First, let me tell you a bit about my party. We're a rather large group - Celestial Warlock (the subject of this post), Shadow Sorc, Bladesinger Wizard, Druid of the Moon, Berserker Barbarian, Paladin 'of the ancients' and Battlemaster (myself). We're all level 9 at this time.
Also our group heavily focuses on roleplay, social mingling and exploration, so we usually have one battle every four sessions on average, meaning everybody is usually fully rested and has all special abilities available. (We have yet to fight anything that even remotely provides a challenge, but with so many characters ... I've given up that hope already.)
A while ago our Warlock player complained to the DM that she feels 'not powerful enough', and the DM in his naivity fell for it, and thus he granted the Warlock regular spell slots - like a Wizard, for example.
Now, I've never played any 'true caster' beyond level 5, but I'm kinda concerned that the 'spell slot upgrade' for our Warlock is too powerful. Of course our Wizard, Sorc and Druid complained to the DM but fell on deaf ears ...
Any opinions on this?
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Apologies if my English is bad, it's not my native language.
The Celestial Warlock with regular spell slots is basically a Divine Soul Sorcerer with fewer spell options. If they've gone Pact of the Tome then they do have a pretty good selection of cantrips and, with an invocation, are likely the best ritual caster in the game.
As long as they're not trying to still regain expended spell slots on a short rest they can be regarded as just another flavor of Sorcerer.
What do you mean by regular spell slots? Do they come back on a long rest or a short rest?
If you're playing a campaign where short rests don't matter, why are the short rest mechanics on the Druid, Paladin, and Fighter being ignored when "patching" class abilities? If short rests do matter, why modify the Warlock?
If your DM wasn't doing multiple encounters a day with short rests in between then a Warlock (Monk, and to a lesser extent fighter) would be getting shortchanged. It really depends on the campaign on if this is overbalanced, but it might have been an easier solution than to roll up a new character.
The other solution would have been to have more encounters in a day with more short rests. I think the druid/wizard/sorcerer would have liked that choice less.
Also great work from the character on playing a warlock. Negotiating a new and better deal is 100% in character.
Okay, so ... the spell slots apparently come back every long rest - but I don't think that it matters: We never had less than 3-7 ingame days between fights, so everyone was always fully rested.
The Sorc, Wizard and Druid keep complaining that 'Warlock spells are just too powerful if there are so many spell slots to burn' - as I basically don't know anything about Warlock (never played one, admittedly) I admittedly have no clue on this subject. In the end I have no say in this campaign anyway, I'm just curious what other people who know the Warlock (and casters in general) better than I do.
Okay, so ... the spell slots apparently come back every long rest - but I don't think that it matters: We never had less than 3-7 ingame days between fights, so everyone was always fully rested.
The Sorc, Wizard and Druid keep complaining that 'Warlock spells are just too powerful if there are so many spell slots to burn' - as I basically don't know anything about Warlock (never played one, admittedly) I admittedly have no clue on this subject. In the end I have no say in this campaign anyway, I'm just curious what other people who know the Warlock (and casters in general) better than I do.
Edit: Typo.
They should have the exact same amount of slots they do if they are following the normal class guide for spell slot progression.
The one complaint they may have is that the warlock gets Eldritch Blast + Agonizing blast which does make their cantrip damage output higher than theirs with just Firebolt etc... this would be the part I would complain about as another caster as that is there to compensate the warlock for having (Normally that is) fewer slots to work with.
However, the overall spell lists between them all is highly debatable and depends on what spells they picked, what you guys are facing, and how the DM interprets the results.
I was going to say as well that the complaint would be the marginal increase on damage with EB+AB vs. wizard cantrips, but if you are only having one combat per long rest with 5th level slots it should rarely be coming up. On the other hand having only 2 slots would be coming up every combat. The wizard/sorcerer/druid would be going full on for 5+ rounds with spells and the warlock would run out in 2. In a more normal pace the wizard has to pace himself through the whole day, while the warlock paces themself through short rests. This usually balances out with the wizard casting twice as many spells and the warlock getting better damage on EB. Also the wizard has the ability to use its spells for exploration and other facets of the game. The warlock can't do that with only two slots. At the pace of play you are describing playing a warlock could be a terrible experience. Maybe a tomelok could enjoy it, but the wizard/druid can duplicate their thing so they wouldn't feel very special.
If the DM doesn't want to change the pace of the game then he may have made the right call
Okay, so ... the spell slots apparently come back every long rest - but I don't think that it matters: We never had less than 3-7 ingame days between fights, so everyone was always fully rested.
The Sorc, Wizard and Druid keep complaining that 'Warlock spells are just too powerful if there are so many spell slots to burn' - as I basically don't know anything about Warlock (never played one, admittedly) I admittedly have no clue on this subject. In the end I have no say in this campaign anyway, I'm just curious what other people who know the Warlock (and casters in general) better than I do.
Edit: Typo.
Oh, that's nonsense. Warlock spells aren't intrinsically more powerful than non-Warlock spells - if they were, you'd see more builds built around getting Warlock spells as a non-Warlock, which is trivial (e.g. Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul Sorcerers both have widespread access to the Warlock list). Here's what's potentially not nonsense:
The Warlock gets non-slot abilities in the form of invocations and a pact boon, balanced around the Warlock's limited access to slots. Exploding out the Warlock's slot count will make them radically more powerful than their base form because they'll get the slots and these other benefits. The best comparison point available is a bard, which is already a full-caster with a bunch of side benefits. I've never done the comparison myself, but the Warlock with full slots should be compared to a Bard for assessing balance.
Note that there may be further interactions based on the Warlock subclass, especially since Warlocks subclass at level 1, so there's no way to avoid subclass benefits. Likewise, you'd need to consider Bard subclass benefits across multiple subclasses for a fair comparison.
The Druid's Wild Shape comes back on a short rest. If the Warlock is getting buffed because short rests don't matter, the Druid should probably be demanding more Wild Shapes that come back on a long rest.
The Paladin should have similar concerns about Channel Divinity and the Fighter about Second Wind and Maneuver Dice.
Depends on the way the campaign plays out, and the number of short rests. Its not the spells that make the Warlock powerful; honestly their list is more restrictive than the other pure arcane classes.
What is an issue is that the Warlock has the best damage cantrip in the game, and invocations that do a variety of stuff. So now they have traditional spell points *plus* that stuff, which Wizards and the like don't get. They also have d8 hit points.
If the party doesn't tend to do short rests at all, this isn't a huge deal. But as a person playing a warlock, I do just fine with the two spell slots and always have productive things to do. This would make a Warlock pretty nasty, since a Wizard needs those spells to do their thing. A Warlock with traditional spells has a luxury that they don't. I'm hoping this Warlock needs to prepare spells like the wizard at least.
Depends on the way the campaign plays out, and the number of short rests. Its not the spells that make the Warlock powerful; honestly their list is more restrictive than the other pure arcane classes.
What is an issue is that the Warlock has the best damage cantrip in the game, and invocations that do a variety of stuff. So now they have traditional spell points *plus* that stuff, which Wizards and the like don't get. They also have d8 hit points.
If the party doesn't tend to do short rests at all, this isn't a huge deal. But as a person playing a warlock, I do just fine with the two spell slots and always have productive things to do. This would make a Warlock pretty nasty, since a Wizard needs those spells to do their thing. A Warlock with traditional spells has a luxury that they don't. I'm hoping this Warlock needs to prepare spells like the wizard at least.
Preparing spells like a wizard would be a radical upgrade in power over being a mere know-caster like a Warlock normally is.
Probably too good. Hard to guess given how odd ball your campaign sounds. But if a fight is once every 5+ days your rest/recovery mechanic is sort of irrelevant, everyone just goes all out every round. Outside of the fight the warlock very well may be contributing more, you have a social game hes a chr based class and invocations can add more versatility. And now in the fight he doesn't have to bother with cantrips or worry about using his 2 spells too quickly. The ones who should really be hurting are the martials as they have less of an ability to nova. The fighter can action surge once and blow through superioirty dice, but that wont match 5th/4th/3rd level spells being cast with abandon.
If a fighter complained that he felt the damage from his weapons didn't do as much as a wizard's fireball spell, would you suddenly let him hit several targets instead of one and let his longsword do 8d8 slashing?
I see a two page list of legendary magical weapons that says the answer is frequently yes.
But also, I don't see any clerics in the party, so was the celestial warlock trying to play field medic with two slots of cure wounds per day? That could get pretty frustrating.
In this campaign would you not have access/the ability to take, if not many short rests per day, at least the standard amount? If you're not seeing combat except very rarely, then there should be ample opportunity for some downtime. Not that you can't get caught up in travel/exploration/social interactions for significant periods, but I can't see why there would be no opportunity for rest.
But, more importantly, what is the Berserker bringing to the table? Obviously a very heavy RP group so I'm interested in how the Barb is bringing their character to the table.
I agree with your warlock on this, to an extent. It feels awful when your class is built around short resting to stay competitive with the other classes in an assumed full adventuring day, but you're only getting into one big fight once a week or so.
So the paladin gets to smite with reckless abandon until they run dry. The bladesinger, druid, and sorc are just allowed to squat over an encounter and let out steamy pile of spells, dumping all their slots in the process. The barbarian gets to rage and frenzy without worry cause there's nothing else beyond this encounter for the day.
meanwhile you, as the fighter, just action surge once, and toss out some superiority dice. Sure, the nova's nice when you action surge with GWM and toss out precision attacks to make sure they all land, but the barbarian's hitting harder while doing 3 attacks every turn from frenzy and possibly reckless, because why not, not like they'll need the HP afterwards.
and the poor warlock, just gets to use two slots before they run dry and turn into a EB bot.
Yet I don't think giving them normal spell slots is the answer. The answer is having your DM plan things out so the day has multiple combats! Or, even using gritty realism rules for resting ! That might actually be a good idea.
Honestly, the real solution is for your DM to stop being lazy and plan out more encounters a day.
I agree with your warlock on this, to an extent. It feels awful when your class is built around short resting to stay competitive with the other classes in an assumed full adventuring day, but you're only getting into one big fight once a week or so.
So the paladin gets to smite with reckless abandon until they run dry. The bladesinger, druid, and sorc are just allowed to squat over an encounter and let out steamy pile of spells, dumping all their slots in the process. The barbarian gets to rage and frenzy without worry cause there's nothing else beyond this encounter for the day.
meanwhile you, as the fighter, just action surge once, and toss out some superiority dice. Sure, the nova's nice when you action surge with GWM and toss out precision attacks to make sure they all land, but the barbarian's hitting harder while doing 3 attacks every turn from frenzy and possibly reckless, because why not, not like they'll need the HP afterwards.
and the poor warlock, just gets to use two slots before they run dry and turn into a EB bot.
Yet I don't think giving them normal spell slots is the answer. The answer is having your DM plan things out so the day has multiple combats! Or, even using gritty realism rules for resting ! That might actually be a good idea.
Honestly, the real solution is for your DM to stop being lazy and plan out more encounters a day.
Shocking that a game called Dungeons and Dragons combat is best when it is actually a dungeon crawl!
But joking aside I agree....that 3-4 hard/deadly encounters per day is about the sweet spot for 5e IMO.
I agree with your warlock on this, to an extent. It feels awful when your class is built around short resting to stay competitive with the other classes in an assumed full adventuring day, but you're only getting into one big fight once a week or so.
So the paladin gets to smite with reckless abandon until they run dry. The bladesinger, druid, and sorc are just allowed to squat over an encounter and let out steamy pile of spells, dumping all their slots in the process. The barbarian gets to rage and frenzy without worry cause there's nothing else beyond this encounter for the day.
meanwhile you, as the fighter, just action surge once, and toss out some superiority dice. Sure, the nova's nice when you action surge with GWM and toss out precision attacks to make sure they all land, but the barbarian's hitting harder while doing 3 attacks every turn from frenzy and possibly reckless, because why not, not like they'll need the HP afterwards.
and the poor warlock, just gets to use two slots before they run dry and turn into a EB bot.
Yet I don't think giving them normal spell slots is the answer. The answer is having your DM plan things out so the day has multiple combats! Or, even using gritty realism rules for resting ! That might actually be a good idea.
Honestly, the real solution is for your DM to stop being lazy and plan out more encounters a day.
yes, more encounters is the best solution. But with an entire party novaing how many fights last past much two rounds anyways. In 2 levels they get a 3rd and a arcanum, so 4 spells per fight. Which brings up how are they going to handle the arcanums with this spell casting system. Given how EB works I feel like the class was designed where the assumption was more cantrip use than other classes. That's where all the invocations etc come into play. A warlock has much better non spell casting traits compared to other casters. So yeah their spell casting is a bit weaker, making it close to equal does skew things since I doubt most the non spell casting traits went away.
Okay, so ... the spell slots apparently come back every long rest - but I don't think that it matters: We never had less than 3-7 ingame days between fights, so everyone was always fully rested.
The Sorc, Wizard and Druid keep complaining that 'Warlock spells are just too powerful if there are so many spell slots to burn' - as I basically don't know anything about Warlock (never played one, admittedly) I admittedly have no clue on this subject. In the end I have no say in this campaign anyway, I'm just curious what other people who know the Warlock (and casters in general) better than I do.
Edit: Typo.
A Wizard complaining about the "OP" Warlock spell list? That is BS.
Considering how you play (1 combat per long rest) I find this fair as otherwise Warlock would indeed be SIGNIFICANTLY weaker than the other casters in the party bordering to complete uselessness in comparation. While Warlocks are pretty much designed to use one spell per combat and then spam EB, which is still pretty respectable under normal circumstaces, in one day adventures they WILL strongly fall behind the rest of the party.
A better solution though that can be translated to all party members and not just the warlock is to instead gain triple all short rest resources on a long rest if you know short rests are unlikely to occur (as you are supposed to take 2 short rests per day). That way a Warlock has 6 pact spell slots as an example. It is not perfectly balanced, but it is far more balanced than the warlock sitting on only two spellslots while the other casters can rain down spells like it's nothing.
EDIT: To clarify, I do suggest this for ALL party members, not just the Warlock.
The real problem is not the power of the characters, they are all of them, well built for Combat, and that's irrelevant in a game that has few challenging fights, some degree of Exploration, and is mostly Roleplay. The Druid has the Exploration part nailed down, and what is most needed in that game is a party "Face", assuming that your "social mingling" involves NPCs rather than you all sitting there and talking to each-other in character. You need a Bard. Bingo. More spell slots, a wide variety of spells, Bardic Inspiration makes every aspect of the game easier, and they fill in as a back-up for almost every role.
Hello!
First, let me tell you a bit about my party. We're a rather large group - Celestial Warlock (the subject of this post), Shadow Sorc, Bladesinger Wizard, Druid of the Moon, Berserker Barbarian, Paladin 'of the ancients' and Battlemaster (myself). We're all level 9 at this time.
Also our group heavily focuses on roleplay, social mingling and exploration, so we usually have one battle every four sessions on average, meaning everybody is usually fully rested and has all special abilities available. (We have yet to fight anything that even remotely provides a challenge, but with so many characters ... I've given up that hope already.)
A while ago our Warlock player complained to the DM that she feels 'not powerful enough', and the DM in his naivity fell for it, and thus he granted the Warlock regular spell slots - like a Wizard, for example.
Now, I've never played any 'true caster' beyond level 5, but I'm kinda concerned that the 'spell slot upgrade' for our Warlock is too powerful. Of course our Wizard, Sorc and Druid complained to the DM but fell on deaf ears ...
Any opinions on this?
Apologies if my English is bad, it's not my native language.
Until 2023 I bought ~15 5E and 30 AD&D2 books.
No more.
To be honest, probably not.
The Celestial Warlock with regular spell slots is basically a Divine Soul Sorcerer with fewer spell options. If they've gone Pact of the Tome then they do have a pretty good selection of cantrips and, with an invocation, are likely the best ritual caster in the game.
As long as they're not trying to still regain expended spell slots on a short rest they can be regarded as just another flavor of Sorcerer.
What do you mean by regular spell slots? Do they come back on a long rest or a short rest?
If you're playing a campaign where short rests don't matter, why are the short rest mechanics on the Druid, Paladin, and Fighter being ignored when "patching" class abilities? If short rests do matter, why modify the Warlock?
If the spell slots follow normal rules for other classes (come back on a long rest, aren't all level five spells) then it shouldn't be overpowered.
Its weird, and kind of defeats the point of the Warlock as a class that is using borrowed power and trying to stretch it for all it is worth.
If your DM wasn't doing multiple encounters a day with short rests in between then a Warlock (Monk, and to a lesser extent fighter) would be getting shortchanged. It really depends on the campaign on if this is overbalanced, but it might have been an easier solution than to roll up a new character.
The other solution would have been to have more encounters in a day with more short rests. I think the druid/wizard/sorcerer would have liked that choice less.
Also great work from the character on playing a warlock. Negotiating a new and better deal is 100% in character.
Okay, so ... the spell slots apparently come back every long rest - but I don't think that it matters: We never had less than 3-7 ingame days between fights, so everyone was always fully rested.
The Sorc, Wizard and Druid keep complaining that 'Warlock spells are just too powerful if there are so many spell slots to burn' - as I basically don't know anything about Warlock (never played one, admittedly) I admittedly have no clue on this subject. In the end I have no say in this campaign anyway, I'm just curious what other people who know the Warlock (and casters in general) better than I do.
Edit: Typo.
Apologies if my English is bad, it's not my native language.
Until 2023 I bought ~15 5E and 30 AD&D2 books.
No more.
They should have the exact same amount of slots they do if they are following the normal class guide for spell slot progression.
The one complaint they may have is that the warlock gets Eldritch Blast + Agonizing blast which does make their cantrip damage output higher than theirs with just Firebolt etc... this would be the part I would complain about as another caster as that is there to compensate the warlock for having (Normally that is) fewer slots to work with.
However, the overall spell lists between them all is highly debatable and depends on what spells they picked, what you guys are facing, and how the DM interprets the results.
I was going to say as well that the complaint would be the marginal increase on damage with EB+AB vs. wizard cantrips, but if you are only having one combat per long rest with 5th level slots it should rarely be coming up. On the other hand having only 2 slots would be coming up every combat. The wizard/sorcerer/druid would be going full on for 5+ rounds with spells and the warlock would run out in 2. In a more normal pace the wizard has to pace himself through the whole day, while the warlock paces themself through short rests. This usually balances out with the wizard casting twice as many spells and the warlock getting better damage on EB. Also the wizard has the ability to use its spells for exploration and other facets of the game. The warlock can't do that with only two slots. At the pace of play you are describing playing a warlock could be a terrible experience. Maybe a tomelok could enjoy it, but the wizard/druid can duplicate their thing so they wouldn't feel very special.
If the DM doesn't want to change the pace of the game then he may have made the right call
Oh, that's nonsense. Warlock spells aren't intrinsically more powerful than non-Warlock spells - if they were, you'd see more builds built around getting Warlock spells as a non-Warlock, which is trivial (e.g. Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul Sorcerers both have widespread access to the Warlock list). Here's what's potentially not nonsense:
Depends on the way the campaign plays out, and the number of short rests. Its not the spells that make the Warlock powerful; honestly their list is more restrictive than the other pure arcane classes.
What is an issue is that the Warlock has the best damage cantrip in the game, and invocations that do a variety of stuff. So now they have traditional spell points *plus* that stuff, which Wizards and the like don't get. They also have d8 hit points.
If the party doesn't tend to do short rests at all, this isn't a huge deal. But as a person playing a warlock, I do just fine with the two spell slots and always have productive things to do. This would make a Warlock pretty nasty, since a Wizard needs those spells to do their thing. A Warlock with traditional spells has a luxury that they don't. I'm hoping this Warlock needs to prepare spells like the wizard at least.
Preparing spells like a wizard would be a radical upgrade in power over being a mere know-caster like a Warlock normally is.
Probably too good. Hard to guess given how odd ball your campaign sounds. But if a fight is once every 5+ days your rest/recovery mechanic is sort of irrelevant, everyone just goes all out every round. Outside of the fight the warlock very well may be contributing more, you have a social game hes a chr based class and invocations can add more versatility. And now in the fight he doesn't have to bother with cantrips or worry about using his 2 spells too quickly. The ones who should really be hurting are the martials as they have less of an ability to nova. The fighter can action surge once and blow through superioirty dice, but that wont match 5th/4th/3rd level spells being cast with abandon.
I see a two page list of legendary magical weapons that says the answer is frequently yes.
But also, I don't see any clerics in the party, so was the celestial warlock trying to play field medic with two slots of cure wounds per day? That could get pretty frustrating.
In this campaign would you not have access/the ability to take, if not many short rests per day, at least the standard amount? If you're not seeing combat except very rarely, then there should be ample opportunity for some downtime. Not that you can't get caught up in travel/exploration/social interactions for significant periods, but I can't see why there would be no opportunity for rest.
But, more importantly, what is the Berserker bringing to the table? Obviously a very heavy RP group so I'm interested in how the Barb is bringing their character to the table.
I agree with your warlock on this, to an extent. It feels awful when your class is built around short resting to stay competitive with the other classes in an assumed full adventuring day, but you're only getting into one big fight once a week or so.
So the paladin gets to smite with reckless abandon until they run dry. The bladesinger, druid, and sorc are just allowed to squat over an encounter and let out steamy pile of spells, dumping all their slots in the process. The barbarian gets to rage and frenzy without worry cause there's nothing else beyond this encounter for the day.
meanwhile you, as the fighter, just action surge once, and toss out some superiority dice. Sure, the nova's nice when you action surge with GWM and toss out precision attacks to make sure they all land, but the barbarian's hitting harder while doing 3 attacks every turn from frenzy and possibly reckless, because why not, not like they'll need the HP afterwards.
and the poor warlock, just gets to use two slots before they run dry and turn into a EB bot.
Yet I don't think giving them normal spell slots is the answer. The answer is having your DM plan things out so the day has multiple combats! Or, even using gritty realism rules for resting ! That might actually be a good idea.
Honestly, the real solution is for your DM to stop being lazy and plan out more encounters a day.
Shocking that a game called Dungeons and Dragons combat is best when it is actually a dungeon crawl!
But joking aside I agree....that 3-4 hard/deadly encounters per day is about the sweet spot for 5e IMO.
yes, more encounters is the best solution. But with an entire party novaing how many fights last past much two rounds anyways. In 2 levels they get a 3rd and a arcanum, so 4 spells per fight. Which brings up how are they going to handle the arcanums with this spell casting system. Given how EB works I feel like the class was designed where the assumption was more cantrip use than other classes. That's where all the invocations etc come into play. A warlock has much better non spell casting traits compared to other casters. So yeah their spell casting is a bit weaker, making it close to equal does skew things since I doubt most the non spell casting traits went away.
A Wizard complaining about the "OP" Warlock spell list? That is BS.
Considering how you play (1 combat per long rest) I find this fair as otherwise Warlock would indeed be SIGNIFICANTLY weaker than the other casters in the party bordering to complete uselessness in comparation. While Warlocks are pretty much designed to use one spell per combat and then spam EB, which is still pretty respectable under normal circumstaces, in one day adventures they WILL strongly fall behind the rest of the party.
A better solution though that can be translated to all party members and not just the warlock is to instead gain triple all short rest resources on a long rest if you know short rests are unlikely to occur (as you are supposed to take 2 short rests per day). That way a Warlock has 6 pact spell slots as an example. It is not perfectly balanced, but it is far more balanced than the warlock sitting on only two spellslots while the other casters can rain down spells like it's nothing.
EDIT: To clarify, I do suggest this for ALL party members, not just the Warlock.
The real problem is not the power of the characters, they are all of them, well built for Combat, and that's irrelevant in a game that has few challenging fights, some degree of Exploration, and is mostly Roleplay. The Druid has the Exploration part nailed down, and what is most needed in that game is a party "Face", assuming that your "social mingling" involves NPCs rather than you all sitting there and talking to each-other in character. You need a Bard. Bingo. More spell slots, a wide variety of spells, Bardic Inspiration makes every aspect of the game easier, and they fill in as a back-up for almost every role.
<Insert clever signature here>