up to level 10 honestly the only good thing that comes after level 5 is the Wisdom Proficiency the rest is fairly meh to be honest. That is going up against Uncanny dodge, Expertise, sneak attacks, extra skills, Cunning Action. To me this is a no-brainer. Of course I lose out on the spells too but ive never really thought too much of the Ranger Spell list. Some of the stuff is cool but in terms of combat usefulness id rather be dishing out bigger damage.
Up to level 20 of course more spells and there is some cool stuff i miss out on,. Stalkers Flurry is fun, Vanish is just a worse Cunning Action more favored enemies is meh Shadowy Dodge is cool, Feral Sense is situational and Foe Slayer is cool.
But instead I get to Crit on 19 and 20, Uncanny Dodge IMO is better than Shadowy Dodge (as disadvantage may still hit where as Uncanny will always 1/2) as I said Vanish is a worse cunning action. Evasion is amazing considering how often Dex saving throws come up. And Sneak attack is better than Foe Slayer by a mile.
All in all to me its not even close as a competition for if this multi is better than ranger.
Now Rogue is a bit harder because Rogue is quite good.
Since Rogue in my multi is level 5 at level 10 the things we lose at that level are 1 extra ASI and Evasion as well as getting the Sneak attack to 5D6 over the 3D6 of my build. This is fairly big..BUT you gain some BIG things. Extra attack is a huge one, dark vision, an extra attack round 1, some of those spells are very useful (Pass without a trace is invaluable at times) all in all while Rogue is very good on its own I still think my Multi gives more at level 10 than Rogue on its own (As an Assassin as thats the Sub I chose)
At level 20. Well Mine goes to level 11 so Anything prior to that I wont look at since I get it.
Imposter is situational at best, Blindsense is cool but situational Slippery Mind is good, Death strike is very cool but hardly worth it as a level 17 ability, Elusive is a loss as thats very cool and Stroke of luck is very good too.
But again instead of those abilities where 3 of them are good your getting, More Crits, Extra Attack and the big one. Action Surge. Turn 1 if you attack first and surge you hit 7 times and all with advantage. Odds of a crit (since its 19-20) is something around 86%. Hold your Sneak attack and your doing BIG damage.
So all in all, I believe that 5E is built in a way that its not Capstone or bust at higher levels. Sure I wont be able to compete with a Wizard with Wish due to the obscene power of that spell but I should always be relevant which was the goal.....I hate feeling useless for whole level or 2 at a time which can easily happen with some classes
Moon Druids are actually one of the strongest classes in the game but yeah, this build works. It requires a lot of dedication and you'll probably going to feel that you miss quite a bit up to level 14 (when you get your first Dex increase). If you manage to take this all the way to level 20 it will probably be a solid character.
Depends when you chose to to get the +2 Dex increase. Yes you could take it at 14 or you could take it back at level 9 (Depends if you think that Alert or +2 Dex is more valuable).
Depends when you chose to to get the +2 Dex increase. Yes you could take it at 14 or you could take it back at level 9 (Depends if you think that Alert or +2 Dex is more valuable).
Well, I was going by what you wrote and that was at level 14. But even at level 9 you're going to miss quite a lot.
So As we know many characters have certain times during their leveling that they drop off hard and can start to feel useless then pick back up again 1. (and some that dont ever pick back up again) Moon Druid is a prime example to me as it starts out very strong when it gets bear but that loses steam quite quickly.
So I wanted to come up with an idea that I think can be fun, decent- good in skill situations (not gonna be a bard level good but still good) and isn't going to feel like you're weak for whole levels at a time (which is most campaigns can be quite a long time feeling weak)
So I was playing with the idea of a Diablo 3 Demon hunter and was playing around with various classes and Builds and came up with something I think is fun, very strong and most importantly doesn't feel like its way behind (I mean its hard to compare with lvl 9 spells for a non spell caster but you wont feel like you're completely useless)
So without further Adeu - This is the character Idea I have
Start with Race - Variant Human - I know people don't like Humans in DND, Dunno why I am a human I enjoy playing as a human. But I feel that the free Feat is just too much to look past.
Language - Chose whatever you want, I went with Infernal
ASI from race - +1 Dex, +1 Wis
Skill - Whatever you want again, I chose Athletics as I want to be able to jump around long distances and my Str Score wont be overly huge.
Feat - Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert (Crossbow Expert only if you believe you will get a hand crossbow prior to level 5, otherwise it has to be Sharpshooter...But if you can start with a hand crossbow then Crossbow Expert is FAR superior at low levels)
Start with Stats (Abilities) - This is point buy obviously. Otherwise your stat priory will be DEX - WIS - CON - STR - INT - CHA. For the purpose of the guild I will assume point buy as there are just too many variables for rolled.
Str 10
Dex 16 (+1)
Con 14
Int - 8
Wis - 16 (+1)
Cha 8
So we have a fairly wise dexterous guy with an average in every sense amount of strength. Not book smart and not hugely suave but we can compensate this a bit. I'll get to class last, next we're looking at the background
Again whatever the hell you want - personally I used Background I went with Guild Merchant/Member - Let me pick another language (I chose Dwarfish and Woodcarvers tools) Figured lots of weapon shop owners are Dwarfs which might help with getting discounts and Woodcarvers tools so I can make crossbow bolts (theres no RAW for this but if you can make arrows with woodcarving I see no reason you cant make bolts). In terms of skills I took Persuasion and Acrobatics - It lets you chose one of them as anything since you pick Insight as Rogue so you can sub this for whatever you want.
Now for the class level by level. This should hold out very well if i'm right and caps out well at 10 or 20 IMO
LEVEL 1 - Rogue (1) - Bang for buck level 1 Rogue is very nice - 4 Proficiency choices (Stealth, Perception, Investigation, Insight) I chose, I find these to be the most useful and Investigation is the main Int Skill used IMO so i'm not terrible at it with the -1 Int) Dex and Int Saving throws are good. 2 Expertise that I took Perception and Stealth, He's a sneaky character (more important at later levels) and Perception is just IMO the S class of skills and being better at it is always a good thing. Level 1 sneak attack at this level is good too. We have 2 attacks and a sneak attack, very likely at level 1 you are by far the strongest character at this point
LEVEL 2 - Ranger (1) - Yep Multi Right away, see thing is that the original idea for this class started 5 Ranger then went to Rogue, but I wanted the extra skills and Expertise that Rogue gives at 1 earlier so I moved this around. For Proficiency I chose Survival but really you could have picked anything (or taken something different from Rogue and picked one of the Rogue skills from this. Favored Enemy again whatever you want, I picked Fiend and Abyssal for the demony languages and For Natural Explorer I chose underdark but again campaign dependent really. I'd think that in something like TOA Jungle would work better. At level 2 you can hit with your bonus action assuming you took crossbow expert and have one or you can hit REALLY hard with a shortbow if you didn't but have sharpshooter.
LEVEL 3 - Ranger (2) - Fighting Style is obviously Archery here, +2 to attacks is very big here thanks to sharpshooter (its big most of the time but SUPER big here) and for spells I took Cure Wounds and Hunters Mark. Hunters Mark may compete for our bonus but if its a tanky enemy itll be better overall. Cure wounds at this level is also huge. This is probably one of the levels we're only middle range as everyone else gets their sub classes here
Level 4 - Ranger (3) - Sub Class time - Gloom Stalker - Now we have dark vision and we go invisible int he dark if all they have to see us is their own dark vision...That's cool. Our Wisdom is now added to our Initiative...+6 is good too. We get an extra attack first round of combat...Hello thats the #$%@ right there. We also get Disguise Self for free which can be very fun. You get another spell too this ones entierly up to you, detect magic maybe, depends on what your party lacks. Once again we're going to start pushing the big damage getting an extra attack first round. extra D8 on one of those. I believe that the sub class here will propel us up to be contending with those with the extra Feat or ASI that we wont have yet and we will still be doing decent damage and keeping up
Level 5 - Ranger (4) - ASI - Taking a feat, Taking Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert (Whatever one you didn't take at level 1). Normally we'd be getting extra attack here but again I believe that this class is strong enough that with sharpshooter and 3 attacks round 1 2 attacks per round after we will still be contending and up there with our damage. This is the only time I feel that ranger 5 here is better as you'd already have the extra attack but in the long run every single bit after 5 this is superior and its not THAT far behind that its unusable for a level (which is what I wanted to avoid - had to always be good)
Level 6 - Ranger (5) - Extra attack. Ok now we hit 4 times Round 1 and 3 after that all with sharpshooter, Its unlikely that anyone will be able to contend with this kind of damage. You will VERY likely be the strongest character. You also get access to level 2 spells. I dropped detect magic (we had 2 spellcasters) and picked up Pass without a Trace and Silence and those spells can be life savers (Silence can shut down the strongest attacks of some spellcasters). This is it for our time as a ranger but we got some fun stuff from it. Big thing to remember is that you are not going to be a caster so don't pick offensive spells, they will almost always fall behind your attacks, instead pick utility that don't scale as this is as high as its getting, all 4 of the spells i picked area always going to be this useful.
Level 7 - Rogue (2) - Cunning Action - I mean it competes for our Bonus Action but its FAR from a useless feat, This level does VERY little for making us stronger but we're still going to be up there for the most powerful from last level
Level 8 - Rogue (3) - This ones Big - Assassin Subclass. Now if we hit first (+6 still very good for initiative so hopefully happens a lot) free advantage. If we get the drop free crits. Sneak attack goes to 2D6. Your stealth should be +9 at this point so sneaking ahead and getting a free hit in isn't hard, your hand crossbow should have a 120ft range thanks to sharpshooter so if you roll high on the initiative order you should be able to hit MOST things before they move.
Level 9 - Rogue (4) - ASI - +2 Dex. Need to start boosting this up, you're going to start finding that your sharp shooter shots will be missing a bit more now, Prof bonus goes up this turn so its +2 to your hit (other option here could be Alert as a feat to almost guarentee your going first most of the time as you would have +11 to Int...That said I feel that by this stage your going to start wanting that extra Dex.
Level 10 - Rogue (5) - Uncanny Dodge is good, Extra D6 on sneak attack also good, very good little level here. I take this here over starting the Multi due to Having no real good uses for our reaction at this level, boosted damage from sneak attack and the fact that so many campaigns end at level 10 and this is WAY better than one level of fighter if thats all you're going to get.
2. Level 11 - Fighter (1) - Yep a 3rd Multi - Its a pity you cant take Archery Style Twice or this would have been amazing, Only one of value is Defence style for the extra +1 AC so take that. Little heal from Second Wind but nothing amazing. This is for the next 2 levels
Level 12 - Fighter (2) - Action Surge, now if you hit first you can hit 7 times (2 attacks from ranger, 1 from gloom stalker and since its still first turn you can action all 3 again) and the bonus action all at advantage. 14 dice rolled here odds of a crit are looking good. Massive first turn hit
Level 13 - Fighter (3) - Champion Subclass - Why? because that decent shot at a crit from last level just doubled Crit on 19-20
Level 14 - Fighter (4) - Just for the ASI - Get your Dex to 20 (or alert if you find your not going first enough and move the dex to below)
Level 15 - Rogue (6) - Expertise on 2 more skills. I took theives tools as we ran into a lot of traps and investigation because im a bit of a loot whore but this can be whatever your party needs but pick whatever floats your boat.
Level 16 Rogue (7) - Evasion is very good - 4D6 on Sneak attack is very good
Level 17 Rogue (8) - ASI - Take Alert - +5 to Initiative gives you a +13 meaning your going to go first ALOT and get the best out of your abilities. Naturally this is a +2 Dex if you took Alert earlier.
Level 18 - Rogue (9)- This is a basically useless feature especially at level 18 but its another D6 to your sneak attack so not a useless level
Level 19 - Rogue (10) - This is why we kept boosting Rogue. Extra ASI - I picked Lucky here. Other than that Wisdom +2 maybe but all in all Lucky is better
Level 20 - Rogue (11) - Reliable Talent isn't bad, not really a level 20 abiltiy but its also now 6D6 Sneak attack.
I really do not believe you will ever fall behind on the damage using this character idea, you have 8 skills 4 with expertise, 3 tool proficiency at least +13 to initiative and the ability to do MASSIVE damage turn 1 and then decent damage every following turn. Outside of the action surge you are basically non-rest dependent at all, you can go balls to the wall outside of surge EVERY TURN.
You will not be as powerful as a high level wizard, but nothing is. you will be competitive at all times outside of fights where your ranged abilities are gone but even then you can fight from close range thanks to crossbow expert and that's the goal.
Any tips, suggestions, other ways to improve this id love to hear it
1. Bonus action to heal to full health is one of the strongest abilities in the game. They get this at level 2 and it only gets better the higher level they get. They also get arguably the best capstone ability in the game at level 20 unlimited (Wildshape) bonus action full heals. When your HP approaches infinite you are pretty hard to deal with. This is not even taking into consideration that you are still a 20th level full caster if your enemies somehow do manage to knock you out of Wildshape.
2. You can only do this if the multi-class requirements are not enforced. Every DM I have played with, myself included, enforce these.
1. Bonus action to heal to full health is one of the strongest abilities in the game. They get this at level 2 and it only gets better the higher level they get. They also get arguably the best capstone ability in the game at level 20 unlimited (Wildshape) bonus action full heals. When your HP approaches infinite you are pretty hard to deal with. This is not even taking into consideration that you are still a 20th level full caster if your enemies somehow do manage to knock you out of Wildshape.
Where do you get "heal to full health"? At 2nd level you will only be healing 1d8 (1st level slot) with a bonus action.
1. Bonus action to heal to full health is one of the strongest abilities in the game. They get this at level 2 and it only gets better the higher level they get. They also get arguably the best capstone ability in the game at level 20 unlimited (Wildshape) bonus action full heals. When your HP approaches infinite you are pretty hard to deal with. This is not even taking into consideration that you are still a 20th level full caster if your enemies somehow do manage to knock you out of Wildshape.
Where do you get "heal to full health"? At 2nd level you will only be healing 1d8 (1st level slot) with a bonus action.
Wildshape gives you the health of the creature that you wildshape into. It's not exactly full health, but it's pretty solid.
If you were thinking Cure Wounds it's not a bonus action and Healing Word is 1d4 plus spellcasting mod as a 1st level spell.
The way you do these comparisons is not to look at what you get but at what you give up.
For example, you are
Ranger 5/Rogue 11/ Fighter 4.
Clearly you are mainly a Rogue. Yes, Fighter is front loaded, but look at what you get for Fighter 4 vs Rogue 15.
Fighter 4 gives:
A few extra hitpoints (1d10 vs 1d8, average +4 hp) (crap)
Extra Fighting Style (good)
Second Wind 1d10+4 (ok)
Action Surge (good)
Improved Critcial (good)
1 feat/ASI (equal)
Rogue 15 Assassin gives you
ASI/Feat (equal)
Imposter (crap)
+1d6 Sneak Attack (good)
Blindsense 10 ft (good)
Proficiency in Wisdom Saves (HUGE)
+1d6 Sneak Attack (good)
That is a tough call, not a no brainer - mainy because Imposter is a build / game dependent thing. Is it worth the extra fighting style? But 2d6 Sneak Attack is likely better than Improved Crit. (1/in 20 double dice vs constant 2d6 and 1/20 double 2d6). Action Surge is worth the Blindsense 10ft, but wisdom proficiency is a huge benefit to you, much better than second wind +1d10+4 hp and the extra couple of hp. Personally I think that the Ranger/Rogue combo has a slight benefit over the Ranger/Rogue/Fighter. But I can see going the other way if you really want a 1/day extra attacks. If the game is social focused/city game, then Imposter becomes worthwhile and there is no real contest.
For me however. 2d6 isn't a huge amount of extra damage in the grand scheme of things compared to the massive amount that can be done with action surge considering it adds 3 possible sharpshooter attacks likely at advantage. If action surge was long rest dependent i'd 100% agree that the assassin and the extra sneak attack is way better but its decently likely that i'll have a surge for a good amount of fights which I believe put its above the 2d6 to me.
Considering that a few of the things as you pointed out are nearly useless. I've scored each of these based on how useful they are (and the stuff i've excluded are things like imposter and the extra hit points that are fairly useless so 3 is the most useful and it goes down after that.
Fighter
Fighting Style (so +1 AC) (1.5) - AC is never a bad thing. 1 isn't going to change the world but its a 5% less chance to be hit which can and will come up.
Action Surge (3) - To me this is 100% a 3 point ability, the amount of extra attacks is so good
Improved Critical (2) - With the amount of rolls you do turn 1 with an action surge and with advantage with this build this is an easy 2. 87% chance to crit with this is huge
Second Wind (0.5) - Look it nearly fell of the list as its not a lot of HP healed but its still basically a free basic potion
Vs
Rogue
2d6 Sneak Attack (2.5) - Yeah its good but I don' think its quite as good as action surge or wisdom saves so its just under
Wisdom Save Proficiency (3) - Yeah this is good, Wisdom saves are dangerous. That said its not like im horrid at them by any stretch with 16 Wis. But yes this would have been nice.
Blindsense (10ft) (1) - I mean....it can be good but it can be replicated with spells and other things in the party that by the time i'd get it they would almost 100% chance have it.
So its 7 for Fighter vs 6.5 for more Rogue. And it really comes down to Action Surge and improved Critical vs Wisdom Save Proficiency and more Sneak attack...and to me the amount of extra damage you can put out on those early turns and maybe completely demolish a dangerous spell caster or similar is too valuable .
Again. Action Surge resets on Short Rest. Its not a once a day ability it can be used a few times if you can chill for a bit which is not overly crazy. Even in big dungeons you can usually rest for a hour.
That said its not so clear that there is no other way, this is just my preference.
For me however. 2d6 isn't a huge amount of extra damage in the grand scheme of things compared to the massive amount that can be done with action surge considering it adds 3 possible sharpshooter attacks likely at advantage. If action surge was long rest dependent i'd 100% agree that the assassin and the extra sneak attack is way better but its decently likely that i'll have a surge for a good amount of fights which I believe put its above the 2d6 to me.
Considering that a few of the things as you pointed out are nearly useless. I've scored each of these based on how useful they are (and the stuff i've excluded are things like imposter and the extra hit points that are fairly useless so 3 is the most useful and it goes down after that.
Fighter
Fighting Style (so +1 AC) (1.5) - AC is never a bad thing. 1 isn't going to change the world but its a 5% less chance to be hit which can and will come up.
Action Surge (3) - To me this is 100% a 3 point ability, the amount of extra attacks is so good
Improved Critical (2) - With the amount of rolls you do turn 1 with an action surge and with advantage with this build this is an easy 2. 87% chance to crit with this is huge
Second Wind (0.5) - Look it nearly fell of the list as its not a lot of HP healed but its still basically a free basic potion
Vs
Rogue
2d6 Sneak Attack (2.5) - Yeah its good but I don' think its quite as good as action surge or wisdom saves so its just under
Wisdom Save Proficiency (3) - Yeah this is good, Wisdom saves are dangerous. That said its not like im horrid at them by any stretch with 16 Wis. But yes this would have been nice.
Blindsense (10ft) (1) - I mean....it can be good but it can be replicated with spells and other things in the party that by the time i'd get it they would almost 100% chance have it.
So its 7 for Fighter vs 6.5 for more Rogue. And it really comes down to Action Surge and improved Critical vs Wisdom Save Proficiency and more Sneak attack...and to me the amount of extra damage you can put out on those early turns and maybe completely demolish a dangerous spell caster or similar is too valuable .
Again. Action Surge resets on Short Rest. Its not a once a day ability it can be used a few times if you can chill for a bit which is not overly crazy. Even in big dungeons you can usually rest for a hour.
That said its not so clear that there is no other way, this is just my preference.
Assuming heavy crossbow (1d10), +5 dex and +10 from sharpshooter, Action Surge would get you 20.5 average damage per hit and 26 per crit. If we assume 3 hits and ignore crits and misses, that would be an average of 61.5 extra damage. 2d6 is 7 average damage and 14 average damage on a crit. You would have to get 9 normal sneak attacks in to surpass the damage of 1 3 hit action surge. If we assume 3 rounds of combat per encounter, that's the encounters per short rest.
Therefore, in groups where short rests are frequent, Action Surge pulls ahead. Additionally, the disability to spread the damage out is advantageous for whittling numbers at the start of a massive fight, as is the ability to nova an extremely dangerous enemy.
If the PC were going to have the ability to capitalize on reaction attacks in addition to their normal attacks, then it would push the edge more in favor of the extra 2d6 for straight up output.
Of course, this does not factor in crits or the -5, both of which also favor the sneak attack damage in general. Since the OP is favoring the nova and first strike ability and seems to be confident in short rests appearing regularly, I think action surge is a great idea.
its a hand crossbow as its a class that abuses crossbow expert.
Most groups in my experience short rests aren't uncommon. Its not like even in a dungeon you couldn't stop running around for a hour, unlike long rest there is no need to sleep during a short rest so its far safer, this is also a class that gets rope trick quite early on (earlier than action surge) making short rests quite easy to do.
Again this is of course DM dependent, if your DM says that you must run run run run run and never stop then i'd probably go with the extra levels of rogue. But considering you wouldn't go into the multi until level 11 i'd hope by that stage you have worked out your DM and whether they let you short rest a bit. That said and this is important this is entirely dependent on how long your campaign goes for. Most go to level 10 in which case you wont see most of the later stuff and your capstone is uncanny dodge (which is a good ability).
But as my friend above noted each has its its own use. The Nova ability of the action surge and the ability to throw the damage around to multiple enemies is more useful to me. The issue with sneak attack and really with rogues in general is that they are really only intended to attack once and get that sneak attack from that. its always funny to me to attack once for like 60 damage then a second attack for 8. This idea is a bit of a crit fisher. 6D6 critting is still nice even at super high levels and when your doing first turn 4 attacks and 87ish % chance to crit (assuming going first and getting assassin advantage)
Lets average out what you can do turn 1 with a +2 hand crossbow which is putting it small assuming all hit (and your hitting at around +10 with sharpshooter at this level so with advantage hitting all attacks isn't THAT crazy.
Attack 1 - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 2 - 1d6+7+10 (Lets say this is the crit) so you add the sneak attack here - 25 + 42 (adverage of 12d6) so 67
Attack 3 - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average then you add another D8 for dread ambusher - so 25
Attack 4 (Bonus) - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 5 (Surge) - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 6 (Surge) 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 7 (Surge Dread Ambusher) 1d6+7+10 - 21 average then you add another D8 for dread ambusher - so 25
So assuming you hit all the attacks which with advantage isn't overly crazy, and only with a +2 Bow at lvl 20 which could easily be a +3 bow with no magic ammo.....You hit 201 damage. Which on your own has the possibility to take out a TONNE of enemies, or you can share the love and mow down a whole room of people.
This is assuming a single crit which as I said 87% chance to happen thanks to surge and improved critical.
Each turn after that your chance to crit of course drops down to around 45% if you can get some advantage and far less. But lets take the crit out because it has such a lower chance and look at now
Attack 1 - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 2 - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 3 (Bonus) - 1d6+7+10 - 21
and 6d6 for another 21 average
so another 84 damage each turn after.
Lets compare to full rogue again assuming all hits for both and a crit on turn 1 even though its FAR less likely
Attack 1 - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 2 - 1d6+7+10 (Lets say this is the crit) so you add the sneak attack here - 25 + 56 (average of 16d6) so 81
Attack 3 - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average then you add another D8 for dread ambusher - so 25
Attack 4 (Bonus) - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Now i'm being kind here due to the fact that not hitting a crit is a MASSIVE damage loss. but its still only 148 turn 1 if you do get super lucky then each turn after
Attack 1 - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 2 - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 3 (Bonus) - 1d6+7+10 - 21
and 8d6 for another 28 average
91 each turn after. So i'm giving up 50ish damage turn 1 to gain 7 each following turn and again....This assumes a crit which the rogue straight on turn one had i believe around a 25% chance to get vs the 87% chance of the fighter multi...So in that cause you can drop the damage of the first turn by another 30ish meaning its an 80ish damage difference.
This is where my thinking goes. My math may be a bit off but thats a LOT of damage to give up
its a hand crossbow as its a class that abuses crossbow expert.
Most groups in my experience short rests aren't uncommon. Its not like even in a dungeon you couldn't stop running around for a hour, unlike long rest there is no need to sleep during a short rest so its far safer, this is also a class that gets rope trick quite early on (earlier than action surge) making short rests quite easy to do.
Again this is of course DM dependent, if your DM says that you must run run run run run and never stop then i'd probably go with the extra levels of rogue. But considering you wouldn't go into the multi until level 11 i'd hope by that stage you have worked out your DM and whether they let you short rest a bit. That said and this is important this is entirely dependent on how long your campaign goes for. Most go to level 10 in which case you wont see most of the later stuff and your capstone is uncanny dodge (which is a good ability).
But as my friend above noted each has its its own use. The Nova ability of the action surge and the ability to throw the damage around to multiple enemies is more useful to me. The issue with sneak attack and really with rogues in general is that they are really only intended to attack once and get that sneak attack from that. its always funny to me to attack once for like 60 damage then a second attack for 8. This idea is a bit of a crit fisher. 6D6 critting is still nice even at super high levels and when your doing first turn 4 attacks and 87ish % chance to crit (assuming going first and getting assassin advantage)
Lets average out what you can do turn 1 with a +2 hand crossbow which is putting it small assuming all hit (and your hitting at around +10 with sharpshooter at this level so with advantage hitting all attacks isn't THAT crazy.
Attack 1 - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 2 - 1d6+7+10 (Lets say this is the crit) so you add the sneak attack here - 25 + 42 (adverage of 12d6) so 67
Attack 3 - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average then you add another D8 for dread ambusher - so 25
Attack 4 (Bonus) - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 5 (Surge) - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 6 (Surge) 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 7 (Surge Dread Ambusher) 1d6+7+10 - 21 average then you add another D8 for dread ambusher - so 25
So assuming you hit all the attacks which with advantage isn't overly crazy, and only with a +2 Bow at lvl 20 which could easily be a +3 bow with no magic ammo.....You hit 201 damage. Which on your own has the possibility to take out a TONNE of enemies, or you can share the love and mow down a whole room of people.
This is assuming a single crit which as I said 87% chance to happen thanks to surge and improved critical.
Each turn after that your chance to crit of course drops down to around 45% if you can get some advantage and far less. But lets take the crit out because it has such a lower chance and look at now
Attack 1 - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 2 - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 3 (Bonus) - 1d6+7+10 - 21
and 6d6 for another 21 average
so another 84 damage each turn after.
Lets compare to full rogue again assuming all hits for both and a crit on turn 1 even though its FAR less likely
Attack 1 - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 2 - 1d6+7+10 (Lets say this is the crit) so you add the sneak attack here - 25 + 56 (average of 16d6) so 81
Attack 3 - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average then you add another D8 for dread ambusher - so 25
Attack 4 (Bonus) - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Now i'm being kind here due to the fact that not hitting a crit is a MASSIVE damage loss. but its still only 148 turn 1 if you do get super lucky then each turn after
Attack 1 - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 2 - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 3 (Bonus) - 1d6+7+10 - 21
and 8d6 for another 28 average
91 each turn after. So i'm giving up 50ish damage turn 1 to gain 7 each following turn and again....This assumes a crit which the rogue straight on turn one had i believe around a 25% chance to get vs the 87% chance of the fighter multi...So in that cause you can drop the damage of the first turn by another 30ish meaning its an 80ish damage difference.
This is where my thinking goes. My math may be a bit off but thats a LOT of damage to give up
I went with heavy crossbow for the maximum damage to overcome. With the hand crossbow, you're only coming down 2 average damage per attack meaning that your 61.5 average damage for action Surge is now only 55.5 and 8 sneak attacks without a crit to overcome.
However, as you confirmed, you are placing more emphasis on the ability to spread the live around and nova over potential top end damage (which is no guarantee). Action surge gives the highest floor of damage while the higher sneak attack gives the highest ceiling. As has also been stated, they're close enough that prioritizing one type enhances its value to the build.
Edit: something else that's interesting is that this build devalues Hunters Mark on the first round unless there is something that can take more than three hits during the first round. Something like Hail of Thorns becomes more interesting aside from being able to move the mark after the fact. Outside of being able to hit 3 or more targets with Hail or have a creature take 3 or more hits, you're likely better off just taking the bonus action attack and saving your slots.
Another side effect is that with so many attacks (especially at advantage), you can afford to let the sneak attack slide down the list until you have 1 or 2 attacks left or until you crit. Getting to roll between 12 and 14 times on an opening round with a 10% chance per roll to get a 19-20 means that you'll often get 1 or 2 crits in the bunch (hopefully not all representing the same attack) even if you don't get the autocrit from surprise.
So As we know many characters have certain times during their leveling that they drop off hard and can start to feel useless then pick back up again (and some that dont ever pick back up again) Moon Druid is a prime example to me as it starts out very strong when it gets bear but that loses steam quite quickly.
So I wanted to come up with an idea that I think can be fun, decent- good in skill situations (not gonna be a bard level good but still good) and isn't going to feel like you're weak for whole levels at a time (which is most campaigns can be quite a long time feeling weak)
So I was playing with the idea of a Diablo 3 Demon hunter and was playing around with various classes and Builds and came up with something I think is fun, very strong and most importantly doesn't feel like its way behind (I mean its hard to compare with lvl 9 spells for a non spell caster but you wont feel like you're completely useless)
So without further Adeu - This is the character Idea I have
Start with Race - Variant Human - I know people don't like Humans in DND, Dunno why I am a human I enjoy playing as a human. But I feel that the free Feat is just too much to look past.
Language - Chose whatever you want, I went with Infernal
ASI from race - +1 Dex, +1 Wis
Skill - Whatever you want again, I chose Athletics as I want to be able to jump around long distances and my Str Score wont be overly huge.
Feat - Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert (Crossbow Expert only if you believe you will get a hand crossbow prior to level 5, otherwise it has to be Sharpshooter...But if you can start with a hand crossbow then Crossbow Expert is FAR superior at low levels)
Start with Stats (Abilities) - This is point buy obviously. Otherwise your stat priory will be DEX - WIS - CON - STR - INT - CHA. For the purpose of the guild I will assume point buy as there are just too many variables for rolled.
Str 10
Dex 16 (+1)
Con 14
Int - 8
Wis - 16 (+1)
Cha 8
So we have a fairly wise dexterous guy with an average in every sense amount of strength. Not book smart and not hugely suave but we can compensate this a bit. I'll get to class last, next we're looking at the background
Again whatever the hell you want - personally I used Background I went with Guild Merchant/Member - Let me pick another language (I chose Dwarfish and Woodcarvers tools) Figured lots of weapon shop owners are Dwarfs which might help with getting discounts and Woodcarvers tools so I can make crossbow bolts (theres no RAW for this but if you can make arrows with woodcarving I see no reason you cant make bolts). In terms of skills I took Persuasion and Acrobatics - It lets you chose one of them as anything since you pick Insight as Rogue so you can sub this for whatever you want.
Now for the class level by level. This should hold out very well if i'm right and caps out well at 10 or 20 IMO
LEVEL 1 - Rogue (1) - Bang for buck level 1 Rogue is very nice - 4 Proficiency choices (Stealth, Perception, Investigation, Insight) I chose, I find these to be the most useful and Investigation is the main Int Skill used IMO so i'm not terrible at it with the -1 Int) Dex and Int Saving throws are good. 2 Expertise that I took Perception and Stealth, He's a sneaky character (more important at later levels) and Perception is just IMO the S class of skills and being better at it is always a good thing. Level 1 sneak attack at this level is good too. We have 2 attacks and a sneak attack, very likely at level 1 you are by far the strongest character at this point
LEVEL 2 - Ranger (1) - Yep Multi Right away, see thing is that the original idea for this class started 5 Ranger then went to Rogue, but I wanted the extra skills and Expertise that Rogue gives at 1 earlier so I moved this around. For Proficiency I chose Survival but really you could have picked anything (or taken something different from Rogue and picked one of the Rogue skills from this. Favored Enemy again whatever you want, I picked Fiend and Abyssal for the demony languages and For Natural Explorer I chose underdark but again campaign dependent really. I'd think that in something like TOA Jungle would work better. At level 2 you can hit with your bonus action assuming you took crossbow expert and have one or you can hit REALLY hard with a shortbow if you didn't but have sharpshooter.
LEVEL 3 - Ranger (2) - Fighting Style is obviously Archery here, +2 to attacks is very big here thanks to sharpshooter (its big most of the time but SUPER big here) and for spells I took Cure Wounds and Hunters Mark. Hunters Mark may compete for our bonus but if its a tanky enemy itll be better overall. Cure wounds at this level is also huge. This is probably one of the levels we're only middle range as everyone else gets their sub classes here
Level 4 - Ranger (3) - Sub Class time - Gloom Stalker - Now we have dark vision and we go invisible int he dark if all they have to see us is their own dark vision...That's cool. Our Wisdom is now added to our Initiative...+6 is good too. We get an extra attack first round of combat...Hello thats the #$%@ right there. We also get Disguise Self for free which can be very fun. You get another spell too this ones entierly up to you, detect magic maybe, depends on what your party lacks. Once again we're going to start pushing the big damage getting an extra attack first round. extra D8 on one of those. I believe that the sub class here will propel us up to be contending with those with the extra Feat or ASI that we wont have yet and we will still be doing decent damage and keeping up
Level 5 - Ranger (4) - ASI - Taking a feat, Taking Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert (Whatever one you didn't take at level 1). Normally we'd be getting extra attack here but again I believe that this class is strong enough that with sharpshooter and 3 attacks round 1 2 attacks per round after we will still be contending and up there with our damage. This is the only time I feel that ranger 5 here is better as you'd already have the extra attack but in the long run every single bit after 5 this is superior and its not THAT far behind that its unusable for a level (which is what I wanted to avoid - had to always be good)
Level 6 - Ranger (5) - Extra attack. Ok now we hit 4 times Round 1 and 3 after that all with sharpshooter, Its unlikely that anyone will be able to contend with this kind of damage. You will VERY likely be the strongest character. You also get access to level 2 spells. I dropped detect magic (we had 2 spellcasters) and picked up Pass without a Trace and Silence and those spells can be life savers (Silence can shut down the strongest attacks of some spellcasters). This is it for our time as a ranger but we got some fun stuff from it. Big thing to remember is that you are not going to be a caster so don't pick offensive spells, they will almost always fall behind your attacks, instead pick utility that don't scale as this is as high as its getting, all 4 of the spells i picked area always going to be this useful.
Level 7 - Rogue (2) - Cunning Action - I mean it competes for our Bonus Action but its FAR from a useless feat, This level does VERY little for making us stronger but we're still going to be up there for the most powerful from last level
Level 8 - Rogue (3) - This ones Big - Assassin Subclass. Now if we hit first (+6 still very good for initiative so hopefully happens a lot) free advantage. If we get the drop free crits. Sneak attack goes to 2D6. Your stealth should be +9 at this point so sneaking ahead and getting a free hit in isn't hard, your hand crossbow should have a 120ft range thanks to sharpshooter so if you roll high on the initiative order you should be able to hit MOST things before they move.
Level 9 - Rogue (4) - ASI - +2 Dex. Need to start boosting this up, you're going to start finding that your sharp shooter shots will be missing a bit more now, Prof bonus goes up this turn so its +2 to your hit (other option here could be Alert as a feat to almost guarentee your going first most of the time as you would have +11 to Int...That said I feel that by this stage your going to start wanting that extra Dex.
Level 10 - Rogue (5) - Uncanny Dodge is good, Extra D6 on sneak attack also good, very good little level here. I take this here over starting the Multi due to Having no real good uses for our reaction at this level, boosted damage from sneak attack and the fact that so many campaigns end at level 10 and this is WAY better than one level of fighter if thats all you're going to get.
Level 11 - Fighter (1) - Yep a 3rd Multi - Its a pity you cant take Archery Style Twice or this would have been amazing, Only one of value is Defence style for the extra +1 AC so take that. Little heal from Second Wind but nothing amazing. This is for the next 2 levels
Level 12 - Fighter (2) - Action Surge, now if you hit first you can hit 7 times (2 attacks from ranger, 1 from gloom stalker and since its still first turn you can action all 3 again) and the bonus action all at advantage. 14 dice rolled here odds of a crit are looking good. Massive first turn hit
Level 13 - Fighter (3) - Champion Subclass - Why? because that decent shot at a crit from last level just doubled Crit on 19-20
Level 14 - Fighter (4) - Just for the ASI - Get your Dex to 20 (or alert if you find your not going first enough and move the dex to below)
Level 15 - Rogue (6) - Expertise on 2 more skills. I took theives tools as we ran into a lot of traps and investigation because im a bit of a loot whore but this can be whatever your party needs but pick whatever floats your boat.
Level 16 Rogue (7) - Evasion is very good - 4D6 on Sneak attack is very good
Level 17 Rogue (8) - ASI - Take Alert - +5 to Initiative gives you a +13 meaning your going to go first ALOT and get the best out of your abilities. Naturally this is a +2 Dex if you took Alert earlier.
Level 18 - Rogue (9)- This is a basically useless feature especially at level 18 but its another D6 to your sneak attack so not a useless level
Level 19 - Rogue (10) - This is why we kept boosting Rogue. Extra ASI - I picked Lucky here. Other than that Wisdom +2 maybe but all in all Lucky is better
Level 20 - Rogue (11) - Reliable Talent isn't bad, not really a level 20 abiltiy but its also now 6D6 Sneak attack.
I really do not believe you will ever fall behind on the damage using this character idea, you have 8 skills 4 with expertise, 3 tool proficiency at least +13 to initiative and the ability to do MASSIVE damage turn 1 and then decent damage every following turn. Outside of the action surge you are basically non-rest dependent at all, you can go balls to the wall outside of surge EVERY TURN.
You will not be as powerful as a high level wizard, but nothing is. you will be competitive at all times outside of fights where your ranged abilities are gone but even then you can fight from close range thanks to crossbow expert and that's the goal.
Any tips, suggestions, other ways to improve this id love to hear it
You have a lot of versatility from the large number of classes, but picking that many reduces the ability to get the higher level more powerful abilities. You will get better incriminated power increases, but depends on what role the character is to play.
5e I really do not like the idea of multi-classing that much. May just be me, but I really miss prestige classes.
edit: spelling changes from typos on a handheld at night.
In terms of spellcasters I agree wholeheartedly. The higher level spells like say...Wish for instance is so grossly overpowered that if you were to Multi-class and get that later or not at all then yes I am losing a lot of versatility.
But with these classes they are quite front loaded and I really do not feel that I lose a whole lot More so on the ranger side.
For ranger Up to level 10 honestly the only good thing that comes after level 5 is the Wisdom Proficiency the rest is fairly meh to be honest. That is going up against Uncanny dodge, Expertise, sneak attacks, extra skills, Cunning Action. To me this is a no-brainer. Of course I lose out on the spells too but ive never really thought too much of the Ranger Spell list. Some of the stuff is cool but in terms of combat usefulness id rather be dishing out bigger damage.
Up to level 20 of course more spells and there is some cool stuff i miss out on,. Stalkers Flurry is fun, Vanish is just a worse Cunning Action more favored enemies is meh Shadowy Dodge is cool, Feral Sense is situational and Foe Slayer is cool.
But instead I get to Crit on 19 and 20, Uncanny Dodge IMO is better than Shadowy Dodge (as disadvantage may still hit where as Uncanny will always 1/2) as I said Vanish is a worse cunning action. Evasion is amazing considering how often Dex saving throws come up. And Sneak attack is better than Foe Slayer by a mile.
All in all to me its not even close as a competition for if this multi is better than ranger.
Now Rogue is a bit harder because Rogue is quite good.
Since Rogue in my multi is level 5 at level 10 the things we lose at that level are 1 extra ASI and Evasion as well as getting the Sneak attack to 5D6 over the 3D6 of my build. This is fairly big..BUT you gain some BIG things. Extra attack is a huge one, dark vision, an extra attack round 1, some of those spells are very useful (Pass without a trace is invaluable at times) all in all while Rogue is very good on its own I still think my Multi gives more at level 10 than Rogue on its own (As an Assassin as thats the Sub I chose)
At level 20. Well Mine goes to level 11 so Anything prior to that I wont look at since I get it.
Imposter is situational at best, Blindsense is cool but situational Slippery Mind is good, Death strike is very cool but hardly worth it as a level 17 ability, Elusive is a loss as thats very cool and Stroke of luck is very good too.
But again instead of those abilities where 3 of them are good your getting, More Crits, Extra Attack and the big one. Action Surge. Turn 1 if you attack first and surge you hit 7 times and all with advantage. Odds of a crit (since its 19-20) is something around 86%. Hold your Sneak attack and your doing BIG damage.
So all in all, I believe that 5E is built in a way that its not Capstone or bust at higher levels. Sure I wont be able to compete with a Wizard with Wish due to the obscene power of that spell but I should always be relevant which was the goal.....I hate feeling useless for whole level or 2 at a time which can easily happen with some classes
Moon Druids are actually one of the strongest classes in the game but yeah, this build works. It requires a lot of dedication and you'll probably going to feel that you miss quite a bit up to level 14 (when you get your first Dex increase). If you manage to take this all the way to level 20 it will probably be a solid character.
Depends when you chose to to get the +2 Dex increase. Yes you could take it at 14 or you could take it back at level 9 (Depends if you think that Alert or +2 Dex is more valuable).
Well, I was going by what you wrote and that was at level 14. But even at level 9 you're going to miss quite a lot.
yeah bro it will definitely work
1. Bonus action to heal to full health is one of the strongest abilities in the game. They get this at level 2 and it only gets better the higher level they get. They also get arguably the best capstone ability in the game at level 20 unlimited (Wildshape) bonus action full heals. When your HP approaches infinite you are pretty hard to deal with. This is not even taking into consideration that you are still a 20th level full caster if your enemies somehow do manage to knock you out of Wildshape.
2. You can only do this if the multi-class requirements are not enforced. Every DM I have played with, myself included, enforce these.
You can multiclass into Fighter with Dex.
The fighter can be either a STR or DEX build for the multiclassing https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/customization-options#Multiclassing requirements. The Ranger requires a 13 DEX and 13 WIS. The 13 WIS is the only thing his build would need and that should be fairly simple.
Well yeah. It has a wisdom of 16. The stats are right there in the OP.
Where do you get "heal to full health"? At 2nd level you will only be healing 1d8 (1st level slot) with a bonus action.
Wildshape gives you the health of the creature that you wildshape into. It's not exactly full health, but it's pretty solid.
If you were thinking Cure Wounds it's not a bonus action and Healing Word is 1d4 plus spellcasting mod as a 1st level spell.
The way you do these comparisons is not to look at what you get but at what you give up.
For example, you are
Ranger 5/Rogue 11/ Fighter 4.
Clearly you are mainly a Rogue. Yes, Fighter is front loaded, but look at what you get for Fighter 4 vs Rogue 15.
Fighter 4 gives:
1 feat/ASI (equal)Rogue 15 Assassin gives you
ASI/Feat (equal)That is a tough call, not a no brainer - mainy because Imposter is a build / game dependent thing. Is it worth the extra fighting style? But 2d6 Sneak Attack is likely better than Improved Crit. (1/in 20 double dice vs constant 2d6 and 1/20 double 2d6). Action Surge is worth the Blindsense 10ft, but wisdom proficiency is a huge benefit to you, much better than second wind +1d10+4 hp and the extra couple of hp. Personally I think that the Ranger/Rogue combo has a slight benefit over the Ranger/Rogue/Fighter. But I can see going the other way if you really want a 1/day extra attacks. If the game is social focused/city game, then Imposter becomes worthwhile and there is no real contest.
Mog_DracovThis is a very good comparison.
For me however. 2d6 isn't a huge amount of extra damage in the grand scheme of things compared to the massive amount that can be done with action surge considering it adds 3 possible sharpshooter attacks likely at advantage. If action surge was long rest dependent i'd 100% agree that the assassin and the extra sneak attack is way better but its decently likely that i'll have a surge for a good amount of fights which I believe put its above the 2d6 to me.
Considering that a few of the things as you pointed out are nearly useless. I've scored each of these based on how useful they are (and the stuff i've excluded are things like imposter and the extra hit points that are fairly useless so 3 is the most useful and it goes down after that.
Fighter
Vs
Rogue
So its 7 for Fighter vs 6.5 for more Rogue. And it really comes down to Action Surge and improved Critical vs Wisdom Save Proficiency and more Sneak attack...and to me the amount of extra damage you can put out on those early turns and maybe completely demolish a dangerous spell caster or similar is too valuable .
Again. Action Surge resets on Short Rest. Its not a once a day ability it can be used a few times if you can chill for a bit which is not overly crazy. Even in big dungeons you can usually rest for a hour.
That said its not so clear that there is no other way, this is just my preference.
Assuming heavy crossbow (1d10), +5 dex and +10 from sharpshooter, Action Surge would get you 20.5 average damage per hit and 26 per crit. If we assume 3 hits and ignore crits and misses, that would be an average of 61.5 extra damage. 2d6 is 7 average damage and 14 average damage on a crit. You would have to get 9 normal sneak attacks in to surpass the damage of 1 3 hit action surge. If we assume 3 rounds of combat per encounter, that's the encounters per short rest.
Therefore, in groups where short rests are frequent, Action Surge pulls ahead. Additionally, the disability to spread the damage out is advantageous for whittling numbers at the start of a massive fight, as is the ability to nova an extremely dangerous enemy.
If the PC were going to have the ability to capitalize on reaction attacks in addition to their normal attacks, then it would push the edge more in favor of the extra 2d6 for straight up output.
Of course, this does not factor in crits or the -5, both of which also favor the sneak attack damage in general. Since the OP is favoring the nova and first strike ability and seems to be confident in short rests appearing regularly, I think action surge is a great idea.
its a hand crossbow as its a class that abuses crossbow expert.
Most groups in my experience short rests aren't uncommon. Its not like even in a dungeon you couldn't stop running around for a hour, unlike long rest there is no need to sleep during a short rest so its far safer, this is also a class that gets rope trick quite early on (earlier than action surge) making short rests quite easy to do.
Again this is of course DM dependent, if your DM says that you must run run run run run and never stop then i'd probably go with the extra levels of rogue. But considering you wouldn't go into the multi until level 11 i'd hope by that stage you have worked out your DM and whether they let you short rest a bit. That said and this is important this is entirely dependent on how long your campaign goes for. Most go to level 10 in which case you wont see most of the later stuff and your capstone is uncanny dodge (which is a good ability).
But as my friend above noted each has its its own use. The Nova ability of the action surge and the ability to throw the damage around to multiple enemies is more useful to me. The issue with sneak attack and really with rogues in general is that they are really only intended to attack once and get that sneak attack from that. its always funny to me to attack once for like 60 damage then a second attack for 8. This idea is a bit of a crit fisher. 6D6 critting is still nice even at super high levels and when your doing first turn 4 attacks and 87ish % chance to crit (assuming going first and getting assassin advantage)
Lets average out what you can do turn 1 with a +2 hand crossbow which is putting it small assuming all hit (and your hitting at around +10 with sharpshooter at this level so with advantage hitting all attacks isn't THAT crazy.
Attack 1 - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 2 - 1d6+7+10 (Lets say this is the crit) so you add the sneak attack here - 25 + 42 (adverage of 12d6) so 67
Attack 3 - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average then you add another D8 for dread ambusher - so 25
Attack 4 (Bonus) - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 5 (Surge) - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 6 (Surge) 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 7 (Surge Dread Ambusher) 1d6+7+10 - 21 average then you add another D8 for dread ambusher - so 25
So assuming you hit all the attacks which with advantage isn't overly crazy, and only with a +2 Bow at lvl 20 which could easily be a +3 bow with no magic ammo.....You hit 201 damage. Which on your own has the possibility to take out a TONNE of enemies, or you can share the love and mow down a whole room of people.
This is assuming a single crit which as I said 87% chance to happen thanks to surge and improved critical.
Each turn after that your chance to crit of course drops down to around 45% if you can get some advantage and far less. But lets take the crit out because it has such a lower chance and look at now
Attack 1 - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 2 - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 3 (Bonus) - 1d6+7+10 - 21
and 6d6 for another 21 average
so another 84 damage each turn after.
Lets compare to full rogue again assuming all hits for both and a crit on turn 1 even though its FAR less likely
Attack 1 - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 2 - 1d6+7+10 (Lets say this is the crit) so you add the sneak attack here - 25 + 56 (average of 16d6) so 81
Attack 3 - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average then you add another D8 for dread ambusher - so 25
Attack 4 (Bonus) - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Now i'm being kind here due to the fact that not hitting a crit is a MASSIVE damage loss. but its still only 148 turn 1 if you do get super lucky then each turn after
Attack 1 - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 2 - 1d6+7+10 - 21 average.
Attack 3 (Bonus) - 1d6+7+10 - 21
and 8d6 for another 28 average
91 each turn after. So i'm giving up 50ish damage turn 1 to gain 7 each following turn and again....This assumes a crit which the rogue straight on turn one had i believe around a 25% chance to get vs the 87% chance of the fighter multi...So in that cause you can drop the damage of the first turn by another 30ish meaning its an 80ish damage difference.
This is where my thinking goes. My math may be a bit off but thats a LOT of damage to give up
I went with heavy crossbow for the maximum damage to overcome. With the hand crossbow, you're only coming down 2 average damage per attack meaning that your 61.5 average damage for action Surge is now only 55.5 and 8 sneak attacks without a crit to overcome.
However, as you confirmed, you are placing more emphasis on the ability to spread the live around and nova over potential top end damage (which is no guarantee). Action surge gives the highest floor of damage while the higher sneak attack gives the highest ceiling. As has also been stated, they're close enough that prioritizing one type enhances its value to the build.
Edit: something else that's interesting is that this build devalues Hunters Mark on the first round unless there is something that can take more than three hits during the first round. Something like Hail of Thorns becomes more interesting aside from being able to move the mark after the fact. Outside of being able to hit 3 or more targets with Hail or have a creature take 3 or more hits, you're likely better off just taking the bonus action attack and saving your slots.
Another side effect is that with so many attacks (especially at advantage), you can afford to let the sneak attack slide down the list until you have 1 or 2 attacks left or until you crit. Getting to roll between 12 and 14 times on an opening round with a 10% chance per roll to get a 19-20 means that you'll often get 1 or 2 crits in the bunch (hopefully not all representing the same attack) even if you don't get the autocrit from surprise.