Genie's Vessel has all the hallmarks of a pocket dimension; a demiplane, in D&D terms.
Provided you know how to create an attuned fork for it, you can use the Plane Shift spell to enter a previously-created demiplane.
So, to DMs and warlocks out there: do you think a player should be able to Plane Shift into their own Genie's Vessel, provided they find or create the material component necessary?
If so, how do you think that should interact with the feature's normal limits (the time limit, bringing others with you, etc.)
Could be a fun surprise for the players when a BBEG plane shifts into their house and starts to throw down...
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Question is, if you plane shift or gate into your vessel while carrying your vessel, what happens?
The vessel is inside itself, attempting to leave put's the warlock inside the vessel in an unoccupied space near the vessel.
The vessel is broken, the paradox is too strong.
The warlock is teleported somewhere, the elemental plane of it's patron, a bizarre nightmare realm, the blender dimension or maybe the warlock appears in front of a group of D&D players, you go mad as you stare into the eyes of your own character. You start to question if you created the character or if the character created you, but now feel like you're perceiving your senses as if seeing through the eyes of a familiar. "Am I the warlock?" You're looking down on yourself as the you you're watching rolls a d20, as the die comes to a stop (natural 20), you're transported to a world filled with magic and monsters. You adjust quickly to your new situation but start to notice how the outcome of any given action can have an almost random chance of success....
The spell fails, either the vessel is secure against inter planner travel or touching the vessel to the portal dispels it.
The DM cries and optionally screams "And this, is why we can't have nice things!".
Well the ring doesn't actually have the extradimensional space inside it, it is just the way that you get there, just like it wouldn't break the game to bring a bag of holding to the astral plane.
Well the ring doesn't actually have the extradimensional space inside it, it is just the way that you get there, just like it wouldn't break the game to bring a bag of holding to the astral plane.
I'm afraid it does friend ;)
"As an action, you can magically vanish and enter your vessel, which remains in the space you left. The interior of the vessel is an extradimensional space in the shape of a 20-foot-radius cylinder, 20 feet high, and resembles your vessel. The interior is appointed with cushions and low tables and is a comfortable temperature. While inside, you can hear the area around your vessel as if you were in its space. You can remain inside the vessel up to a number of hours equal to twice your proficiency bonus."
Well the ring doesn't actually have the extradimensional space inside it, it is just the way that you get there, just like it wouldn't break the game to bring a bag of holding to the astral plane.
Break the game? No, however some would consider placing an extradimensional space in and extradimensional space like placing the vessel in a bag of holding or bringing a bag of holding into your vessel as triggering the bomb.
"Placing a bag of holding inside an extradimensional space created by a handy haversack, portable hole, or similar item instantly destroys both items and opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The gate originates where the one item was placed inside the other. Any creature within 10 feet of the gate is sucked through it to a random location on the Astral Plane. The gate then closes. The gate is one-way only and can’t be reopened.
Genie's Vessel has all the hallmarks of a pocket dimension; a demiplane, in D&D terms.
Provided you know how to create an attuned fork for it, you can use the Plane Shift spell to enter a previously-created demiplane.
So, to DMs and warlocks out there: do you think a player should be able to Plane Shift into their own Genie's Vessel, provided they find or create the material component necessary?
If so, how do you think that should interact with the feature's normal limits (the time limit, bringing others with you, etc.)
I love this idea! It has some issues that you probably already considered. Whether you have the fork or not the bigger issue is that Plane Shift may not be exact enough to land you directly into that 20'x20' extradimensional space inside the genie vessel. Let's look at the words:
"You and up to eight willing creatures who link hands in a circle are transported to a different plane of existence. You can specify a target destination in general terms, such as the City of Brass on the Elemental Plane of Fire or the palace of Dispater on the second level of the Nine Hells, and you appear inor near that destination. If you are trying to reach the City of Brass,for example,you might arrive in its Street of Steel, before its Gate of Ashes, or looking at the city from across the Sea of Fire, at the GM's discretion.
Doesn't seem very exact and could lead to missing the vessel entirely and ending up on the astral plane somewhere. However, there is an alternative if you keep reading Plane Shift:
"Alternatively, if you know the sigil sequence of a teleportation circle on another plane of existence, this spell can take you to that circle. If the teleportation circle is too small to hold all the creatures you transported, they appear in the closest unoccupied spaces next to the circle."
Don't get too excited though..."to create a permanent teleportation circle you have to cast the 5th level Teleportation Circle spell in the same location (inside your vessel I'm assuming) every day for one year. Seems like a lot of trouble plus if your vessel is destroyed, every object stored there harmlessly appears in the unoccupied spaces closest to the vessel’s former space which could imply that the place where you made a teleportation circle is gone.
Also, I don't think the extradimensional space inside a genie vessel is a demiplane; that's a 30'x30' space created by an 8th lvl spell.
The pocket dimension seems different than a genie vessel: "The All-Purpose Pocket Dimension is a portable gateway to a private space which is unaffected by the world outside." Whereas the genie vessel seems affected by the world outside being that it can be destroyed and cause all its innards to be deposited outside. What are your guys thoughts?
So all that said, I think a warlock can try to Plane Shift into their vessel but will run the risk of missing the mark unless a teleportation circle has been set up inside. There are several ways a DM could determine whether they succeed or not. Overall, doesn't seem like the pros outweigh the cons to me unless the vessel was indestructible maybe.
You can eavesdrop from your vessel, attach it to a creature and go for a ride, take a rest inside while a party member travels, set up a workspace inside to craft and repair items, tie it to a balloon and float it up to an airship, conceal it as a suppository inside a willing or unwilling host, have a party member give it as a gift while you wait inside like a trojan horse, or use sleight of hand to drop it in someone's pocket with you inside, tie it to a bolt or arrow to launch you inside a window or heavily guarded compound.
What if someone swallowed your vessel with you inside it? Would you instantly kill them when you emerged? Covered in glibly bits and entrails?
This item could be epic with a little imagination lol.
I love this idea! It has some issues that you probably already considered. Whether you have the fork or not the bigger issue is that Plane Shift may not be exact enough to land you directly into that 20'x20' extradimensional space inside the genie vessel. Let's look at the words:
"You and up to eight willing creatures who link hands in a circle are transported to a different plane of existence. You can specify a target destination in general terms, such as the City of Brass on the Elemental Plane of Fire or the palace of Dispater on the second level of the Nine Hells, and you appear inor near that destination. If you are trying to reach the City of Brass,for example,you might arrive in its Street of Steel, before its Gate of Ashes, or looking at the city from across the Sea of Fire, at the GM's discretion.
Doesn't seem very exact and could lead to missing the vessel entirely and ending up on the astral plane somewhere. However, there is an alternative if you keep reading Plane Shift:
"Alternatively, if you know the sigil sequence of a teleportation circle on another plane of existence, this spell can take you to that circle. If the teleportation circle is too small to hold all the creatures you transported, they appear in the closest unoccupied spaces next to the circle."
Good points; definitely worth considering if you're going to allow a player to do this at all!
I doubt I'd personally have a character create a teleportation circle inside his vessel though--there'd be no way to stop anyone else from teleporting in once they know the sequence (which they could learn any number of ways.)
Also, I don't think the extradimensional space inside a genie vessel is a demiplane; that's a 30'x30' space created by an 8th lvl spell.
The pocket dimension seems different than a genie vessel: "The All-Purpose Pocket Dimension is a portable gateway to a private space which is unaffected by the world outside." Whereas the genie vessel seems affected by the world outside being that it can be destroyed and cause all its innards to be deposited outside. What are your guys thoughts?
Well, the space created by the Demiplane is clearly a demiplane; but an extradimensional space doesn't need to be created by that spell in order to be a literal demiplane. Even the Banishment, Maze and Imprisonment spells (among others) make reference to it. From the PHB:
"Demiplanes are small extradimensional spaces with their own unique rules. They are pieces of reality that don’t seem to fit anywhere else. Demiplanes come into being by a variety of means. Some are created by spells, such as demiplane, or generated at the desire of a powerful deity or other force. They may exist naturally, as a fold of existing reality that has been pinched off from the rest of the multiverse, or as a baby universe growing in power."
I'm pretty sure the term "pocket dimension" can be used generically as well.
As far as interacting with Bags of Holding and such, my general rule of thumb as a DM is to just use the generalized item description for such items:
"Placing a bag of holding inside an extradimensional space created by a handy haversack, portable hole, or similar item instantly destroys both items and opens a gate to the Astral Plane."
So if it's a dimensional space intended for the player to spend significant amounts of time in (the interior of a genie vessel, an explicit demiplane created by the Demiplane spell, etc.,) then carrying in a dimensional space created by an item and mainly intended for storage (BoH, Portable Hole, etc.) has no detrimental effect, since the former spaces don't specify that they trigger any such gates.
And just to avoid any paradoxes, if I did allow alternate means of travel to the inside of a genie vessel as a DM, I'd also rule that using those means automatically left the vessel behind in the previous location/plane while the character vanished. If your vessel were a ring, then no "being inside the ring while wearing it" nonsense.
Thanks for the clarification. It can get a bit confusing when different words are used to describe the same thing.
I thought the extradimensional space verbiage from the bag of holding was highlighting an absolute law on all extradimensional spaces going inside other extradimensional spaces, but I think you're right. It's best not to connect the dots of one item/spell/plane if the rule or description doesn't specify the connection. I have seen multiple posts from people who are making the same assumption. One fellow was talking about using the Rope Trick spell and a BOH as a bomb. Doesn't mean they're right but at least I'm not alone in my folly.
I am curious as to what ways you allowed alternate means of travel to the inside of a genie vessel. I have a one shot coming up and I rolled a Warforged Artificer 6 / Warlock 2 with a genie patron. I am interested in maximizing the genie vessel antics if at all possible. I still have time to modify my character in case something cool hooks me. Do you think my artificer could take his steel defender in and out of his vessel? I wouldn't have access to the sanctuary vessel ability at my level but what if he held on to his defender when he went in or out for the day?
Here's another thought; what if I loaded my 20'x20' vessel with rocks and then blew it up above someone...could I crush them with a spontaneous rockslide? You don't have to answer that. I just can't stop trying to think of random alternate uses for a genie vessel lol. Best wishes.
The biggest genie antics I would do if I were you is build a fully functioning artificer lab/work room in your genie vessel. One of the problems with playing a crafting character is finding time to craft while adventuring. With a mobile work station you can do that nad more.
The other antic I have been pulling is moving large objects into my sanctuary for thievery reasons.
I am curious as to what ways you allowed alternate means of travel to the inside of a genie vessel.
Well, I haven't done it yet (no one's played a genie warlock in my campaigns, at least not one where there was enough time or this to crop up.) I'd honestly probably limit it to having to use the Plane Shift, Gate or Wish spells, whether from the character's slots or a scroll/item that they conveniently found. And if I knew that was a possibility, I'd probably setup a simple system for crafting tuning forks too, since there's zero detail about that in the core books. I figure once the players are casting level 7 spells, allowing more frequent entry into the vessel isn't any worse than them casting Demiplane, so why not?
I am curious as to what ways you allowed alternate means of travel to the inside of a genie vessel.
Well, I haven't done it yet (no one's played a genie warlock in my campaigns, at least not one where there was enough time or this to crop up.) I'd honestly probably limit it to having to use the Plane Shift, Gate or Wish spells, whether from the character's slots or a scroll/item that they conveniently found. And if I knew that was a possibility, I'd probably setup a simple system for crafting tuning forks too, since there's zero detail about that in the core books. I figure once the players are casting level 7 spells, allowing more frequent entry into the vessel isn't any worse than them casting Demiplane, so why not?
I like it. The logic is sound. Totally forgot about Gate! I suppose anyone that knew you had a genie vessel and named it as "a precise location" could use the gate spell to enter it without your permission. That would kinda suck. Could give a character a reason to hide their genie connections.
The biggest genie antics I would do if I were you is build a fully functioning artificer lab/work room in your genie vessel. One of the problems with playing a crafting character is finding time to craft while adventuring. With a mobile work station you can do that and more.
The other antic I have been pulling is moving large objects into my sanctuary for thievery reasons.
I love this idea! I like the thievery option too. I wonder what the ruling would be on entering with large objects. Does the warlock just need to touch a thing, hold it, or wear it to vanish into his vessel with it as long as it fits in a 20'x20' space? I'm talking pre sanctuary vessel option because I won't have access to that ability at my level btw.
"As an action, you can magically vanish and enter your vessel, which remains in the space you left. The interior of the vessel is an extradimensional space in the shape of a 20-foot-radius cylinder, 20 feet high, and resembles your vessel. The interior is appointed with cushions and low tables and is a comfortable temperature. While inside, you can hear the area around your vessel as if you were in its space. You can remain inside the vessel up to a number of hours equal to twice your proficiency bonus."
Doesn't seem to specify object transportation rules...
"You exit the vessel early if you use a bonus action to leave, if you die, or if the vessel is destroyed. When you exit the vessel, you appear in the unoccupied space closest to it. Any objects left in the vessel remain there until carried out, and if the vessel is destroyed, every object stored there harmlessly appears in the unoccupied spaces closest to the vessel’s former space."
That could imply that you need to be able to "carry" the items you transport but I'm not sure. That could be bypassed with things that modify strength or shrink objects I reckon. I love thinking outside the box within the confines of the rules to keep things fun and interesting.
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Genie's Vessel has all the hallmarks of a pocket dimension; a demiplane, in D&D terms.
Provided you know how to create an attuned fork for it, you can use the Plane Shift spell to enter a previously-created demiplane.
So, to DMs and warlocks out there: do you think a player should be able to Plane Shift into their own Genie's Vessel, provided they find or create the material component necessary?
If so, how do you think that should interact with the feature's normal limits (the time limit, bringing others with you, etc.)
Sterling - V. Human Bard 3 (College of Art) - [Pic] - [Traits] - in Bards: Dragon Heist (w/ Mansion) - Jasper's [Pic] - Sterling's [Sigil]
Tooltips Post (2024 PHB updates) - incl. General Rules
>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
I think that's a great idea.
At level 1, the Warlock (and possessions) only (as in Bottled Respite).
At level 10, the Warlock and up to five companions (as in Sanctuary Vessel).
Could be a fun surprise for the players when a BBEG plane shifts into their house and starts to throw down...
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Hey, if a player loses his "house key", it's fair game.
Sterling - V. Human Bard 3 (College of Art) - [Pic] - [Traits] - in Bards: Dragon Heist (w/ Mansion) - Jasper's [Pic] - Sterling's [Sigil]
Tooltips Post (2024 PHB updates) - incl. General Rules
>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
Question is, if you plane shift or gate into your vessel while carrying your vessel, what happens?
Just some ideas...
Well the ring doesn't actually have the extradimensional space inside it, it is just the way that you get there, just like it wouldn't break the game to bring a bag of holding to the astral plane.
I'm afraid it does friend ;)
"As an action, you can magically vanish and enter your vessel, which remains in the space you left. The interior of the vessel is an extradimensional space in the shape of a 20-foot-radius cylinder, 20 feet high, and resembles your vessel. The interior is appointed with cushions and low tables and is a comfortable temperature. While inside, you can hear the area around your vessel as if you were in its space. You can remain inside the vessel up to a number of hours equal to twice your proficiency bonus."
Break the game? No, however some would consider placing an extradimensional space in and extradimensional space like placing the vessel in a bag of holding or bringing a bag of holding into your vessel as triggering the bomb.
"Placing a bag of holding inside an extradimensional space created by a handy haversack, portable hole, or similar item instantly destroys both items and opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The gate originates where the one item was placed inside the other. Any creature within 10 feet of the gate is sucked through it to a random location on the Astral Plane. The gate then closes. The gate is one-way only and can’t be reopened.
I love this idea! It has some issues that you probably already considered. Whether you have the fork or not the bigger issue is that Plane Shift may not be exact enough to land you directly into that 20'x20' extradimensional space inside the genie vessel. Let's look at the words:
"You and up to eight willing creatures who link hands in a circle are transported to a different plane of existence. You can specify a target destination in general terms, such as the City of Brass on the Elemental Plane of Fire or the palace of Dispater on the second level of the Nine Hells, and you appear in or near that destination. If you are trying to reach the City of Brass, for example, you might arrive in its Street of Steel, before its Gate of Ashes, or looking at the city from across the Sea of Fire, at the GM's discretion.
Doesn't seem very exact and could lead to missing the vessel entirely and ending up on the astral plane somewhere. However, there is an alternative if you keep reading Plane Shift:
"Alternatively, if you know the sigil sequence of a teleportation circle on another plane of existence, this spell can take you to that circle. If the teleportation circle is too small to hold all the creatures you transported, they appear in the closest unoccupied spaces next to the circle."
Don't get too excited though..."to create a permanent teleportation circle you have to cast the 5th level Teleportation Circle spell in the same location (inside your vessel I'm assuming) every day for one year. Seems like a lot of trouble plus if your vessel is destroyed, every object stored there harmlessly appears in the unoccupied spaces closest to the vessel’s former space which could imply that the place where you made a teleportation circle is gone.
Also, I don't think the extradimensional space inside a genie vessel is a demiplane; that's a 30'x30' space created by an 8th lvl spell.
The pocket dimension seems different than a genie vessel:
"The All-Purpose Pocket Dimension is a portable gateway to a private space which is unaffected by the world outside." Whereas the genie vessel seems affected by the world outside being that it can be destroyed and cause all its innards to be deposited outside. What are your guys thoughts?
So all that said, I think a warlock can try to Plane Shift into their vessel but will run the risk of missing the mark unless a teleportation circle has been set up inside. There are several ways a DM could determine whether they succeed or not. Overall, doesn't seem like the pros outweigh the cons to me unless the vessel was indestructible maybe.
Overall, I love the genie vessel concept.
You can eavesdrop from your vessel, attach it to a creature and go for a ride, take a rest inside while a party member travels, set up a workspace inside to craft and repair items, tie it to a balloon and float it up to an airship, conceal it as a suppository inside a willing or unwilling host, have a party member give it as a gift while you wait inside like a trojan horse, or use sleight of hand to drop it in someone's pocket with you inside, tie it to a bolt or arrow to launch you inside a window or heavily guarded compound.
What if someone swallowed your vessel with you inside it? Would you instantly kill them when you emerged? Covered in glibly bits and entrails?
This item could be epic with a little imagination lol.
Good points; definitely worth considering if you're going to allow a player to do this at all!
I doubt I'd personally have a character create a teleportation circle inside his vessel though--there'd be no way to stop anyone else from teleporting in once they know the sequence (which they could learn any number of ways.)
Well, the space created by the Demiplane is clearly a demiplane; but an extradimensional space doesn't need to be created by that spell in order to be a literal demiplane. Even the Banishment, Maze and Imprisonment spells (among others) make reference to it. From the PHB:
I'm pretty sure the term "pocket dimension" can be used generically as well.
As far as interacting with Bags of Holding and such, my general rule of thumb as a DM is to just use the generalized item description for such items:
So if it's a dimensional space intended for the player to spend significant amounts of time in (the interior of a genie vessel, an explicit demiplane created by the Demiplane spell, etc.,) then carrying in a dimensional space created by an item and mainly intended for storage (BoH, Portable Hole, etc.) has no detrimental effect, since the former spaces don't specify that they trigger any such gates.
And just to avoid any paradoxes, if I did allow alternate means of travel to the inside of a genie vessel as a DM, I'd also rule that using those means automatically left the vessel behind in the previous location/plane while the character vanished. If your vessel were a ring, then no "being inside the ring while wearing it" nonsense.
Sterling - V. Human Bard 3 (College of Art) - [Pic] - [Traits] - in Bards: Dragon Heist (w/ Mansion) - Jasper's [Pic] - Sterling's [Sigil]
Tooltips Post (2024 PHB updates) - incl. General Rules
>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
Thanks for the clarification. It can get a bit confusing when different words are used to describe the same thing.
I thought the extradimensional space verbiage from the bag of holding was highlighting an absolute law on all extradimensional spaces going inside other extradimensional spaces, but I think you're right. It's best not to connect the dots of one item/spell/plane if the rule or description doesn't specify the connection. I have seen multiple posts from people who are making the same assumption. One fellow was talking about using the Rope Trick spell and a BOH as a bomb. Doesn't mean they're right but at least I'm not alone in my folly.
I am curious as to what ways you allowed alternate means of travel to the inside of a genie vessel. I have a one shot coming up and I rolled a Warforged Artificer 6 / Warlock 2 with a genie patron. I am interested in maximizing the genie vessel antics if at all possible. I still have time to modify my character in case something cool hooks me. Do you think my artificer could take his steel defender in and out of his vessel? I wouldn't have access to the sanctuary vessel ability at my level but what if he held on to his defender when he went in or out for the day?
Here's another thought; what if I loaded my 20'x20' vessel with rocks and then blew it up above someone...could I crush them with a spontaneous rockslide? You don't have to answer that. I just can't stop trying to think of random alternate uses for a genie vessel lol. Best wishes.
The biggest genie antics I would do if I were you is build a fully functioning artificer lab/work room in your genie vessel. One of the problems with playing a crafting character is finding time to craft while adventuring. With a mobile work station you can do that nad more.
The other antic I have been pulling is moving large objects into my sanctuary for thievery reasons.
Well, I haven't done it yet (no one's played a genie warlock in my campaigns, at least not one where there was enough time or this to crop up.) I'd honestly probably limit it to having to use the Plane Shift, Gate or Wish spells, whether from the character's slots or a scroll/item that they conveniently found. And if I knew that was a possibility, I'd probably setup a simple system for crafting tuning forks too, since there's zero detail about that in the core books. I figure once the players are casting level 7 spells, allowing more frequent entry into the vessel isn't any worse than them casting Demiplane, so why not?
Sterling - V. Human Bard 3 (College of Art) - [Pic] - [Traits] - in Bards: Dragon Heist (w/ Mansion) - Jasper's [Pic] - Sterling's [Sigil]
Tooltips Post (2024 PHB updates) - incl. General Rules
>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
I like it. The logic is sound. Totally forgot about Gate! I suppose anyone that knew you had a genie vessel and named it as "a precise location" could use the gate spell to enter it without your permission. That would kinda suck. Could give a character a reason to hide their genie connections.
I love this idea! I like the thievery option too. I wonder what the ruling would be on entering with large objects. Does the warlock just need to touch a thing, hold it, or wear it to vanish into his vessel with it as long as it fits in a 20'x20' space? I'm talking pre sanctuary vessel option because I won't have access to that ability at my level btw.
"As an action, you can magically vanish and enter your vessel, which remains in the space you left. The interior of the vessel is an extradimensional space in the shape of a 20-foot-radius cylinder, 20 feet high, and resembles your vessel. The interior is appointed with cushions and low tables and is a comfortable temperature. While inside, you can hear the area around your vessel as if you were in its space. You can remain inside the vessel up to a number of hours equal to twice your proficiency bonus."
Doesn't seem to specify object transportation rules...
"You exit the vessel early if you use a bonus action to leave, if you die, or if the vessel is destroyed. When you exit the vessel, you appear in the unoccupied space closest to it. Any objects left in the vessel remain there until carried out, and if the vessel is destroyed, every object stored there harmlessly appears in the unoccupied spaces closest to the vessel’s former space."
That could imply that you need to be able to "carry" the items you transport but I'm not sure. That could be bypassed with things that modify strength or shrink objects I reckon. I love thinking outside the box within the confines of the rules to keep things fun and interesting.