Had some questions regarding Temporal Shunt (TS) and was wondering if the community might be able to share some rule adjudications used at the table. Primarily, I'm asking because I'm playing a Chronurgy Wizard in a friend's game and would like to know some of the interpretations to my questions considering that there don't seem to be any answers within Sage Advice. First, let me paste the spell so that we're all on the same page:
You target the triggering creature, which must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or vanish, being thrown to another point in time and causing the attack to miss or the spell to be wasted. At the start of its next turn, the target reappears where it was or in the closest unoccupied space. The target doesn’t remember you casting the spell or being affected by it.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 6th level or higher, you can target one additional creature for each slot level above 5th. All targets must be within 30 feet of each other.
Questions:
Can this spell be used in situations where a counterspell would not be possible? (eg: A caster is using a magic item to cast a spell)?
When you cast TS with a spell slot of 6th level or higher, does only the triggering creature make a saving throw for the entire group or do all the creatures get a saving throw?
Lastly, if we assume that every creature involved with an TS cast at a higher level fails their save, when do the creatures that were banished with the triggering creature reappear? Do they appear at the start of their respective turns or do they appear at the start of the triggering creature's turn? The latter seems very powerful, but looking at the wording, I can't find any reason to refute that interpretation?
2. It says at higher levels you target additional creatures, so each target gets it's own save.
3. Again they refer to the target, and since each one is a target they return on their respective turns.
1. (not sure I understand this question correctly the way you have it worded) Not just TS but any spell can be cast in a situation where counterspell isn't possible. Counterspell doesn't have to be possible to cast a spell.
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I think it is worth upcasting, but not in the direction you'd initally assume. I would upcast this to target party members who were either low on health, or concentrating on something that we needed to keep up. It would also be useful if a creature has used its full move speed to be within 5ft of only 1 of your allys.
In this sceneario, your friend is gone until the start of their turn when they get to take their full turn. This means they cannot be targeted by any enemies during that time.
I think it is worth upcasting, but not in the direction you'd initally assume. I would upcast this to target party members who were either low on health, or concentrating on something that we needed to keep up. It would also be useful if a creature has used its full move speed to be within 5ft of only 1 of your allys.
In this sceneario, your friend is gone until the start of their turn when they get to take their full turn. This means they cannot be targeted by any enemies during that time.
You can't do that though. The spell specifically says the targets must be attacking or casting a spell, either of which fail afterwards. And it doesn't say targets can choose to fail the saving throw.
This would be a terrible defensive spell for your allies.
I think it is worth upcasting, but not in the direction you'd initally assume. I would upcast this to target party members who were either low on health, or concentrating on something that we needed to keep up. It would also be useful if a creature has used its full move speed to be within 5ft of only 1 of your allys.
In this sceneario, your friend is gone until the start of their turn when they get to take their full turn. This means they cannot be targeted by any enemies during that time.
You can't do that though. The spell specifically says the targets must be attacking or casting a spell, either of which fail afterwards. And it doesn't say targets can choose to fail the saving throw.
This would be a terrible defensive spell for your allies.
The Trigger is someone attacking or casting a spell, then you target the triggering creature. The upcast allows you to target other creatures along side the triggering creature, nothing says that the additional targets have to trigger this spell as well because that wouldn't make sense. We don't have multiple creatures attacking at the same time.
This can be used defensively quite well if it is played right. Maybe you have an ally who got put into a bad situation (ex. surrounded by enemies), shunting their first attack and them off the field until the start of their next turn might just save them from being downed.
I think it is worth upcasting, but not in the direction you'd initally assume. I would upcast this to target party members who were either low on health, or concentrating on something that we needed to keep up. It would also be useful if a creature has used its full move speed to be within 5ft of only 1 of your allys.
In this sceneario, your friend is gone until the start of their turn when they get to take their full turn. This means they cannot be targeted by any enemies during that time.
You can't do that though. The spell specifically says the targets must be attacking or casting a spell, either of which fail afterwards. And it doesn't say targets can choose to fail the saving throw.
This would be a terrible defensive spell for your allies.
The Trigger is someone attacking or casting a spell, then you target the triggering creature. The upcast allows you to target other creatures along side the triggering creature, nothing says that the additional targets have to trigger this spell as well because that wouldn't make sense. We don't have multiple creatures attacking at the same time.
This can be used defensively quite well if it is played right. Maybe you have an ally who got put into a bad situation (ex. surrounded by enemies), shunting their first attack and them off the field until the start of their next turn might just save them from being downed.
Except they have to fail a Wisdom saving throw for it to work. The spell does not say anything about a willing creature, like Polymorph. RAW you can't just choose to fail a saving throw unless that option is specified in the spell.
I think it is worth upcasting, but not in the direction you'd initally assume. I would upcast this to target party members who were either low on health, or concentrating on something that we needed to keep up. It would also be useful if a creature has used its full move speed to be within 5ft of only 1 of your allys.
In this sceneario, your friend is gone until the start of their turn when they get to take their full turn. This means they cannot be targeted by any enemies during that time.
You can't do that though. The spell specifically says the targets must be attacking or casting a spell, either of which fail afterwards. And it doesn't say targets can choose to fail the saving throw.
This would be a terrible defensive spell for your allies.
The Trigger is someone attacking or casting a spell, then you target the triggering creature. The upcast allows you to target other creatures along side the triggering creature, nothing says that the additional targets have to trigger this spell as well because that wouldn't make sense. We don't have multiple creatures attacking at the same time.
This can be used defensively quite well if it is played right. Maybe you have an ally who got put into a bad situation (ex. surrounded by enemies), shunting their first attack and them off the field until the start of their next turn might just save them from being downed.
Except they have to fail a Wisdom saving throw for it to work. The spell does not say anything about a willing creature, like Polymorph. RAW you can't just choose to fail a saving throw unless that option is specified in the spell.
That doesn't change the fact that it can still be useful. Yes they have to fail the saving throw and yes they can't willingly choose to do so. However, it still has the potential of being useful when it comes to protecting allies or preventing attacks.
Dead thread I know, but I'm really torn on this as well.
It competes for your reaction, which should always be reserved for Chronal Shift and upcasting it is pretty pointless since they come back at the start of their next turn. This means that they never lost the turn since they'll be back before the turn is lost.
Only benefit would be to create a trap, but even then...
5th level and the use of my reaction, preventing me from Chronal shifting...eh...
Lowering it to 3rd level would be appropriate I think.
Many DMs (including I believe Matt Mercer, who invented this spell) house rule that a character can willingly fail ANY save, check, or other roll, which is both logical and in many cases the only way to preserve player agency. I as a DM would make that the default for this spell based on both the Rule of Fun and the RAI principle.
There's one other way to make upcasting this spell useful, and that is to rule that the spell's effect on any additional targets is only triggered if and when they take one of the triggering actions (i.e. attack, cast a spell, etc.) on their turn (similar to how Booming Blade is triggered on the target's turn if they move), in which case they WOULD then vanish (if they failed their Wisdom save) for a turn. That would then make upcasting the spell on additional enemies VERY powerful. This approach is definitely not RAW (and maybe not even RAI), but it's the least invasive house rule I can think of to make upcasting on enemies worthwhile.
Many DMs (including I believe Matt Mercer, who invented this spell) house rule that a character can willingly fail ANY save, check, or other roll, which is both logical and in many cases the only way to preserve player agency. I as a DM would make that the default for this spell based on both the Rule of Fun and the RAI principle.
There's one other way to make upcasting this spell useful, and that is to rule that the spell's effect on any additional targets is only triggered if and when they take one of the triggering actions (i.e. attack, cast a spell, etc.) on their turn (similar to how Booming Blade is triggered on the target's turn if they move), in which case they WOULD then vanish (if they failed their Wisdom save) for a turn. That would then make upcasting the spell on additional enemies VERY powerful. This approach is definitely not RAW (and maybe not even RAI), but it's the least invasive house rule I can think of to make upcasting on enemies worthwhile.
I love this house rule. I also agree that house ruling that you can choose to fail any save, ability check, or attack roll is a smart decision with respect to agency.
Hello Everyone,
Had some questions regarding Temporal Shunt (TS) and was wondering if the community might be able to share some rule adjudications used at the table. Primarily, I'm asking because I'm playing a Chronurgy Wizard in a friend's game and would like to know some of the interpretations to my questions considering that there don't seem to be any answers within Sage Advice. First, let me paste the spell so that we're all on the same page:
Temporal Shunt
Questions:
2. It says at higher levels you target additional creatures, so each target gets it's own save.
3. Again they refer to the target, and since each one is a target they return on their respective turns.
1. (not sure I understand this question correctly the way you have it worded) Not just TS but any spell can be cast in a situation where counterspell isn't possible. Counterspell doesn't have to be possible to cast a spell.
1) Yes, but you can counterspell a magic item if the item says it casts a spell
2) Each creature makes a save
3) States the creature comes back at the beginning of its turn. Doesn't seem like it's really worth upcasting.
I think it is worth upcasting, but not in the direction you'd initally assume. I would upcast this to target party members who were either low on health, or concentrating on something that we needed to keep up. It would also be useful if a creature has used its full move speed to be within 5ft of only 1 of your allys.
In this sceneario, your friend is gone until the start of their turn when they get to take their full turn. This means they cannot be targeted by any enemies during that time.
You can't do that though. The spell specifically says the targets must be attacking or casting a spell, either of which fail afterwards. And it doesn't say targets can choose to fail the saving throw.
This would be a terrible defensive spell for your allies.
The Trigger is someone attacking or casting a spell, then you target the triggering creature. The upcast allows you to target other creatures along side the triggering creature, nothing says that the additional targets have to trigger this spell as well because that wouldn't make sense. We don't have multiple creatures attacking at the same time.
This can be used defensively quite well if it is played right. Maybe you have an ally who got put into a bad situation (ex. surrounded by enemies), shunting their first attack and them off the field until the start of their next turn might just save them from being downed.
Except they have to fail a Wisdom saving throw for it to work. The spell does not say anything about a willing creature, like Polymorph. RAW you can't just choose to fail a saving throw unless that option is specified in the spell.
That doesn't change the fact that it can still be useful. Yes they have to fail the saving throw and yes they can't willingly choose to do so. However, it still has the potential of being useful when it comes to protecting allies or preventing attacks.
Dead thread I know, but I'm really torn on this as well.
It competes for your reaction, which should always be reserved for Chronal Shift and upcasting it is pretty pointless since they come back at the start of their next turn. This means that they never lost the turn since they'll be back before the turn is lost.
Only benefit would be to create a trap, but even then...
5th level and the use of my reaction, preventing me from Chronal shifting...eh...
Lowering it to 3rd level would be appropriate I think.
Make it a free action and its freaking amazing.
Many DMs (including I believe Matt Mercer, who invented this spell) house rule that a character can willingly fail ANY save, check, or other roll, which is both logical and in many cases the only way to preserve player agency. I as a DM would make that the default for this spell based on both the Rule of Fun and the RAI principle.
There's one other way to make upcasting this spell useful, and that is to rule that the spell's effect on any additional targets is only triggered if and when they take one of the triggering actions (i.e. attack, cast a spell, etc.) on their turn (similar to how Booming Blade is triggered on the target's turn if they move), in which case they WOULD then vanish (if they failed their Wisdom save) for a turn. That would then make upcasting the spell on additional enemies VERY powerful. This approach is definitely not RAW (and maybe not even RAI), but it's the least invasive house rule I can think of to make upcasting on enemies worthwhile.
I love this house rule. I also agree that house ruling that you can choose to fail any save, ability check, or attack roll is a smart decision with respect to agency.
🙂👍