Invocations: Pact of the Blade, Life Drinker, Eldritch Smite, Thirsting Blade, Lessons of the First Ones (Fey Touched +CHA), Lessons of the First Ones (Skill Expert +CHA), Eldritch Mind
Spell: Spirit Shroud (5th level) (cast 3x per day) = +2d8 / attack (Con save is +3 with Adv)
My dude, Lessons of the 1st Ones does not allow feats with prerequisites, this includes all feats that grant +1 ability score increases, which all have a level requirement of at least 4.
Otherwise the whole class would be OP, you think the intent of the invocation was to give you the option of 10 +1 ASI, lol?
I am very confused by both of these builds. For the Paladin you can't get an ASI +PAM + GWM by level 11, and with Warlock you can't get either of the feats that are listed here with lessons of the first ones.
You can get strength to 17 at level 1, at 4 take PAM and then take 8 take GWM then at level 12 take another half feat.
With Lock, you can get cha to 18 and still get PAM. But Lessons of the first ones won't get the other items.
Also, you’d need STR 13 to use the Halberd without disadvantage.
They get the +1 strength from PAM in this version.
Ah ok: I missed that.
Honestly, I am going to have to run numbers because it looks like he is casting spirit shroud AND smiting with a total of 5 spell slots... I think.... Over I do not know how many fights or rounds.... no wait, 3 casts of spirit shroud per day + 4 casts of Eldritch smite with 5 spell slots total. I am very lost.
So just going to run numbers that I can figure out.
Going to assume PAM going to assume an 18 in Cha because that is achievable and going to assume all spell slots used on smite and obviously lifedrinker too.
Smite damage is 30d8 total with one rest and use of magical cunning which is an average of 135 damage over the entire adventuring day.
still do the halberd.
3 attacks at 1d10+1d6+4, Bonus action attack at 1d4+1d6+4, he said 25% chance of cleave so 1/4 1d10+1d6, and same with reaction attack, so 1/4 1d10+1d6+4. So without accounting for accuracy that is 54.5 average, account for accuracy assume 60% chance with a +5 makes this a 55% ignoring crit for now.... it is about 30.....
Now Pally same weapon level 11. has 3 3rd level spells 3 2nd, 4 first.... and one free use of a smite, but they all use a bonus action now so PAM doesn't work with smite..... So I am going to ignore smite for now. Otherwise probably better to use GWM get strength to 20 and use a great sword.... but just going to keep same weapon for now.
2 attacks 1d10+1d8+4, 1 bonus action attack 1d4+1d8+4, 25% chance of Cleave so 1/4 1d10+1d8, 25% chance reaction so 1/4 1d0+1d8+4, apply Great Weapon Fighting style around 51 * chance to hit same bonus so 55% 28+ GWM 4* chance to hit with 2 attacks which is about 80% so 28+3.2= 31.2
So about even it looks like. Course if we want to take advantage of Paladin smite, I think we just go GWM use a great sword with graze and take the strength to 20.
Total smite damage for the day...... 1 cast of blinding smite for 3d8 from your free cast.... 4d8*3 from your 3rd level slots, 3d8*3 for your second, and 2d8*4 for your first for a total of 32d8 or 144 total average damage.
Edit: I think it is the spirit shroud that is throwing things off in addition to lessons of the first one being off in use. He put it on both characters accounted for the loss of slots to the pally smites but didn't for the lock smites.
So if I apply the change to the lock smites.... that means he gets 2 smites or 54 damage from smites, again this is using the assumptions listed, 1 short rest and 3 casts of spirit shroud all other spells smite.
Apply spirit shroud to all attacks for warlock that is 2d8*4 + 1d8( this is the added damage from spirit shroud on cleave and reaction attack with 25% chance of getting them without accounting for accuracy .25*2d8+.25*2d8=1d8).... or 9d8=40.5*55%= around 22.3+30 from before 52.3 average per round.
Pally 1d8*3 + .5*1d8= 3.5d8= 15.75*.55=8.6 added to 31.2= 39.8
Total smite damage= 20d8 (adding in the forgotten 3d8 from the blinding smite free cast without a slot)..... for 90......
so 8.6 damage a round is being added from shroud with pally and smite is giving up 18 damage for the same slot. 3 rounds need to be done for it to exceed smites.
I am not convinced the issue isn't spirit shroud. Or that warlocks dealing this much damage is too much of an issue either. I don't know, presume spirit shroud didnt scale it would be 4d8+.5d8, or maybe they could just drop the damage on life drinker and instead give it just the healing part, but make the healing better..... I am ok with less invocation taxes. Because that would drop 4.5d6 off the damage or 8.6 off down to 43.7.... which seems respectable.
OF course this, doesn't really show how lopsided this is I think. Pally smites use the bonus action. So every turn a smite happens there is no bonus action attack from PAM..... I am assuming the the assumptions that it was 3 fights and the Warlock did spirit shroud +smite first fight, entreated patron for 1 minute, spirit shroud second fight. short rest spirit shroud and smite second fight.
Meanwhile Pally is Spirit shroud... smite smite smite First fight. Spirit Shroud, Smite Smite second fight, Spirit Shroud smite smite smite third fight, and not sure it is a good idea to use first level smites instead of bonus action attack.... going to check... 9 damage average damage guaranteed vs 1d4+2d8+4*55%, barely.... probably not.
This is weird. Pally using bonus action on smites and warlock not seems off. (also, of course, this is 1 level away from both getting their +5, but Pally will do so with another feat like charger, and 2 levels away from pally 4th level spell.)
God your stats are hard to read! Just put the total and explain it later. Regardless Kahbiel is correct that your Charisma needs to be lower than shown.
Also, the DPR issue is caused by Lifedrinker, not Thirsty Blade. Buffing the secondary effect and setting the prerequisite to 15th level would solve this min-maxing issue while allowing nonmin-maxed PoB characters to be competitive at 11th level.
Eldritch Smite should probably require a bonus action as well.
My dude, Lessons of the 1st Ones does not allow feats with prerequisites, this includes all feats that grant +1 ability score increases, which all have a level requirement of at least 4.
Otherwise the whole class would be OP, you think the intent of the invocation was to give you the option of 10 +1 ASI, lol?
Just because I must have missed it, where is there a change that +1 ASI half-feats will have a min lvl 4? I was trying to pinpoint that in the UAs, cause in the live version right now they don't, yeah?
My dude, Lessons of the 1st Ones does not allow feats with prerequisites, this includes all feats that grant +1 ability score increases, which all have a level requirement of at least 4.
Otherwise the whole class would be OP, you think the intent of the invocation was to give you the option of 10 +1 ASI, lol?
Just because I must have missed it, where is there a change that +1 ASI half-feats will have a min lvl 4? I was trying to pinpoint that in the UAs, cause in the live version right now they don't, yeah?
In the current live version the only way to get a feat pre level 4 is with human or custom lineage. In origins play test and expert playtest they stated people would get access to a few select feats that would become "first level feats" and that NO feats that provided a bump to a characteristic would be available as first level as they consider them 4th level or greater feats.
I think warlock and monk should do similar damage and beat the paladin outside of nova. the paladin has too many good features and little downsides.
A good Nova class should have bad consistent damage, like paladin actually already has. In the current design of d&d damage is much more important than healing and anything that contributes to damage or advantages the party in action economy is significantly more important than any feature that Paladin actually has.
Monk's issue isn't damage, at least not until tier 3 (where most campaigns barely touch). So paladin putting out a big spike is generally already balanced by their poor performance when not NOVAing. Monk will not be fixed by more damage, it'll become broken in the other direction and so their consistent damage will need to be nerfed. Monk's issue is that they have little else but damage and stunning strike.
This feeds back into Warlock's issue. They are extremely limited too anything outside of Eldritch Blast in battle (unless pact of blade) and lack utility outside of battle. Invocations help a lot. People complain a lot about Paladin but it's Paladin's choice when too nova that makes the class work, there is more too it then just attack. People notice spike, they ignore the subpar damage outside of the spike.
Admittedly Paladin also does slightly too well when parties long rest too often but under intended design their resources are too limited to smite every round, too limited too smite every other round, in fact. That does need redressing, but this is a bigger issue with long/short rests that really can only be fixed by getting rid of short rests entirely and redesigning features and resources too match. More work that I suspect we will see put into OneD&D.
What does hit monk is likely also a lack of good feat choices too... PAM is still overpowered but this is a PAM issue, not a paladin issue.
Lifedrinker applies per hit...I though they understood when many other features are limited to once per turn. When everyone look at PAM and no one thinks is interesting wearing a shield, you know there is an issue there. All that multi-attack stuff and cumulative damages must be balanced so all the options to be interesting.
Fixed and Clarified builds. Divine Smite is surprisingly bad when it costs a BA vs PAM, it does mean a sword-and-board paladin can keep up with PAM paladin pretty well, but if you're a Paladin with PAM your spellslots are kind of pointless in terms of combat except for Spirit Shroud or maybe Hex if you dip Warlock.
At level 11:
Assumptions : 1 SR per adventuring day, 3 significant combats per day (i.e. last more than 1 round)
Bladelock:
ASIs 12+1(PAM), 14, 15+1, 8, 8, 14+2+2(ASI)
AC = 17, hp = 91
Spell Slots : 3x 5th level spells per SR + 1x 5th level spell from Magical Cunning -> 3 used for Spirit Shroud
+ Smite damage = 4x1st level + 3x2nd level per day = 17d8 per day = 76.5 (Assuming Paladin Smite goes back to not needing a BA to match warlock)
Alternatively : if Smiting costs a BA then 1st level slots are a net negative expected damage since your BA attack with Improved DS + SS = 11.6 expected DPR. A 2nd level slot nets you a 2 damage increase over the expected DPR of your BA attack, thus Smite damage bonus = 6 per day
Note: This is all without considering magical weapons (which gets multiplied an additional time for warlock vs paladin), and doesn't factor in the free Prone effect on Eldritch Smite which would give them Adv on 2 subsequent attacks for the rounds it is used.
I definitely don't think Thirsting Blade should allow 3 attacks at later levels. If classes like Ranger, Paladin & Barbarian cap out at two attacks, why should the Bladelock get three?
Fixed and Clarified builds. Divine Smite is surprisingly bad when it costs a BA vs PAM, it does mean a sword-and-board paladin can keep up with PAM paladin pretty well, but if you're a Paladin with PAM your spellslots are kind of pointless in terms of combat except for Spirit Shroud or maybe Hex if you dip Warlock.
This is actually a huge issue in the UA6 design of paladin and why BA Smite is just not workable. PAM beats Smite at most levels.
Warlock getting a 3rd attack is insane, maybe at level 17 it would be okay, not at 11, that should be life drinker. But then most Martians should be getting more of a damage bump in tier 4 and some still need more in tier 3.
In the current live version the only way to get a feat pre level 4 is with human or custom lineage. In origins play test and expert playtest they stated people would get access to a few select feats that would become "first level feats" and that NO feats that provided a bump to a characteristic would be available as first level as they consider them 4th level or greater feats.
Thank you! If true, that certainly does negate some of my earlier fears of the invocation being ludicrously overpowered. I do think that Blade-lock probably still trumps fighter, sadly, even though I do like the stuff I'm seeing for fighter.
I don't think warlock getting a third attack is insane, I think the insanity is that fighter still isn't the best at fighting, even after the changes. And they still don't have any real utility to round them out like the other classes. Even barbarian has far more utility in this playtest.
I am now on the same page as Agile, I forgot to take into account this is level 11 with the spell slot bump for Warlock as well. Beyond that, ya I think the issue is life drinker, eldritch smite and spirit shroud more than the third attack. However, I also admit that if you think about it caster warlocks need to take agonizing blast + Pact of the Tome + multiple other invocations to keep up with casting so maybe it isn't bad that blade locks need to do the same. The heavy weapon restriction lift goes a long way. Also maybe the issue is PAM.
PAM is a problem in general IMO, I love the reaction attack as both thematic to how polearms were historically used and powerwise it is a comparable bump to other feats, but the BA attack puts it a step above everything else which is bad. But in this case both the Paladin and Warlock are benefiting from it, so it alone won't really solve the power disparity with Warlock being a better martial and a better spellcaster than any half caster.
The third attack is absolutely where the gap in power is coming from here, and to be honest I consider it utterly ridiculous for a Warlock to get more weapon attacks than a Freaking Barbarian! If they are going to give warlock a 3rd attack at 11, they must give that 3rd attack to Paladin, Ranger, Barbarian, and Monk as well. (and thus Fighter will need a new additional class feature to keep up with everyone else also getting a 3rd attack like they do).
At level 11:
Bladelock:
ASIs 12, 14, 15+1, 8, 8, 14+2+2(ASI) + 1(Fey Touched) + 1(Skill Expert)
AC = 17, hp = 91
Assumptions : 1 SR per adventuring day
ASIs/Feats: Lightly Armoured (1st level), PAM (4th level), +2 CHA (8th)
Invocations: Pact of the Blade, Life Drinker, Eldritch Smite, Thirsting Blade, Lessons of the First Ones (Fey Touched +CHA), Lessons of the First Ones (Skill Expert +CHA), Eldritch Mind
Spell: Spirit Shroud (5th level) (cast 3x per day) = +2d8 / attack (Con save is +3 with Adv)
Weapon of Choice: Halberd (1d10)
Attacks per Round = 3 (Thirsting Blade - Action) + 1 (PAM - BA) + 1 * 0.25 (Cleave - free action) + 1 *0.25 (PAM - Reaction) = DPR = 65
+ Smite damage = 2 slots per SR = 24d8 per day = 108
Paladin
ASIs 15+1+2+1+1, 10, 14, 8, 8, 14+2
AC=18+1 (plate), HP = 92
ASI/Feats : ASI (STR+2), PAM, GWM
Weapon of Choice: Halberd (1d10), FS = Defense
Spell: Spirit Shroud (3rd level) (cast 3x per day) = +1d8 / attack (Con save is +5 no Adv)
Channel Divinity : Devotion +3 to attack rolls every combat
Radiant Strikes : + 1d8 each attack
Attacks per Round = 2 (Action) + 1 (PAM - BA) + 1 * 0.25 (Cleave - free action) + 1 *0.25 (PAM - Reaction) + GWM bonus damage : 4 = DPR = 56.2
+ Smite damage = 4x1st level + 3x2nd level per day = 17d8 per day = 76.5
Bladelock is handily deals more damage than the Paladin even when using an identical playstyle, they should not get a 3rd attack at level 11.
My dude, Lessons of the 1st Ones does not allow feats with prerequisites, this includes all feats that grant +1 ability score increases, which all have a level requirement of at least 4.
Otherwise the whole class would be OP, you think the intent of the invocation was to give you the option of 10 +1 ASI, lol?
Also, you’d need STR 13 to use the Halberd without disadvantage.
I am very confused by both of these builds. For the Paladin you can't get an ASI +PAM + GWM by level 11, and with Warlock you can't get either of the feats that are listed here with lessons of the first ones.
You can get strength to 17 at level 1, at 4 take PAM and then take 8 take GWM then at level 12 take another half feat.
With Lock, you can get cha to 18 and still get PAM. But Lessons of the first ones won't get the other items.
They get the +1 strength from PAM in this version.
Ah ok: I missed that.
Honestly, I am going to have to run numbers because it looks like he is casting spirit shroud AND smiting with a total of 5 spell slots... I think.... Over I do not know how many fights or rounds.... no wait, 3 casts of spirit shroud per day + 4 casts of Eldritch smite with 5 spell slots total. I am very lost.
So just going to run numbers that I can figure out.
Going to assume PAM going to assume an 18 in Cha because that is achievable and going to assume all spell slots used on smite and obviously lifedrinker too.
Smite damage is 30d8 total with one rest and use of magical cunning which is an average of 135 damage over the entire adventuring day.
still do the halberd.
3 attacks at 1d10+1d6+4, Bonus action attack at 1d4+1d6+4, he said 25% chance of cleave so 1/4 1d10+1d6, and same with reaction attack, so 1/4 1d10+1d6+4. So without accounting for accuracy that is 54.5 average, account for accuracy assume 60% chance with a +5 makes this a 55% ignoring crit for now.... it is about 30.....
Now Pally same weapon level 11. has 3 3rd level spells 3 2nd, 4 first.... and one free use of a smite, but they all use a bonus action now so PAM doesn't work with smite..... So I am going to ignore smite for now. Otherwise probably better to use GWM get strength to 20 and use a great sword.... but just going to keep same weapon for now.
2 attacks 1d10+1d8+4, 1 bonus action attack 1d4+1d8+4, 25% chance of Cleave so 1/4 1d10+1d8, 25% chance reaction so 1/4 1d0+1d8+4, apply Great Weapon Fighting style around 51 * chance to hit same bonus so 55% 28+ GWM 4* chance to hit with 2 attacks which is about 80% so 28+3.2= 31.2
So about even it looks like. Course if we want to take advantage of Paladin smite, I think we just go GWM use a great sword with graze and take the strength to 20.
Total smite damage for the day...... 1 cast of blinding smite for 3d8 from your free cast.... 4d8*3 from your 3rd level slots, 3d8*3 for your second, and 2d8*4 for your first for a total of 32d8 or 144 total average damage.
Edit: I think it is the spirit shroud that is throwing things off in addition to lessons of the first one being off in use. He put it on both characters accounted for the loss of slots to the pally smites but didn't for the lock smites.
So if I apply the change to the lock smites.... that means he gets 2 smites or 54 damage from smites, again this is using the assumptions listed, 1 short rest and 3 casts of spirit shroud all other spells smite.
Apply spirit shroud to all attacks for warlock that is 2d8*4 + 1d8( this is the added damage from spirit shroud on cleave and reaction attack with 25% chance of getting them without accounting for accuracy .25*2d8+.25*2d8=1d8).... or 9d8=40.5*55%= around 22.3+30 from before 52.3 average per round.
Pally 1d8*3 + .5*1d8= 3.5d8= 15.75*.55=8.6 added to 31.2= 39.8
Total smite damage= 20d8 (adding in the forgotten 3d8 from the blinding smite free cast without a slot)..... for 90......
so 8.6 damage a round is being added from shroud with pally and smite is giving up 18 damage for the same slot. 3 rounds need to be done for it to exceed smites.
I am not convinced the issue isn't spirit shroud. Or that warlocks dealing this much damage is too much of an issue either. I don't know, presume spirit shroud didnt scale it would be 4d8+.5d8, or maybe they could just drop the damage on life drinker and instead give it just the healing part, but make the healing better..... I am ok with less invocation taxes. Because that would drop 4.5d6 off the damage or 8.6 off down to 43.7.... which seems respectable.
OF course this, doesn't really show how lopsided this is I think. Pally smites use the bonus action. So every turn a smite happens there is no bonus action attack from PAM..... I am assuming the the assumptions that it was 3 fights and the Warlock did spirit shroud +smite first fight, entreated patron for 1 minute, spirit shroud second fight. short rest spirit shroud and smite second fight.
Meanwhile Pally is Spirit shroud... smite smite smite First fight. Spirit Shroud, Smite Smite second fight, Spirit Shroud smite smite smite third fight, and not sure it is a good idea to use first level smites instead of bonus action attack.... going to check... 9 damage average damage guaranteed vs 1d4+2d8+4*55%, barely.... probably not.
This is weird. Pally using bonus action on smites and warlock not seems off. (also, of course, this is 1 level away from both getting their +5, but Pally will do so with another feat like charger, and 2 levels away from pally 4th level spell.)
God your stats are hard to read! Just put the total and explain it later. Regardless Kahbiel is correct that your Charisma needs to be lower than shown.
Also, the DPR issue is caused by Lifedrinker, not Thirsty Blade. Buffing the secondary effect and setting the prerequisite to 15th level would solve this min-maxing issue while allowing nonmin-maxed PoB characters to be competitive at 11th level.
Eldritch Smite should probably require a bonus action as well.
I think warlock and monk should do similar damage and beat the paladin outside of nova. the paladin has too many good features and little downsides.
Just because I must have missed it, where is there a change that +1 ASI half-feats will have a min lvl 4? I was trying to pinpoint that in the UAs, cause in the live version right now they don't, yeah?
In the current live version the only way to get a feat pre level 4 is with human or custom lineage. In origins play test and expert playtest they stated people would get access to a few select feats that would become "first level feats" and that NO feats that provided a bump to a characteristic would be available as first level as they consider them 4th level or greater feats.
A good Nova class should have bad consistent damage, like paladin actually already has. In the current design of d&d damage is much more important than healing and anything that contributes to damage or advantages the party in action economy is significantly more important than any feature that Paladin actually has.
Monk's issue isn't damage, at least not until tier 3 (where most campaigns barely touch). So paladin putting out a big spike is generally already balanced by their poor performance when not NOVAing. Monk will not be fixed by more damage, it'll become broken in the other direction and so their consistent damage will need to be nerfed. Monk's issue is that they have little else but damage and stunning strike.
This feeds back into Warlock's issue. They are extremely limited too anything outside of Eldritch Blast in battle (unless pact of blade) and lack utility outside of battle. Invocations help a lot. People complain a lot about Paladin but it's Paladin's choice when too nova that makes the class work, there is more too it then just attack. People notice spike, they ignore the subpar damage outside of the spike.
Admittedly Paladin also does slightly too well when parties long rest too often but under intended design their resources are too limited to smite every round, too limited too smite every other round, in fact. That does need redressing, but this is a bigger issue with long/short rests that really can only be fixed by getting rid of short rests entirely and redesigning features and resources too match. More work that I suspect we will see put into OneD&D.
What does hit monk is likely also a lack of good feat choices too... PAM is still overpowered but this is a PAM issue, not a paladin issue.
Lifedrinker applies per hit...I though they understood when many other features are limited to once per turn. When everyone look at PAM and no one thinks is interesting wearing a shield, you know there is an issue there. All that multi-attack stuff and cumulative damages must be balanced so all the options to be interesting.
Fixed and Clarified builds. Divine Smite is surprisingly bad when it costs a BA vs PAM, it does mean a sword-and-board paladin can keep up with PAM paladin pretty well, but if you're a Paladin with PAM your spellslots are kind of pointless in terms of combat except for Spirit Shroud or maybe Hex if you dip Warlock.
At level 11:
Assumptions : 1 SR per adventuring day, 3 significant combats per day (i.e. last more than 1 round)
Bladelock:
ASIs 12+1(PAM), 14, 15+1, 8, 8, 14+2+2(ASI)
AC = 17, hp = 91
Spell Slots : 3x 5th level spells per SR + 1x 5th level spell from Magical Cunning -> 3 used for Spirit Shroud
Attacking Stat : CHA -> 60% chance to hit
ASIs/Feats: Lightly Armoured (1st level), PAM (4th level), +2 CHA (8th)
Invocations: Pact of the Blade, Life Drinker, Eldritch Smite, Thirsting Blade, Eldritch Mind, Agonizing Blast, Mask of Many Faces
Spell: Spirit Shroud (5th level) (cast 3x per day) = +2d8 / attack (Con save is +3 with Adv)
Weapon of Choice: Halberd (1d10)
Attacks per Round = 3 (Thirsting Blade - Action) + 1 (PAM - BA) + 1 * 0.25 (Cleave - free action) + 1 *0.25 (PAM - Reaction) = DPR = 56.5
+ Smite damage = 2 slots per SR = 24d8 per day = 108
Paladin
ASIs 15+1+2+1, 10, 14, 8, 8, 14+2
AC=18+1 (plate), HP = 92
ASI/Feats : ASI (4th, STR+2), PAM (8th)
Spell Slots : 4x 1st, 3x 2nd, 3x 3rd -> All 3x 3rd level slots used for Spirit Shroud
Channel Divinity : Devotion +3 to attack rolls every combat (costs 1 extra BA per combat)
Spell: Spirit Shroud (3rd level) (cast 3x per day) = +1d8 / attack (Con save is +5 no Adv)
Weapon of Choice: Halberd (1d10), FS = Defense
Radiant Strikes : + 1d8 each attack
Attacks per Round = 2 (Action) + 1 (PAM - BA) + 1 * 0.25 (Cleave - free action) + 1 *0.25 (PAM - Reaction) = DPR = 45.5
+ Smite damage = 4x1st level + 3x2nd level per day = 17d8 per day = 76.5 (Assuming Paladin Smite goes back to not needing a BA to match warlock)
Alternatively : if Smiting costs a BA then 1st level slots are a net negative expected damage since your BA attack with Improved DS + SS = 11.6 expected DPR. A 2nd level slot nets you a 2 damage increase over the expected DPR of your BA attack, thus Smite damage bonus = 6 per day
Note: This is all without considering magical weapons (which gets multiplied an additional time for warlock vs paladin), and doesn't factor in the free Prone effect on Eldritch Smite which would give them Adv on 2 subsequent attacks for the rounds it is used.
I definitely don't think Thirsting Blade should allow 3 attacks at later levels. If classes like Ranger, Paladin & Barbarian cap out at two attacks, why should the Bladelock get three?
This is actually a huge issue in the UA6 design of paladin and why BA Smite is just not workable. PAM beats Smite at most levels.
Warlock getting a 3rd attack is insane, maybe at level 17 it would be okay, not at 11, that should be life drinker. But then most Martians should be getting more of a damage bump in tier 4 and some still need more in tier 3.
Thank you! If true, that certainly does negate some of my earlier fears of the invocation being ludicrously overpowered. I do think that Blade-lock probably still trumps fighter, sadly, even though I do like the stuff I'm seeing for fighter.
I don't think warlock getting a third attack is insane, I think the insanity is that fighter still isn't the best at fighting, even after the changes. And they still don't have any real utility to round them out like the other classes. Even barbarian has far more utility in this playtest.
I am now on the same page as Agile, I forgot to take into account this is level 11 with the spell slot bump for Warlock as well. Beyond that, ya I think the issue is life drinker, eldritch smite and spirit shroud more than the third attack. However, I also admit that if you think about it caster warlocks need to take agonizing blast + Pact of the Tome + multiple other invocations to keep up with casting so maybe it isn't bad that blade locks need to do the same. The heavy weapon restriction lift goes a long way. Also maybe the issue is PAM.
PAM is a problem in general IMO, I love the reaction attack as both thematic to how polearms were historically used and powerwise it is a comparable bump to other feats, but the BA attack puts it a step above everything else which is bad. But in this case both the Paladin and Warlock are benefiting from it, so it alone won't really solve the power disparity with Warlock being a better martial and a better spellcaster than any half caster.
The third attack is absolutely where the gap in power is coming from here, and to be honest I consider it utterly ridiculous for a Warlock to get more weapon attacks than a Freaking Barbarian! If they are going to give warlock a 3rd attack at 11, they must give that 3rd attack to Paladin, Ranger, Barbarian, and Monk as well. (and thus Fighter will need a new additional class feature to keep up with everyone else also getting a 3rd attack like they do).
Compared to other classes the third attack might be to much. But just comparing spellcaster and melee warlock it seems ok.
For me melee never felt that the risk reward was ok.