I am moving my comment from the general rogue feedback thread to this one on its own. While rogues do use hiding the most, I don't want to clutter that thread up with a general rule discussion. I also had more thoughts, added at the end.
I am very confused by the new hide rules for a number of reasons, but the main one is when to roll it. Maybe I've always done stealth wrong. Or maybe I'm missing something. But there are some strange implications.
In combat it's fine. You roll when you want to hide and they roll to find you again. The only questions there center around line of sight, and if you can have a hidden status against some creatures and not others. That's a different problem.
But another scenario that happens at my table at least as often as combat hiding is the stealth mission - sneaking into a location to scout it out or steal something. In these situations my rogue says he wants to sneak into a goblin camp. I tell him to roll Stealth. I record his result. As he moves through the camp, as long as he stays in shadows or cover, I compare his roll to to the goblins' passive perception (9). If the goblins have a reason to be on alert, maybe they actively roll perception to search the camp. If their boss shows up, it might have a higher perception and see the rogue. But that's it. As long as the rogue is careful, he can gather information and get out, usually based on that one roll.
But now the new rules... If I approached this stealth encounter the same way I would ask the rogue to roll to hide. If he rolls a 15 or higher, then I could proceed the same way I always did I guess.
But what if he didn't? What if he rolls a 10? Does he somehow sense that he failed? If he does know he failed, why not just try again until he succeeds? There is no penalty for taking a few more minutes to do it right, unlike in combat. If he does not know that he failed, or cannot try again, does the player have to fight the urge to metagame and then just walk into the goblin camp to immediately be caught? A 10 is still higher than the goblin passive perception, but according to the rules it failed.
This whole situation is obviously silly. So what is the other option? Well, the player could say that he wants to sneak into the goblin camp. And I could say "Okay go for it. Here is the map. Tell me where you want to go." Then I only ask him to roll a dice to hide any time he sees a goblin. That makes more sense with the rules it seems. But it sets him up for failure. Instead of making one roll, he is now potentially making dozens of them. Every time a goblin walks by, make a roll. Every time he moves from one tent to another, make a roll. Until he is higher level, he WILL fail one. A first level rogue with expertise has +7 to stealth. That's failing 35% of the time. Forget anyone else in the party actually hiding. (Not to mention all the time wasted to move one player step by step around a map rolling every 6 seconds while the rest of the players wait for him to get back.)
Maybe that was the intent. But the consequence of the change would mean the rogue just... stops trying to do stealth missions. It's way too risky. And that takes away from the fantasy big time. Which is sad.
With a flat 15 DC, we can basically throw out the monsters succeeding on an ambush ever again. Only those with abilities that allow them to blend in with their surroundings perfectly could ever pull it off now.
For example, 5 goblins plan to ambush travelers on an old road. They have +6 to stealth rolls, pretty good at that CR. That means they each have a 40% of failing to meet the DC15. On average, 2 out of 5 will immediately fail to hide.
The DM will describe the scene of a wooded trail, the horses lying in the dust with arrows in them, left to lure some curious travelers into a trap. They roll the dice and sigh. "Also, you see two goblins giggling in the bushes."
Not home, so can't expound, but in short: The Hide Action dors not replace any/all other uses of Stealth. Actions with names and rules, such as Hide, Search, Study, Disengage and the like are specifically "Actions in Combat."
Outside of combat? Use the general action resolution rules as usual.
Ah, I must have missed that part. If that's the case, it also alleviates a lot of my issues with some of those other actions as well. Fantastic, thank you!
But now the new rules... If I approached this stealth encounter the same way I would ask the rogue to roll to hide. If he rolls a 15 or higher, then I could proceed the same way I always did I guess.
But what if he didn't? What if he rolls a 10? Does he somehow sense that he failed? If he does know he failed, why not just try again until he succeeds? There is no penalty for taking a few more minutes to do it right, unlike in combat. If he does not know that he failed, or cannot try again, does the player have to fight the urge to metagame and then just walk into the goblin camp to immediately be caught? A 10 is still higher than the goblin passive perception, but according to the rules it failed.
This is just WOTC having no idea how to write good rules. Here's a replacement that's at least playable:
Remove the static DC of 15 to hide, because it makes no sense at all.
Ordinarily, you will roll 1 Stealth check as an action in order to be stealthy, and the result is used for both being Unseen and Unheard in appropriate conditions.
If you need to roll different dice for being unseen and unheard (e.g. due to Boots of Elvenkind), you should roll the maximum number of dice (typically this can't be more than 2, but it can be 3 if you have Advantage on one and Disadvantage on the other) with an order to them so you can tell them apart (in our example with the Boots, you'd roll 2 dice, using the first for your Unseen and the highest for your Unheard).
The easiest way to do this is with multiple d20s in different colors, so they can be rolled simultaneously.
You can keep taking the action, but you always keep the last result you rolled, so once you roll an 11 or higher on the die, you have no good reason to continue, ordinarily speaking. That's 8 with Disadvantage and 14 with Advantage for when you should probably stop. You always know what you rolled on your own roll.
Compare Unseen to the PP of anyone trying to see you and Unheard to the PP of anyone trying to hear you.
Remove the 1D&D version of surprise, as there's no way to let it happen without leaking to a player if they're "Hidden" or not. Instead, if a creature can't see or hear any enemies when initiative is rolled, it has disadvantage. That doesn't leak anything - all creatures know if everything looks and sounds calm or not.
I agree there is still plenty to unpack with the hidden rules presented in this UA. I don't understand why there is a need for a static DC of 15 at all. How does it help improve the flow of the game?
There is already a DC built in with passive perception. I have a Rogue in my regular game. He hides in combat all the time. He rolls the dice and tells me his result. If he met the conditions to hide, and the roll is higher than the best passive perception in the room, he 'succeeds' at hiding. In this version of the rules, he would now have the hidden condition. If he fails, the next time it is the monster's turn, one of them usually points him out and yells something like 'he's over there!.' This kind of explains how the condition would end if anyone saw you. So I'm okay with that part of the rule most of the time.
If he beat their passive, the monsters still know that there was someone there, but they lost track of him in the heat of battle. So one might spend their turn actively searching for him. They would then roll their perception against his Stealth score. Or they would just run to where they last saw him and probably now catch him behind some barrels.
Most of the time they are just more worried about the other characters actively fighting them. So they ignore him. He gets his sneak attack. Everyone is happy (Except the monster). After seeing the damage, they might change tactics next time he hides, depending on their intelligence.
Even a VTT knows the monster passive perception. It can tell the DM if the rogue succeeded or not. A static DC 15 just isn't necessary. If they want it to be harder, make passive perception 15 + perception, or any other number they want.
a static DC 15 means it's a medium difficulty task. so, an easy-ish task but with "chance of meaningful failure," per the UA. but, the UA doesn't go on to describe that failure. we can intuit that they've left it open in the spirit of allowing failure to become "narratively interesting."
if you're initiating a Stealth check outside of combat then you've likely begun with the Hide Action's requirements of being Heavily Obscured, mostly in Cover, and out of line of sight. obviously the rogue didn't capriciously decide to attach cymbals to their knees. so, initial failure against that DC 15 represents a setback rather than catastrophic failure. rather than immediate capture it could be a laborer lifting away the box that obscured you, a waiter dropping plates near your hiding spot, or a young page appearing behind you offering for a coin to take a love note to whomever you're peeking at. something the player can react to and potentially correct.
in combat, you're more likely to be up against hostile line of sight, uncharitable "i found him!" calls, and active perception checks. surely that's not a single medium difficulty task you can handwave like it's diplomatic immunity.
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I am moving my comment from the general rogue feedback thread to this one on its own. While rogues do use hiding the most, I don't want to clutter that thread up with a general rule discussion. I also had more thoughts, added at the end.
I am very confused by the new hide rules for a number of reasons, but the main one is when to roll it. Maybe I've always done stealth wrong. Or maybe I'm missing something. But there are some strange implications.
In combat it's fine. You roll when you want to hide and they roll to find you again. The only questions there center around line of sight, and if you can have a hidden status against some creatures and not others. That's a different problem.
But another scenario that happens at my table at least as often as combat hiding is the stealth mission - sneaking into a location to scout it out or steal something. In these situations my rogue says he wants to sneak into a goblin camp. I tell him to roll Stealth. I record his result. As he moves through the camp, as long as he stays in shadows or cover, I compare his roll to to the goblins' passive perception (9). If the goblins have a reason to be on alert, maybe they actively roll perception to search the camp. If their boss shows up, it might have a higher perception and see the rogue. But that's it. As long as the rogue is careful, he can gather information and get out, usually based on that one roll.
But now the new rules... If I approached this stealth encounter the same way I would ask the rogue to roll to hide. If he rolls a 15 or higher, then I could proceed the same way I always did I guess.
But what if he didn't? What if he rolls a 10? Does he somehow sense that he failed? If he does know he failed, why not just try again until he succeeds? There is no penalty for taking a few more minutes to do it right, unlike in combat. If he does not know that he failed, or cannot try again, does the player have to fight the urge to metagame and then just walk into the goblin camp to immediately be caught? A 10 is still higher than the goblin passive perception, but according to the rules it failed.
This whole situation is obviously silly. So what is the other option? Well, the player could say that he wants to sneak into the goblin camp. And I could say "Okay go for it. Here is the map. Tell me where you want to go." Then I only ask him to roll a dice to hide any time he sees a goblin. That makes more sense with the rules it seems. But it sets him up for failure. Instead of making one roll, he is now potentially making dozens of them. Every time a goblin walks by, make a roll. Every time he moves from one tent to another, make a roll. Until he is higher level, he WILL fail one. A first level rogue with expertise has +7 to stealth. That's failing 35% of the time. Forget anyone else in the party actually hiding. (Not to mention all the time wasted to move one player step by step around a map rolling every 6 seconds while the rest of the players wait for him to get back.)
Maybe that was the intent. But the consequence of the change would mean the rogue just... stops trying to do stealth missions. It's way too risky. And that takes away from the fantasy big time. Which is sad.
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Additional thoughts I forgot to add:
With a flat 15 DC, we can basically throw out the monsters succeeding on an ambush ever again. Only those with abilities that allow them to blend in with their surroundings perfectly could ever pull it off now.
For example, 5 goblins plan to ambush travelers on an old road. They have +6 to stealth rolls, pretty good at that CR. That means they each have a 40% of failing to meet the DC15. On average, 2 out of 5 will immediately fail to hide.
The DM will describe the scene of a wooded trail, the horses lying in the dust with arrows in them, left to lure some curious travelers into a trap. They roll the dice and sigh. "Also, you see two goblins giggling in the bushes."
Ambush is blown.
Not home, so can't expound, but in short: The Hide Action dors not replace any/all other uses of Stealth. Actions with names and rules, such as Hide, Search, Study, Disengage and the like are specifically "Actions in Combat."
Outside of combat? Use the general action resolution rules as usual.
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Ah, I must have missed that part. If that's the case, it also alleviates a lot of my issues with some of those other actions as well. Fantastic, thank you!
This is just WOTC having no idea how to write good rules. Here's a replacement that's at least playable:
I agree there is still plenty to unpack with the hidden rules presented in this UA. I don't understand why there is a need for a static DC of 15 at all. How does it help improve the flow of the game?
There is already a DC built in with passive perception. I have a Rogue in my regular game. He hides in combat all the time. He rolls the dice and tells me his result. If he met the conditions to hide, and the roll is higher than the best passive perception in the room, he 'succeeds' at hiding. In this version of the rules, he would now have the hidden condition. If he fails, the next time it is the monster's turn, one of them usually points him out and yells something like 'he's over there!.' This kind of explains how the condition would end if anyone saw you. So I'm okay with that part of the rule most of the time.
If he beat their passive, the monsters still know that there was someone there, but they lost track of him in the heat of battle. So one might spend their turn actively searching for him. They would then roll their perception against his Stealth score. Or they would just run to where they last saw him and probably now catch him behind some barrels.
Most of the time they are just more worried about the other characters actively fighting them. So they ignore him. He gets his sneak attack. Everyone is happy (Except the monster). After seeing the damage, they might change tactics next time he hides, depending on their intelligence.
Even a VTT knows the monster passive perception. It can tell the DM if the rogue succeeded or not. A static DC 15 just isn't necessary. If they want it to be harder, make passive perception 15 + perception, or any other number they want.
a static DC 15 means it's a medium difficulty task. so, an easy-ish task but with "chance of meaningful failure," per the UA. but, the UA doesn't go on to describe that failure. we can intuit that they've left it open in the spirit of allowing failure to become "narratively interesting."
if you're initiating a Stealth check outside of combat then you've likely begun with the Hide Action's requirements of being Heavily Obscured, mostly in Cover, and out of line of sight. obviously the rogue didn't capriciously decide to attach cymbals to their knees. so, initial failure against that DC 15 represents a setback rather than catastrophic failure. rather than immediate capture it could be a laborer lifting away the box that obscured you, a waiter dropping plates near your hiding spot, or a young page appearing behind you offering for a coin to take a love note to whomever you're peeking at. something the player can react to and potentially correct.
in combat, you're more likely to be up against hostile line of sight, uncharitable "i found him!" calls, and active perception checks. surely that's not a single medium difficulty task you can handwave like it's diplomatic immunity.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!