Thoughts on the planned concept from the recent UA about the number of spells prepared being tied to the number and level you have for spell slots.
- My thought is I don't like it. Anyone have a counter thought about it?
It's certainly the thing I like least about the class changes. 4 level 1 slots, 4 level 1 spells prepared. I don't need that many and would rather have more than 3 3rds and 5ths at the ready. To me that takes away a lot of the utility (and Fun) of a cleric since many of their spells are just in case. And why bother to even have other high level spells? Two level 5 slots - Greater Restore and Mass Cure Wounds. Level 6 single slot will be Heal. level 9 will be Mass Heal. Pick what you want for 7 and 8... you'll need the slot for casting another Heal.
I get the idea... prepared spells are confusing for some players. I know in my player group the Cleric doesn't bother preparing new spells daily... they just have their spell list and treat it as spells known, and also just pick spells to match their spell slots. They miss out on some of the versatility of playing as a cleric, but overall it hasn't been a problem.
Still... yeah, I think it's too restricting. I think trying to make spell preparation more approachable and easier to understand for novice players is probably a good thing, but I feel like this sacrificed too much.
I haven't actually play tested it yet, but I see 2 reasons to be in favor of the new preparation rules:
A little easier to understand for new players.
Casters kind of needed a nerf and this is about right.
I imagine wizards and warlocks will have different preparation rules from the other casters to maintain their flavor.
I might propose 1 change that will probably satisfy everyone: instead of being 1 spell of the same level for each slot, what if it was the same level or lower? Most of the most useful utility and staple spells are low level.
Honestly I'm not a fan of nerfing spellcasters because allot dms I played with have tried to make playing wizard less fun because they hold some stupid vendetta Aginst the class for whatever reason. Telling a player they can play wizard but than making them so weak & useless that they can't do stuff is a jerk move .
To be honest this is how I generally prepare spells anyway - especially when I make a character at a higher level and haven’t yet played them. I suspect there will be a variant rule that allows for more flexible preparation, or that some classes will have a class feature that allows it. But if the changes coming will also push things to have more encounters per adventuring day then it really makes sense to ensure every spell caster has low level spells they’ll actually use when they run out of higher level spell slots, rather than always being able to count on having level 6+ slots in every encounter.
I hate it. I don't really think it's that much of a nerf, but what it does do is remove a benefit of increasing your spellcasting ability, which makes ability scores more boring.
I haven't actually play tested it yet, but I see 2 reasons to be in favor of the new preparation rules:
A little easier to understand for new players.
Casters kind of needed a nerf and this is about right.
I imagine wizards and warlocks will have different preparation rules from the other casters to maintain their flavor.
I might propose 1 change that will probably satisfy everyone: instead of being 1 spell of the same level for each slot, what if it was the same level or lower? Most of the most useful utility and staple spells are low level.
A possible 3rd reason - to get people to try actually using some different spells.
Most people load up on all the best spells even if they don't use half of them in a day. Those are often spells clustered on certain levels. The change will get people to look at spells they might not normally.
That being said, it might not be the best way to do that. I don't personally have any feelings on it until I test it at many levels. But I would like to see more variety of spells being used. A lot of second level spells could maybe stand some improvement, and some third level spells should probably be nerfed. Just to get a more even progression.
I guess I don’t quite understand the context of this variant you are suggesting - you may have 1 slot, but are you saying you have 4 spells you might cast from that slot?
this is different from the proposed change which is if you had 1 slot, you’d only have 1 spell chosen to be available to cast.
(although since the levels start with 2 slots thus 2 spells prepared your variant is dialed down )
You wouldn’t have 4 level 1 spells available until you reached a level with 4 level 1 slots.
(None of what I’m concerned about matters if you aren’t playing the typical cleric role of healer/restorer of course. )
I don’t feel it will make one use a wider range of spells, it just means you’d put less useful spells in and still not use them.
life cleric, getting all the basic cleric spells as domain, would be the most versatile, as they would have open preparable slots for the wider range of spells.
map out your spell level progression - I think most will find the interesting spells of 3rd and higher get left behind.
If the cleric UA is the initial preview of how magic users won't have to calculate how many spells they can have prepared at any level, given the current mod+level method [ ASI's forcing a recalculation], and forced to lookup the class table for exactly how many spells per slot level can be prepared, then players will be forced to really think during gameplay about what they might need to have prepared for upcoming events.
Plus, for those just starting, reducing the think time of prep selection is reduced. You know what you need, because you are shown what you can work with.
Prepping higher level spells first then working backwards to fill in complimentary and buffing spells is one way to keep the OP feel of the upper-level spell uses but allow some measure of balance should the player ignore what magics they meddle with.
I haven't actually play tested it yet, but I see 2 reasons to be in favor of the new preparation rules:
A little easier to understand for new players.
Casters kind of needed a nerf and this is about right.
It's not a terribly large nerf and generally makes life more complicated. Total prepared spells by level (assuming a 16 stat at level 1):
The nerf isn't in number of spell, its in less versatility. Like for example, you can't prepare wish and a second level 9 spell. Same goes for tons of level 5 through 8 options. Level 3 is full of staples, but you can only have 3. Since every class can ritual cast, that is more factors to consider.
To me there are only 4 or 5 preparable slots that it makes sense to move around; A couple from 1, maybe a 2, and one or two from 4. but they make all the difference in the flexibility of the class, letting you have another 3, 5 or 6 ready to use.
(Spells marked Ritual, for clerics, still take up a prepared slot, so they aren’t just sitting there always available, unlike Wizards who can read them from a book)
Lets just say a level 17 Cleric – who should be a great support and have some fun stuff to do by this level as they now have a 9 level spell!
4,3,3,3,2,1,1,1,1
here's my list if we had to use the proposed changes
(Wouldn’t it be great if you could use those two other “prepareds” for a higher level spell?
And, if you have a feat or multiclass or Strixhaven Intitate background, you will have the base spells always prepared at 1 level and still need to fill these prepared slots with less useful ones)
(There are others that are fun / useful, but your slots are full.)
Level 3 Spells (3)– revivify, mass healing word, spirit guardians
(Would love to also have dispel magic or remove curse available but too bad so sad. Maybe waterwalk or beacon of hope or many others)
Level 4 Spells (3)– Banishment. Pick 2 others.
(I find level 4 cleric spells to be fairly mundane, your domain probably supplies better ones.)
Level 5 Spells(2) – Greater Restoration, Mass Cure Wounds
(there are some other good spells at this level, but you don’t get to have them ready, because you need these two)
Level 6 Spell (1) – Heal.
There’s no point in there even being any other level 6 spells if you can only prepare one. Your party at this level needs you to have Heal. Except maybe for the clerics’ day off.
Level 7 Spell (1) – I dunno. Flame Strike so you get to have one fun spell to prove you can hurt things. The others are all useful at the right time.
Level 8 Spell (1)– Antimagic Field is sure a life saver when you need it. Or Holy Aura.
Level 9 Spell (1) – Mass Heal. The other options are just for your day off.
That certainly feels constraining, but this as a nerf to casters versatility it feels about right. I won't be surprised if a class like wizard circumvents it.
Yep its a horrible rule and restriction for the sake of making it easier for new players even though the current process really isn't that difficult. I mean if they want to make it a bit easier you can change the wording to "Number of spells known equal to total number of spell slots" So that way you still can only learn the same number as the new One D&D has changed to, but you can decide how to spread that number out.
If they go forward with this I could see my DM homebrewing and changing this since its so restrictive to mid and high tier play.
I haven't actually play tested it yet, but I see 2 reasons to be in favor of the new preparation rules:
A little easier to understand for new players.
Casters kind of needed a nerf and this is about right.
I imagine wizards and warlocks will have different preparation rules from the other casters to maintain their flavor.
I might propose 1 change that will probably satisfy everyone: instead of being 1 spell of the same level for each slot, what if it was the same level or lower? Most of the most useful utility and staple spells are low level.
I dunno I disagree. I mean the first part makes sense, though again i'd prefer them say "spells know equal total spell slots" so you can more easily decide where to put them. But I don't much like the idea of having to "nerf" casters after allowing people to play with them for 8 years when they could just make martial classes stronger (which I believe they're doing). It feels lazy by WotC to nerf casters for the sake of martial classes in my opinion.
And given some of the spell changes like Banishment and Spiritual Weapon as examples, we can assume not only versatility in spells known but also power of spells themselves will get nerfed so casters are looking like they're getting screwed in this new edition, at least so far.
I like casters having access to preparing spells. (This was our effective houserule in 3.0/3.5, but you typically had far more slots to work with.)
However, I think it's going to restrict spells to just the "best" one at highest level. (Meaning whatever can be reliably used most often.) I think it will limit interesting spell choices and weaken the gameplay.
As a GM I love having the situations where I think, "Man...why on earth did they have *that* spell memorized? But it's cool that they did!" I would love to see some more discretionary slots added at higher levels so you could keep a couple things going up there.
It's a start, but I still don't feel like it's quite there yet. It needs some more fiddling.
I think the problem they are trying to solve is casters always having a spell to fix the problem. Often you will find that casters have a better solution than rolling a d20 test. It’s crazy how they can break the d20 system with the correct spell. Low level combat- magic missile is one of the best spells until about 3rd or 4th level. Can’t see- light, darkvision, produce flame, dancing lights. Torn map- mending. Locked door- knock (does have some negatives). Terrain issue- spider climb, jump, fly, passwall, water walk, water breath, tree stride, misty step. And there is more.
It’s impossible to bring non casters up to the power of casters. Honestly though I don’t think it’s a huge problem. I don’t like the restrictions the new way of prepping spells applies. I think all casters should get bonus preps based on there spell casting mod. The bonus preps can be of any level you have slots. Well Wizards might not need this. They are probably going to prepare somewhat different. If they prepare like everyone else, they will probably get a feature called spellbook or something that will act like cleric domain spells, but the player gets to pick what’s in the book instead of being set. Speaking of Domain spells I hope they give them back their 1st level domain spells. I put it on the survey, but they will only see that if enough people put it on the survey.
Wizards, Clerics, Druids (and paladins? not using prepped spells is kind of a meme at this point) got nerfed. Sorcerers, Warlocks, Rangers and Bards got buffed.
This can't a caster nerf if half of the casters are getting buffed. Its flattening the curve between prepared casters and known casters. They're trying to do the same thing with spell prep/knowing that they did when they made neo-vancian casting by merging wizard prepped casting and sorcerer spontaneous casting.
I think the problem they are trying to solve is casters always having a spell to fix the problem. Often you will find that casters have a better solution than rolling a d20 test. It’s crazy how they can break the d20 system with the correct spell. Low level combat- magic missile is one of the best spells until about 3rd or 4th level. Can’t see- light, darkvision, produce flame, dancing lights. Torn map- mending. Locked door- knock (does have some negatives). Terrain issue- spider climb, jump, fly, passwall, water walk, water breath, tree stride, misty step. And there is more.
It’s impossible to bring non casters up to the power of casters. Honestly though I don’t think it’s a huge problem. I don’t like the restrictions the new way of prepping spells applies. I think all casters should get bonus preps based on there spell casting mod. The bonus preps can be of any level you have slots. Well Wizards might not need this. They are probably going to prepare somewhat different. If they prepare like everyone else, they will probably get a feature called spellbook or something that will act like cleric domain spells, but the player gets to pick what’s in the book instead of being set. Speaking of Domain spells I hope they give them back their 1st level domain spells. I put it on the survey, but they will only see that if enough people put it on the survey.
The funny part is that in earlier editions, there was already a balance for casters, but when they buffed cantrips, they took that away. Before that, casters had to balance damage and utility. Now, they can do both and they can actually focus more on utility.
I like casters having utility to be honest. But they don't have a corresponding limitation like they used to. Maybe stop having cantrips scale so they're useful at low levels, and you can always do something, but you're not as effective once your spells are used up. Of course, I started in the days of d4 HD and wizards having to rely on throwing darts. ;)
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Thoughts on the planned concept from the recent UA about the number of spells prepared being tied to the number and level you have for spell slots.
- My thought is I don't like it. Anyone have a counter thought about it?
It's certainly the thing I like least about the class changes. 4 level 1 slots, 4 level 1 spells prepared. I don't need that many and would rather have more than 3 3rds and 5ths at the ready. To me that takes away a lot of the utility (and Fun) of a cleric since many of their spells are just in case. And why bother to even have other high level spells? Two level 5 slots - Greater Restore and Mass Cure Wounds. Level 6 single slot will be Heal. level 9 will be Mass Heal. Pick what you want for 7 and 8... you'll need the slot for casting another Heal.
I get the idea... prepared spells are confusing for some players. I know in my player group the Cleric doesn't bother preparing new spells daily... they just have their spell list and treat it as spells known, and also just pick spells to match their spell slots. They miss out on some of the versatility of playing as a cleric, but overall it hasn't been a problem.
Still... yeah, I think it's too restricting. I think trying to make spell preparation more approachable and easier to understand for novice players is probably a good thing, but I feel like this sacrificed too much.
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I haven't actually play tested it yet, but I see 2 reasons to be in favor of the new preparation rules:
I imagine wizards and warlocks will have different preparation rules from the other casters to maintain their flavor.
I might propose 1 change that will probably satisfy everyone: instead of being 1 spell of the same level for each slot, what if it was the same level or lower? Most of the most useful utility and staple spells are low level.
Honestly I'm not a fan of nerfing spellcasters because allot dms I played with have tried to make playing wizard less fun because they hold some stupid vendetta Aginst the class for whatever reason. Telling a player they can play wizard but than making them so weak & useless that they can't do stuff is a jerk move .
To be honest this is how I generally prepare spells anyway - especially when I make a character at a higher level and haven’t yet played them. I suspect there will be a variant rule that allows for more flexible preparation, or that some classes will have a class feature that allows it. But if the changes coming will also push things to have more encounters per adventuring day then it really makes sense to ensure every spell caster has low level spells they’ll actually use when they run out of higher level spell slots, rather than always being able to count on having level 6+ slots in every encounter.
I hate it. I don't really think it's that much of a nerf, but what it does do is remove a benefit of increasing your spellcasting ability, which makes ability scores more boring.
A possible 3rd reason - to get people to try actually using some different spells.
Most people load up on all the best spells even if they don't use half of them in a day. Those are often spells clustered on certain levels. The change will get people to look at spells they might not normally.
That being said, it might not be the best way to do that. I don't personally have any feelings on it until I test it at many levels. But I would like to see more variety of spells being used. A lot of second level spells could maybe stand some improvement, and some third level spells should probably be nerfed. Just to get a more even progression.
I guess I don’t quite understand the context of this variant you are suggesting - you may have 1 slot, but are you saying you have 4 spells you might cast from that slot?
this is different from the proposed change which is if you had 1 slot, you’d only have 1 spell chosen to be available to cast.
(although since the levels start with 2 slots thus 2 spells prepared your variant is dialed down )
You wouldn’t have 4 level 1 spells available until you reached a level with 4 level 1 slots.
(None of what I’m concerned about matters if you aren’t playing the typical cleric role of healer/restorer of course. )
I don’t feel it will make one use a wider range of spells, it just means you’d put less useful spells in and still not use them.
life cleric, getting all the basic cleric spells as domain, would be the most versatile, as they would have open preparable slots for the wider range of spells.
map out your spell level progression - I think most will find the interesting spells of 3rd and higher get left behind.
If the cleric UA is the initial preview of how magic users won't have to calculate how many spells they can have prepared at any level, given the current mod+level method [ ASI's forcing a recalculation], and forced to lookup the class table for exactly how many spells per slot level can be prepared, then players will be forced to really think during gameplay about what they might need to have prepared for upcoming events.
Plus, for those just starting, reducing the think time of prep selection is reduced. You know what you need, because you are shown what you can work with.
Prepping higher level spells first then working backwards to fill in complimentary and buffing spells is one way to keep the OP feel of the upper-level spell uses but allow some measure of balance should the player ignore what magics they meddle with.
It's not a terribly large nerf and generally makes life more complicated. Total prepared spells by level (assuming a 16 stat at level 1):
The nerf isn't in number of spell, its in less versatility. Like for example, you can't prepare wish and a second level 9 spell. Same goes for tons of level 5 through 8 options. Level 3 is full of staples, but you can only have 3. Since every class can ritual cast, that is more factors to consider.
To me there are only 4 or 5 preparable slots that it makes sense to move around; A couple from 1, maybe a 2, and one or two from 4. but they make all the difference in the flexibility of the class, letting you have another 3, 5 or 6 ready to use.
(Spells marked Ritual, for clerics, still take up a prepared slot, so they aren’t just sitting there always available, unlike Wizards who can read them from a book)
Lets just say a level 17 Cleric – who should be a great support and have some fun stuff to do by this level as they now have a 9 level spell!
4,3,3,3,2,1,1,1,1
here's my list if we had to use the proposed changes
Level 1 Spells (4) – healing word, bless. Pick 2 others.
(Wouldn’t it be great if you could use those two other “prepareds” for a higher level spell?
And, if you have a feat or multiclass or Strixhaven Intitate background, you will have the base spells always prepared at 1 level and still need to fill these prepared slots with less useful ones)
Level 2 Spells (3) – gentle repose, lesser restoration, prayer of healing maybe?.
(There are others that are fun / useful, but your slots are full.)
Level 3 Spells (3)– revivify, mass healing word, spirit guardians
(Would love to also have dispel magic or remove curse available but too bad so sad. Maybe waterwalk or beacon of hope or many others)
Level 4 Spells (3)– Banishment. Pick 2 others.
(I find level 4 cleric spells to be fairly mundane, your domain probably supplies better ones.)
Level 5 Spells(2) – Greater Restoration, Mass Cure Wounds
(there are some other good spells at this level, but you don’t get to have them ready, because you need these two)
Level 6 Spell (1) – Heal.
There’s no point in there even being any other level 6 spells if you can only prepare one. Your party at this level needs you to have Heal. Except maybe for the clerics’ day off.
Level 7 Spell (1) – I dunno. Flame Strike so you get to have one fun spell to prove you can hurt things. The others are all useful at the right time.
Level 8 Spell (1)– Antimagic Field is sure a life saver when you need it. Or Holy Aura.
Level 9 Spell (1) – Mass Heal. The other options are just for your day off.
That certainly feels constraining, but this as a nerf to casters versatility it feels about right. I won't be surprised if a class like wizard circumvents it.
Yep its a horrible rule and restriction for the sake of making it easier for new players even though the current process really isn't that difficult. I mean if they want to make it a bit easier you can change the wording to "Number of spells known equal to total number of spell slots" So that way you still can only learn the same number as the new One D&D has changed to, but you can decide how to spread that number out.
If they go forward with this I could see my DM homebrewing and changing this since its so restrictive to mid and high tier play.
I dunno I disagree. I mean the first part makes sense, though again i'd prefer them say "spells know equal total spell slots" so you can more easily decide where to put them. But I don't much like the idea of having to "nerf" casters after allowing people to play with them for 8 years when they could just make martial classes stronger (which I believe they're doing). It feels lazy by WotC to nerf casters for the sake of martial classes in my opinion.
And given some of the spell changes like Banishment and Spiritual Weapon as examples, we can assume not only versatility in spells known but also power of spells themselves will get nerfed so casters are looking like they're getting screwed in this new edition, at least so far.
I like casters having access to preparing spells. (This was our effective houserule in 3.0/3.5, but you typically had far more slots to work with.)
However, I think it's going to restrict spells to just the "best" one at highest level. (Meaning whatever can be reliably used most often.) I think it will limit interesting spell choices and weaken the gameplay.
As a GM I love having the situations where I think, "Man...why on earth did they have *that* spell memorized? But it's cool that they did!" I would love to see some more discretionary slots added at higher levels so you could keep a couple things going up there.
It's a start, but I still don't feel like it's quite there yet. It needs some more fiddling.
I think the problem they are trying to solve is casters always having a spell to fix the problem. Often you will find that casters have a better solution than rolling a d20 test. It’s crazy how they can break the d20 system with the correct spell. Low level combat- magic missile is one of the best spells until about 3rd or 4th level. Can’t see- light, darkvision, produce flame, dancing lights. Torn map- mending. Locked door- knock (does have some negatives). Terrain issue- spider climb, jump, fly, passwall, water walk, water breath, tree stride, misty step. And there is more.
It’s impossible to bring non casters up to the power of casters. Honestly though I don’t think it’s a huge problem. I don’t like the restrictions the new way of prepping spells applies. I think all casters should get bonus preps based on there spell casting mod. The bonus preps can be of any level you have slots.
Well Wizards might not need this. They are probably going to prepare somewhat different. If they prepare like everyone else, they will probably get a feature called spellbook or something that will act like cleric domain spells, but the player gets to pick what’s in the book instead of being set. Speaking of Domain spells I hope they give them back their 1st level domain spells. I put it on the survey, but they will only see that if enough people put it on the survey.
Wizards, Clerics, Druids (and paladins? not using prepped spells is kind of a meme at this point) got nerfed. Sorcerers, Warlocks, Rangers and Bards got buffed.
This can't a caster nerf if half of the casters are getting buffed. Its flattening the curve between prepared casters and known casters. They're trying to do the same thing with spell prep/knowing that they did when they made neo-vancian casting by merging wizard prepped casting and sorcerer spontaneous casting.
The funny part is that in earlier editions, there was already a balance for casters, but when they buffed cantrips, they took that away. Before that, casters had to balance damage and utility. Now, they can do both and they can actually focus more on utility.
I like casters having utility to be honest. But they don't have a corresponding limitation like they used to. Maybe stop having cantrips scale so they're useful at low levels, and you can always do something, but you're not as effective once your spells are used up. Of course, I started in the days of d4 HD and wizards having to rely on throwing darts. ;)