Imo, the HP regain during short and long rest is too much. Players should rely on Druids and Clerics to do that, and if they dont have one then DM needs to supplement it some how.
Who recovers potentially 100 HPs from basic wound care? I get the disbelieving part of the game, but something things are just common sense....like no one heals 100 HPs from basic wound care.
You're right. No one heals 100 HP from basic wound care. Because nobody heals any HP from basic wound care. Because nobody has HP. Because HP is an abstraction for the purposes of a game. Saying that people don't recover 100 HP from basic wound care is completely nonsensical because it implies that an amount of HP has an equivalent in the real world. A character could take 100 damage and literally not have a scratch.
If it helps at all, you could imagine hit dice as longer-term health and HP as shorter-term health and stamina. You only recover half of your hit dice on a long rest.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Also, they boosted rest recovery so much specifically so that Clerics and Druids didn't have to earmark half their spell slots for keeping the party alive, and consequently a party wasn't required to have a healer on the roster, allowing for more player diversity and engagement. As I've previously pointed out in a different thread, within the realm of action/adventure fiction- which is what D&D seeks to emulate- it's hardly uncommon for a main character to have spent several days getting tossed around, shot up, and often standing close enough to an explosion or other conflagration strong enough that they should have seared lungs, and still be able to bring their A game to the final fight. There's alternate rules you can use if you want more grim and gritty realism for injuries and recovery, so if you want to play on hardcore mode, best of luck.
Imo, the HP regain during short and long rest is too much. Players should rely on Druids and Clerics to do that, and if they dont have one then DM needs to supplement it some how.
Who recovers potentially 100 HPs from basic wound care? I get the disbelieving part of the game, but something things are just common sense....like no one heals 100 HPs from basic wound care.
Hardest possible disagree on all counts.
Medicine should have a significant impact on Hit Point regain.
Druids & Clerics should not be the sole sources of Hit Point regain.
Hit Points are not direct proportional representations of flesh and tissue.
The issue with short and long rest is not how much they heal, they heal the correct amounts, the issue is how long they take and that it is often to ignore long rest limitations to let parties long rest basically anywhere and at any time. Short rest should have less limitations in place (compared to long rest) but take longer while long rests really should be week long, instead of 8 hours of sleep.
As for hit points in 5E, hit points are not damage, in fact most the time characters lose hit points, they haven't taken any damage at all. Rather hit points represent a variety of factors but can generally be more said to represent their toughness/resilience. I think people confuse hit points with damage taken, they are not exactly the same things.
You're right. No one heals 100 HP from basic wound care. Because nobody heals any HP from basic wound care. Because nobody has HP. Because HP is an abstraction for the purposes of a game. Saying that people don't recover 100 HP from basic wound care is completely nonsensical because it implies that an amount of HP has an equivalent in the real world. A character could take 100 damage and literally not have a scratch.
If it helps at all, you could imagine hit dice as longer-term health and HP as shorter-term health and stamina. You only recover half of your hit dice on a long rest.
Don't the rest of the people have HP? Now I understand why everyone looks at me when I go out with my HP bar above my head.
Im not comparing to reality, I never said that and it should not be compared to reality, this is a system mechanic comparison. Assume a lvl 10 fighter has 100 HPs, a lvl 10 a strong character. That fighter just healed him self without any Magic help, also a system mechanic, to full health. Just to be clear, not a reality comparison, a system mechanic comparison.
Medic prof should play a big role in recovery. No one should heal full HPs from basic wound care from 8 hours of rest. This only works for low lvl characters.
Also like to add, we are talking about rules as written, I wish people stop comparing to reality
Im not comparing to reality, I never said that and it should not be compared to reality, this is a system mechanic comparison. Assume a lvl 10 fighter has 100 HPs, a lvl 10 a strong character. That fighter just healed him self without any Magic help, also a system mechanic, to full health. Just to be clear, not a reality comparison, a system mechanic comparison.
Medic prof should play a big role in recovery. No one should heal full HPs from basic wound care from 8 hours of rest. This only works for low lvl characters.
Also like to add, we are talking about rules as written, I wish people stop comparing to reality
Again, loss of HP does not always- or even usually- equate to gaping wounds. From the PHB “Hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck”. A good 50+ of your level 10 Fighter’s HP represents the stamina to block a solid hit or dive away from a blast of fire or somesuch. It’s an abstraction of general “staying power” in a fight. Again, refer to my example of literally every action hero ever.
Im not comparing to reality, I never said that and it should not be compared to reality, this is a system mechanic comparison. Assume a lvl 10 fighter has 100 HPs, a lvl 10 a strong character. That fighter just healed him self without any Magic help, also a system mechanic, to full health. Just to be clear, not a reality comparison, a system mechanic comparison.
Medic prof should play a big role in recovery. No one should heal full HPs from basic wound care from 8 hours of rest. This only works for low lvl characters.
Also like to add, we are talking about rules as written, I wish people stop comparing to reality
You're definitely the one who brought up reality. In your first post, you said "no one heals 100 HPs from basic wound care." If you were talking about the system, then this was outright wrong, because people do heal 100 HP from basic wound care in the system. I think it's pretty clear you were talking about realism.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
It’s really uncanny how often this comes up, but hit points do not equal meat points. They are an abstraction. From the PHB: Hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck.
Getting shot by an arrow doesn’t necessarily mean you have a sucking chest wound. It might mean you didn’t get hit at all, but used up your luck, or dodging out of the way made you a bit more tired than you were a second earlier. Tgose kinds of things can be fixed by taking a few minutes to catch your breath.
Not everybody abstracts HP as meaning "Nebulous and inexplicable Universe Juice you expend to avoid being wounded." The game itself doesn't make this abstraction - many monsters have 'Blood in the Water'-style abilities that work against targets "below their maximum hit points" - i.e. targets that are wounded, and are bleeding. Every previous edition described being below max HP as being Wounded, and the edition that did this best broke it down as healthy/Uninjured, Wounded, Bloodied, Critical, and Dying/Dead. Many, many tables play loss of HP as receiving injuries.
Famously, Critical Role does so - losing HP in Critical Role is a result of sustaining injuries, not "dodging, but only in a way that makes dodging harder in the future." I distinctly recall Caleb Widogast taking an impaling wound that pinned him to a wall with a giant metal pole through the shoulder to result in the Restrained condition. In real life, an injury that stands a very good chance of killing (there's a whole lot of important blood vessels in the shoulder, it's not nearly as 'free' to take a wound there as the movies protray) and would absolutely result in crippling that arm for months/years, if not for life. In the game, they yanked the pole out, applied some healing magic, slept, and everything was good as new.
Whether that's a dealbreaker for someone's suspension of disbelief is up to the given someone. I know our table kinna hates that injuries and HP don't really matter and we've experimented with ways around it, but the core game engine relies so heavily on expending and regaining HP by the truckload that it's tricky to come up with an Injury system that A.) feels authentic, and B.) doesn't break combat. It generally requires more DM fiat than our table likes. DM fiat is fine of course, but if everything is up to the whim of the DM and all is chaos forever then the world doesn't feel consistent enough to be worth playing in. It's a tricky issue. Or it is for people who actually care about combat feeling like combat and for characters to believe combat is dangerous.
I dont see how or why it matters how they lost HPs. Character's HPs is just that, their HPs, there is no other meaning to it, its their life. They are dead or they are not.
There does not need to be any specifics to it, its a balance issue. We are talking rules as written mechanics that should be balanced. This our chance to voice our displeasure and provide feedback on a forum made to discuss exactly that. No reality, no homebrew ideas, just fix what is unbalanced.
How is it "unbalanced"? Keep in mind, combat is not designed to be "fair" in that in an appropriately scaled encounter, both parties have an equal chance of winning. Combat is scaled so that the party can go through multiple such encounters a day and consistently win all of them. It's not a matter of DM vs players.
Its unbalanced because a 20th lvl fighter should not go from 1HP to 200 HP from an 8 hour rest, that is the job of magic aid.
Why? As has been repeatedly explained, the in-universe explanation of HP is that it is not representative of significant wounds. So in-universe there is no reason why a level 20 character who is down to 1 HP is worse off than, say, a professional athlete who just played a particularly intense game. Yeah, they've got nothing in the tank at the moment, but they're not ready for a trip to critical care either.
And more importantly- to repeat the point you haven't yet addressed- the Doylist purpose behind it is so that the party can consistently function well without forcing one character to constantly spend their resources to keep everyone else going, rather than proactively dealing with the various challenges presented. If you don't enjoy it, find or run a table using alternate rest rules, but your entire argument for why you view the system as objectively wrong seems to boil down to "that's not how I would do it".
The big secret: There is no way to make hit points make sense. They're inherently inconsistent.
And that's fine. They don't need to make sense. They just need to work for the goals of the game, and realism is not one of those goals.
Don't think about it too hard; your life will be much richer.
That said, "characters shouldn't recover hit points so quickly" is absolutely a legitimate opinion. It's a preference for a different style of game than the one that the 5e designers went for.
How exactly is full recovery on a long rest not balanced? It's fine as long as you account for characters being at their best after each long rest, which is what the game at least tries to do. There's nothing inherently wrong with per-day balance.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
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Imo, the HP regain during short and long rest is too much. Players should rely on Druids and Clerics to do that, and if they dont have one then DM needs to supplement it some how.
Who recovers potentially 100 HPs from basic wound care? I get the disbelieving part of the game, but something things are just common sense....like no one heals 100 HPs from basic wound care.
You're right. No one heals 100 HP from basic wound care. Because nobody heals any HP from basic wound care. Because nobody has HP. Because HP is an abstraction for the purposes of a game. Saying that people don't recover 100 HP from basic wound care is completely nonsensical because it implies that an amount of HP has an equivalent in the real world. A character could take 100 damage and literally not have a scratch.
If it helps at all, you could imagine hit dice as longer-term health and HP as shorter-term health and stamina. You only recover half of your hit dice on a long rest.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Also, they boosted rest recovery so much specifically so that Clerics and Druids didn't have to earmark half their spell slots for keeping the party alive, and consequently a party wasn't required to have a healer on the roster, allowing for more player diversity and engagement. As I've previously pointed out in a different thread, within the realm of action/adventure fiction- which is what D&D seeks to emulate- it's hardly uncommon for a main character to have spent several days getting tossed around, shot up, and often standing close enough to an explosion or other conflagration strong enough that they should have seared lungs, and still be able to bring their A game to the final fight. There's alternate rules you can use if you want more grim and gritty realism for injuries and recovery, so if you want to play on hardcore mode, best of luck.
Hardest possible disagree on all counts.
Medicine should have a significant impact on Hit Point regain.
Druids & Clerics should not be the sole sources of Hit Point regain.
Hit Points are not direct proportional representations of flesh and tissue.
The issue with short and long rest is not how much they heal, they heal the correct amounts, the issue is how long they take and that it is often to ignore long rest limitations to let parties long rest basically anywhere and at any time. Short rest should have less limitations in place (compared to long rest) but take longer while long rests really should be week long, instead of 8 hours of sleep.
As for hit points in 5E, hit points are not damage, in fact most the time characters lose hit points, they haven't taken any damage at all. Rather hit points represent a variety of factors but can generally be more said to represent their toughness/resilience. I think people confuse hit points with damage taken, they are not exactly the same things.
Don't the rest of the people have HP? Now I understand why everyone looks at me when I go out with my HP bar above my head.
Im not comparing to reality, I never said that and it should not be compared to reality, this is a system mechanic comparison. Assume a lvl 10 fighter has 100 HPs, a lvl 10 a strong character. That fighter just healed him self without any Magic help, also a system mechanic, to full health. Just to be clear, not a reality comparison, a system mechanic comparison.
Medic prof should play a big role in recovery. No one should heal full HPs from basic wound care from 8 hours of rest. This only works for low lvl characters.
Also like to add, we are talking about rules as written, I wish people stop comparing to reality
Again, loss of HP does not always- or even usually- equate to gaping wounds. From the PHB “Hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck”. A good 50+ of your level 10 Fighter’s HP represents the stamina to block a solid hit or dive away from a blast of fire or somesuch. It’s an abstraction of general “staying power” in a fight. Again, refer to my example of literally every action hero ever.
You're definitely the one who brought up reality. In your first post, you said "no one heals 100 HPs from basic wound care." If you were talking about the system, then this was outright wrong, because people do heal 100 HP from basic wound care in the system. I think it's pretty clear you were talking about realism.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
It’s really uncanny how often this comes up, but hit points do not equal meat points. They are an abstraction. From the PHB: Hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck.
Getting shot by an arrow doesn’t necessarily mean you have a sucking chest wound. It might mean you didn’t get hit at all, but used up your luck, or dodging out of the way made you a bit more tired than you were a second earlier. Tgose kinds of things can be fixed by taking a few minutes to catch your breath.
Not everybody abstracts HP as meaning "Nebulous and inexplicable Universe Juice you expend to avoid being wounded." The game itself doesn't make this abstraction - many monsters have 'Blood in the Water'-style abilities that work against targets "below their maximum hit points" - i.e. targets that are wounded, and are bleeding. Every previous edition described being below max HP as being Wounded, and the edition that did this best broke it down as healthy/Uninjured, Wounded, Bloodied, Critical, and Dying/Dead. Many, many tables play loss of HP as receiving injuries.
Famously, Critical Role does so - losing HP in Critical Role is a result of sustaining injuries, not "dodging, but only in a way that makes dodging harder in the future." I distinctly recall Caleb Widogast taking an impaling wound that pinned him to a wall with a giant metal pole through the shoulder to result in the Restrained condition. In real life, an injury that stands a very good chance of killing (there's a whole lot of important blood vessels in the shoulder, it's not nearly as 'free' to take a wound there as the movies protray) and would absolutely result in crippling that arm for months/years, if not for life. In the game, they yanked the pole out, applied some healing magic, slept, and everything was good as new.
Whether that's a dealbreaker for someone's suspension of disbelief is up to the given someone. I know our table kinna hates that injuries and HP don't really matter and we've experimented with ways around it, but the core game engine relies so heavily on expending and regaining HP by the truckload that it's tricky to come up with an Injury system that A.) feels authentic, and B.) doesn't break combat. It generally requires more DM fiat than our table likes. DM fiat is fine of course, but if everything is up to the whim of the DM and all is chaos forever then the world doesn't feel consistent enough to be worth playing in. It's a tricky issue. Or it is for people who actually care about combat feeling like combat and for characters to believe combat is dangerous.
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You could use the slow healing rule in the DMG if you don’t want the players to get all their HP back after finishing a long rest.
They will have to rely on options like healing potions and spells during adventuring and expanding hit dice while taking a short or long rest.
You're right, it did sound like that. I meant in game terms, no one should heal that much from basic wound care. Its unbalanced
I dont see how or why it matters how they lost HPs. Character's HPs is just that, their HPs, there is no other meaning to it, its their life. They are dead or they are not.
There does not need to be any specifics to it, its a balance issue. We are talking rules as written mechanics that should be balanced. This our chance to voice our displeasure and provide feedback on a forum made to discuss exactly that. No reality, no homebrew ideas, just fix what is unbalanced.
How is it "unbalanced"? Keep in mind, combat is not designed to be "fair" in that in an appropriately scaled encounter, both parties have an equal chance of winning. Combat is scaled so that the party can go through multiple such encounters a day and consistently win all of them. It's not a matter of DM vs players.
Its unbalanced because a 20th lvl fighter should not go from 1HP to 200 HP from an 8 hour rest, that is the job of magic aid.
Why? As has been repeatedly explained, the in-universe explanation of HP is that it is not representative of significant wounds. So in-universe there is no reason why a level 20 character who is down to 1 HP is worse off than, say, a professional athlete who just played a particularly intense game. Yeah, they've got nothing in the tank at the moment, but they're not ready for a trip to critical care either.
And more importantly- to repeat the point you haven't yet addressed- the Doylist purpose behind it is so that the party can consistently function well without forcing one character to constantly spend their resources to keep everyone else going, rather than proactively dealing with the various challenges presented. If you don't enjoy it, find or run a table using alternate rest rules, but your entire argument for why you view the system as objectively wrong seems to boil down to "that's not how I would do it".
Heh, expanding resources is part of the game, that is what creates balance.
The big secret: There is no way to make hit points make sense. They're inherently inconsistent.
And that's fine. They don't need to make sense. They just need to work for the goals of the game, and realism is not one of those goals.
Don't think about it too hard; your life will be much richer.
That said, "characters shouldn't recover hit points so quickly" is absolutely a legitimate opinion. It's a preference for a different style of game than the one that the 5e designers went for.
How exactly is full recovery on a long rest not balanced? It's fine as long as you account for characters being at their best after each long rest, which is what the game at least tries to do. There's nothing inherently wrong with per-day balance.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)