After Diving into the new Find Steed to see how it functions I noticed a couple of problems.
As it is written none of its actions or bonus actions matter in combat unless the person who summoned it is incapacitated. The otherworldly steed only acts as a controlled mount unless the spellcaster is incapacitated at which point it acts independently after their turn. Looking at the bonus actions this might not be a problem, but a design choice. If a design choice WotC should clean up the wording so everyone understands this. Or they can make it so that you are allowed to replace your action or bonus to use the mounts action or bonus action instead. According to the 5e PHB the only actions a controlled mount can take are Dash, Disengage, or Dodge.
The casting time is too short and material cost is non existent to summon a creature that is superior to find familiar. Find familiar cost 10, so this should have a 1 hour cast time and at least 10 gold cost, possibly 20.
There is also the problem that the main class for Find Steed, Paladin, gets a weaker form of Find Steed than Cleric and Bard get. Find Steed should likely just be converted from a divine spell to a class feature for Paladin.
The damn thing is just too powerful for its cost, it's like Find Familiar on steroids. And it really gives me MMORPG vibes with obtaining a summoned mount and then upgrading to a flying mount. Not the kind of experience I want to return to, I've had enough of World of Warcraft back in 2012.
Yeah if a cleric casts Find Steed it is as beefy as the fighter, it also get's flight before druid WS does... so just more negation of WS there as well. Cleric is now so *$%! powerful why would anyone play any of the other 'priests'?
In the past, the Paladin's mount was a class feature rather than a spell. I think retiring Find Steed as a spell, and making the Steed strictly a class feature would solve a lot of problems. Steed improvements could be tied directly to Paladin level. The Paladin already has a Steed-related class feature at level 5, but, as currently written, this class feature doesn't really do very much in my opinion. This could be a opportunity to make that class feature more meaningful.
Or making it a subclass - if it works for the Ranger, why not for the Paladin?
I was thinking of something on those lines earlier today (after my previous post), there is a subclass for fighter, why not paladin? Or make it a feature like wildshape is for druid but have a subclass that is specialized in it like circle of the moon. Where normal Paladin can ride their steed around the map but the subclass gets the ability to summon it on fly in combat, like a bonus action to store it as a tattoo or symbol on armour and bonus action to restore and auto mount.
I'd like to see the mounted combat rules look something like this:
Mounting and dismounting a steed requires an Action. You can fall off your mount and land Prone as a free action. While mounted, you and the mount share the same space and act on your initiative. Any attack that can target your mount can also target you. You use the mount’s movement andSpeeds as if they were your own. You also may also take advantage of any movement related abilities your mount may have, such as Flyby or Spider Climb. Any Opportunity Attacks against you are determined by the mount’s movement. If your mount provokes an Opportunity Attack, the attacker can target either you or your mount. As a free action, you can direct your mount to use its reaction to take the Dash, Disengage, or Dodge Actions. If your mount is trained for combat, you can use your Action to direct your mount to take the Attack Action. If you have the Extra Attack class feature, this take the place of one of Attack. Your mount does not have a turn of its own while under your control.
If an effect moves your mount against its will or Frightens your mount while you’re on it, you must succeed on a DC 10 Dexterity saving throw or fall off the mount, landing Prone in a space within 5 feet of it. If you are knocked Prone, moved against your will, or otherwise Incapacitated while mounted, you must make the same saving throw. If your mount is Frightened at the start of your turn, you must use an Action to make a Wisdom(Animal Handling) check against the DC of the fear effect (or 10 if no DC is specified). If you succeed, you remove the Frightened condition from your mount. If the check fails, you cannot control your mount this turn and you must make a Dexterity Saving Throw to remain mounted.
If your mount is knocked Prone, you must succeed on a DC 10 Dexterity Saving Throw to dismount it as it falls and land on your feet. Otherwise, you are dismounted and fall Prone in a space within 5 feet it.
There is also the problem that the main class for Find Steed, Paladin, gets a weaker form of Find Steed than Cleric and Bard get. Find Steed should likely just be converted from a divine spell to a class feature for Paladin.
I think we discussed this on another thread. That Paladin feature needs a fix, but to me that’s separate from the spell. I’m looking at the spell itself and seeing its flawed. That’s mainly because it’s actually two 5e spells combined into one then adapted to work like many of the Tasha’s summon spells. What came from that is something grossly overpowered with hitpoints and earlier consistent flight than even a Druid.
The damn thing is just too powerful for its cost, it's like Find Familiar on steroids. And it really gives me MMORPG vibes with obtaining a summoned mount and then upgrading to a flying mount. Not the kind of experience I want to return to, I've had enough of World of Warcraft back in 2012.
I agree it should definitely have a gold cost considering it’s permanent (until killed). Now that I realized it doesn’t get a turn in combat unless you are incapacitated I won’t consider it find familiar on steroids, but it is still better than find familiar overall. Another thing I’m noticing is both of them need to take rest now, so no overnight guard duty. You can no longer bamf your familiar away for most of the day until you need it. That means you have to have it with you so everyone can see it, or you have to spend an hour summoning it when the situation you need it arises. The 10 min summoning time of Find steed is just unfair considering this change to Find familiar. The familiar does still have the advantage in scouting and in combat now that it has its own turn while the steed can only act as a mount. The steed’s ability to increase your mobility might be more important in combat than a familiar’s turn. Especially flight, but that will vary player to player. I’m not sure how to fix the flight issue. You can’t really increase the spell slot needed for a flying steed without hurting the Paladin. The easiest fix is to not make the Steed a permanent creature. If it had a time limit like 8-16 hours at least it becomes a spell choice for the day and not something you cast a week ago and just have a flying mount with you at all times. Or remove flight from the spell all together and make flight a part of the Paladin feature that comes online at 13th level, but I don’t want this to become a discussion about that feature since I think they are two separate issues. Spells are spells and should be compared to spells. This spell compare to other spells is definitely broken. And yeah, I love the WoW reference.
Why is everyone saying steed is so much better than familiar? Please help me understand, I feel like I’m missing something. When I look at the differences, I see that one is meant to charge into a fight bearing a rider and take a hit or two, while the other is a little animal that can scout ahead and can also deliver touch attacks. To me it just seems like they’re built for different purposes. The steed is more durable, and has some cool powers, but it can’t deliver a touch attack, you can’t see through its eyes, and good luck using it indoors (which reminds me, they should have a medium option for small characters).
Now, I’m all for cleaning up mounted combat rules, in particular, who controls an uncontrolled mount? I mean at the table, someone needs to decide where it will go. If it’s the player, it seems like the mount will probably end up doing whatever the character wanted it to anyway. So, is it the DM? I guess in this version, where the character is unconscious, it’s pretty clear what the mount would do, and it’s ok if the player does it. But generally, they need to make to clearer for other mounts.
First, let me acknowledge that Find Familiar and Find Steed are different spells designed for different classes, and comparing them too closely to each other may or may not make much sense. Also, many of the advantages Find Steed has over Find Familiar originate in the 5E versions of the spells, and are merely brought forward into the One D&D versions.
Here are the main differences as I see them:
Find Familiar takes an hour to cast, while Find Steed takes only 10 minutes. However, Find Familiar can be cast as a ritual while Find Steed cannot.
Find Familiar has a 10 GP cost for each casting of the spell, while Find Steed has no material component at all.
Find Familiar has a range of 10 feet, while Find Steed has a range of 30 feet. However it might be easier to find an empty space in which to conjure your familiar than it is to find a space for a large steed.
Some new issues as I see them:
Both the One D&D Familiar and the Steed show improvements to AC and HP compared to their 5E versions, but the Familiar is still very fragile and is still unlikely to survive even one hit, so the Steed benefits from these improvements more.
The 5E Familiar does not have an attack of its own, but the One D&D Familiar has Otherworldly Scratch. Still, this new attack won't do much damage (1 + spell level) , and may only make the familiar more of a target.
Meanwhile, the Steed has a more significant attack (1d8 + spell level damage), plus a daily spell-like bonus action. Using the steed in combat seems more likely, so these abilities will likely be more useful.
In 5e, these differences aren't as big of a problem because the Familiar becomes available to the Wizard at level 1, and the Steed becomes available to the Paladin at level 5. But with the changes to the spell list system, the Steed is now also available to the Cleric at level 3. (Other full casters may take a feat to gain access to this spell at level 4.) This makes the Familiar and the Steed more comparable. Upcasting the spell only makes thing worse. Upcast Find Steed and you get a flying mount. Upcast Find Familiar and you get a slightly tougher but still very fragile raven or whatever.
I think we discussed this on another thread. That Paladin feature needs a fix, but to me that’s separate from the spell. I’m looking at the spell itself and seeing its flawed.
The reason it's flawed is because it's a spell. If it were level 3 (level 7 for flying) the spell would be fine for bards and clerics -- getting a steed at level 5 and a flying steed at level 13 isn't a serious problem.
The easy fix is:
Find Steed: 3th level conjuration spell. Requires a 7th level spell slot for flight.
Faithful Steed: You may spend a Channel Divinity to cast Faithful Steed without spending a spell slot, at a level equal to half your paladin level (rounded up).
I think we discussed this on another thread. That Paladin feature needs a fix, but to me that’s separate from the spell. I’m looking at the spell itself and seeing its flawed.
The reason it's flawed is because it's a spell. If it were level 3 (level 7 for flying) the spell would be fine for bards and clerics -- getting a steed at level 5 and a flying steed at level 13 isn't a serious problem.
The easy fix is:
Find Steed: 3th level conjuration spell. Requires a 7th level spell slot for flight.
Faithful Steed: You may spend a Channel Divinity to cast Faithful Steed without spending a spell slot, at a level equal to half your paladin level (rounded up).
While I like the fix it also introduces a weird thing. At level 19 you would technically be casting it at 10th level. What is a 10th level spell slot. Does it add a bonus to hp and the actions. Also it doesn’t address the material cost issue.
Why is everyone saying steed is so much better than familiar? Please help me understand, I feel like I’m missing something. When I look at the differences, I see that one is meant to charge into a fight bearing a rider and take a hit or two, while the other is a little animal that can scout ahead and can also deliver touch attacks. To me it just seems like they’re built for different purposes. The steed is more durable, and has some cool powers, but it can’t deliver a touch attack, you can’t see through its eyes, and good luck using it indoors (which reminds me, they should have a medium option for small characters).
Now, I’m all for cleaning up mounted combat rules, in particular, who controls an uncontrolled mount? I mean at the table, someone needs to decide where it will go. If it’s the player, it seems like the mount will probably end up doing whatever the character wanted it to anyway. So, is it the DM? I guess in this version, where the character is unconscious, it’s pretty clear what the mount would do, and it’s ok if the player does it. But generally, they need to make to clearer for other mounts.
Everything Baron said plus 1 mile telepathy so even though you cant see through the mounts eyes it can still scout a mile out telling you what it sees. 6 intelligence can tell you a lot on a scout, and since it’s alone it could fight a combat and defend itself.
Everything Baron said plus 1 mile telepathy so even though you cant see through the mounts eyes it can still scout a mile out telling you what it sees. 6 intelligence can tell you a lot on a scout, and since it’s alone it could fight a combat and defend itself.
Also don't forget the bit where you send it in front of the party to trigger all the traps in a dungeon... since it's large, it'll trigger most pressure/weight based traps and then the caster summons it again at the cost of a spell slot... and that is how a Paladin shifts towards evil alignment.
If an Otherworldly Steed healed a rider with its Healing Touch ability, would the Steed also be healed as a result of its Life Bond feature? In other words, does being healed by a creature created by a 2nd level conjuration spell count as being healed by a first level or higher spell? If you were healed by the Healing Touch a Celestial Spirit conjured by the 5th level Summon Celestial Spell, would that count as being healed by a 1st level or higher spell? This is the same ability on another celestial creature summoned by a conjuration spell. If getting healed by a Celestial Spirit counts a being healed by a spell, then getting healed by the Otherworldly Steed should also count.
Getting healed by Cure Wounds, Healing Word, or Heal would certainly count as being healed by a spell. These are probably the spells the designers had in mind, but what about Healing Spirit? This is a 2nd level conjuration spell, just like Find Steed. This seems like a more direct method of healing, and it should count as being healed by a 1st level or higher spell. So if Healing Spirit counts as getting healed by a spell, why not Find Steed?
Lay on Hands, Channel Divinity, and healing potions all would not work because they not spells. The Steed itself is not a spell, but it was created by one.
I don't think the intention was that the Steed would heal itself whenever it healed its rider, but I think there is a good argument that by RAW it should.
If an Otherworldly Steed healed a rider with its Healing Touch ability, would the Steed also be healed as a result of its Life Bond feature?
In general abilities used by a summoned creature do not count as spells cast by the summoner (the case for non-creature effects such as healing spirit is less clear). I suspect they intend the change in the way healing works for the life cleric to also apply to other effects triggered by being healed by a spell, but it's not what they said.
If an Otherworldly Steed healed a rider with its Healing Touch ability, would the Steed also be healed as a result of its Life Bond feature? In other words, does being healed by a creature created by a 2nd level conjuration spell count as being healed by a first level or higher spell? If you were healed by the Healing Touch a Celestial Spirit conjured by the 5th level Summon Celestial Spell, would that count as being healed by a 1st level or higher spell? This is the same ability on another celestial creature summoned by a conjuration spell. If getting healed by a Celestial Spirit counts a being healed by a spell, then getting healed by the Otherworldly Steed should also count.
Getting healed by Cure Wounds, Healing Word, or Heal would certainly count as being healed by a spell. These are probably the spells the designers had in mind, but what about Healing Spirit? This is a 2nd level conjuration spell, just like Find Steed. This seems like a more direct method of healing, and it should count as being healed by a 1st level or higher spell. So if Healing Spirit counts as getting healed by a spell, why not Find Steed?
Lay on Hands, Channel Divinity, and healing potions all would not work because they not spells. The Steed itself is not a spell, but it was created by one.
I don't think the intention was that the Steed would heal itself whenever it healed its rider, but I think there is a good argument that by RAW it should.
No, since Find Steed has an Instantaneous duration, the steed is no longer a spell it is just a steed - it cannot be dispelled by Dispel Magic and it's healing would not count as being healed by a spell.
After Diving into the new Find Steed to see how it functions I noticed a couple of problems.
There is also the problem that the main class for Find Steed, Paladin, gets a weaker form of Find Steed than Cleric and Bard get. Find Steed should likely just be converted from a divine spell to a class feature for Paladin.
The damn thing is just too powerful for its cost, it's like Find Familiar on steroids. And it really gives me MMORPG vibes with obtaining a summoned mount and then upgrading to a flying mount. Not the kind of experience I want to return to, I've had enough of World of Warcraft back in 2012.
Yeah if a cleric casts Find Steed it is as beefy as the fighter, it also get's flight before druid WS does... so just more negation of WS there as well. Cleric is now so *$%! powerful why would anyone play any of the other 'priests'?
In the past, the Paladin's mount was a class feature rather than a spell. I think retiring Find Steed as a spell, and making the Steed strictly a class feature would solve a lot of problems. Steed improvements could be tied directly to Paladin level. The Paladin already has a Steed-related class feature at level 5, but, as currently written, this class feature doesn't really do very much in my opinion. This could be a opportunity to make that class feature more meaningful.
Or making it a subclass - if it works for the Ranger, why not for the Paladin?
Sure. Why not? IIRC, there were past version of the Paladin that offered a choice between a special steed or a Holy Weapon. That would be cool too.
I was thinking of something on those lines earlier today (after my previous post), there is a subclass for fighter, why not paladin? Or make it a feature like wildshape is for druid but have a subclass that is specialized in it like circle of the moon. Where normal Paladin can ride their steed around the map but the subclass gets the ability to summon it on fly in combat, like a bonus action to store it as a tattoo or symbol on armour and bonus action to restore and auto mount.
I'd like to see the mounted combat rules look something like this:
Mounting and dismounting a steed requires an Action. You can fall off your mount and land Prone as a free action. While mounted, you and the mount share the same space and act on your initiative. Any attack that can target your mount can also target you. You use the mount’s movement and Speeds as if they were your own. You also may also take advantage of any movement related abilities your mount may have, such as Flyby or Spider Climb. Any Opportunity Attacks against you are determined by the mount’s movement. If your mount provokes an Opportunity Attack, the attacker can target either you or your mount. As a free action, you can direct your mount to use its reaction to take the Dash, Disengage, or Dodge Actions. If your mount is trained for combat, you can use your Action to direct your mount to take the Attack Action. If you have the Extra Attack class feature, this take the place of one of Attack. Your mount does not have a turn of its own while under your control.
If an effect moves your mount against its will or Frightens your mount while you’re on it, you must succeed on a DC 10 Dexterity saving throw or fall off the mount, landing Prone in a space within 5 feet of it. If you are knocked Prone, moved against your will, or otherwise Incapacitated while mounted, you must make the same saving throw. If your mount is Frightened at the start of your turn, you must use an Action to make a Wisdom(Animal Handling) check against the DC of the fear effect (or 10 if no DC is specified). If you succeed, you remove the Frightened condition from your mount. If the check fails, you cannot control your mount this turn and you must make a Dexterity Saving Throw to remain mounted.
If your mount is knocked Prone, you must succeed on a DC 10 Dexterity Saving Throw to dismount it as it falls and land on your feet. Otherwise, you are dismounted and fall Prone in a space within 5 feet it.
I think we discussed this on another thread. That Paladin feature needs a fix, but to me that’s separate from the spell. I’m looking at the spell itself and seeing its flawed. That’s mainly because it’s actually two 5e spells combined into one then adapted to work like many of the Tasha’s summon spells. What came from that is something grossly overpowered with hitpoints and earlier consistent flight than even a Druid.
I agree it should definitely have a gold cost considering it’s permanent (until killed). Now that I realized it doesn’t get a turn in combat unless you are incapacitated I won’t consider it find familiar on steroids, but it is still better than find familiar overall. Another thing I’m noticing is both of them need to take rest now, so no overnight guard duty. You can no longer bamf your familiar away for most of the day until you need it. That means you have to have it with you so everyone can see it, or you have to spend an hour summoning it when the situation you need it arises. The 10 min summoning time of Find steed is just unfair considering this change to Find familiar. The familiar does still have the advantage in scouting and in combat now that it has its own turn while the steed can only act as a mount. The steed’s ability to increase your mobility might be more important in combat than a familiar’s turn. Especially flight, but that will vary player to player. I’m not sure how to fix the flight issue. You can’t really increase the spell slot needed for a flying steed without hurting the Paladin. The easiest fix is to not make the Steed a permanent creature. If it had a time limit like 8-16 hours at least it becomes a spell choice for the day and not something you cast a week ago and just have a flying mount with you at all times. Or remove flight from the spell all together and make flight a part of the Paladin feature that comes online at 13th level, but I don’t want this to become a discussion about that feature since I think they are two separate issues. Spells are spells and should be compared to spells. This spell compare to other spells is definitely broken. And yeah, I love the WoW reference.
Why is everyone saying steed is so much better than familiar? Please help me understand, I feel like I’m missing something. When I look at the differences, I see that one is meant to charge into a fight bearing a rider and take a hit or two, while the other is a little animal that can scout ahead and can also deliver touch attacks. To me it just seems like they’re built for different purposes. The steed is more durable, and has some cool powers, but it can’t deliver a touch attack, you can’t see through its eyes, and good luck using it indoors (which reminds me, they should have a medium option for small characters).
Now, I’m all for cleaning up mounted combat rules, in particular, who controls an uncontrolled mount? I mean at the table, someone needs to decide where it will go. If it’s the player, it seems like the mount will probably end up doing whatever the character wanted it to anyway. So, is it the DM? I guess in this version, where the character is unconscious, it’s pretty clear what the mount would do, and it’s ok if the player does it. But generally, they need to make to clearer for other mounts.
First, let me acknowledge that Find Familiar and Find Steed are different spells designed for different classes, and comparing them too closely to each other may or may not make much sense. Also, many of the advantages Find Steed has over Find Familiar originate in the 5E versions of the spells, and are merely brought forward into the One D&D versions.
Here are the main differences as I see them:
Find Familiar takes an hour to cast, while Find Steed takes only 10 minutes. However, Find Familiar can be cast as a ritual while Find Steed cannot.
Find Familiar has a 10 GP cost for each casting of the spell, while Find Steed has no material component at all.
Find Familiar has a range of 10 feet, while Find Steed has a range of 30 feet. However it might be easier to find an empty space in which to conjure your familiar than it is to find a space for a large steed.
Some new issues as I see them:
Both the One D&D Familiar and the Steed show improvements to AC and HP compared to their 5E versions, but the Familiar is still very fragile and is still unlikely to survive even one hit, so the Steed benefits from these improvements more.
The 5E Familiar does not have an attack of its own, but the One D&D Familiar has Otherworldly Scratch. Still, this new attack won't do much damage (1 + spell level) , and may only make the familiar more of a target.
Meanwhile, the Steed has a more significant attack (1d8 + spell level damage), plus a daily spell-like bonus action. Using the steed in combat seems more likely, so these abilities will likely be more useful.
In 5e, these differences aren't as big of a problem because the Familiar becomes available to the Wizard at level 1, and the Steed becomes available to the Paladin at level 5. But with the changes to the spell list system, the Steed is now also available to the Cleric at level 3. (Other full casters may take a feat to gain access to this spell at level 4.) This makes the Familiar and the Steed more comparable. Upcasting the spell only makes thing worse. Upcast Find Steed and you get a flying mount. Upcast Find Familiar and you get a slightly tougher but still very fragile raven or whatever.
The reason it's flawed is because it's a spell. If it were level 3 (level 7 for flying) the spell would be fine for bards and clerics -- getting a steed at level 5 and a flying steed at level 13 isn't a serious problem.
The easy fix is:
Find Steed: 3th level conjuration spell. Requires a 7th level spell slot for flight.
Faithful Steed: You may spend a Channel Divinity to cast Faithful Steed without spending a spell slot, at a level equal to half your paladin level (rounded up).
While I like the fix it also introduces a weird thing. At level 19 you would technically be casting it at 10th level. What is a 10th level spell slot. Does it add a bonus to hp and the actions.
Also it doesn’t address the material cost issue.
Everything Baron said plus 1 mile telepathy so even though you cant see through the mounts eyes it can still scout a mile out telling you what it sees. 6 intelligence can tell you a lot on a scout, and since it’s alone it could fight a combat and defend itself.
Also don't forget the bit where you send it in front of the party to trigger all the traps in a dungeon... since it's large, it'll trigger most pressure/weight based traps and then the caster summons it again at the cost of a spell slot... and that is how a Paladin shifts towards evil alignment.
If an Otherworldly Steed healed a rider with its Healing Touch ability, would the Steed also be healed as a result of its Life Bond feature? In other words, does being healed by a creature created by a 2nd level conjuration spell count as being healed by a first level or higher spell? If you were healed by the Healing Touch a Celestial Spirit conjured by the 5th level Summon Celestial Spell, would that count as being healed by a 1st level or higher spell? This is the same ability on another celestial creature summoned by a conjuration spell. If getting healed by a Celestial Spirit counts a being healed by a spell, then getting healed by the Otherworldly Steed should also count.
Getting healed by Cure Wounds, Healing Word, or Heal would certainly count as being healed by a spell. These are probably the spells the designers had in mind, but what about Healing Spirit? This is a 2nd level conjuration spell, just like Find Steed. This seems like a more direct method of healing, and it should count as being healed by a 1st level or higher spell. So if Healing Spirit counts as getting healed by a spell, why not Find Steed?
Lay on Hands, Channel Divinity, and healing potions all would not work because they not spells. The Steed itself is not a spell, but it was created by one.
I don't think the intention was that the Steed would heal itself whenever it healed its rider, but I think there is a good argument that by RAW it should.
In general abilities used by a summoned creature do not count as spells cast by the summoner (the case for non-creature effects such as healing spirit is less clear). I suspect they intend the change in the way healing works for the life cleric to also apply to other effects triggered by being healed by a spell, but it's not what they said.
No, since Find Steed has an Instantaneous duration, the steed is no longer a spell it is just a steed - it cannot be dispelled by Dispel Magic and it's healing would not count as being healed by a spell.
Smite and Steed seem more to be cleric than paladin
Paladin Steed Level 5 Flying Steed Level 13
Cleric Steed Level 3 Flying Steed Level 7
And clerics have more spell levels and slots to upcast smites.
SMITE SPELL
CLERIC
Paladin
Searing
1
1
Thunder
1
1
Wrathful
1
1
Glimmer
3
5
Blinding
5
9
Staggering
7
13
Banishing
9
17