We're about to start a new campaign and I'm not sure of what to do. The first fighter level is granting me a lot of interesting proficiencies, but I'm afraid of not being worth it if you compared it to losing a wizard level. We're going to start with a random adventure and go to Barovia at level 3.
Stats: Str 8/Dex 16/Con 14/Int 16/Wis 14/Cha 10. We're all Aasimars with custom origin, so that's why I have high Dex and Int.
We have an Astral Monk, a Paladin, a Light Cleric and a Bard.
Fighter 1 doesn’t add anything to Bladesinger besides a Fighting style and CON prof. You cannot use medium or heavy amor, neither a shield. Go full Wizard, prioritize DEX > INT > CON and enjoy.
Fighter 1 doesn’t add anything to Bladesinger besides a Fighting style and CON prof. You cannot use medium or heavy amor, neither a shield. Go full Wizard, prioritize DEX > INT > CON and enjoy.
Fighting style and Con is pretty darn good to have if you're a wizard. All you are giving up (assuming level 20) is an extra third level spell once a day. Defence or dueling are fantastic for Bladesingers.
Those four extra hit points are nothing to scoff at either, especially if you like to roll for HP. :)
If you're going to dip into fighter, at least go 2 levels and pick up action surge. That will be pretty lethal on a bladesinger. If all you want is Con and a Fighting style, start with a 1 level dip into artificer. That will give you the con save proficiency and it will preserve your spell progression. Then, if you really want you could drop a feat and pick up a fighting style. When multiclassing as a wizard, you need to think about your spell progression as that is really what you'll be trading off. Few campaigns ever reach Tier 3 (levels 15+) of play, so considering what you'll get at level 20 isn't something you should really consider too much. Even if you do reach those levels, chances are you'll only be there for a short time. So you have to think: "Is dipping into fighter for 2 levels worth delaying 3rd level spell slots for 2 levels?".
If you're going to dip into fighter, at least go 2 levels and pick up action surge. That will be pretty lethal on a bladesinger. If all you want is Con and a Fighting style, start with a 1 level dip into artificer. That will give you the con save proficiency and it will preserve your spell progression. Then, if you really want you could drop a feat and pick up a fighting style. When multiclassing as a wizard, you need to think about your spell progression as that is really what you'll be trading off. Few campaigns ever reach Tier 3 (levels 15+) of play, so considering what you'll get at level 20 isn't something you should really consider too much. Even if you do reach those levels, chances are you'll only be there for a short time. So you have to think: "Is dipping into fighter for 2 levels worth delaying 3rd level spell slots for 2 levels?".
This only works if the DM allows gunpowder weapons which seems to be quite rare.
If you're going to dip into fighter, at least go 2 levels and pick up action surge. That will be pretty lethal on a bladesinger. If all you want is Con and a Fighting style, start with a 1 level dip into artificer. That will give you the con save proficiency and it will preserve your spell progression. Then, if you really want you could drop a feat and pick up a fighting style. When multiclassing as a wizard, you need to think about your spell progression as that is really what you'll be trading off. Few campaigns ever reach Tier 3 (levels 15+) of play, so considering what you'll get at level 20 isn't something you should really consider too much. Even if you do reach those levels, chances are you'll only be there for a short time. So you have to think: "Is dipping into fighter for 2 levels worth delaying 3rd level spell slots for 2 levels?".
This only works if the DM allows gunpowder weapons which seems to be quite rare.
Why? Artificers are not required to wield firearms, despite what memes say. None of the artificer's subclasses/abilities suggest they have to use firearms, or other things that require gunpowder.
If you're going to dip into fighter, at least go 2 levels and pick up action surge. That will be pretty lethal on a bladesinger. If all you want is Con and a Fighting style, start with a 1 level dip into artificer. That will give you the con save proficiency and it will preserve your spell progression. Then, if you really want you could drop a feat and pick up a fighting style. When multiclassing as a wizard, you need to think about your spell progression as that is really what you'll be trading off. Few campaigns ever reach Tier 3 (levels 15+) of play, so considering what you'll get at level 20 isn't something you should really consider too much. Even if you do reach those levels, chances are you'll only be there for a short time. So you have to think: "Is dipping into fighter for 2 levels worth delaying 3rd level spell slots for 2 levels?".
You're also delaying extra attack by two levels as well. I know bladesingers are feat intensive but if you want a fighting style, there's a feat you can take for that.
I actually did this for my own bladesinger. It's not bad, and I like how things turned out ... But I wouldn't do it again.
The con proficiency kinda goes to waste because you have super high AC. You're likely to be one of the last targets in your DMs sights. So concentration isn't in much danger.
All that leaves is the fighting style. I picked dueling and it's not bad. Ultimately, the reason you dip fighter is for that action surge. But you do experience delays.
If you're going to dip into fighter, at least go 2 levels and pick up action surge. That will be pretty lethal on a bladesinger. If all you want is Con and a Fighting style, start with a 1 level dip into artificer. That will give you the con save proficiency and it will preserve your spell progression. Then, if you really want you could drop a feat and pick up a fighting style. When multiclassing as a wizard, you need to think about your spell progression as that is really what you'll be trading off. Few campaigns ever reach Tier 3 (levels 15+) of play, so considering what you'll get at level 20 isn't something you should really consider too much. Even if you do reach those levels, chances are you'll only be there for a short time. So you have to think: "Is dipping into fighter for 2 levels worth delaying 3rd level spell slots for 2 levels?".
This only works if the DM allows gunpowder weapons which seems to be quite rare.
Why? Artificers are not required to wield firearms, despite what memes say. None of the artificer's subclasses/abilities suggest they have to use firearms, or other things that require gunpowder.
Otherwise they won't qualify for the Fighting Initiate feat. Or I guess it depends on which "one handed weapon" you get proficiency in.
If you're going to dip into fighter, at least go 2 levels and pick up action surge. That will be pretty lethal on a bladesinger. If all you want is Con and a Fighting style, start with a 1 level dip into artificer. That will give you the con save proficiency and it will preserve your spell progression. Then, if you really want you could drop a feat and pick up a fighting style. When multiclassing as a wizard, you need to think about your spell progression as that is really what you'll be trading off. Few campaigns ever reach Tier 3 (levels 15+) of play, so considering what you'll get at level 20 isn't something you should really consider too much. Even if you do reach those levels, chances are you'll only be there for a short time. So you have to think: "Is dipping into fighter for 2 levels worth delaying 3rd level spell slots for 2 levels?".
This only works if the DM allows gunpowder weapons which seems to be quite rare.
Why? Artificers are not required to wield firearms, despite what memes say. None of the artificer's subclasses/abilities suggest they have to use firearms, or other things that require gunpowder.
Otherwise they won't qualify for the Fighting Initiate feat. Or I guess it depends on which "one handed weapon" you get proficiency in.
I mean with bladesinger chances are you're taking a rapier for your weapon which would qualify. And honestly I don't think that a feat for a fighting style would be worth it. Your first few ASIs should be too max out Dex, beyond that you could bump int, or pick up something like elven accuracy or lucky if your DM allows. Even something like mobile would be a better feat to take on a bladesinger in my opinion. But that wouldn't be until you hit 12th level wizard.
If you're going to dip into fighter, at least go 2 levels and pick up action surge. That will be pretty lethal on a bladesinger. If all you want is Con and a Fighting style, start with a 1 level dip into artificer. That will give you the con save proficiency and it will preserve your spell progression. Then, if you really want you could drop a feat and pick up a fighting style. When multiclassing as a wizard, you need to think about your spell progression as that is really what you'll be trading off. Few campaigns ever reach Tier 3 (levels 15+) of play, so considering what you'll get at level 20 isn't something you should really consider too much. Even if you do reach those levels, chances are you'll only be there for a short time. So you have to think: "Is dipping into fighter for 2 levels worth delaying 3rd level spell slots for 2 levels?".
This only works if the DM allows gunpowder weapons which seems to be quite rare.
Why? Artificers are not required to wield firearms, despite what memes say. None of the artificer's subclasses/abilities suggest they have to use firearms, or other things that require gunpowder.
Otherwise they won't qualify for the Fighting Initiate feat. Or I guess it depends on which "one handed weapon" you get proficiency in.
I mean with bladesinger chances are you're taking a rapier for your weapon which would qualify. And honestly I don't think that a feat for a fighting style would be worth it. Your first few ASIs should be too max out Dex, beyond that you could bump int, or pick up something like elven accuracy or lucky if your DM allows. Even something like mobile would be a better feat to take on a bladesinger in my opinion. But that wouldn't be until you hit 12th level wizard.
You were the one bringing up taking a feat to pick up a fighting style...
If you're going to dip into fighter, at least go 2 levels and pick up action surge. That will be pretty lethal on a bladesinger. If all you want is Con and a Fighting style, start with a 1 level dip into artificer. That will give you the con save proficiency and it will preserve your spell progression. Then, if you really want you could drop a feat and pick up a fighting style. When multiclassing as a wizard, you need to think about your spell progression as that is really what you'll be trading off. Few campaigns ever reach Tier 3 (levels 15+) of play, so considering what you'll get at level 20 isn't something you should really consider too much. Even if you do reach those levels, chances are you'll only be there for a short time. So you have to think: "Is dipping into fighter for 2 levels worth delaying 3rd level spell slots for 2 levels?".
This only works if the DM allows gunpowder weapons which seems to be quite rare.
Why? Artificers are not required to wield firearms, despite what memes say. None of the artificer's subclasses/abilities suggest they have to use firearms, or other things that require gunpowder.
Otherwise they won't qualify for the Fighting Initiate feat. Or I guess it depends on which "one handed weapon" you get proficiency in.
I mean with bladesinger chances are you're taking a rapier for your weapon which would qualify. And honestly I don't think that a feat for a fighting style would be worth it. Your first few ASIs should be too max out Dex, beyond that you could bump int, or pick up something like elven accuracy or lucky if your DM allows. Even something like mobile would be a better feat to take on a bladesinger in my opinion. But that wouldn't be until you hit 12th level wizard.
You were the one bringing up taking a feat to pick up a fighting style...
I think the question I have about this is; what do gunpowder weapons have to do with Artificers, Wizards, Bladesingers or fighting style feats? Is it possible you are mistaking Artificers for Gunslingers? This could absolutely be on me. I may just not understand the logic here.
People already replied, but just to reinforce why you should never multiclass as a Bladesinger, specially in Fighter:
- You can get prof in CON saves with a feat, which is totally viable as vHuman or Custom Lineage; let’s not forget that Bladesingers already have a good bonus in Concentration checks - Although Fighting styles are good, they don’t add that much to compensate your spell progression lost each level. All amazing spells one level later. Even your extra attack only at level 7. This sucks.
Assuming a basic setup of DEX 18 and INT 16 at level 6 and no magic items, you could have an AC of 23 with Mage Armor, Haste and Bladesong, plus the ability to attack 3 times.
Assuming a basic setup of DEX 18 and INT 16 at level 6 and no magic items, you could have an AC of 23 with Mage Armor, Haste and Bladesong, plus the ability to attack 3 times.
I don't know if it's worth hasting yourself, nor to increase DEX over INT. Sure, you're a wizard that can use melee thanks to cantrip extra attack, but you're primarily a wizard, and focusing on increasing your spell DC should take priority as that also helps increase our CON check while in bladesong.
Let's also be pragmatic, you could either haste yourself for another weak rapier attack, or you could haste that raging GWM barbarian or the paladin for another chance to crit fish, or the fighter who's utilizing stronger weapons to begin with! I'd only say it's worth hasting yourself if you have a lenient DM who's ruled it's okay to use your hasted attack to replace it with another cantrip attack.
I politely disagree. And I’m playing a dedicated melee Bladesinger myself. Right now he has Flame-Tongue Scimitar that I use in conjunction with a +1 Shortsword. 4 attacks per round is making my damage pretty consistent.
But even before my generous DM handed some magic items to my group, my Bladesinger was contributing big time in the damage area. My main strategy was:
Round 1: Activate Bladesong with bonus action and cast Haste with main action.
Round 2+: Main attack with Booming Blade and regular second extra attack. If the Booming Blade attack was successful, then my priority was to step aside to make my enemy move and eat a +2d8 damage.
Some ways to accomplish that were: - Simply disengage with the extra action from Haste - Teleport out of range with a lovely Misty Step
3d6 (Flame-Tongue Scimitar) + 4 (Dex) x 3 + 1d8 (Booming Blade bonus) + 2d8 (Booming Blade if opponent moves) is pretty reliable.
Things were getting crazy once a Sorcerer joined our group and started twinning Haste. My Bladesinger then was free to upcast Shadow Blade… GWM Barbarian was super jealous.
I mean, sure, your math does say your damage is reliable...
However, you also prove my point an in indirect fashion. If your GWM barb took that feat at lvl 4 and is stuck with a +3 STR mod, well, that's still 2d6+3+3(rage)+10, or about 23 per hit on average. if you hasted him, he'd do about 69 DPR, which outdoes your average of 56 DPR if (and only if) you get your booming blade bonus damage every round.
Yes, you show that with a generous DM it can be worth hasting yourself and you have another caster in the party to take care of things like battlefield control and buffing, but even then you're no longer buffing yourself. But most campaigns can't count on those conditions being met, so what I'm saying holds true in most instances.
You are just saying the obvious: of course a GWM Barbarian DPR will be fantastic. We heard this story since 2015. Same for the PAM Sentinel Fighter or any Hexblade Paladin.
What I am saying is that a well built Bladesinger can be a force to be reckon in the battlefield not because Hypnotic Pattern or Fireball.
For the record, I don't actually think a PAM+Sentinel fighter is that good. Now, PAM+GWM fighter, that's really good!
Anyways,
Yes, you did show a bladesinger can be formidable as a melee combatant. I'm only stating that there are more efficient options out there. This does not mean your decision was bad nor poor. You got great results, that's good. My position remains most bladesingers would benefit from a more traditional approach.
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We're about to start a new campaign and I'm not sure of what to do. The first fighter level is granting me a lot of interesting proficiencies, but I'm afraid of not being worth it if you compared it to losing a wizard level. We're going to start with a random adventure and go to Barovia at level 3.
Stats: Str 8/Dex 16/Con 14/Int 16/Wis 14/Cha 10. We're all Aasimars with custom origin, so that's why I have high Dex and Int.
We have an Astral Monk, a Paladin, a Light Cleric and a Bard.
Fighter 1 doesn’t add anything to Bladesinger besides a Fighting style and CON prof. You cannot use medium or heavy amor, neither a shield. Go full Wizard, prioritize DEX > INT > CON and enjoy.
Fighting style and Con is pretty darn good to have if you're a wizard. All you are giving up (assuming level 20) is an extra third level spell once a day. Defence or dueling are fantastic for Bladesingers.
Those four extra hit points are nothing to scoff at either, especially if you like to roll for HP. :)
If you're going to dip into fighter, at least go 2 levels and pick up action surge. That will be pretty lethal on a bladesinger. If all you want is Con and a Fighting style, start with a 1 level dip into artificer. That will give you the con save proficiency and it will preserve your spell progression. Then, if you really want you could drop a feat and pick up a fighting style. When multiclassing as a wizard, you need to think about your spell progression as that is really what you'll be trading off. Few campaigns ever reach Tier 3 (levels 15+) of play, so considering what you'll get at level 20 isn't something you should really consider too much. Even if you do reach those levels, chances are you'll only be there for a short time. So you have to think: "Is dipping into fighter for 2 levels worth delaying 3rd level spell slots for 2 levels?".
This only works if the DM allows gunpowder weapons which seems to be quite rare.
Why? Artificers are not required to wield firearms, despite what memes say. None of the artificer's subclasses/abilities suggest they have to use firearms, or other things that require gunpowder.
You're also delaying extra attack by two levels as well. I know bladesingers are feat intensive but if you want a fighting style, there's a feat you can take for that.
I actually did this for my own bladesinger. It's not bad, and I like how things turned out ... But I wouldn't do it again.
The con proficiency kinda goes to waste because you have super high AC. You're likely to be one of the last targets in your DMs sights. So concentration isn't in much danger.
All that leaves is the fighting style. I picked dueling and it's not bad. Ultimately, the reason you dip fighter is for that action surge. But you do experience delays.
If I built a new bladesinger, I'd do it straight.
Otherwise they won't qualify for the Fighting Initiate feat. Or I guess it depends on which "one handed weapon" you get proficiency in.
I mean with bladesinger chances are you're taking a rapier for your weapon which would qualify. And honestly I don't think that a feat for a fighting style would be worth it. Your first few ASIs should be too max out Dex, beyond that you could bump int, or pick up something like elven accuracy or lucky if your DM allows. Even something like mobile would be a better feat to take on a bladesinger in my opinion. But that wouldn't be until you hit 12th level wizard.
You were the one bringing up taking a feat to pick up a fighting style...
I think the question I have about this is; what do gunpowder weapons have to do with Artificers, Wizards, Bladesingers or fighting style feats? Is it possible you are mistaking Artificers for Gunslingers? This could absolutely be on me. I may just not understand the logic here.
People already replied, but just to reinforce why you should never multiclass as a Bladesinger, specially in Fighter:
- You can get prof in CON saves with a feat, which is totally viable as vHuman or Custom Lineage; let’s not forget that Bladesingers already have a good bonus in Concentration checks
- Although Fighting styles are good, they don’t add that much to compensate your spell progression lost each level. All amazing spells one level later. Even your extra attack only at level 7. This sucks.
Thanks a lot for all your feedback, everyone!
I decided to go full Wizard and hope for the best
Assuming a basic setup of DEX 18 and INT 16 at level 6 and no magic items, you could have an AC of 23 with Mage Armor, Haste and Bladesong, plus the ability to attack 3 times.
I don't know if it's worth hasting yourself, nor to increase DEX over INT. Sure, you're a wizard that can use melee thanks to cantrip extra attack, but you're primarily a wizard, and focusing on increasing your spell DC should take priority as that also helps increase our CON check while in bladesong.
Let's also be pragmatic, you could either haste yourself for another weak rapier attack, or you could haste that raging GWM barbarian or the paladin for another chance to crit fish, or the fighter who's utilizing stronger weapons to begin with! I'd only say it's worth hasting yourself if you have a lenient DM who's ruled it's okay to use your hasted attack to replace it with another cantrip attack.
I politely disagree. And I’m playing a dedicated melee Bladesinger myself. Right now he has Flame-Tongue Scimitar that I use in conjunction with a +1 Shortsword. 4 attacks per round is making my damage pretty consistent.
But even before my generous DM handed some magic items to my group, my Bladesinger was contributing big time in the damage area. My main strategy was:
Round 1: Activate Bladesong with bonus action and cast Haste with main action.
Round 2+: Main attack with Booming Blade and regular second extra attack. If the Booming Blade attack was successful, then my priority was to step aside to make my enemy move and eat a +2d8 damage.
Some ways to accomplish that were:
- Simply disengage with the extra action from Haste
- Teleport out of range with a lovely Misty Step
3d6 (Flame-Tongue Scimitar) + 4 (Dex) x 3 + 1d8 (Booming Blade bonus) + 2d8 (Booming Blade if opponent moves) is pretty reliable.
Things were getting crazy once a Sorcerer joined our group and started twinning Haste. My Bladesinger then was free to upcast Shadow Blade… GWM Barbarian was super jealous.
I mean, sure, your math does say your damage is reliable...
However, you also prove my point an in indirect fashion. If your GWM barb took that feat at lvl 4 and is stuck with a +3 STR mod, well, that's still 2d6+3+3(rage)+10, or about 23 per hit on average. if you hasted him, he'd do about 69 DPR, which outdoes your average of 56 DPR if (and only if) you get your booming blade bonus damage every round.
Yes, you show that with a generous DM it can be worth hasting yourself and you have another caster in the party to take care of things like battlefield control and buffing, but even then you're no longer buffing yourself. But most campaigns can't count on those conditions being met, so what I'm saying holds true in most instances.
You are just saying the obvious: of course a GWM Barbarian DPR will be fantastic. We heard this story since 2015. Same for the PAM Sentinel Fighter or any Hexblade Paladin.
What I am saying is that a well built Bladesinger can be a force to be reckon in the battlefield not because Hypnotic Pattern or Fireball.
For the record, I don't actually think a PAM+Sentinel fighter is that good. Now, PAM+GWM fighter, that's really good!
Anyways,
Yes, you did show a bladesinger can be formidable as a melee combatant. I'm only stating that there are more efficient options out there. This does not mean your decision was bad nor poor. You got great results, that's good. My position remains most bladesingers would benefit from a more traditional approach.