After playing the new playtest material with a short campaign around about 4~9 levels, I think Rogue's losing its identity, and it doesn't feel like "finding the solution to just about any problem" anymore.
We had a Hunter Ranger, a Lore Bard, a Theif Rogue (which I played) from the UA, and a Abjuration Wizard from 2014 phb. In that campaign, I felt I was kind of doing nothing the whole time. The Ranger basically can do exactly what I can, and even better. He expertised in Stealth and Perception for sure and can casts Pass Without Trace to help the whole team to sneak around. He also gained Thieves Tools proficiency from the Character Origins for there's nothing else good enough to prof with, and he also has Guidance to help skill checks from the start. In combats, the Ranger also outdamged me significantly with Hunter's Mark and three attacks by using TWF and Fighting Style, and he also can casts spells like Fog Cloud to help the team getting out of danger and stuffs. The Bard was also doing great in skills, especially in social skill checks like it was before, but better in utility for becoming a prepared caster. The new Bardic Inspiration also feels great when the Bard saved my teammates from death by a reaction.
It's like everybody's doing great except me, the Rogue. All I can do is to hit and run with a lower damage and without any actions or spells that really matters to the battle. All my features are combat-related but I still perform plain in combats. I don't even have a shield to bash with if I want to do something other than trying to get a Sneak Attack. It feels repetitive in a combat, and Sneak Attack even got harder to get since you don't have Steady Aim anymore and you can't Ready to SA either. And I was also unable to compete other Experts outside of combats at all, since I'm the only one that doesn't cast. My skill checks are even a bit weaker than other Experts for they all having spells that help, and they still get the same Expertise at 1.
I was especially, and still am disappointed to see Using Objects was deleted from Fast Hands. It has been the all player's favorite and the core feature for a Thief. I even think it should be the core feature of Rogue instead of as a subclass feature. It's really bad to see that feature's gone. Fast Hands was the most interesting and useful feature of the subclass before, but now it turns pretty useless. I even felt like I wasn't picking a subclass since I've never met a situation that requires me to take a Search Action during a battle in that campaign. It's such a rare occasion that I even haven't come across many times in my years of playing DnD. Especially I've never met a occasion that I need to steal something in a combat.
The video about Rogue&Thief released earlier said that Thief should have a feeling like they can "cheat" on any problems they met, but I don't feel like I can "cheat" on something at all. I feel like everybody else's been cheating by Spells and I'm just a normal guy in a world of fantasy. I literally have no options other than things that basic rules allow me to do for most of the time. After that playtest, Arcane Trickster has gained the "cheater" title in my heart instead, for at least they can cast illusion and enchantment spells that trick the enemies and steal or pick locks from ten feets away. Even the Battle Master Fighter has a better way to "cheat" than Thief by all kinds of Maneuvers that really have some special effects both in and out of combats.
The main reason why Rogue's been loosing its identity from my point of view, is that the main feature of Rogue that really help the team is skills, which Expertise took a great place in that, but now it has lost its speciality when every Expert is gaining Expertise as the common feature. While other Experts all gained Expertise at level-1, and only two levels later for all the four, it'll make them outstrip Rogue both in utility and role-playing badly for having both Expertise and Spellcasting.
Another problem is almost every feature of Rogue is combat-related, while they're mostly and only keeping the Rogue itself to stay alive, and cannot interact with other teammates or foes much. Rogue's mechanic cannot offer options for players to choose from and to have real impacts to the battlefield, like distracting/disabling enemies, or eliminating enemies fast and stable like the Rangers do, or protecting your friends from danger. It doesn't have something that effects enemies or teammates.
I think that Rogue really needs a unique core-feature or features that help the team now, and maybe a buff to the damage since it's the one of only four classes that cannot cast, and the only one in Expert Group. It shouldn't be this weak in damage and in utility, weaker than other Experts who can both cast and fight.
I really hope that we can see a better Rogue in the future releases, and I hope my experience may offer something useful to help making the new Rogue in odnd.
Agreed on pretty much everythng. WotC were very conservative about the rogue. They shouldn't have been. The core problem of martials vs casters is especially strong with the rogue, now that they have to compete with rangers and bards. Reliable talent is good, but it's no spellcasting.
IMO, rogues have to either gain access to maneuvers to cripple and otherwise mess with foes, or have something built into their cunning action. Rogues need options in combat.
Thieves can read one time use scrolls easier IF we can find them and the Arcana skill is still within our reach. I suspect the Arcana skill is going to be much harder to access once the Backgrounds are "updated" and access by Rogue Thief may be cut off. In any case scrolls vs daily charged items is an out of reach cost for most groups even if they agreed to.
The daily charged items skill where you have a 1 in 6 chance to use without a charge being used is a Charlie Brown football trick since they crippled UMD to the point of making it useless by removing the "You ignore all class, race, and level requirements on the use of magic items." In items with charges that eliminated the ability to use 75 items alone from the list of magic items with charges.
Over 35 non-charged items as well can no longer be used by thieves so that 4th Attunement slot is a sick joke since we will be lucky to fill 3 slots now.
They moved Evasion to 9th level from 7th, for no better reason than to tidy up the table? Thanks... Guess I could get a level of fighter and pick up Shield Mastery to get it back quicker.
Not even going over the other nerfs, why bother?
Being playing since the early 1970's and if this goes thru as written I think I am going to quit since I mainly play thru online and I do not see any group wanting a Rogue Thief when the new Ranger does everything a Thief can do now better in addition to his Ranger abilities.
Thanks for the thorough review, SoulknifeInfiltrator. That's pretty much exactly how I have been feeling during playtest too. The rogue feels like they have no character class at all compared to the rangers and bard. It's honestly sad. This might be my biggest complaint in the whole survey when I do it.
Yep, so far rogues have 1 thing. Cunning action. Bards have spells and bardic inspiration, Rangers have spells and martial features. Cunning action doesn't even come close to spells. Everything else is full on passive, and just about staying alive or is something the other classes get anyway. All the way until level 11. (no I don't consider sneak attack a feature, it is "how they do damage" compared to martials with multi-attack and casters with some of their spells and cantrips. Honestly, it is time to give rogue extra attack and a new out of combat feature. I want to see extra attack and uncanny dodge at 5. I want to see a Feat at level 6. I want to see reliable talent at 9 along WITH evasion. New pact tactics can be the new level 11 feature and then give them slippery mind at 13 + something else. and Elusive + something at 15, and something at 17. This is what they need, defensive ability + something to do with skills or other features.
(this is a big imagine how this feels. Level 5 feels better damage, level 6 you gain more options and identity with another feat. Level 7 you get expertise 2 levels earlier so you still feel like the skills expert and then by level 9 when everyone catches up you are getting reliable talent to keep yourself as the skills expert, they have spells to augment so you NEED this.)
Honestly, all Thief abilities should just be standard for a Rogue. I've always thought so, and even more so now. And give them back use an object with cunning action, and remove magic item restrictions for use magic device. At least they would feel like a Rogue is supposed to, and do things no one else can.
IMO: Rogue is kind of designed to be easy to use. If phb ranger was unofficially an advanced class, I would say a rogue is an easy starting class.
Now I do believe they were shorted and there is some loss. However, I also do believe their might have been things to do with the search action. if all else fails now your rules clearly say pickpocketing in combat is valid. Maybe even disarm them of a focus, weapon, key or some other useful item. maybe you could get a emotional trinket and throw it away making the enemy consider that more important than fighting you(influence?). who knows what you can do? This is still a creative game after all and when the rules become too simulationist, we need reminders to think outside the box.
IMO: Rogue is kind of designed to be easy to use. If phb ranger was unofficially an advanced class, I would say a rogue is an easy starting class.
Now I do believe they were shorted and there is some loss. However, I also do believe their might have been things to do with the search action. if all else fails now your rules clearly say pickpocketing in combat is valid. Maybe even disarm them of a focus, weapon, key or some other useful item. maybe you could get a emotional trinket and throw it away making the enemy consider that more important than fighting you(influence?). who knows what you can do? This is still a creative game after all and when the rules become too simulationist, we need reminders to think outside the box.
(My favorite pick pocket is searching for a spell scroll and then pick pocketing it and using it in the same turn at higher levels. But ya rogues are close to good. I just think you could bump a feature or 2 down a couple levels and we would be ok.
I've been playtesting with a group consisting of a Ranger, a Bard, a Rogue, and a Ranger/Rogue multiclass. In comparison to all of the other classes, the Rogue feels just awful. It's like playing a sidekick NPC stat line in a party of real characters. Everything the Rogue can do, the others can do at least as well, AND the others get spells and better combat abilities on top of it. The only thing the Rogue can do that they can't is run away from the fights they already weren't contributing to.
(The hide rules only exacerbate the problem)
Are they simple? I guess in one way. Only because they can't do anything. But designing a class that depends on the player getting super creative with their limited skills isn't really simple either. Adding 1d6 to all of your attacks for an hour with Hunter's Mark is simple.
The rogue right now has to think hard about every action in a turn just to try to get some value. And that's only in combat. Out of combat, the Ranger and Bard can be just as good at any stealth, traps, locks, or social skill.
The only unique, active abilities that a Thief Rogue gets for 10 levels is cunning action and a climb speed. Hiding is too hard at low levels to depend on. Searching and sleight of hand as a bonus action is very situational and requires DM buy in. The other classes get expertise too. So what makes a rogue a Rogue? They are good at running away.
I'm glad Rangers got a boost. But now they are just as good as Rogues at most of the things people play Rogues for. I think all of the classes need their levels adjusted. This UA version pushes too many class features to late levels. All of them suffer in flavor because of it. Thief abilities should just apply to every Rogue. If they fixed that, and made sneak attack more reliable again, it would feel like a unique class.
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After playing the new playtest material with a short campaign around about 4~9 levels, I think Rogue's losing its identity, and it doesn't feel like "finding the solution to just about any problem" anymore.
We had a Hunter Ranger, a Lore Bard, a Theif Rogue (which I played) from the UA, and a Abjuration Wizard from 2014 phb.
In that campaign, I felt I was kind of doing nothing the whole time. The Ranger basically can do exactly what I can, and even better. He expertised in Stealth and Perception for sure and can casts Pass Without Trace to help the whole team to sneak around. He also gained Thieves Tools proficiency from the Character Origins for there's nothing else good enough to prof with, and he also has Guidance to help skill checks from the start.
In combats, the Ranger also outdamged me significantly with Hunter's Mark and three attacks by using TWF and Fighting Style, and he also can casts spells like Fog Cloud to help the team getting out of danger and stuffs. The Bard was also doing great in skills, especially in social skill checks like it was before, but better in utility for becoming a prepared caster. The new Bardic Inspiration also feels great when the Bard saved my teammates from death by a reaction.
Fast Hands was the most interesting and useful feature of the subclass before, but now it turns pretty useless. I even felt like I wasn't picking a subclass since I've never met a situation that requires me to take a Search Action during a battle in that campaign. It's such a rare occasion that I even haven't come across many times in my years of playing DnD. Especially I've never met a occasion that I need to steal something in a combat.
Agreed on pretty much everythng. WotC were very conservative about the rogue. They shouldn't have been. The core problem of martials vs casters is especially strong with the rogue, now that they have to compete with rangers and bards. Reliable talent is good, but it's no spellcasting.
IMO, rogues have to either gain access to maneuvers to cripple and otherwise mess with foes, or have something built into their cunning action. Rogues need options in combat.
Thieves can read one time use scrolls easier IF we can find them and the Arcana skill is still within our reach. I suspect the Arcana skill is going to be much harder to access once the Backgrounds are "updated" and access by Rogue Thief may be cut off. In any case scrolls vs daily charged items is an out of reach cost for most groups even if they agreed to.
The daily charged items skill where you have a 1 in 6 chance to use without a charge being used is a Charlie Brown football trick since they crippled UMD to the point of making it useless by removing the "You ignore all class, race, and level requirements on the use of magic items." In items with charges that eliminated the ability to use 75 items alone from the list of magic items with charges.
Over 35 non-charged items as well can no longer be used by thieves so that 4th Attunement slot is a sick joke since we will be lucky to fill 3 slots now.
They moved Evasion to 9th level from 7th, for no better reason than to tidy up the table? Thanks... Guess I could get a level of fighter and pick up Shield Mastery to get it back quicker.
Not even going over the other nerfs, why bother?
Being playing since the early 1970's and if this goes thru as written I think I am going to quit since I mainly play thru online and I do not see any group wanting a Rogue Thief when the new Ranger does everything a Thief can do now better in addition to his Ranger abilities.
Thanks for the thorough review, SoulknifeInfiltrator. That's pretty much exactly how I have been feeling during playtest too. The rogue feels like they have no character class at all compared to the rangers and bard. It's honestly sad. This might be my biggest complaint in the whole survey when I do it.
Yep, so far rogues have 1 thing. Cunning action. Bards have spells and bardic inspiration, Rangers have spells and martial features. Cunning action doesn't even come close to spells. Everything else is full on passive, and just about staying alive or is something the other classes get anyway. All the way until level 11. (no I don't consider sneak attack a feature, it is "how they do damage" compared to martials with multi-attack and casters with some of their spells and cantrips. Honestly, it is time to give rogue extra attack and a new out of combat feature. I want to see extra attack and uncanny dodge at 5. I want to see a Feat at level 6. I want to see reliable talent at 9 along WITH evasion. New pact tactics can be the new level 11 feature and then give them slippery mind at 13 + something else. and Elusive + something at 15, and something at 17. This is what they need, defensive ability + something to do with skills or other features.
(this is a big imagine how this feels. Level 5 feels better damage, level 6 you gain more options and identity with another feat. Level 7 you get expertise 2 levels earlier so you still feel like the skills expert and then by level 9 when everyone catches up you are getting reliable talent to keep yourself as the skills expert, they have spells to augment so you NEED this.)
Honestly, all Thief abilities should just be standard for a Rogue. I've always thought so, and even more so now. And give them back use an object with cunning action, and remove magic item restrictions for use magic device. At least they would feel like a Rogue is supposed to, and do things no one else can.
IMO: Rogue is kind of designed to be easy to use. If phb ranger was unofficially an advanced class, I would say a rogue is an easy starting class.
Now I do believe they were shorted and there is some loss. However, I also do believe their might have been things to do with the search action. if all else fails now your rules clearly say pickpocketing in combat is valid. Maybe even disarm them of a focus, weapon, key or some other useful item. maybe you could get a emotional trinket and throw it away making the enemy consider that more important than fighting you(influence?). who knows what you can do? This is still a creative game after all and when the rules become too simulationist, we need reminders to think outside the box.
(My favorite pick pocket is searching for a spell scroll and then pick pocketing it and using it in the same turn at higher levels. But ya rogues are close to good. I just think you could bump a feature or 2 down a couple levels and we would be ok.
I've been playtesting with a group consisting of a Ranger, a Bard, a Rogue, and a Ranger/Rogue multiclass. In comparison to all of the other classes, the Rogue feels just awful. It's like playing a sidekick NPC stat line in a party of real characters. Everything the Rogue can do, the others can do at least as well, AND the others get spells and better combat abilities on top of it. The only thing the Rogue can do that they can't is run away from the fights they already weren't contributing to.
(The hide rules only exacerbate the problem)
Are they simple? I guess in one way. Only because they can't do anything. But designing a class that depends on the player getting super creative with their limited skills isn't really simple either. Adding 1d6 to all of your attacks for an hour with Hunter's Mark is simple.
The rogue right now has to think hard about every action in a turn just to try to get some value. And that's only in combat. Out of combat, the Ranger and Bard can be just as good at any stealth, traps, locks, or social skill.
The only unique, active abilities that a Thief Rogue gets for 10 levels is cunning action and a climb speed. Hiding is too hard at low levels to depend on. Searching and sleight of hand as a bonus action is very situational and requires DM buy in. The other classes get expertise too. So what makes a rogue a Rogue? They are good at running away.
I'm glad Rangers got a boost. But now they are just as good as Rogues at most of the things people play Rogues for. I think all of the classes need their levels adjusted. This UA version pushes too many class features to late levels. All of them suffer in flavor because of it. Thief abilities should just apply to every Rogue. If they fixed that, and made sneak attack more reliable again, it would feel like a unique class.