If it's already been confirmed/denied, feel free to ignore this (though I would like to see where it came from at the least); but I want to know. Sorcs are my favorite class but I won't deny for even a second that they are... lacking in power. Shall we say. The big issue being that their limited roster of spells with no ability to swap or change results in every spell needing to be chosen carefully and meta-magic doesn't make up the gap by any means. I've seen a multitude of suggestions from giving sub-classes specific spells like they did with the most recent ones to increasing the amount of meta-magic they can learn and other things. Is there any word or hint of this?
No information whatsoever has been issued on any class changes. Given the extraordinarily icy reception 1DD has been receiving, I doubt the initiative will last long enough to actually produce new books.
That's sad. While I admit I have issues with the direction 1DD is going (I suspect it will result in a lot of samey-characters for example) 5e really needs updating and reworks. I'm not saying 6e, but at least a 5.5e that fixes issues in class balance and the like.
Well, if Sorcerer end up gaining access to a shared spell list with Wizards, it would be a kind of buff as the 5e sorcerer spell list is a bit small compared to wizard. It would be nice if the two shared the same spell list. Though sorcerers having a rather small number of spells known will still hurt it. Honestly, would be nice if Sorcerers learned a new spell each level (in T3 they learn a new spell every other level and only learn one new spell in the entirety of T4. Not sure why they can't just learn a brand new spell each level and end up with 20 spells known by 20th level. This is especially true if they end up being able to learn from the entire wizard spell list as the additional options can really make picking a new spell unnecessary difficult.
WotC has made it clear that 1DD IS the future and going to happen, and I like the general direction of the flexibility they are going for, yeah its new and a different way to go but I am hopeful! It's still over a year out before it gold master drops. As for sorcerers, I think that its clear they are going to get a buff, look at the aberrant mind and clockwork soul in Tasha's and the Lunar Magic UA, they are going in a good direction with all of those. As for the amount of retcon that will be done on the older subclasses, well I think they will be re-worked with "optional features" of added expanded spell lists or an extra 6th level feature to match the 2 at 1 and 2 at 6 that we have seen with the above mentioned 3 subclasses. I think it will be more along the lines of expanded spell lists, which is my least preferred option but the easiest as adding or reworking the leveled features would require a larger rework and would step no the promised "backwards compatibility" that WotC has really been trying to make a point about.
If you look at however many spells a preparation caster can prepare at a given level a known caster should have that many or more. Wizards can change theirs out every rest, so known casters who are locked in until level up need more spells known than a wizard can prepare as they can't just swap out as the situation changes. They need a inherently more flexible list in a particular day but less flexible over a campaign. Part of that could be from reducing how many spells a wizard etc can prepare but part should also come from how many spells a sorcerer etc knows. The default should be like the new sorcerer sub classes where they know all their sub classes spells.
But if sorcerers gain access to the entire wizard spell list, and learn more spells than wizard can memorize, what's the point in being a wizard? While I can agree that sorcerer spell list feels constrained, new subclasses' bonus spells more than solve this porblem. I believe these features could simply be removed in exchange for +10 spells known, spread over levels, perhaps with some limitation in schools for flavor.
IMO it's a meaningful part of the wizard in having access to intricate and complicated spells like mordenkainen's faithful hound or simulacrum, spells that took decades of research and polish, that can't be replicated by someone who just channels raw magic power from within themselves.
I'm apprihensive about the 'flexibility' as I suspect that, with the removal of racial scores, instead of people going diverse because the stats no longer hold them back, we'll see them all flock to either human or whatever race gets the god-mode racial and then they'll have the same/similar background now to boot. But that's neither here nor there for this topic.
I do hope they do buff it. Wild Magic especially is serverly UP especially since it's core mechanic can be entirely negated by the GM just... not... resulting in a class who, basically, gets one free advantage per long rest and nothing else. IMO it would be cool if they could get a smattering of spells from ALL classes as their sub-class feature. Not unrestricted of course, but a few druid options, a few wizard, cleric, paladin, warlock... While something like Divine Soul or Clockwork gets either more from a specific class and/or stronger spells. Flexibility/'going wide' vs. specialization/'going tall'. I also feel like sorcs should get at least one more meta-magic and/or learn more as they level up. It's not as OP as people seem to think outside of some twinned shenanigans (like twin hasting your party) so I don't get why it's so... limited. It practically makes meta-magic adept a required feat (not that it's a bad feat otherwise) simply so you can get enough options.
But if sorcerers gain access to the entire wizard spell list, and learn more spells than wizard can memorize, what's the point in being a wizard? While I can agree that sorcerer spell list feels constrained, new subclasses' bonus spells more than solve this porblem. I believe these features could simply be removed in exchange for +10 spells known, spread over levels, perhaps with some limitation in schools for flavor.
IMO it's a meaningful part of the wizard in having access to intricate and complicated spells like mordenkainen's faithful hound or simulacrum, spells that took decades of research and polish, that can't be replicated by someone who just channels raw magic power from within themselves.
Well I don't think they should get the entire wiz list, named ones and maybe ones with expensive material components don't really seem to fit for me for example but they should probably have a few unique ones as well. And yes they should know more than the wizard can prepare as the wizard can prepare an entirely different list the next day. Going to the elemental plane of fire, prep a new list, going to sneak into the castle and charm/control a wide range of guards, prep a new list etc. The sorcerer and other known casters are stuck with what they pick for a long time so they with the same number of known as the wizard can prepare will be vastly less versatile. I don't understand why anyone would play a sorcerer when not only does the wizard get to change spells daily so they have access to far more spells than you but in a day they can prepare more so every day they are more versatile than you even with their default spell prep list. Even if metamagic was impressive that is a hard sell.
Sorcerers cannot use Font of Magic to create spell slots of a spell level they do not have. If you're a second-level sorcerer, you can only create first-level slots. Burning all of your slots on sorcery points in order to unburn them back into the highest-level spell slots you can cast is an egregious and deeply inefficient waste of resources. Creating spell scrolls is not free, nor is it fast. Sorcerers cannot cast a spell scroll for a spell that isn't on the sorcerer spell list.
Honestly, every line in that post is kinna completely incorrect. Please try and understand the game rules before commenting on the balance thereof.
First off, creating a spell slot and converting a spell slot are both bonus actions and you can't go over cap. While you may be able to cast more 5th level slots it's gonna be every other turn, not every turn like you seem to think. Especially if we don't wanna waste points.
Secondly, we don't always want to CAST 5th level spells. There's great stuff at lower levels that either can't be upcast or doesn't scale well (EX: Misty Step or Absorb Elephants)
Thirdly how many 5th level spells do you think we KNOW? We only get 15 spells MAX. At level 20. Before factoring in what stuff our subclass gives us. While that does bring the total up even a Clockwork caps out at 25 spells. For comparison a Bard, which is not a pure caster, caps out at 22. For a Wild Mage, Draconic, Shadow, Divine Soul, or Storm, you're looking at way less. And there's limits to boot on what we can swap out those new spells for.
Fourthly; we CAN'T swap them out except on level up. And even then it's only 1 spell at a time. Other casters get other advantages. I'm not saying that, suddenly, Warlocks are gods compared to sorcs. I'm saying a sorc needs to figure out exactly what spells are 'ideal' and, if they mess up, they can't change it until their next level while a wizard or druid just needs nappy times.
Fifthly: Our 'balance' kind of sucks. Metamagic falls into either the 'OMGWTFOP' or, far more commonly, 'situational/underwhelming'. Especially when you realize that damage isn't everything and being able to subtle-spell a polymorph is more valuable than a fireball.
Finally, you're assuming that the DM gives us scrolls. Not every DM does that and it can, in fact, be quite limiting what we get.
Sorc's aren't 'spell nova damage', they're one-trick ponies who have to wait to level up to gain another trick and, even at best, they're still ponies. Not the galliant horse.
Well I don't think they should get the entire wiz list, named ones and maybe ones with expensive material components don't really seem to fit for me for example but they should probably have a few unique ones as well. And yes they should know more than the wizard can prepare as the wizard can prepare an entirely different list the next day. Going to the elemental plane of fire, prep a new list, going to sneak into the castle and charm/control a wide range of guards, prep a new list etc. The sorcerer and other known casters are stuck with what they pick for a long time so they with the same number of known as the wizard can prepare will be vastly less versatile. I don't understand why anyone would play a sorcerer when not only does the wizard get to change spells daily so they have access to far more spells than you but in a day they can prepare more so every day they are more versatile than you even with their default spell prep list. Even if metamagic was impressive that is a hard sell.
You know, I might be wrong and certainly a lot of people would disagree with me, but I always felt like sorcerer was supposed to be to a wizard what barbarian is to a battle master - a magic variant of brute. While wizard weaves complicated spell effects, sorcerer is more about blasting the hell out of things and being more tanky due to his body-altering features. A simpler kind of caster. Not every caster has to be super versatile.
But perhaps for this reason sorcerer would need his own unique spells that would offer extra flexibility for upcasting and expending sorcery points, like a proto-fireball at level 1 that deals 3d6 damage in a 10ft radius, and then grows in both damage and radius - reflecting sorcerer's control over raw magic rather than wizard's fixed formulas.
I do not understand what you're getting at. I was saying that we don't always want to cast 5th level spell slots or upscale a spell and it took two bonus actions to first convert a spell slot into sorc points then covert it from sorc points into spell slots.
Sorcs are my favorite class but I won't deny for even a second that they are... lacking in power.
How is Sorcerer lacking in power? What they are lacking in is utility and versatility, not power. If anything Sorcerer are one of, if not the most powerful class in terms of their potential damage output. Sorcerer definitely aren't anywhere near needing a buff, they are with wizards, clerics and druids in needing a nerf. Perhaps some reworking on sorcerer to give them more versatility/utility with the nerf but they are definitely in line for needing a nerf.
Also you likely share spell lists and feats with wizard, artificers, bards and warlocks in the mages class group.
Bard and Artificer are already confirmed to be in the Expert class group, I find it highly unlikely classes will be in multiple groups, perhaps some subclass might do it but I doubt it. It sounds like they are balancing things around having 1 character from each group for a 4-person party.
Sorcerers cannot use Font of Magic to create spell slots of a spell level they do not have. If you're a second-level sorcerer, you can only create first-level slots. Burning all of your slots on sorcery points in order to unburn them back into the highest-level spell slots you can cast is an egregious and deeply inefficient waste of resources. Creating spell scrolls is not free, nor is it fast. Sorcerers cannot cast a spell scroll for a spell that isn't on the sorcerer spell list.
Honestly, every line in that post is kinna completely incorrect. Please try and understand the game rules before commenting on the balance thereof.
But he used so much caps lock to post that it has to be correct!
But anyway, on topic, yeah I hope they get a buff by fixing the base class and non tasha's subs. More than 2 metamagics before level 10, move the capstone ability to like.. level 2 or 3. Than revisit the spells that wizards get that sorcerers don't and give sorcerers more of those spells.
If it's already been confirmed/denied, feel free to ignore this (though I would like to see where it came from at the least); but I want to know. Sorcs are my favorite class but I won't deny for even a second that they are... lacking in power. Shall we say. The big issue being that their limited roster of spells with no ability to swap or change results in every spell needing to be chosen carefully and meta-magic doesn't make up the gap by any means. I've seen a multitude of suggestions from giving sub-classes specific spells like they did with the most recent ones to increasing the amount of meta-magic they can learn and other things. Is there any word or hint of this?
No information whatsoever has been issued on any class changes. Given the extraordinarily icy reception 1DD has been receiving, I doubt the initiative will last long enough to actually produce new books.
Please do not contact or message me.
That's sad. While I admit I have issues with the direction 1DD is going (I suspect it will result in a lot of samey-characters for example) 5e really needs updating and reworks. I'm not saying 6e, but at least a 5.5e that fixes issues in class balance and the like.
Well, if Sorcerer end up gaining access to a shared spell list with Wizards, it would be a kind of buff as the 5e sorcerer spell list is a bit small compared to wizard. It would be nice if the two shared the same spell list. Though sorcerers having a rather small number of spells known will still hurt it. Honestly, would be nice if Sorcerers learned a new spell each level (in T3 they learn a new spell every other level and only learn one new spell in the entirety of T4. Not sure why they can't just learn a brand new spell each level and end up with 20 spells known by 20th level. This is especially true if they end up being able to learn from the entire wizard spell list as the additional options can really make picking a new spell unnecessary difficult.
WotC has made it clear that 1DD IS the future and going to happen, and I like the general direction of the flexibility they are going for, yeah its new and a different way to go but I am hopeful! It's still over a year out before it gold master drops. As for sorcerers, I think that its clear they are going to get a buff, look at the aberrant mind and clockwork soul in Tasha's and the Lunar Magic UA, they are going in a good direction with all of those. As for the amount of retcon that will be done on the older subclasses, well I think they will be re-worked with "optional features" of added expanded spell lists or an extra 6th level feature to match the 2 at 1 and 2 at 6 that we have seen with the above mentioned 3 subclasses. I think it will be more along the lines of expanded spell lists, which is my least preferred option but the easiest as adding or reworking the leveled features would require a larger rework and would step no the promised "backwards compatibility" that WotC has really been trying to make a point about.
If you look at however many spells a preparation caster can prepare at a given level a known caster should have that many or more. Wizards can change theirs out every rest, so known casters who are locked in until level up need more spells known than a wizard can prepare as they can't just swap out as the situation changes. They need a inherently more flexible list in a particular day but less flexible over a campaign. Part of that could be from reducing how many spells a wizard etc can prepare but part should also come from how many spells a sorcerer etc knows. The default should be like the new sorcerer sub classes where they know all their sub classes spells.
But if sorcerers gain access to the entire wizard spell list, and learn more spells than wizard can memorize, what's the point in being a wizard? While I can agree that sorcerer spell list feels constrained, new subclasses' bonus spells more than solve this porblem. I believe these features could simply be removed in exchange for +10 spells known, spread over levels, perhaps with some limitation in schools for flavor.
IMO it's a meaningful part of the wizard in having access to intricate and complicated spells like mordenkainen's faithful hound or simulacrum, spells that took decades of research and polish, that can't be replicated by someone who just channels raw magic power from within themselves.
I'm apprihensive about the 'flexibility' as I suspect that, with the removal of racial scores, instead of people going diverse because the stats no longer hold them back, we'll see them all flock to either human or whatever race gets the god-mode racial and then they'll have the same/similar background now to boot. But that's neither here nor there for this topic.
I do hope they do buff it. Wild Magic especially is serverly UP especially since it's core mechanic can be entirely negated by the GM just... not... resulting in a class who, basically, gets one free advantage per long rest and nothing else. IMO it would be cool if they could get a smattering of spells from ALL classes as their sub-class feature. Not unrestricted of course, but a few druid options, a few wizard, cleric, paladin, warlock... While something like Divine Soul or Clockwork gets either more from a specific class and/or stronger spells. Flexibility/'going wide' vs. specialization/'going tall'. I also feel like sorcs should get at least one more meta-magic and/or learn more as they level up. It's not as OP as people seem to think outside of some twinned shenanigans (like twin hasting your party) so I don't get why it's so... limited. It practically makes meta-magic adept a required feat (not that it's a bad feat otherwise) simply so you can get enough options.
Well I don't think they should get the entire wiz list, named ones and maybe ones with expensive material components don't really seem to fit for me for example but they should probably have a few unique ones as well. And yes they should know more than the wizard can prepare as the wizard can prepare an entirely different list the next day. Going to the elemental plane of fire, prep a new list, going to sneak into the castle and charm/control a wide range of guards, prep a new list etc. The sorcerer and other known casters are stuck with what they pick for a long time so they with the same number of known as the wizard can prepare will be vastly less versatile. I don't understand why anyone would play a sorcerer when not only does the wizard get to change spells daily so they have access to far more spells than you but in a day they can prepare more so every day they are more versatile than you even with their default spell prep list. Even if metamagic was impressive that is a hard sell.
Sorcerers cannot use Font of Magic to create spell slots of a spell level they do not have. If you're a second-level sorcerer, you can only create first-level slots. Burning all of your slots on sorcery points in order to unburn them back into the highest-level spell slots you can cast is an egregious and deeply inefficient waste of resources. Creating spell scrolls is not free, nor is it fast. Sorcerers cannot cast a spell scroll for a spell that isn't on the sorcerer spell list.
Honestly, every line in that post is kinna completely incorrect. Please try and understand the game rules before commenting on the balance thereof.
Please do not contact or message me.
Yea... it doesn't work out like that.
First off, creating a spell slot and converting a spell slot are both bonus actions and you can't go over cap. While you may be able to cast more 5th level slots it's gonna be every other turn, not every turn like you seem to think. Especially if we don't wanna waste points.
Secondly, we don't always want to CAST 5th level spells. There's great stuff at lower levels that either can't be upcast or doesn't scale well (EX: Misty Step or Absorb Elephants)
Thirdly how many 5th level spells do you think we KNOW? We only get 15 spells MAX. At level 20. Before factoring in what stuff our subclass gives us. While that does bring the total up even a Clockwork caps out at 25 spells. For comparison a Bard, which is not a pure caster, caps out at 22. For a Wild Mage, Draconic, Shadow, Divine Soul, or Storm, you're looking at way less. And there's limits to boot on what we can swap out those new spells for.
Fourthly; we CAN'T swap them out except on level up. And even then it's only 1 spell at a time. Other casters get other advantages. I'm not saying that, suddenly, Warlocks are gods compared to sorcs. I'm saying a sorc needs to figure out exactly what spells are 'ideal' and, if they mess up, they can't change it until their next level while a wizard or druid just needs nappy times.
Fifthly: Our 'balance' kind of sucks. Metamagic falls into either the 'OMGWTFOP' or, far more commonly, 'situational/underwhelming'. Especially when you realize that damage isn't everything and being able to subtle-spell a polymorph is more valuable than a fireball.
Finally, you're assuming that the DM gives us scrolls. Not every DM does that and it can, in fact, be quite limiting what we get.
Sorc's aren't 'spell nova damage', they're one-trick ponies who have to wait to level up to gain another trick and, even at best, they're still ponies. Not the galliant horse.
You know, I might be wrong and certainly a lot of people would disagree with me, but I always felt like sorcerer was supposed to be to a wizard what barbarian is to a battle master - a magic variant of brute. While wizard weaves complicated spell effects, sorcerer is more about blasting the hell out of things and being more tanky due to his body-altering features. A simpler kind of caster. Not every caster has to be super versatile.
But perhaps for this reason sorcerer would need his own unique spells that would offer extra flexibility for upcasting and expending sorcery points, like a proto-fireball at level 1 that deals 3d6 damage in a 10ft radius, and then grows in both damage and radius - reflecting sorcerer's control over raw magic rather than wizard's fixed formulas.
I do not understand what you're getting at. I was saying that we don't always want to cast 5th level spell slots or upscale a spell and it took two bonus actions to first convert a spell slot into sorc points then covert it from sorc points into spell slots.
How is Sorcerer lacking in power? What they are lacking in is utility and versatility, not power. If anything Sorcerer are one of, if not the most powerful class in terms of their potential damage output. Sorcerer definitely aren't anywhere near needing a buff, they are with wizards, clerics and druids in needing a nerf. Perhaps some reworking on sorcerer to give them more versatility/utility with the nerf but they are definitely in line for needing a nerf.
Bard and Artificer are already confirmed to be in the Expert class group, I find it highly unlikely classes will be in multiple groups, perhaps some subclass might do it but I doubt it. It sounds like they are balancing things around having 1 character from each group for a 4-person party.
But he used so much caps lock to post that it has to be correct!
But anyway, on topic, yeah I hope they get a buff by fixing the base class and non tasha's subs. More than 2 metamagics before level 10, move the capstone ability to like.. level 2 or 3. Than revisit the spells that wizards get that sorcerers don't and give sorcerers more of those spells.