As a DM of multiple groups, we've began playing digitally on Foundry VTT for a couple years now. I've noticed that some of the mechanics are great or don't really matter for Theatre of the Mind, but does matter in large ways when you try to apply it to a digital Map or game board. One thing that I feel is imperative, as the game begins to adapt and transform to more players online, is this difference between these different platforms. I feel very strongly that the developers need to think of these new changes as how it applies to both styles of gameplay.
Here's a perfect example: Dark vision. This ability is way too abundant and powerful in the digital realm. Not only is the vision too large, but too many races have it that shouldn't have it or maybe they should have watered down versions of it. It basically makes Light sources useless and null while pushing players away from the few races that have it. 60 ft. is too large unless you are playing a race that specifically would have it due to it's origins such as a Drow Elf or other Underdark creature. With theatre of the mind it doesn't matter that much because it's more about whether you have it or not, but on a board it takes away the ability to have scary monsters in the dark you can't see, or dungeons where the torch goes out or all sorts of fun gameplay mechanics. I hope that this gets peeled back with the new changes. We've homebrewed this to mechanic to about half of what the norm is and it's made the gameplay way better and has brought the importance of light back into the game again.
I'm interested to hear your suggestions on other mechanics that could be improved with the differences between these two platforms. I feel this seriously needs to be considered as they move into the digital era. :)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To know the light, you must sometimes experience the dark.
As much as I hate to say it this way, the issue is that you aren't using dark vision correctly.
In complete darkness, the characters can see as if they were in dim light, so they have disadvantage on attack rolls and checks that rely on sight. They also only see things in gray scale, and many things that lurk in the dark, especially ambush predators with blind sight, have adapted to use that to their advantage. Traps and puzzles can make use of different colors in the same shade, which will all appear the same shade of gray when viewed with dark vision.
Thus, dark vision only applies 2 real benefits. The first is that you can avoid bumping into walls and such in complete darkness. The second is that you can see in dim light as if it were brightly lit, thus negating the associated penalties in a dimly lit environment.
If used correctly, lighting is still very important, even when every character in the party has dark vision. If you want to add that element of terror of being blind in the dark, use creatures that know how to exploit dark vision. Some oozes would be nearly impossible to spot using dark vision alone and some can be excellent sources of fear, like the Oblex and Black Pudding, for example. Balhannoths are another creature that could easily fool creatures relying on dark vision, as the imperfection of its reality warping ability might only be noticeable if you can see that the colors are really weird since they are blind and wouldn't know what color anything should be.
EDIT: As an added option, if you really want the terror of the dark feel, here are a couple options:
Option 1: use continual magical darkness effects - the magical darkness can only be suppressed by a light spell cast using a spell slot that is equal to or higher than the one used to create the magic darkness, and the magical darkness returns once the light goes away. Dispel magic only suppresses the effect in an area for a short time (maybe up to an hour). The players get magical torches or lanterns that can suppress the darkness, but they only last as long as their non-magical equivalents. Trueseeing spell and the warlock invocation Devil's Sight would get past this, but if your players don't have either of these at their disposal, this would give you the truest equivalent to that dark dungeon terror.
Option 2: fill the location with an ever-present mist that is very thick and cold, making everything heavily obscured. The mist is suppressed by heat, so a torch will clear it away in the same radius that it provides bright light to, and the mist becomes lighter in the radius that the torch provides dim light to. Other light sources will not work unless they also produce heat, thus lanterns are significantly less effective than torches, the Light cantrip does nothing at all, but Produce Flame will function similar to the torch (clearing all mist in the bright light radius, reducing mist to light obscurity in the dim light radius). Once the heat source goes away, the mist fills back into that space quickly. Make the location naturally dark on top of having the mist, and you've got your dark dungeon crawl with the need for torches to actually navigate the place, as Trueseeing and Devil's Sight don't help at all against the mist.
I believe the OP and the first responder are both making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be.
If the area is dark (magical or non-magical) and there is no light source to provide dim lighting (magical or non-magical) then it just goes to the dice. Stealth checks for any creature trying to sneak up on the party in those conditions are made with Advantage (presuming that creature has blindsight or some other sense that ignores the dark), and Perception checks to detect it are made with Disadvantage.
Even if there is no baddie trying to creep up on the party, Perception checks made to see the secret door, the plot MacGuffin, or the deadly trap are still all made with Disadvantage. As DM you know the DC to detect the thing, so you let the dice resolve it. Of course, your players can always (with minis/VTT or in theater of the mind) describe how they are going about looking, and if they "rule of cool" it well enough, you can give them a bonus or say they have overcome the effects of the Disadvantage for this check. Nothing about the existing or proposed rules prevents you from doing that.
Also, remember you are the DM. As Gary Gygax always reminded everyone in both the PHB and the DMG, the DM has the final word at your table. If you don't like the way a RAW works, then rewrite it for your table. As a reliable narrator of the game world, I think you should explain the new rule to players before you put it in play, and if everyone else doesn't like it, you may have to rethink your approach. Chances are if something bugs you about a certain rule, something bothers the players as well--discuss what really irks everyone about the rule and start with where you can find common ground (remind them the monsters will be constrained by the same rule as the players). Then nibble your way around the edges of the problem until you come to a variation of the rule for your table that seems to work better for everyone.
In complete darkness, the characters can see as if they were in dim light, so they have disadvantage on attack rolls and checks that rely on sight.
I don’t believe this is correct. Dim light gives disadvantage on perception checks only. Full darkness is required to give disadvantage on attacks (gives Blinded condition)
The actual rules are not what I'm debating here necessarily, the point I was trying to make was that some mechanics and rules aren't cohesive when you start playing on a digital map with tokens and vision, and lighting ect. A lot of the rules and mechanics in D&D are coming from an old world mentality where people used to play with theatre of the mind and RPG aspects cause that's all we had. Look at all the Campaign Books, almost none of them are map and digital compatible for those of us trying to play online, which is why they are creating a new VTT. They realize this. The main point I was trying to make is that they need to be thinking of these new transitions and compatibility issues as they move into the digital realm with this game. The new rules and changes need to comply with these differences. I wasn't looking for a debate on current rulesets but rather what things do you guys see as things they need to be aware of with this in mind. Darkvision was just an example of one of these issues that I feel needs looked at from a digital realm point of view. There are many others as well. :)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To know the light, you must sometimes experience the dark.
ShanusDee, you bring up some really great points. For the first maybe 30 years of D&D play my groups never used minis or battlemaps and it gave a particular experience which is very different from the experience players get today. (We did sometimes use dice or coins on a hastily-scribbled map if general locations were needed to become more specific; I don't count that because it wasn't the main playstyle.) Whereas older campaigns had characters making general "what do you do" decisions, my players today are busy counting squares and making more tactical maneuvers on a grid. So if a monster went invisible (for example) it used to be easy to hand-wave that they were "somewhere" which couldn't be detected, but now as DM I really need to pay attention to the exact square occupied because it might become important as characters move on the grid. All of this paradigm shifting in play style ought to be addressed in some way in the rules, and a shift from tabletop to computer interface will cause another shift to be occurring.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Player * Game Master * Started with OD&D in 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" -- Dave Arneson
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As a DM of multiple groups, we've began playing digitally on Foundry VTT for a couple years now. I've noticed that some of the mechanics are great or don't really matter for Theatre of the Mind, but does matter in large ways when you try to apply it to a digital Map or game board. One thing that I feel is imperative, as the game begins to adapt and transform to more players online, is this difference between these different platforms. I feel very strongly that the developers need to think of these new changes as how it applies to both styles of gameplay.
Here's a perfect example: Dark vision. This ability is way too abundant and powerful in the digital realm. Not only is the vision too large, but too many races have it that shouldn't have it or maybe they should have watered down versions of it. It basically makes Light sources useless and null while pushing players away from the few races that have it. 60 ft. is too large unless you are playing a race that specifically would have it due to it's origins such as a Drow Elf or other Underdark creature. With theatre of the mind it doesn't matter that much because it's more about whether you have it or not, but on a board it takes away the ability to have scary monsters in the dark you can't see, or dungeons where the torch goes out or all sorts of fun gameplay mechanics. I hope that this gets peeled back with the new changes. We've homebrewed this to mechanic to about half of what the norm is and it's made the gameplay way better and has brought the importance of light back into the game again.
I'm interested to hear your suggestions on other mechanics that could be improved with the differences between these two platforms. I feel this seriously needs to be considered as they move into the digital era. :)
To know the light, you must sometimes experience the dark.
As much as I hate to say it this way, the issue is that you aren't using dark vision correctly.
In complete darkness, the characters can see as if they were in dim light, so they have disadvantage on attack rolls and checks that rely on sight. They also only see things in gray scale, and many things that lurk in the dark, especially ambush predators with blind sight, have adapted to use that to their advantage. Traps and puzzles can make use of different colors in the same shade, which will all appear the same shade of gray when viewed with dark vision.
Thus, dark vision only applies 2 real benefits. The first is that you can avoid bumping into walls and such in complete darkness. The second is that you can see in dim light as if it were brightly lit, thus negating the associated penalties in a dimly lit environment.
If used correctly, lighting is still very important, even when every character in the party has dark vision. If you want to add that element of terror of being blind in the dark, use creatures that know how to exploit dark vision. Some oozes would be nearly impossible to spot using dark vision alone and some can be excellent sources of fear, like the Oblex and Black Pudding, for example. Balhannoths are another creature that could easily fool creatures relying on dark vision, as the imperfection of its reality warping ability might only be noticeable if you can see that the colors are really weird since they are blind and wouldn't know what color anything should be.
EDIT: As an added option, if you really want the terror of the dark feel, here are a couple options:
Option 1: use continual magical darkness effects - the magical darkness can only be suppressed by a light spell cast using a spell slot that is equal to or higher than the one used to create the magic darkness, and the magical darkness returns once the light goes away. Dispel magic only suppresses the effect in an area for a short time (maybe up to an hour). The players get magical torches or lanterns that can suppress the darkness, but they only last as long as their non-magical equivalents. Trueseeing spell and the warlock invocation Devil's Sight would get past this, but if your players don't have either of these at their disposal, this would give you the truest equivalent to that dark dungeon terror.
Option 2: fill the location with an ever-present mist that is very thick and cold, making everything heavily obscured. The mist is suppressed by heat, so a torch will clear it away in the same radius that it provides bright light to, and the mist becomes lighter in the radius that the torch provides dim light to. Other light sources will not work unless they also produce heat, thus lanterns are significantly less effective than torches, the Light cantrip does nothing at all, but Produce Flame will function similar to the torch (clearing all mist in the bright light radius, reducing mist to light obscurity in the dim light radius). Once the heat source goes away, the mist fills back into that space quickly. Make the location naturally dark on top of having the mist, and you've got your dark dungeon crawl with the need for torches to actually navigate the place, as Trueseeing and Devil's Sight don't help at all against the mist.
I believe the OP and the first responder are both making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be.
If the area is dark (magical or non-magical) and there is no light source to provide dim lighting (magical or non-magical) then it just goes to the dice. Stealth checks for any creature trying to sneak up on the party in those conditions are made with Advantage (presuming that creature has blindsight or some other sense that ignores the dark), and Perception checks to detect it are made with Disadvantage.
Even if there is no baddie trying to creep up on the party, Perception checks made to see the secret door, the plot MacGuffin, or the deadly trap are still all made with Disadvantage. As DM you know the DC to detect the thing, so you let the dice resolve it. Of course, your players can always (with minis/VTT or in theater of the mind) describe how they are going about looking, and if they "rule of cool" it well enough, you can give them a bonus or say they have overcome the effects of the Disadvantage for this check. Nothing about the existing or proposed rules prevents you from doing that.
Also, remember you are the DM. As Gary Gygax always reminded everyone in both the PHB and the DMG, the DM has the final word at your table. If you don't like the way a RAW works, then rewrite it for your table. As a reliable narrator of the game world, I think you should explain the new rule to players before you put it in play, and if everyone else doesn't like it, you may have to rethink your approach. Chances are if something bugs you about a certain rule, something bothers the players as well--discuss what really irks everyone about the rule and start with where you can find common ground (remind them the monsters will be constrained by the same rule as the players). Then nibble your way around the edges of the problem until you come to a variation of the rule for your table that seems to work better for everyone.
I don’t believe this is correct. Dim light gives disadvantage on perception checks only. Full darkness is required to give disadvantage on attacks (gives Blinded condition)
The actual rules are not what I'm debating here necessarily, the point I was trying to make was that some mechanics and rules aren't cohesive when you start playing on a digital map with tokens and vision, and lighting ect. A lot of the rules and mechanics in D&D are coming from an old world mentality where people used to play with theatre of the mind and RPG aspects cause that's all we had. Look at all the Campaign Books, almost none of them are map and digital compatible for those of us trying to play online, which is why they are creating a new VTT. They realize this. The main point I was trying to make is that they need to be thinking of these new transitions and compatibility issues as they move into the digital realm with this game. The new rules and changes need to comply with these differences. I wasn't looking for a debate on current rulesets but rather what things do you guys see as things they need to be aware of with this in mind. Darkvision was just an example of one of these issues that I feel needs looked at from a digital realm point of view. There are many others as well. :)
To know the light, you must sometimes experience the dark.
ShanusDee, you bring up some really great points. For the first maybe 30 years of D&D play my groups never used minis or battlemaps and it gave a particular experience which is very different from the experience players get today. (We did sometimes use dice or coins on a hastily-scribbled map if general locations were needed to become more specific; I don't count that because it wasn't the main playstyle.) Whereas older campaigns had characters making general "what do you do" decisions, my players today are busy counting squares and making more tactical maneuvers on a grid. So if a monster went invisible (for example) it used to be easy to hand-wave that they were "somewhere" which couldn't be detected, but now as DM I really need to pay attention to the exact square occupied because it might become important as characters move on the grid. All of this paradigm shifting in play style ought to be addressed in some way in the rules, and a shift from tabletop to computer interface will cause another shift to be occurring.
Player * Game Master * Started with OD&D in 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" -- Dave Arneson