1. Tasha's customizable races rule should be OPTIONAL, not built into every race. Set ASI's should be given for every race, with the Tasha's rule giving players the option not to take them if DMs allow it. Same could be said for spellcasting traits that let you choose your casting trait.
2. A lot of racial features just don't feel good, at least to me. The Elf and Tiefling subraces, for example, feel a bit more bland with all of them having the 1st, 3rd, 5th level spell progression, instead of the racial features they had before. Also, some races are missing their subraces, which means racial features end up missing as well.
3. Humans in particular feel bad with what is basically a new version of the variant human being forced on players. Some of us liked having the +1 to every stat.
4. Hybrid race rules basically becoming "you have to pick one," in terms of game mechanics is kinda dumb. If you're going to do Hybrid race rules, put more effort into it.
NOTE: Not everything about the races is bad. I actually like that Tieflings have subraces for the different alignments of the lower planes and Goliaths having subraces is pretty cool. Stonecunning is MUCH better now. The races also seem to lean a bit less into forcing proficiencies on players, which is nice. However, this leads me to my 5th point.
5. These proficiencies often reflected the lore of these races (NOT their cultures). Instead of forcing proficiencies, other bonuses could be given relating to said proficiencies. Elves, for example, instead of having Perception automatically, can get a +1 (or +2 or +1d4 or whatever) bonus, reflecting their heightened senses.
Essentially, I want races to reflect their lore, fulfill the fantasy of being said race, and feel significant mechanically. The versions in the UA start to do these things, but they fall short.
1. Tasha's customizable races rule should be OPTIONAL, not built into every race. Set ASI's should be given for every race, with the Tasha's rule giving players the option not to take them if DMs allow it. Same could be said for spellcasting traits that let you choose your casting trait.
That’s not the current state of the race/lineage rules though. Currently, races don’t get ASI at all. That was moved to Backgrounds.
I will point out that racial ASI means literally saying a given race is better at something or worse at something, and the moral and ethical real world consequences of that do not belong in an escapist game unless you like repeating the same mistakes over and over again.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I will point out that racial ASI means literally saying a given race is better at something or worse at something, and the moral and ethical real world consequences of that do not belong in an escapist game unless you like repeating the same mistakes over and over again.
These are fantasy races. The Hell do you mean "real world consequences?"
Agree that floating ASIs don't make much sense on backgrounds, disagree that they make less sense than fixed racial ASIs. At this point, there's no reason to have them separate from rolling for stats, so it doesn't make much sense to stick them in another bit of the book.
Fixed racial ASIs are ass. It sucks that making an orc Warlock is actively shooting yourself in the foot. The rules should be there to support character ideas, not the other way around.
Elf subraces are about the same. You can choose between a changeable arcane spell and a faster speed. Just because they're recontextualized as choices within individual features doesn't mean they're any worse.
I like the new human. It's amazing that they finally get something unique (free inspiration on long rest) instead of just being the "normal guy with less stuff than everybody else" race. I've never liked the universal +1 myself because of how situational it's practicality is and how poorly it meshes with Standard Array.
I'm not sure how I feel about the hybrid rules, but I do know that it feels less awkward than giving only two hybrid races and leaving the rest to imagination.
I wouldn't hate an elf feature that somehow improves sight beyond Darkvision, but I don't think it's necessary for an effective elf species.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I will point out that racial ASI means literally saying a given race is better at something or worse at something, and the moral and ethical real world consequences of that do not belong in an escapist game unless you like repeating the same mistakes over and over again.
These are fantasy races. The Hell do you mean "real world consequences?"
the little mermaid is a fairytale and yet…
the fantasy races BS is just that, BS, and while you may not have seen any real world consequences, plenty of others did and still do experience them.
not going to relitigate that crap fest, you have an account, there are literally hundreds of posts on it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Agree that floating ASIs don't make much sense on backgrounds, disagree that they make less sense than fixed racial ASIs. At this point, there's no reason to have them separate from rolling for stats, so it doesn't make much sense to stick them in another bit of the book.
Fixed racial ASIs are ass. It sucks that making an orc Warlock is actively shooting yourself in the foot. The rules should be there to support character ideas, not the other way around.
Elf subraces are about the same. You can choose between a changeable arcane spell and a faster speed. Just because they're recontextualized as choices within individual features doesn't mean they're any worse.
I like the new human. It's amazing that they finally get something unique (free inspiration on long rest) instead of just being the "normal guy with less stuff than everybody else" race. I've never liked the universal +1 myself because of how situational it's practicality is and how poorly it meshes with Standard Array.
I'm not sure how I feel about the hybrid rules, but I do know that it feels less awkward than giving only two hybrid races and leaving the rest to imagination.
I wouldn't hate an elf feature that somehow improves sight beyond Darkvision, but I don't think it's necessary for an effective elf species.
Making an Orc Warlock wouldn't be shooting yourself in the foot, lmao. You'd just use point buy to give yourself a higher CHA and eventually you'll be able to get to 20. No need to start at a 17 for your specific stat for every race.
Elf subraces are not the same. There's a bunch of stuff the subraces got in the PHB they don't get in UA. They're just bland now.
Honestly, the free inspiration on long rest is unique, I'll give you that, but the thing about Humans is that they're supposed to be well-rounded (+1 to everything), or adaptable (Variant). UA Human goes with the adaptable fantasy a little bit, but the inspiration feature feels... I don't know... Out of place? And I feel as if it's even more OP than the other races, which was already an issue with Human in some peoples' eyes.
The new Hybrid rules are literally just picking one race's mechanics and sticking with that. If you're a Half-Elf, your features don't reflect a blending of Human and Elf abilities, which is honestly shite.
I will point out that racial ASI means literally saying a given race is better at something or worse at something, and the moral and ethical real world consequences of that do not belong in an escapist game unless you like repeating the same mistakes over and over again.
These are fantasy races. The Hell do you mean "real world consequences?"
the little mermaid is a fairytale and yet…
the fantasy races BS is just that, BS, and while you may not have seen any real world consequences, plenty of others did and still do experience them.
not going to relitigate that crap fest, you have an account, there are literally hundreds of posts on it.
^implying that fantasy races are equivalent to real world races
Look, I get that SOME races have had depictions that clearly pull from racist caricatures, but in 5e as it is, that argument doesn't work as well.
Also, I have no idea why you brought up Little Mermaid. Something to do with how some idjits don't like that the new actress is black? Not sure how that relates to an argument about tabletop mechanics regarding literal non-human races/species/whatever would be the best term, because both have issues.
Agree that floating ASIs don't make much sense on backgrounds, disagree that they make less sense than fixed racial ASIs. At this point, there's no reason to have them separate from rolling for stats, so it doesn't make much sense to stick them in another bit of the book.
Fixed racial ASIs are ass. It sucks that making an orc Warlock is actively shooting yourself in the foot. The rules should be there to support character ideas, not the other way around.
Elf subraces are about the same. You can choose between a changeable arcane spell and a faster speed. Just because they're recontextualized as choices within individual features doesn't mean they're any worse.
I like the new human. It's amazing that they finally get something unique (free inspiration on long rest) instead of just being the "normal guy with less stuff than everybody else" race. I've never liked the universal +1 myself because of how situational it's practicality is and how poorly it meshes with Standard Array.
I'm not sure how I feel about the hybrid rules, but I do know that it feels less awkward than giving only two hybrid races and leaving the rest to imagination.
I wouldn't hate an elf feature that somehow improves sight beyond Darkvision, but I don't think it's necessary for an effective elf species.
Making an Orc Warlock wouldn't be shooting yourself in the foot, lmao. You'd just use point buy to give yourself a higher CHA and eventually you'll be able to get to 20. No need to start at a 17 for your specific stat for every race.
Elf subraces are not the same. There's a bunch of stuff the subraces got in the PHB they don't get in UA. They're just bland now.
Honestly, the free inspiration on long rest is unique, I'll give you that, but the thing about Humans is that they're supposed to be well-rounded (+1 to everything), or adaptable (Variant). UA Human goes with the adaptable fantasy a little bit, but the inspiration feature feels... I don't know... Out of place? And I feel as if it's even more OP than the other races, which was already an issue with Human in some peoples' eyes.
The new Hybrid rules are literally just picking one race's mechanics and sticking with that. If you're a Half-Elf, your features don't reflect a blending of Human and Elf abilities, which is honestly shite.
Needing starting with a 14 or 15 in your main stat is shooting yourself in the foot. The game's bounded accuracy assumes that you start with a +3 modifier in your main stat, something you can't do with fixed racial ASIs unless they align with your class.
The 2014 high elf gives you one unreplaceable Wizard cantrip, a few weapon proficiencies, and an extra language. The 1D&D high elf gives you one replaceable Arcane cantrip, detect magic (quite powerful and thematic), and misty step (very powerful and thematic). The 2014 wood elf gives you 5 extra feet of movement, a few weapon proficiencies, and a very situational chance to Hide. The 1D&D wood elf gives you 5 extra feet of movement, druidcraft (very thematic), longstrider (very powerful, quite thematic), and pass without trace (incredibly powerful, very thematic). Unless you used the hell out of those few free weapon proficiencies, I really don't see how 1D&D is taking away from subraces.
Humans can accomplish great things despite their short lifespans because they possess a sheer determination that longer-lived species tend to lack. To me, that's infinitely more interesting and representative of humanity than "they're okay at most things". And things being out of balance is expected. That's not a fundamental flaw with the whole idea, that's something that can (and should) be neatly ironed out via the playtesting process.
In 2014, if you're a half-gnome, your features don't reflect a blending of human and gnome abilities, which is honestly shite, mostly because half-elves get neat tricks and you get left in the dust. Personally, I'd prefer there be no mechanical advantages to hybrids than only two possible mixes producing results.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I will point out that racial ASI means literally saying a given race is better at something or worse at something, and the moral and ethical real world consequences of that do not belong in an escapist game unless you like repeating the same mistakes over and over again.
These are fantasy races. The Hell do you mean "real world consequences?"
the little mermaid is a fairytale and yet…
the fantasy races BS is just that, BS, and while you may not have seen any real world consequences, plenty of others did and still do experience them.
not going to relitigate that crap fest, you have an account, there are literally hundreds of posts on it.
^implying that fantasy races are equivalent to real world races
Look, I get that SOME races have had depictions that clearly pull from racist caricatures, but in 5e as it is, that argument doesn't work as well.
Also, I have no idea why you brought up Little Mermaid. Something to do with how some idjits don't like that the new actress is black? Not sure how that relates to an argument about tabletop mechanics regarding literal non-human races/species/whatever would be the best term, because both have issues.
the point went over your head, so you don’t see how it relates is fairly honest.
again, lots of posts on the topic already, and note that those arguments are why they don’t exist anymore. That alone should tell you plenty about how “fantasy” anything still has real world impact.
The R word applies, and that’s why racial ASIs are out.
as others noted, the focus now is on the special capabilities of the not-human/inhuman/other than human beings, and those are changing for the better as the game advances, giving more flexibility.
personally, I think players getting more flexibility is cool, but I also don’t even do starting out ASIs myself, at all (so, not even from backgrounds). What you roll or point buy or assign is what you start with. Then you get better as you advance.
and there are more interesting abilities to give a group of people than bonuses to ability scores. Hell, there is a thread about bugbear PCs….
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I initially felt dubious about abandoning fixed racial ASIs, but I wouldn’t want to go back to them now.
Having home-brewed a number of races before Tasha, I realised that, in many cases, the ASIs were being placed arbitrarily: e.g. you might give a race +1 Charisma, but it could equally have been one of two or three other ability scores. So, now, someone who chooses that species but chooses to build their character upon abilities that don’t benefit from the ASI has to accept an effective penalty, without any meaningful point.
Further, even where a fixed ASI seems to fit well with the typical D&D archetype for a species, it penalises players who wish to build characters that match other archetypes. So, the classic Elf with +2 Dexterity is great if you want to build Legolas, but what about those wood elves with axes that Tolkien mentions in the Silmarillion? What about a player who grew up with Warhammer Fantasy Battle and would like to model their character on the Phoenix Guard (wielding halberds), White Lions of Chrace (great axes) or Swordmasters of Hoeth (great swords)? Do they just have to accept that they will always be a step behind a longbow and rapier High Elf fighter?
1. Tasha's customizable races rule should be OPTIONAL, not built into every race. Set ASI's should be given for every race, with the Tasha's rule giving players the option not to take them if DMs allow it. Same could be said for spellcasting traits that let you choose your casting trait.
You are welcome to force the players at your table to put their ASIs where you tell them to do so, but genetic determinism is a IRL philosophy that harm many people IRL so it has been removed from this Fun, Fantasy game. You've lost the argument and we're not going to repeat the arguments all over again there are thousands of posts on the topic for you to read if you want to understand why this change has come about.
2. A lot of racial features just don't feel good, at least to me. The Elf and Tiefling subraces, for example, feel a bit more bland with all of them having the 1st, 3rd, 5th level spell progression, instead of the racial features they had before. Also, some races are missing their subraces, which means racial features end up missing as well.
There is almost no change mechanically to Elf or Tiefling, just a reorganization of how they are presented so could you please be more specific. A gut reaction of "This is different, so I don't like it." is normal an natural but it is not logical nor productive.
3. Humans in particular feel bad with what is basically a new version of the variant human being forced on players. Some of us liked having the +1 to every stat.
The +1 in every stat human was mainly good for multiclassing, it was also a good choice for new players. But the free Inspiration is roughly as good on the average adventuring day and is much more exciting to use.
4. Hybrid race rules basically becoming "you have to pick one," in terms of game mechanics is kinda dumb. If you're going to do Hybrid race rules, put more effort into it.
Agreed the hybrid species rules are dumb, but there is no other simple solution to allowing every possible different race hybrid while also preventing optimizers from using them to make unbalanced broken species.
5. These proficiencies often reflected the lore of these races (NOT their cultures). Instead of forcing proficiencies, other bonuses could be given relating to said proficiencies. Elves, for example, instead of having Perception automatically, can get a +1 (or +2 or +1d4 or whatever) bonus, reflecting their heightened senses.
Species still have their proficiencies (including Elves having keen senses) so I don't know what you are complaining about here.
Essentially, I want races to reflect their lore, fulfill the fantasy of being said race, and feel significant mechanically. The versions in the UA start to do these things, but they fall short.
Lore can vary setting to setting which means it belong in setting / campaign books not in the basic rules of the game. E.g. a setting where Elves are alien invaders from another plane would be very different to one where Elves are the most ancient native species to a continent, or a setting where Orcs and Goblins are the result of a curse that disfigures other humanoids would be very different from one where they are just another type of humanoid.
Agree that floating ASIs don't make much sense on backgrounds, disagree that they make less sense than fixed racial ASIs. At this point, there's no reason to have them separate from rolling for stats, so it doesn't make much sense to stick them in another bit of the book.
Fixed racial ASIs are ass. It sucks that making an orc Warlock is actively shooting yourself in the foot. The rules should be there to support character ideas, not the other way around.
Elf subraces are about the same. You can choose between a changeable arcane spell and a faster speed. Just because they're recontextualized as choices within individual features doesn't mean they're any worse.
I like the new human. It's amazing that they finally get something unique (free inspiration on long rest) instead of just being the "normal guy with less stuff than everybody else" race. I've never liked the universal +1 myself because of how situational it's practicality is and how poorly it meshes with Standard Array.
I'm not sure how I feel about the hybrid rules, but I do know that it feels less awkward than giving only two hybrid races and leaving the rest to imagination.
I wouldn't hate an elf feature that somehow improves sight beyond Darkvision, but I don't think it's necessary for an effective elf species.
Making an Orc Warlock wouldn't be shooting yourself in the foot, lmao. You'd just use point buy to give yourself a higher CHA and eventually you'll be able to get to 20. No need to start at a 17 for your specific stat for every race.
Elf subraces are not the same. There's a bunch of stuff the subraces got in the PHB they don't get in UA. They're just bland now.
Honestly, the free inspiration on long rest is unique, I'll give you that, but the thing about Humans is that they're supposed to be well-rounded (+1 to everything), or adaptable (Variant). UA Human goes with the adaptable fantasy a little bit, but the inspiration feature feels... I don't know... Out of place? And I feel as if it's even more OP than the other races, which was already an issue with Human in some peoples' eyes.
The new Hybrid rules are literally just picking one race's mechanics and sticking with that. If you're a Half-Elf, your features don't reflect a blending of Human and Elf abilities, which is honestly shite.
Needing starting with a 14 or 15 in your main stat is shooting yourself in the foot. The game's bounded accuracy assumes that you start with a +3 modifier in your main stat, something you can't do with fixed racial ASIs unless they align with your class.
The 2014 high elf gives you one unreplaceable Wizard cantrip, a few weapon proficiencies, and an extra language. The 1D&D high elf gives you one replaceable Arcane cantrip, detect magic (quite powerful and thematic), and misty step (very powerful and thematic). The 2014 wood elf gives you 5 extra feet of movement, a few weapon proficiencies, and a very situational chance to Hide. The 1D&D wood elf gives you 5 extra feet of movement, druidcraft (very thematic), longstrider (very powerful, quite thematic), and pass without trace (incredibly powerful, very thematic). Unless you used the hell out of those few free weapon proficiencies, I really don't see how 1D&D is taking away from subraces.
Humans can accomplish great things despite their short lifespans because they possess a sheer determination that longer-lived species tend to lack. To me, that's infinitely more interesting and representative of humanity than "they're okay at most things". And things being out of balance is expected. That's not a fundamental flaw with the whole idea, that's something that can (and should) be neatly ironed out via the playtesting process.
In 2014, if you're a half-gnome, your features don't reflect a blending of human and gnome abilities, which is honestly shite, mostly because half-elves get neat tricks and you get left in the dust. Personally, I'd prefer there be no mechanical advantages to hybrids than only two possible mixes producing results.
I honestly have no idea what you're talking about with the bonded accuracy thing, but I've made characters with +2 to their main stat a lot and have done perfectly fine. It's REALLY not that bad...
Sure, they might be more powerful, but you're missing one of the main points. They took the 1,3,5 spell approach to them all, which feels bland. Also, with Wood Elves, it's not quite thematic. In lore, they were always less magical than other Elves, but were also stronger and had heightened senses. I will agree with you on the High Elf, but would like to point out that their original 5e features were meant to reflect both their innate magic AND how their brains are developed differently.
EDIT: The weapon proficiencies reflected a connection Elves had to their god, Corellon, who was pretty good with bows and swords. Instead of a proficiency in these weapons though, Elves should have gotten a +1 bonus if they decide to use these weapons, or some other feature that can help them if they decide not to.
Well, you might like one specific viewpoint on Humans, but the truth is that both should be reflected in how Humans are designed. And only one is being reflected. I will say that the more I think about it, the more I'm okay with the inspiration thing, BUT the whole race as designed should be an alternate version of the Variant (or the base Human while the +1 to everything is Variant), rather than being the only option.
In 2014, you'd have to use homebrew to be a Half-Gnome, so your comparison kinda sucks. Making other races seemingly playable doesn't justify ruining races that already exist. They could have at least come up with a hybrid template of some sort. Shite, that's what I've been doing myself.
I will point out that racial ASI means literally saying a given race is better at something or worse at something, and the moral and ethical real world consequences of that do not belong in an escapist game unless you like repeating the same mistakes over and over again.
These are fantasy races. The Hell do you mean "real world consequences?"
the little mermaid is a fairytale and yet…
the fantasy races BS is just that, BS, and while you may not have seen any real world consequences, plenty of others did and still do experience them.
not going to relitigate that crap fest, you have an account, there are literally hundreds of posts on it.
^implying that fantasy races are equivalent to real world races
Look, I get that SOME races have had depictions that clearly pull from racist caricatures, but in 5e as it is, that argument doesn't work as well.
Also, I have no idea why you brought up Little Mermaid. Something to do with how some idjits don't like that the new actress is black? Not sure how that relates to an argument about tabletop mechanics regarding literal non-human races/species/whatever would be the best term, because both have issues.
the point went over your head, so you don’t see how it relates is fairly honest.
again, lots of posts on the topic already, and note that those arguments are why they don’t exist anymore. That alone should tell you plenty about how “fantasy” anything still has real world impact.
The R word applies, and that’s why racial ASIs are out.
as others noted, the focus now is on the special capabilities of the not-human/inhuman/other than human beings, and those are changing for the better as the game advances, giving more flexibility.
personally, I think players getting more flexibility is cool, but I also don’t even do starting out ASIs myself, at all (so, not even from backgrounds). What you roll or point buy or assign is what you start with. Then you get better as you advance.
and there are more interesting abilities to give a group of people than bonuses to ability scores. Hell, there is a thread about bugbear PCs….
If you care about these supposed issues with races in D&D, why have races with different capabilities at all? Every character should just be human at that point, right? Hell, why play D&D at all? The game has so many concepts that from your logic would have to reflect xenophobic ideas of some sort. You should just move on to another game... Unless you're a hypocrite. Please, stop trying to peddle this argument. It's inherently flawed and problematic in general, and it's honestly quite offensive to compare non-human races to human ethnicities...
I initially felt dubious about abandoning fixed racial ASIs, but I wouldn’t want to go back to them now.
Having home-brewed a number of races before Tasha, I realised that, in many cases, the ASIs were being placed arbitrarily: e.g. you might give a race +1 Charisma, but it could equally have been one of two or three other ability scores. So, now, someone who chooses that species but chooses to build their character upon abilities that don’t benefit from the ASI has to accept an effective penalty, without any meaningful point.
Further, even where a fixed ASI seems to fit well with the typical D&D archetype for a species, it penalises players who wish to build characters that match other archetypes. So, the classic Elf with +2 Dexterity is great if you want to build Legolas, but what about those wood elves with axes that Tolkien mentions in the Silmarillion? What about a player who grew up with Warhammer Fantasy Battle and would like to model their character on the Phoenix Guard (wielding halberds), White Lions of Chrace (great axes) or Swordmasters of Hoeth (great swords)? Do they just have to accept that they will always be a step behind a longbow and rapier High Elf fighter?
Dude, every race's cap is 20 anyways. Just use point buy and get to 20 with your desired stat. Easy solve.
1. Tasha's customizable races rule should be OPTIONAL, not built into every race. Set ASI's should be given for every race, with the Tasha's rule giving players the option not to take them if DMs allow it. Same could be said for spellcasting traits that let you choose your casting trait.
You are welcome to force the players at your table to put their ASIs where you tell them to do so, but genetic determinism is a IRL philosophy that harm many people IRL so it has been removed from this Fun, Fantasy game. You've lost the argument and we're not going to repeat the arguments all over again there are thousands of posts on the topic for you to read if you want to understand why this change has come about.
2. A lot of racial features just don't feel good, at least to me. The Elf and Tiefling subraces, for example, feel a bit more bland with all of them having the 1st, 3rd, 5th level spell progression, instead of the racial features they had before. Also, some races are missing their subraces, which means racial features end up missing as well.
There is almost no change mechanically to Elf or Tiefling, just a reorganization of how they are presented so could you please be more specific. A gut reaction of "This is different, so I don't like it." is normal an natural but it is not logical nor productive.
3. Humans in particular feel bad with what is basically a new version of the variant human being forced on players. Some of us liked having the +1 to every stat.
The +1 in every stat human was mainly good for multiclassing, it was also a good choice for new players. But the free Inspiration is roughly as good on the average adventuring day and is much more exciting to use.
4. Hybrid race rules basically becoming "you have to pick one," in terms of game mechanics is kinda dumb. If you're going to do Hybrid race rules, put more effort into it.
Agreed the hybrid species rules are dumb, but there is no other simple solution to allowing every possible different race hybrid while also preventing optimizers from using them to make unbalanced broken species.
5. These proficiencies often reflected the lore of these races (NOT their cultures). Instead of forcing proficiencies, other bonuses could be given relating to said proficiencies. Elves, for example, instead of having Perception automatically, can get a +1 (or +2 or +1d4 or whatever) bonus, reflecting their heightened senses.
Species still have their proficiencies (including Elves having keen senses) so I don't know what you are complaining about here.
Essentially, I want races to reflect their lore, fulfill the fantasy of being said race, and feel significant mechanically. The versions in the UA start to do these things, but they fall short.
Lore can vary setting to setting which means it belong in setting / campaign books not in the basic rules of the game. E.g. a setting where Elves are alien invaders from another plane would be very different to one where Elves are the most ancient native species to a continent, or a setting where Orcs and Goblins are the result of a curse that disfigures other humanoids would be very different from one where they are just another type of humanoid.
1. I don't even have to force them. They actually like it and are okay with it, because the idea of genetic determinism isn't the reason for fixed racial ASI's. It's the fact that these are literal non-human beings. It's like if someone were to play a literal bear. Wouldn't make much sense if you gave it non-bear capabilities.
2. Elves are quite different, actually. They took the 1,3,5 spell progression of Drow and slapped it on the other subraces. I mentioned it in an earlier reply, but this actually doesn't reflect the true capabilities of Wood Elves and it's debatable whether or not this is good for High Elves. Tieflings got the same treatment, which makes a bit more sense, but I'm just saying subraces shouldn't be different solely because of spells.
3. So why can't both Humans be options?
4. That's why you need a complex solution: templates.
5. I actually didn't see Keen Senses when I was reading it, but I easily could have missed it. Still, my point about changing from proficiencies to an extra bonus in said skill still stands.
6. Yes, but these races have specific lore because there's a specific multiverse these races belong to. That lore should be reflected.
None of this will happen. WotC is moving away from stats etc being race based to fit their multiverse strategy where races can vary in both culture and form between universes.
None of this will happen. WotC is moving away from stats etc being race based to fit their multiverse strategy where races can vary in both culture and form between universes.
I know, because it allows them to put in less effort
Agree that floating ASIs don't make much sense on backgrounds, disagree that they make less sense than fixed racial ASIs. At this point, there's no reason to have them separate from rolling for stats, so it doesn't make much sense to stick them in another bit of the book.
Fixed racial ASIs are ass. It sucks that making an orc Warlock is actively shooting yourself in the foot. The rules should be there to support character ideas, not the other way around.
Elf subraces are about the same. You can choose between a changeable arcane spell and a faster speed. Just because they're recontextualized as choices within individual features doesn't mean they're any worse.
I like the new human. It's amazing that they finally get something unique (free inspiration on long rest) instead of just being the "normal guy with less stuff than everybody else" race. I've never liked the universal +1 myself because of how situational it's practicality is and how poorly it meshes with Standard Array.
I'm not sure how I feel about the hybrid rules, but I do know that it feels less awkward than giving only two hybrid races and leaving the rest to imagination.
I wouldn't hate an elf feature that somehow improves sight beyond Darkvision, but I don't think it's necessary for an effective elf species.
Making an Orc Warlock wouldn't be shooting yourself in the foot, lmao. You'd just use point buy to give yourself a higher CHA and eventually you'll be able to get to 20. No need to start at a 17 for your specific stat for every race.
Elf subraces are not the same. There's a bunch of stuff the subraces got in the PHB they don't get in UA. They're just bland now.
Honestly, the free inspiration on long rest is unique, I'll give you that, but the thing about Humans is that they're supposed to be well-rounded (+1 to everything), or adaptable (Variant). UA Human goes with the adaptable fantasy a little bit, but the inspiration feature feels... I don't know... Out of place? And I feel as if it's even more OP than the other races, which was already an issue with Human in some peoples' eyes.
The new Hybrid rules are literally just picking one race's mechanics and sticking with that. If you're a Half-Elf, your features don't reflect a blending of Human and Elf abilities, which is honestly shite.
Needing starting with a 14 or 15 in your main stat is shooting yourself in the foot. The game's bounded accuracy assumes that you start with a +3 modifier in your main stat, something you can't do with fixed racial ASIs unless they align with your class.
The 2014 high elf gives you one unreplaceable Wizard cantrip, a few weapon proficiencies, and an extra language. The 1D&D high elf gives you one replaceable Arcane cantrip, detect magic (quite powerful and thematic), and misty step (very powerful and thematic). The 2014 wood elf gives you 5 extra feet of movement, a few weapon proficiencies, and a very situational chance to Hide. The 1D&D wood elf gives you 5 extra feet of movement, druidcraft (very thematic), longstrider (very powerful, quite thematic), and pass without trace (incredibly powerful, very thematic). Unless you used the hell out of those few free weapon proficiencies, I really don't see how 1D&D is taking away from subraces.
Humans can accomplish great things despite their short lifespans because they possess a sheer determination that longer-lived species tend to lack. To me, that's infinitely more interesting and representative of humanity than "they're okay at most things". And things being out of balance is expected. That's not a fundamental flaw with the whole idea, that's something that can (and should) be neatly ironed out via the playtesting process.
In 2014, if you're a half-gnome, your features don't reflect a blending of human and gnome abilities, which is honestly shite, mostly because half-elves get neat tricks and you get left in the dust. Personally, I'd prefer there be no mechanical advantages to hybrids than only two possible mixes producing results.
I honestly have no idea what you're talking about with the bonded accuracy thing, but I've made characters with +2 to their main stat a lot and have done perfectly fine. It's REALLY not that bad...
Sure, they might be more powerful, but you're missing one of the main points. They took the 1,3,5 spell approach to them all, which feels bland. Also, with Wood Elves, it's not quite thematic. In lore, they were always less magical than other Elves, but were also stronger and had heightened senses. I will agree with you on the High Elf, but would like to point out that their original 5e features were meant to reflect both their innate magic AND how their brains are developed differently.
EDIT: The weapon proficiencies reflected a connection Elves had to their god, Corellon, who was pretty good with bows and swords. Instead of a proficiency in these weapons though, Elves should have gotten a +1 bonus if they decide to use these weapons, or some other feature that can help them if they decide not to.
Well, you might like one specific viewpoint on Humans, but the truth is that both should be reflected in how Humans are designed. And only one is being reflected. I will say that the more I think about it, the more I'm okay with the inspiration thing, BUT the whole race as designed should be an alternate version of the Variant (or the base Human while the +1 to everything is Variant), rather than being the only option.
In 2014, you'd have to use homebrew to be a Half-Gnome, so your comparison kinda sucks. Making other races seemingly playable doesn't justify ruining races that already exist. They could have at least come up with a hybrid template of some sort. Shite, that's what I've been doing myself.
Bounded accuracy is the core math of the game. The ACs and to-hit bonuses of every single monster are based on it. You shouldn't fall short of what the core math of the game assumes just because of the species you picked.
My point wasn't that the subraces are more powerful, it's that they didn't really lose much of anything. Those 1st and 2nd level spells came at the cost of a couple incidental and barely-used features. And anyways, I don't think that you'll see a high elf casting detect magic, a wood elf casting pass without trace, and a drow casting darkness and say "well they're all basically the same thing". Spells have a broad scope.
But why should both "versions" of humans be reflected? The reason variant human was variant in 5e was because feats were an optional rule.
The fact that you can't be a half-gnome in 2014 is my whole point. In 2014, there are exactly 2 officially approved mixes, despite the countless species. That's lame. I think I've decided I don't love the new rules, but I'd honestly rather have no concrete rules at all than have WotC slap me in the face and say "half-gnomes are impossible!" To me, that's an improvement, if not a earth-shattering one.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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1. Tasha's customizable races rule should be OPTIONAL, not built into every race. Set ASI's should be given for every race, with the Tasha's rule giving players the option not to take them if DMs allow it. Same could be said for spellcasting traits that let you choose your casting trait.
2. A lot of racial features just don't feel good, at least to me. The Elf and Tiefling subraces, for example, feel a bit more bland with all of them having the 1st, 3rd, 5th level spell progression, instead of the racial features they had before. Also, some races are missing their subraces, which means racial features end up missing as well.
3. Humans in particular feel bad with what is basically a new version of the variant human being forced on players. Some of us liked having the +1 to every stat.
4. Hybrid race rules basically becoming "you have to pick one," in terms of game mechanics is kinda dumb. If you're going to do Hybrid race rules, put more effort into it.
NOTE: Not everything about the races is bad. I actually like that Tieflings have subraces for the different alignments of the lower planes and Goliaths having subraces is pretty cool. Stonecunning is MUCH better now. The races also seem to lean a bit less into forcing proficiencies on players, which is nice. However, this leads me to my 5th point.
5. These proficiencies often reflected the lore of these races (NOT their cultures). Instead of forcing proficiencies, other bonuses could be given relating to said proficiencies. Elves, for example, instead of having Perception automatically, can get a +1 (or +2 or +1d4 or whatever) bonus, reflecting their heightened senses.
Essentially, I want races to reflect their lore, fulfill the fantasy of being said race, and feel significant mechanically. The versions in the UA start to do these things, but they fall short.
That’s not the current state of the race/lineage rules though. Currently, races don’t get ASI at all. That was moved to Backgrounds.
I will point out that racial ASI means literally saying a given race is better at something or worse at something, and the moral and ethical real world consequences of that do not belong in an escapist game unless you like repeating the same mistakes over and over again.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
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These are fantasy races. The Hell do you mean "real world consequences?"
That's my point. It makes LESS sense.
Agree that floating ASIs don't make much sense on backgrounds, disagree that they make less sense than fixed racial ASIs. At this point, there's no reason to have them separate from rolling for stats, so it doesn't make much sense to stick them in another bit of the book.
Fixed racial ASIs are ass. It sucks that making an orc Warlock is actively shooting yourself in the foot. The rules should be there to support character ideas, not the other way around.
Elf subraces are about the same. You can choose between a changeable arcane spell and a faster speed. Just because they're recontextualized as choices within individual features doesn't mean they're any worse.
I like the new human. It's amazing that they finally get something unique (free inspiration on long rest) instead of just being the "normal guy with less stuff than everybody else" race. I've never liked the universal +1 myself because of how situational it's practicality is and how poorly it meshes with Standard Array.
I'm not sure how I feel about the hybrid rules, but I do know that it feels less awkward than giving only two hybrid races and leaving the rest to imagination.
I wouldn't hate an elf feature that somehow improves sight beyond Darkvision, but I don't think it's necessary for an effective elf species.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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the little mermaid is a fairytale and yet…
the fantasy races BS is just that, BS, and while you may not have seen any real world consequences, plenty of others did and still do experience them.
not going to relitigate that crap fest, you have an account, there are literally hundreds of posts on it.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Making an Orc Warlock wouldn't be shooting yourself in the foot, lmao. You'd just use point buy to give yourself a higher CHA and eventually you'll be able to get to 20. No need to start at a 17 for your specific stat for every race.
Elf subraces are not the same. There's a bunch of stuff the subraces got in the PHB they don't get in UA. They're just bland now.
Honestly, the free inspiration on long rest is unique, I'll give you that, but the thing about Humans is that they're supposed to be well-rounded (+1 to everything), or adaptable (Variant). UA Human goes with the adaptable fantasy a little bit, but the inspiration feature feels... I don't know... Out of place? And I feel as if it's even more OP than the other races, which was already an issue with Human in some peoples' eyes.
The new Hybrid rules are literally just picking one race's mechanics and sticking with that. If you're a Half-Elf, your features don't reflect a blending of Human and Elf abilities, which is honestly shite.
^implying that fantasy races are equivalent to real world races
Look, I get that SOME races have had depictions that clearly pull from racist caricatures, but in 5e as it is, that argument doesn't work as well.
Also, I have no idea why you brought up Little Mermaid. Something to do with how some idjits don't like that the new actress is black? Not sure how that relates to an argument about tabletop mechanics regarding literal non-human races/species/whatever would be the best term, because both have issues.
Needing starting with a 14 or 15 in your main stat is shooting yourself in the foot. The game's bounded accuracy assumes that you start with a +3 modifier in your main stat, something you can't do with fixed racial ASIs unless they align with your class.
The 2014 high elf gives you one unreplaceable Wizard cantrip, a few weapon proficiencies, and an extra language. The 1D&D high elf gives you one replaceable Arcane cantrip, detect magic (quite powerful and thematic), and misty step (very powerful and thematic). The 2014 wood elf gives you 5 extra feet of movement, a few weapon proficiencies, and a very situational chance to Hide. The 1D&D wood elf gives you 5 extra feet of movement, druidcraft (very thematic), longstrider (very powerful, quite thematic), and pass without trace (incredibly powerful, very thematic). Unless you used the hell out of those few free weapon proficiencies, I really don't see how 1D&D is taking away from subraces.
Humans can accomplish great things despite their short lifespans because they possess a sheer determination that longer-lived species tend to lack. To me, that's infinitely more interesting and representative of humanity than "they're okay at most things". And things being out of balance is expected. That's not a fundamental flaw with the whole idea, that's something that can (and should) be neatly ironed out via the playtesting process.
In 2014, if you're a half-gnome, your features don't reflect a blending of human and gnome abilities, which is honestly shite, mostly because half-elves get neat tricks and you get left in the dust. Personally, I'd prefer there be no mechanical advantages to hybrids than only two possible mixes producing results.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
the point went over your head, so you don’t see how it relates is fairly honest.
again, lots of posts on the topic already, and note that those arguments are why they don’t exist anymore. That alone should tell you plenty about how “fantasy” anything still has real world impact.
The R word applies, and that’s why racial ASIs are out.
as others noted, the focus now is on the special capabilities of the not-human/inhuman/other than human beings, and those are changing for the better as the game advances, giving more flexibility.
personally, I think players getting more flexibility is cool, but I also don’t even do starting out ASIs myself, at all (so, not even from backgrounds). What you roll or point buy or assign is what you start with. Then you get better as you advance.
and there are more interesting abilities to give a group of people than bonuses to ability scores. Hell, there is a thread about bugbear PCs….
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I initially felt dubious about abandoning fixed racial ASIs, but I wouldn’t want to go back to them now.
Having home-brewed a number of races before Tasha, I realised that, in many cases, the ASIs were being placed arbitrarily: e.g. you might give a race +1 Charisma, but it could equally have been one of two or three other ability scores. So, now, someone who chooses that species but chooses to build their character upon abilities that don’t benefit from the ASI has to accept an effective penalty, without any meaningful point.
Further, even where a fixed ASI seems to fit well with the typical D&D archetype for a species, it penalises players who wish to build characters that match other archetypes. So, the classic Elf with +2 Dexterity is great if you want to build Legolas, but what about those wood elves with axes that Tolkien mentions in the Silmarillion? What about a player who grew up with Warhammer Fantasy Battle and would like to model their character on the Phoenix Guard (wielding halberds), White Lions of Chrace (great axes) or Swordmasters of Hoeth (great swords)? Do they just have to accept that they will always be a step behind a longbow and rapier High Elf fighter?
You are welcome to force the players at your table to put their ASIs where you tell them to do so, but genetic determinism is a IRL philosophy that harm many people IRL so it has been removed from this Fun, Fantasy game. You've lost the argument and we're not going to repeat the arguments all over again there are thousands of posts on the topic for you to read if you want to understand why this change has come about.
There is almost no change mechanically to Elf or Tiefling, just a reorganization of how they are presented so could you please be more specific. A gut reaction of "This is different, so I don't like it." is normal an natural but it is not logical nor productive.
The +1 in every stat human was mainly good for multiclassing, it was also a good choice for new players. But the free Inspiration is roughly as good on the average adventuring day and is much more exciting to use.
Agreed the hybrid species rules are dumb, but there is no other simple solution to allowing every possible different race hybrid while also preventing optimizers from using them to make unbalanced broken species.
Species still have their proficiencies (including Elves having keen senses) so I don't know what you are complaining about here.
Lore can vary setting to setting which means it belong in setting / campaign books not in the basic rules of the game. E.g. a setting where Elves are alien invaders from another plane would be very different to one where Elves are the most ancient native species to a continent, or a setting where Orcs and Goblins are the result of a curse that disfigures other humanoids would be very different from one where they are just another type of humanoid.
I honestly have no idea what you're talking about with the bonded accuracy thing, but I've made characters with +2 to their main stat a lot and have done perfectly fine. It's REALLY not that bad...
Sure, they might be more powerful, but you're missing one of the main points. They took the 1,3,5 spell approach to them all, which feels bland. Also, with Wood Elves, it's not quite thematic. In lore, they were always less magical than other Elves, but were also stronger and had heightened senses. I will agree with you on the High Elf, but would like to point out that their original 5e features were meant to reflect both their innate magic AND how their brains are developed differently.
EDIT: The weapon proficiencies reflected a connection Elves had to their god, Corellon, who was pretty good with bows and swords. Instead of a proficiency in these weapons though, Elves should have gotten a +1 bonus if they decide to use these weapons, or some other feature that can help them if they decide not to.
Well, you might like one specific viewpoint on Humans, but the truth is that both should be reflected in how Humans are designed. And only one is being reflected. I will say that the more I think about it, the more I'm okay with the inspiration thing, BUT the whole race as designed should be an alternate version of the Variant (or the base Human while the +1 to everything is Variant), rather than being the only option.
In 2014, you'd have to use homebrew to be a Half-Gnome, so your comparison kinda sucks. Making other races seemingly playable doesn't justify ruining races that already exist. They could have at least come up with a hybrid template of some sort. Shite, that's what I've been doing myself.
If you care about these supposed issues with races in D&D, why have races with different capabilities at all? Every character should just be human at that point, right? Hell, why play D&D at all? The game has so many concepts that from your logic would have to reflect xenophobic ideas of some sort. You should just move on to another game... Unless you're a hypocrite. Please, stop trying to peddle this argument. It's inherently flawed and problematic in general, and it's honestly quite offensive to compare non-human races to human ethnicities...
Dude, every race's cap is 20 anyways. Just use point buy and get to 20 with your desired stat. Easy solve.
1. I don't even have to force them. They actually like it and are okay with it, because the idea of genetic determinism isn't the reason for fixed racial ASI's. It's the fact that these are literal non-human beings. It's like if someone were to play a literal bear. Wouldn't make much sense if you gave it non-bear capabilities.
2. Elves are quite different, actually. They took the 1,3,5 spell progression of Drow and slapped it on the other subraces. I mentioned it in an earlier reply, but this actually doesn't reflect the true capabilities of Wood Elves and it's debatable whether or not this is good for High Elves. Tieflings got the same treatment, which makes a bit more sense, but I'm just saying subraces shouldn't be different solely because of spells.
3. So why can't both Humans be options?
4. That's why you need a complex solution: templates.
5. I actually didn't see Keen Senses when I was reading it, but I easily could have missed it. Still, my point about changing from proficiencies to an extra bonus in said skill still stands.
6. Yes, but these races have specific lore because there's a specific multiverse these races belong to. That lore should be reflected.
None of this will happen. WotC is moving away from stats etc being race based to fit their multiverse strategy where races can vary in both culture and form between universes.
I know, because it allows them to put in less effort
Bounded accuracy is the core math of the game. The ACs and to-hit bonuses of every single monster are based on it. You shouldn't fall short of what the core math of the game assumes just because of the species you picked.
My point wasn't that the subraces are more powerful, it's that they didn't really lose much of anything. Those 1st and 2nd level spells came at the cost of a couple incidental and barely-used features. And anyways, I don't think that you'll see a high elf casting detect magic, a wood elf casting pass without trace, and a drow casting darkness and say "well they're all basically the same thing". Spells have a broad scope.
But why should both "versions" of humans be reflected? The reason variant human was variant in 5e was because feats were an optional rule.
The fact that you can't be a half-gnome in 2014 is my whole point. In 2014, there are exactly 2 officially approved mixes, despite the countless species. That's lame. I think I've decided I don't love the new rules, but I'd honestly rather have no concrete rules at all than have WotC slap me in the face and say "half-gnomes are impossible!" To me, that's an improvement, if not a earth-shattering one.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)