so, with the survey now open, i thought it would be a good idea to make sure everyone's on the same page about one thing: UA8 Friends is better than 2014 Friends. or maybe you don't think so? well, let's discuss it here. this is likely our only chance to tell the devs they're headed in the right direction or to suggest a change. after this it's either going to be locked in as the new version or bumped back to the old near-useless version.
so, what do you have to say? Thanks!
EDIT: when i wrote the above i'd forgotten that the 2024 UA 'Influence [Action]' changed slightly from the 2014 DMG 'Conversation Reaction Chart'. unless that part didn't change at all, since the PHB never had a chart and we haven't playtested the DMG yet. anyway, paraphrasing from UA7 Glossary, Influence [Action]:friendly NPCs might not require a check to render aid, indifferent NPCs do need that check, and hostile NPCs actively want to see you fail. requests are now usuallyDC 15 (medium task) against your chosen CHA skill. there's also the chance that the player's interactions in the form of roleplay speech might align with the creature's interests to bump it temporarily up one rank on the mood meter. so, yelling "alligators! flee!" to the hostile swamp guard might briefly align their specific interests in a way that doesn't make the check easier but might make it possible as they become indifferent to you for a short time. this somewhat explains why the UA8 Friends cantrip doesn't bother lingering on whether the target becomes friendly: if your roll beats 15, then mother-may-i maybe. so, anyway, that's the context.
...hmm, i should have added a suggestion for an "Animal Indifference" cantrip. not friendship, though. there's already a first-level spell for that. yeah, Animal Friendship isn't all that popular since it doesn't allow you to receive/convey information, the animals don't usually just up and become another fighter for your cause, it costs a flippin' spell slot, etc. but a nice cantrip just to say "i'm not here to eat you" might be just the thing some people have been hoping for. although, honestly... why's that not already part of druidcraft??
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unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
A few of your poll options up there raised some considerations that I hadn't even, uh, considered. Like, the scaling of multiple targets? I wish I had added that to my survey!
Mostly, I was just okay with it and happy for a social utility cantrip that didn't carry the weight of future grievances. Also, the M component just tickles me.
...hmm, i should have added a suggestion for an "Animal Indifference" cantrip. not friendship, though. there's already a first-level spell for that. yeah, Animal Friendship isn't all that popular since it doesn't allow you to receive/convey information, the animals don't usually just up and become another fighter for your cause, it costs a flippin' spell slot, etc. but a nice cantrip just to say "i'm not here to eat you" might be just the thing some people have been hoping for. although, honestly... why's that not already part of druidcraft??
Why do we need spells to do basic tasks? You want to make an animal indifferent toss it some food. You want to make a friend, then talk to them and make a friend. What ever happened to creative thinking & RP?
A few of your poll options up there raised some considerations that I hadn't even, uh, considered. Like, the scaling of multiple targets? I wish I had added that to my survey!
Mostly, I was just okay with it and happy for a social utility cantrip that didn't carry the weight of future grievances. Also, the M component just tickles me.
/me applying mascara "Heeey, buddy!"
howdy, halcy. yeah, others had mentioned makeup. doesn't bother me any more than any other bat guano products in ye olde components sack, but i should have listed it. (yes, bat guano in modern cosmetics is apparently an urban legend, but whaaat if it waaasn't! wooo~!)
personally, i feel like Friends gets the cosmetics but some less-friendly spell like a "Beguile" cantrip would be fine with just a shout. "Hey! suck in that gut! ...and definitely don't follow me." if anything, Friends should be affected by the quantity and skill of makeup applied. something like a sliding scale from friendly back to indifferent over so many rounds after concentration drops, more rounds for more made-up effort. not an easy thing to propose for a simple cantrip, but it would make more sense than getting a similar effect for applying mascara to your eyelashes or to your cheeks. "meow, new friend."
...hmm, i should have added a suggestion for an "Animal Indifference" cantrip. not friendship, though. there's already a first-level spell for that. yeah, Animal Friendship isn't all that popular since it doesn't allow you to receive/convey information, the animals don't usually just up and become another fighter for your cause, it costs a flippin' spell slot, etc. but a nice cantrip just to say "i'm not here to eat you" might be just the thing some people have been hoping for. although, honestly... why's that not already part of druidcraft??
Why do we need spells to do basic tasks? You want to make an animal indifferent toss it some food. You want to make a friend, then talk to them and make a friend. What ever happened to creative thinking & RP?
because, for instance, a druid might prefer to maintain the illusion of being a stinky, mossy disney princess.
...and if it were only for that, i think we'd have it already. a prestidigitation for people like my wife who must pet every animal. however, i think pretty quickly it'd get used for, oh, i dunno, silencing guard dogs. and that really should be a 'throw the meat and roll the dice' situation. sigh.
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unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
a 'real' Friends spell would include both target and caster sharing charm as a cantrip downside
After hearing that its now in my world like that. Thanks for the great idea. *yoink
i'd include some verbiage that the caster has initiative in the conversation since they are the one who knows that they're charmed. but that doesn't stop them from considering requests the target might pose right back.
"here's that manacle key you say you lost, hero. but first: you're not in a hurry, are you? can I tempt you with some tea?"
I'm okay with it only working on Humanoids. I little ways for an NPC's race to matter even at low levels. And the DM can just say "there doesn't seem to be an effect" keeping the PC in the dark about whether the target is non-humanoid, simply made their save, or has a different source of charm immunity.
I don't think the Friendly/Neutral/Hostile thing is in the game, is it? No one used the old rules, and we have different Influence checks now.
oh yep, it's a table in the dmg. a friendly npc will take a minor risk to help you (DC 10) or maybe a significant sacrifice (DC 20). whereas a hostile character will do as asked but only if it requires zero risk and no sacrifice (DC 20). so, if you get CHA advantage against charmed individuals... what's the goal? roll twice for what outcome? it really really matters when the question is whether the charmed guard will step aside for a new friend or if that request is too much from a stranger.
I have a feeling the power of this Friends is in the charm, not causing actual 'friendly' mood. which means the name is wrong.
edit: ahh, found it again in UA2, page 34 under Influence (Action). looks about the same but missing '0 DC' eventualities.
edit2: ugh. research is slow going away from the computer. UA3 removes the table and basically sets a standard DC 15. although, it does open the window to the Influence Action nudging someone from one mood to another adjacent mood. seems reasonable to expect that this spell has a similar chance to do the same, at the dm's discretion. huh.
The influence action is also in UA7, and has the same hostile/indifferent/friendly categories.
The new Friends cantrip isn't much different from the old one
The old one gave advantage on charisma checks, the new one applies charmed, which... gives advantage on charisma checks.
The old one had no save but caused automatic hostility, the new one has a save but does not cause automatic hostility (though with verbal and material components, the target might get irritated anyway).
Changing the target's attitude to Friendly is what Charm Person is for.
The influence action is also in UA7, and has the same hostile/indifferent/friendly categories.
yeah, i went back and edited the first post at the top this morning. i've been ignoring the glossary except for the newest changes every time. my bad. :D
The new Friends cantrip isn't much different from the old one
The old one gave advantage on charisma checks, the new one applies charmed, which... gives advantage on charisma checks.
The old one had no save but caused automatic hostility, the new one has a save but does not cause automatic hostility (though with verbal and material components, the target might get irritated anyway).
Changing the target's attitude to Friendly is what Charm Person is for.
regarding UA8 Friends, it just seems like it sets up an odd situation where a hostile target might be charmed but still not convinced to do what you say. so they won't grapple you (can't attack) but they also won't allow you to exit if exiting is what you desire. that's not a big deal as long as the spell verbiage is clear that 'charmed' doesn't mean 'friendly' despite the name of the spell being Friends. misleading.
i'm certainly fine with a leveled spell charm person being the way to bounce someone from hostile to friendly. however, if they don't provide verbiage in UA8 Friends spell, then it's going to be wide open for multiple interpretations. leaving it open to dm's fiat was fine in 5e, but i thought we were getting rid of mother-may-i and ambiguity in revised.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
My take: get rid of the spell completely. There shouldn't be a cantrip in the game that does something better or more easily than the equivalent skill check would. If you want to sweet talk someone without spending spell slots roll a persuasion check.
i'm certainly fine with a leveled spell charm person being the way to bounce someone from hostile to friendly. however, if they don't provide verbiage in UA8 Friends spell, then it's going to be wide open for multiple interpretations. leaving it open to dm's fiat was fine in 5e, but i thought we were getting rid of mother-may-i and ambiguity in revised.
There is nothing unclear about the UA8 friends. It applies the charmed condition, which is well defined, and has no other effects.
My take: get rid of the spell completely. There shouldn't be a cantrip in the game that does something better or more easily than the equivalent skill check would. If you want to sweet talk someone without spending spell slots roll a persuasion check.
the charm requires a save and concentration and lasts only 10 rounds from within 10ft and can't be repeated that day. then you get advantage on persuasion, but you still roll. what skill check does it replace? as pantagruel666 says, the spell inflicts charmed and as such it still takes an Influence Action to improve mood or persuade. Friends doesn't make friends, but I'd agree if you didn't think that was a forgone conclusion.
I could respect a request for a failed save revealing the charm or even a revealed charm at the end again (but after a grace period, for preference). but, scrap it seems extreme. if a dm is bothered by it, they can discuss enchantment potentially being an evil act in their world's session zero.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
My take: get rid of the spell completely. There shouldn't be a cantrip in the game that does something better or more easily than the equivalent skill check would. If you want to sweet talk someone without spending spell slots roll a persuasion check.
Hmm. What if we could jettison the Guidance cantrip, and replace it with multiple cantrips that covered different skills, instead of having one cantrip that added to everything? Then, Friends could be the one that adds +1d4 to persuasion checks.
Hmm. What if we could jettison the Guidance cantrip, and replace it with multiple cantrips that covered different skills, instead of having one cantrip that added to everything? Then, Friends could be the one that adds +1d4 to persuasion checks.
Jettisoning guidance would be a positive for the game but I think it's too well established for that to happen.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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so, with the survey now open, i thought it would be a good idea to make sure everyone's on the same page about one thing: UA8 Friends is better than 2014 Friends. or maybe you don't think so? well, let's discuss it here. this is likely our only chance to tell the devs they're headed in the right direction or to suggest a change. after this it's either going to be locked in as the new version or bumped back to the old near-useless version.
so, what do you have to say? Thanks!
EDIT: when i wrote the above i'd forgotten that the 2024 UA 'Influence [Action]' changed slightly from the 2014 DMG 'Conversation Reaction Chart'. unless that part didn't change at all, since the PHB never had a chart and we haven't playtested the DMG yet. anyway, paraphrasing from UA7 Glossary, Influence [Action]: friendly NPCs might not require a check to render aid, indifferent NPCs do need that check, and hostile NPCs actively want to see you fail. requests are now usually DC 15 (medium task) against your chosen CHA skill. there's also the chance that the player's interactions in the form of roleplay speech might align with the creature's interests to bump it temporarily up one rank on the mood meter. so, yelling "alligators! flee!" to the hostile swamp guard might briefly align their specific interests in a way that doesn't make the check easier but might make it possible as they become indifferent to you for a short time. this somewhat explains why the UA8 Friends cantrip doesn't bother lingering on whether the target becomes friendly: if your roll beats 15, then mother-may-i maybe. so, anyway, that's the context.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
...hmm, i should have added a suggestion for an "Animal Indifference" cantrip. not friendship, though. there's already a first-level spell for that. yeah, Animal Friendship isn't all that popular since it doesn't allow you to receive/convey information, the animals don't usually just up and become another fighter for your cause, it costs a flippin' spell slot, etc. but a nice cantrip just to say "i'm not here to eat you" might be just the thing some people have been hoping for. although, honestly... why's that not already part of druidcraft??
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Hey Rumsey!
A few of your poll options up there raised some considerations that I hadn't even, uh, considered. Like, the scaling of multiple targets? I wish I had added that to my survey!
Mostly, I was just okay with it and happy for a social utility cantrip that didn't carry the weight of future grievances. Also, the M component just tickles me.
/me applying mascara
"Heeey, buddy!"
Why do we need spells to do basic tasks? You want to make an animal indifferent toss it some food. You want to make a friend, then talk to them and make a friend. What ever happened to creative thinking & RP?
a 'real' Friends spell would include both target and caster sharing charm as a cantrip downside
After hearing that its now in my world like that. Thanks for the great idea. *yoink
I didn’t see what you did there.
howdy, halcy. yeah, others had mentioned makeup. doesn't bother me any more than any other bat guano products in ye olde components sack, but i should have listed it. (yes, bat guano in modern cosmetics is apparently an urban legend, but whaaat if it waaasn't! wooo~!)
personally, i feel like Friends gets the cosmetics but some less-friendly spell like a "Beguile" cantrip would be fine with just a shout. "Hey! suck in that gut! ...and definitely don't follow me." if anything, Friends should be affected by the quantity and skill of makeup applied. something like a sliding scale from friendly back to indifferent over so many rounds after concentration drops, more rounds for more made-up effort. not an easy thing to propose for a simple cantrip, but it would make more sense than getting a similar effect for applying mascara to your eyelashes or to your cheeks. "meow, new friend."
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
because, for instance, a druid might prefer to maintain the illusion of being a stinky, mossy disney princess.
...and if it were only for that, i think we'd have it already. a prestidigitation for people like my wife who must pet every animal. however, i think pretty quickly it'd get used for, oh, i dunno, silencing guard dogs. and that really should be a 'throw the meat and roll the dice' situation. sigh.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
i'd include some verbiage that the caster has initiative in the conversation since they are the one who knows that they're charmed. but that doesn't stop them from considering requests the target might pose right back.
"here's that manacle key you say you lost, hero. but first: you're not in a hurry, are you? can I tempt you with some tea?"
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
1m is too short for a social encounter. It should be 5 or 10 Minutes imo.
Otherwise, call it "Fast Friends" for flavor.
I believe there’s already a spell called Fast Friends. It’s a 3rd level spell from Acquisition’s Incorporated.
I'm okay with it only working on Humanoids. I little ways for an NPC's race to matter even at low levels. And the DM can just say "there doesn't seem to be an effect" keeping the PC in the dark about whether the target is non-humanoid, simply made their save, or has a different source of charm immunity.
I don't think the Friendly/Neutral/Hostile thing is in the game, is it? No one used the old rules, and we have different Influence checks now.
oh yep, it's a table in the dmg. a friendly npc will take a minor risk to help you (DC 10) or maybe a significant sacrifice (DC 20). whereas a hostile character will do as asked but only if it requires zero risk and no sacrifice (DC 20). so, if you get CHA advantage against charmed individuals... what's the goal? roll twice for what outcome? it really really matters when the question is whether the charmed guard will step aside for a new friend or if that request is too much from a stranger.
I have a feeling the power of this Friends is in the charm, not causing actual 'friendly' mood. which means the name is wrong.
edit: ahh, found it again in UA2, page 34 under Influence (Action). looks about the same but missing '0 DC' eventualities.
edit2: ugh. research is slow going away from the computer. UA3 removes the table and basically sets a standard DC 15. although, it does open the window to the Influence Action nudging someone from one mood to another adjacent mood. seems reasonable to expect that this spell has a similar chance to do the same, at the dm's discretion. huh.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
The influence action is also in UA7, and has the same hostile/indifferent/friendly categories.
The new Friends cantrip isn't much different from the old one
Changing the target's attitude to Friendly is what Charm Person is for.
yeah, i went back and edited the first post at the top this morning. i've been ignoring the glossary except for the newest changes every time. my bad. :D
regarding UA8 Friends, it just seems like it sets up an odd situation where a hostile target might be charmed but still not convinced to do what you say. so they won't grapple you (can't attack) but they also won't allow you to exit if exiting is what you desire. that's not a big deal as long as the spell verbiage is clear that 'charmed' doesn't mean 'friendly' despite the name of the spell being Friends. misleading.
i'm certainly fine with a leveled spell charm person being the way to bounce someone from hostile to friendly. however, if they don't provide verbiage in UA8 Friends spell, then it's going to be wide open for multiple interpretations. leaving it open to dm's fiat was fine in 5e, but i thought we were getting rid of mother-may-i and ambiguity in revised.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
My take: get rid of the spell completely. There shouldn't be a cantrip in the game that does something better or more easily than the equivalent skill check would. If you want to sweet talk someone without spending spell slots roll a persuasion check.
There is nothing unclear about the UA8 friends. It applies the charmed condition, which is well defined, and has no other effects.
the charm requires a save and concentration and lasts only 10 rounds from within 10ft and can't be repeated that day. then you get advantage on persuasion, but you still roll. what skill check does it replace? as pantagruel666 says, the spell inflicts charmed and as such it still takes an Influence Action to improve mood or persuade. Friends doesn't make friends, but I'd agree if you didn't think that was a forgone conclusion.
I could respect a request for a failed save revealing the charm or even a revealed charm at the end again (but after a grace period, for preference). but, scrap it seems extreme. if a dm is bothered by it, they can discuss enchantment potentially being an evil act in their world's session zero.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Hmm. What if we could jettison the Guidance cantrip, and replace it with multiple cantrips that covered different skills, instead of having one cantrip that added to everything? Then, Friends could be the one that adds +1d4 to persuasion checks.
Jettisoning guidance would be a positive for the game but I think it's too well established for that to happen.