Does a Warlock gain all of his or her's magical ability from a Pact or is it just the special abilities? In other words. Spellcasting ability come from the arcane research or the "magic bestowed?" As stated in Warlock description: "Your arcane research and the magic bestowed on you by your patron have given you facility with spells. See Spells Rulesfor the general rules of spellcasting and the Spells Listing for the warlock spell list."
I ask, because of Critical Role...no spoiler here but I am curious about the Warlock in the show and his abilities...how each is manifested. I am one episode behind, for anyone who also follows the show. (On episode 61.)
The mechanics of a warlock's pact are deliberately vague. Warlocks clearly do arcane research in addition to being helped by their pact, and they were originally meant to be intelligence casters in 5th edition. Their eldritch invocations feature doesn't mention their pact or patron at all.
Really, it doesn't matter. The details of how your warlock works are for you and your DM to work out. The class is really intended for you to make it your own.
If you're going by what the Player's Handbook says, it's less "not having what it takes" and more wanting access to obscure/forgotten/forbidden forms of magic. But flunking out of wizard school or bard college is as good a backstory for a warlock as any other.
I'm playing a warlock right now who made a pact because he was too lazy to finish wizard school. He knows some spells from his time in school, and the Magic Initiate feat, but everything else came from his patron.
If you're going by what the Player's Handbook says, it's less "not having what it takes" and more wanting access to obscure/forgotten/forbidden forms of magic. B
Well if the warlock can't obtain magic the "normal way", then that implies that he doesn't have what it takes, or he's lazy as Tim said...But being lazy is a subset of not having what it takes (that is, the warlock doesn't have the initiative/discipline that it takes to obtain magic.
Well if the warlock can't obtain magic the "normal way"...
Nobody said they can't. That's just not what they're interested in. Being an artist doesn't mean you didn't have what it takes to be an engineer. Becoming a bard doesn't mean you could've have been a successful wizard.
This is the very first thing you're told about Warlocks in the Player's Handbook:
Warlocks are seekers of the knowledge that lies hidden in the fabric of the multiverse. Through pacts made with mysterious beings of supernatural power, warlocks unlock magical effects both subtle and spectacular. Drawing on the ancient knowledge of beings such as fey nobles, demons, devils, hags, and alien entities of the Far Realm, warlocks piece together arcane secrets to bolster their own power.
If you're interested in really ancient, obscure, non-traditional forms of magic, the natural thing to do is to consult ancient and magical beings.
Like I said, warlock was going to be an INT-based caster class. The only reason it changed was because playtesters wanted it to be CHA-based like in previous editions. Most of the hints that it was INT-based are still there. The class doesn't even have an explanation for why it uses CHA; every other spellcasting class tells you why it uses a certain ability for spellcasting.
If that's how you want Warlocks to work in your own world, that's cool. I don't think the material in the Player's Handbook reflects that.
Well since you're view is reflective of the PH, then I'll frame my opinion in terms of the game mechanics.
From the perspective of point buying stats, you chose the stat which will give your chosen class the greatest benefit, and make it as high as possible. For the Warlock, that stat is CHA, and you will "sacrifice" other stats in the process, such as INT. In doing so, you are limiting your character's ability to be fully effective in another profession.
(yes, I know you are free to distribute the point buy any way you would like, but most people are going to beef up their characters primary stat, unless they have some compelling RP reason not to do so. - e.g. what point would there be in making a barbarian with a 10 STR...)
So to say that a warlock doesn't have what it takes, means the warlock doesn't have a sufficiently high INT score to be an effective wizard, and it' stems from how the mechanics of point buying works.
Well if the warlock can't obtain magic the "normal way"...
Nobody said they can't. That's just not what they're interested in. Being an artist doesn't mean you didn't have what it takes to be an engineer. Becoming a bard doesn't mean you could've have been a successful wizard.
This is the very first thing you're told about Warlocks in the Player's Handbook:
Warlocks are seekers of the knowledge that lies hidden in the fabric of the multiverse. Through pacts made with mysterious beings of supernatural power, warlocks unlock magical effects both subtle and spectacular. Drawing on the ancient knowledge of beings such as fey nobles, demons, devils, hags, and alien entities of the Far Realm, warlocks piece together arcane secrets to bolster their own power.
If you're interested in really ancient, obscure, non-traditional forms of magic, the natural thing to do is to consult ancient and magical beings.
Like I said, warlock was going to be an INT-based caster class. The only reason it changed was because playtesters wanted it to be CHA-based like in previous editions. Most of the hints that it was INT-based are still there. The class doesn't even have an explanation for why it uses CHA; every other spellcasting class tells you why it uses a certain ability for spellcasting.
If that's how you want Warlocks to work in your own world, that's cool. I don't think the material in the Player's Handbook reflects that.
Warlocks are people who were basically made into artifical socercers by a powerful enity. Either deliberately or by accident, the Pact gave them magic. Also, not all Warlocks are scholarly; you can be a some random guy who was apporached/tricked by a Patron.
I personally assume warlocks receive all of their power and abilities from the Patron.
Thematically it makes sense to me. The warlock is looking for outside help because he doesn't have what it takes to be an adventurer on his own.
Oh look, another Warlock hater.
I could just as easily say that Wizards spend all their time reading and studying magic in libraries because they just don't have have what it takes to step up and bargain for power face to face with near-godlike entities from other planes which man wasn't meant to know.
Warlock hater? I'm playing one currently. What I said makes sense to me thematically. They are the the only class that get's their powers without training from an outside source. From my perspective, that's a shortcut. That doesn't mean that I don't think they're an interesting class to play.
Warlock hater? I'm playing one currently. What I said makes sense to me thematically. They are the the only class that get's their powers without training from an outside source. From my perspective, that's a shortcut. That doesn't mean that I don't think they're an interesting class to play.
Ok since this post is turning into something else I will be more direct...if a Warlock's Patron decided a benefactor is no longer worthy of his or her gift, and took said gift away, would a Warlock still be able to do anything magical? Or all magical abilities taken away?
I’ve read two different interpretations of the rules on this. One is that the Warlock doesn’t have to do anything for their patron after 1st level, not only can they keep all of their existing abilities if they tell their patron to get lost, but they can also advance as a Warlock. The other one, that I agree with, is they keep everything they have but they can’t advance any further.
Unlike Clerics and Paladins, Warlocks are taught and/or gifted their abilities permanently. They’re not borrowed and refusing to obey their patron doesn’t result in losing their abilities.
I’ve read two different interpretations of the rules on this. One is that the Warlock doesn’t have to do anything for their patron after 1st level, not only can they keep all of their existing abilities if they tell their patron to get lost, but they can also advance as a Warlock. The other one, that I agree with, is they keep everything they have but they can’t advance any further.
Unlike Clerics and Paladins, Warlocks are taught and/or gifted their abilities permanently. They’re not borrowed and refusing to obey their patron doesn’t result in losing their abilities.
Thats been discussed at length.
I haven't seen any definitive rulings on this (in any edition) so my DM and I came to similar conclusions in most campaigns. Warlock gifts are permanent; parting ways with one's patron prevents further advancement.
However, it's possible to find a new patron. It's not necessarily a good idea; your old patron will be jealous and your knew one will worry you're not trustworthy. But nobody ever said being a warlock was easy, am I right?
I think that warlocks should rarely have good wisdom scores. Making a pact with an evil or chaotic being is just asking for trouble.
Thank you everyone for your thoughts. I think my question has been answered quite well. The inevitable, all powerful, House Rule can apply. I particularly agree with this last comment, as I love the idea of a Warlock but in the game that I play in, most of the players prefer less role playing so Charisma is an ability that is rarely appreciated. Wisdom seems to be more important in our game. I do not know what everyone else thinks but when attacked by spells it really seems like I am making either a Dex or Wis check 80% of the time. I have only had to make a Charisma check once...lol....in fact as I type this I am listening to Critical Role and he just made some of the players make a Wisdom saving throw...I know a debate will pop up. How important Constitution is for maintaining concentration, etc...but I have done well with my high Wisdom for 2 years...thanks!
Part of D&D is picking what your strengths are and what your weaknesses are. It’s impossible to be good at everything, that’s why we have teammates. In my experience, I’ve never played a character who didn’t have to do something that he was bad at at least once and I’ve also never played a character who didn’t get to use his strengths at least once.
Pick up Banishment at 7th level and watch your DM’s jaw drop when you use it against an ultra powerful monster that has a low charisma.....
Part of D&D is picking what your strengths are and what your weaknesses are. It’s impossible to be good at everything, that’s why we have teammates. In my experience, I’ve never played a character who didn’t have to do something that he was bad at at least once and I’ve also never played a character who didn’t get to use his strengths at least once.
Pick up Banishment at 7th level and watch your DM’s jaw drop when you use it against an ultra powerful monster that has a low charisma.....
Banishment is cool, but would be a lot more impressive if it was permanent, or at least lasted 1 full day. Since it only lasts 1 minute, it really only gives you time to escape, and it doesn't rule out the possibility that the monster could track you down once it returns.
Part of D&D is picking what your strengths are and what your weaknesses are. It’s impossible to be good at everything, that’s why we have teammates. In my experience, I’ve never played a character who didn’t have to do something that he was bad at at least once and I’ve also never played a character who didn’t get to use his strengths at least once.
Pick up Banishment at 7th level and watch your DM’s jaw drop when you use it against an ultra powerful monster that has a low charisma.....
Banishment is cool, but would be a lot more impressive if it was permanent, or at least lasted 1 full day. Since it only lasts 1 minute, it really only gives you time to escape, and it doesn't rule out the possibility that the monster could track you down once it returns.
Banishment is permanent when the target isn't on it's home plane. The target is sent back home and has to find a way back if it wants to return.
It doesn't last very long, but it lasts long enough for your party to wipe out the target's allies so you can prepare for it to return and focus on it exclusively. Plus when you cast it using a 5th level spell slot it targets 2 opponents instead of 1 which makes it much more likely to work.
Does a Warlock gain all of his or her's magical ability from a Pact or is it just the special abilities? In other words. Spellcasting ability come from the arcane research or the "magic bestowed?" As stated in Warlock description: "Your arcane research and the magic bestowed on you by your patron have given you facility with spells. See Spells Rulesfor the general rules of spellcasting and the Spells Listing for the warlock spell list."
I ask, because of Critical Role...no spoiler here but I am curious about the Warlock in the show and his abilities...how each is manifested. I am one episode behind, for anyone who also follows the show. (On episode 61.)
The mechanics of a warlock's pact are deliberately vague. Warlocks clearly do arcane research in addition to being helped by their pact, and they were originally meant to be intelligence casters in 5th edition. Their eldritch invocations feature doesn't mention their pact or patron at all.
Really, it doesn't matter. The details of how your warlock works are for you and your DM to work out. The class is really intended for you to make it your own.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I personally assume warlocks receive all of their power and abilities from the Patron.
Thematically it makes sense to me. The warlock is looking for outside help because he doesn't have what it takes to be an adventurer on his own.
If you're going by what the Player's Handbook says, it's less "not having what it takes" and more wanting access to obscure/forgotten/forbidden forms of magic. But flunking out of wizard school or bard college is as good a backstory for a warlock as any other.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I'm playing a warlock right now who made a pact because he was too lazy to finish wizard school. He knows some spells from his time in school, and the Magic Initiate feat, but everything else came from his patron.
Professional computer geek
Well if the warlock can't obtain magic the "normal way", then that implies that he doesn't have what it takes, or he's lazy as Tim said...But being lazy is a subset of not having what it takes (that is, the warlock doesn't have the initiative/discipline that it takes to obtain magic.
Nobody said they can't. That's just not what they're interested in. Being an artist doesn't mean you didn't have what it takes to be an engineer. Becoming a bard doesn't mean you could've have been a successful wizard.
This is the very first thing you're told about Warlocks in the Player's Handbook:
If you're interested in really ancient, obscure, non-traditional forms of magic, the natural thing to do is to consult ancient and magical beings.
Like I said, warlock was going to be an INT-based caster class. The only reason it changed was because playtesters wanted it to be CHA-based like in previous editions. Most of the hints that it was INT-based are still there. The class doesn't even have an explanation for why it uses CHA; every other spellcasting class tells you why it uses a certain ability for spellcasting.
If that's how you want Warlocks to work in your own world, that's cool. I don't think the material in the Player's Handbook reflects that.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Well since you're view is reflective of the PH, then I'll frame my opinion in terms of the game mechanics.
From the perspective of point buying stats, you chose the stat which will give your chosen class the greatest benefit, and make it as high as possible. For the Warlock, that stat is CHA, and you will "sacrifice" other stats in the process, such as INT. In doing so, you are limiting your character's ability to be fully effective in another profession.
(yes, I know you are free to distribute the point buy any way you would like, but most people are going to beef up their characters primary stat, unless they have some compelling RP reason not to do so. - e.g. what point would there be in making a barbarian with a 10 STR...)
So to say that a warlock doesn't have what it takes, means the warlock doesn't have a sufficiently high INT score to be an effective wizard, and it' stems from how the mechanics of point buying works.
Warlocks are people who were basically made into artifical socercers by a powerful enity. Either deliberately or by accident, the Pact gave them magic. Also, not all Warlocks are scholarly; you can be a some random guy who was apporached/tricked by a Patron.
Watch out! It's the Fiddle Diddler!
Oh look, another Warlock hater.
I could just as easily say that Wizards spend all their time reading and studying magic in libraries because they just don't have have what it takes to step up and bargain for power face to face with near-godlike entities from other planes which man wasn't meant to know.
Buncha wimps.
DICE FALL, EVERYONE ROCKS!
Warlock hater? I'm playing one currently. What I said makes sense to me thematically. They are the the only class that get's their powers without training from an outside source. From my perspective, that's a shortcut. That doesn't mean that I don't think they're an interesting class to play.
Quote from JackOfAllTirades >>
You can talk about your own character all you want. To say that an entire class "doesn't have what it takes" is a rather harsh put-down, IMHO.
DICE FALL, EVERYONE ROCKS!
Ok since this post is turning into something else I will be more direct...if a Warlock's Patron decided a benefactor is no longer worthy of his or her gift, and took said gift away, would a Warlock still be able to do anything magical? Or all magical abilities taken away?
I’ve read two different interpretations of the rules on this. One is that the Warlock doesn’t have to do anything for their patron after 1st level, not only can they keep all of their existing abilities if they tell their patron to get lost, but they can also advance as a Warlock. The other one, that I agree with, is they keep everything they have but they can’t advance any further.
Unlike Clerics and Paladins, Warlocks are taught and/or gifted their abilities permanently. They’re not borrowed and refusing to obey their patron doesn’t result in losing their abilities.
Thats been discussed at length.
Professional computer geek
I haven't seen any definitive rulings on this (in any edition) so my DM and I came to similar conclusions in most campaigns. Warlock gifts are permanent; parting ways with one's patron prevents further advancement.
However, it's possible to find a new patron. It's not necessarily a good idea; your old patron will be jealous and your knew one will worry you're not trustworthy. But nobody ever said being a warlock was easy, am I right?
DICE FALL, EVERYONE ROCKS!
I think that warlocks should rarely have good wisdom scores. Making a pact with an evil or chaotic being is just asking for trouble.
Professional computer geek
Thank you everyone for your thoughts. I think my question has been answered quite well. The inevitable, all powerful, House Rule can apply. I particularly agree with this last comment, as I love the idea of a Warlock but in the game that I play in, most of the players prefer less role playing so Charisma is an ability that is rarely appreciated. Wisdom seems to be more important in our game. I do not know what everyone else thinks but when attacked by spells it really seems like I am making either a Dex or Wis check 80% of the time. I have only had to make a Charisma check once...lol....in fact as I type this I am listening to Critical Role and he just made some of the players make a Wisdom saving throw...I know a debate will pop up. How important Constitution is for maintaining concentration, etc...but I have done well with my high Wisdom for 2 years...thanks!
Part of D&D is picking what your strengths are and what your weaknesses are. It’s impossible to be good at everything, that’s why we have teammates. In my experience, I’ve never played a character who didn’t have to do something that he was bad at at least once and I’ve also never played a character who didn’t get to use his strengths at least once.
Pick up Banishment at 7th level and watch your DM’s jaw drop when you use it against an ultra powerful monster that has a low charisma.....
Professional computer geek
Banishment is cool, but would be a lot more impressive if it was permanent, or at least lasted 1 full day. Since it only lasts 1 minute, it really only gives you time to escape, and it doesn't rule out the possibility that the monster could track you down once it returns.
Banishment is permanent when the target isn't on it's home plane. The target is sent back home and has to find a way back if it wants to return.
It doesn't last very long, but it lasts long enough for your party to wipe out the target's allies so you can prepare for it to return and focus on it exclusively. Plus when you cast it using a 5th level spell slot it targets 2 opponents instead of 1 which makes it much more likely to work.
Professional computer geek