I was thinking about haste and its synergy with Bladesinger's special version of Extra Attack.
Since Bladesingers can replace one of the attacks they make with a cantrip, you should be able to use the extra action from haste to cast a cantrip, which is pretty neat for extra damage.
I like Haste as well, I consider like a final boss move for Bladesingers (regardless the interpretation of allowing or not casting a cantrip), but I still think that upcasted Shadow Blade is more effective.
I like Haste as well, I consider like a final boss move for Bladesingers (regardless the interpretation of allowing or not casting a cantrip), but I still think that upcasted Shadow Blade is more effective.
True, though it depends if you get good magic weapons or not.
There is a whole thread that has been basically dedicated to the subject if you can use your Hasted action to cast a cantrip with the Bladesinger's 6th level feature (I do not believe you can). If I can find it, I'll link it here for you to read at your leisure.
If you're looking for damage output, it would be better to go with Ir0ns0ul's suggestion of using an upcasted Shadow Blade. That 4d8 damage you can deal with every hit is no joke though I prefer an upcasted Spirit Shroud since it not only does increased damage, but keeps them from healing for one round and remove 10 feet of movement from any creature that you choose that is within range. Spirit Shroud can also be used with cantrips like Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade, unlike Shadow Blade.
It's a little less damage, but the fact you can use your magical weapons and your ability modifier for the damage makes up for the difference.
So above is a link for the thread that goes over the whole argument about whether a Bladesinger can use the Haste Action to make another cantrip attack.
Thanks for the link! While I think the wording could technically allow it, I highly doubt it was intended to be this way, and I would really allow it to be down to DMs discretion on the matter.
Thanks for the link! While I think the wording could technically allow it, I highly doubt it was intended to be this way, and I would really allow it to be down to DMs discretion on the matter.
The wording doesn't technically allow it. That's covered in the thread. It's a general vs. Specific issue that is argued repeatedly in it. The spell being more specific than the subclass feature. The spell is very specific about what your allowed to do with it and there's a bunch of reasons why the cantrip wouldn't apply.
Bear in mind Bladesingers can cantrip-attack using the same "rules logic" as a shove or grapple, so ruling they can't cantrip with their Haste action must also mean no-one can shove or grapple with their haste action. Not arguing one way or the other, just pointing out you should allow all three or none of them.
Even if you can't use your extra attack from Haste for a cantrip, you can wear Illusionist Bracers and get 4 attacks per round with Haste. Two regular attacks and 2 cantrip attacks.
Bear in mind Bladesingers can cantrip-attack using the same "rules logic" as a shove or grapple, so ruling they can't cantrip with their Haste action must also mean no-one can shove or grapple with their haste action.
Not at all. The difference is that you can replace any attack with a shove of grapple, whereas the bladesinger can ONLY replace one of those extra attacks with a cantrip. Please don't muddy up the issue with comparisons which are simply not true.
It is absolutely true. A bladesinger who takes the attack action on their turn can replace up to one attack with a cantrip. Your claim to the contrary is false. Either the Haste attack is replaceable - with a cantrip or grapple - or it isn't, but Bladesingers simply aren't required to make two attacks in order to cast a cantrip instead of an Attack action attack.
If you want to get silly about it, a Bladesinger can turn Eldritch Blast attacks into grapples, because a grapple can replace any Attack action attack - just like the Bladesinger cantrip can. The difference is, the cantrip can only replace a maximum of one attack per action.
Bear in mind Bladesingers can cantrip-attack using the same "rules logic" as a shove or grapple, so ruling they can't cantrip with their Haste action must also mean no-one can shove or grapple with their haste action. Not arguing one way or the other, just pointing out you should allow all three or none of them.
And that ist absolutely correct.
Haste says: "[...] That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action. [..]"
The spell overrides the Attack-Action with "one Weapon attack only". A shove or grapple is not a weapon attack. Casting a cantrip is not a weapon attack.
Bear in mind Bladesingers can cantrip-attack using the same "rules logic" as a shove or grapple, so ruling they can't cantrip with their Haste action must also mean no-one can shove or grapple with their haste action.
Not at all. The difference is that you can replace any attack with a shove of grapple, whereas the bladesinger can ONLY replace one of those extra attacks with a cantrip. Please don't muddy up the issue with comparisons which are simply not true.
It is absolutely true. A bladesinger who takes the attack action on their turn can replace up to one attack with a cantrip. Your claim to the contrary is false. Either the Haste attack is replaceable - with a cantrip or grapple - or it isn't, but Bladesingers simply aren't required to make two attacks in order to cast a cantrip instead of an Attack action attack.
If you want to get silly about it, a Bladesinger can turn Eldritch Blast attacks into grapples, because a grapple can replace any Attack action attack - just like the Bladesinger cantrip can. The difference is, the cantrip can only replace a maximum of one attack per action.
No, again please start reading the rules rather than wishing they were written in the way you want. The rules do NOT say that the bladesinger can replace any attack with a cantrip, they do NOT even say this and put a limitation of "once per turn" or anything of the kind, they ONLY say that you can replace one of THOSE EXTRA ATTACKS with a cantrip. It has to be an extra attack that is replaced. Simply read the RAW.
Lycan is correct.
The rules governing the bladesinger and switching with a Cantrip and the rules governing switching in a grapple or shove are seperate and different with very different specific wording. The truth is that a bladesinger could in fact switch out One Attack with a Cantrip and One attack with a shove or Grapple. However that does not change the fact that the Cantrip is very speicific that it can only be from the action that is modified by Extra Attack. Which Haste specifically is not and even clarifies that it is not in it's wording.
Shove not working on Haste Actions has nothing to do with Whether Cantrips can work or not. The bladesinger ability itself blocks the Cantrip from working on the Haste ACTION regardless of if HASTE does as well. however. Shove is only blocked by the specific wording of Haste which is very different.
Bear in mind Bladesingers can cantrip-attack using the same "rules logic" as a shove or grapple, so ruling they can't cantrip with their Haste action must also mean no-one can shove or grapple with their haste action.
Not at all. The difference is that you can replace any attack with a shove of grapple, whereas the bladesinger can ONLY replace one of those extra attacks with a cantrip. Please don't muddy up the issue with comparisons which are simply not true.
It is absolutely true. A bladesinger who takes the attack action on their turn can replace up to one attack with a cantrip. Your claim to the contrary is false. Either the Haste attack is replaceable - with a cantrip or grapple - or it isn't, but Bladesingers simply aren't required to make two attacks in order to cast a cantrip instead of an Attack action attack.
If you want to get silly about it, a Bladesinger can turn Eldritch Blast attacks into grapples, because a grapple can replace any Attack action attack - just like the Bladesinger cantrip can. The difference is, the cantrip can only replace a maximum of one attack per action.
No, again please start reading the rules rather than wishing they were written in the way you want. The rules do NOT say that the bladesinger can replace any attack with a cantrip, they do NOT even say this and put a limitation of "once per turn" or anything of the kind, they ONLY say that you can replace one of THOSE EXTRA ATTACKS with a cantrip. It has to be an extra attack that is replaced. Simply read the RAW.
Lycan is correct.
The rules governing the bladesinger and switching with a Cantrip and the rules governing switching in a grapple or shove are seperate and different with very different specific wording. The truth is that a bladesinger could in fact switch out One Attack with a Cantrip and One attack with a shove or Grapple. However that does not change the fact that the Cantrip is very speicific that it can only be from the action that is modified by Extra Attack. Which Haste specifically is not and even clarifies that it is not in it's wording.
Shove not working on Haste Actions has nothing to do with Whether Cantrips can work or not. The bladesinger ability itself blocks the Cantrip from working on the Haste ACTION regardless of if HASTE does as well. however. Shove is only blocked by the specific wording of Haste which is very different.
Yes, RAW you CANNOT use Haste to use a cantrip, because Haste specifically says that you can make "One WEAPON attack only" with that attack action.
This is more specific than the general wording of the Attack action, which allows you to make an Attack(or more with extra attack) on your turn. This could be; a weapon attack, a shove/grapple, OR a spell attack if you had the ability to do so from some item or class ability (note here I do not mean the casting of a spell, as a 'spell attack' is its own specific thing, the two just almost always go together. The only example I can think of is the Sun Soul Monk, which someone mentioned previously in one of these threads).
And for obvious reasons this cannot be bypassed by using Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade, as they still require the casting of a spell.
In conclusion, I don't think that the Extra Attack feature per say is what stops you using cantrips; it's the fact that Haste forbids anything that isn't a weapon attack, including shoves/grapples and for bladesingers cantrips (or even the new Dragonborns' breath weapon from UA).
Hey so I was wandering whether or not haste works with shadow blade, because haste specifies weapon attack for the extra attack action but shadow blade specifies that it counts as a simple melee weapon with the light, thrown and finesse properties. So, thoughts?
I was thinking about haste and its synergy with Bladesinger's special version of Extra Attack.
Since Bladesingers can replace one of the attacks they make with a cantrip, you should be able to use the extra action from haste to cast a cantrip, which is pretty neat for extra damage.
Whether or not you can use a Cantrip is debatable and up to your DM as this is not clear in RAW. Haste says you can take the attack action make one weapon attack only and the Bladesinger ability says you can cast a cantrip as one of your attacks when you take the attack action. So it is really a matter of interpretation. Specific beats General but both are specific and it is not clear which is general.
Overall Haste is an ok spell for Bladesingers, I always have it on my Bladesingers, but it is not that common that I cast it. The big problem is the loss of concentration that causes a lost turn. If it wasn't for that it would be awesome. IMO you are gnerally going to be better off with Blur, Protection from Evil and Good, Greater Invisibility or at high levels Tasha's Otherwordly Guise.
Personally I don't like Shadowblade or Tenser's Transformation on a Bladesinger even though these are designed to be the go-to Gish spells.
OMG I just realized I am stupid I forgot both of them are concentration spells.
Haste can be cast by others on you, so you can be hasted and using Shadowblade.
RAW you can use the Shadowblade for your Haste attack, that is clear, however RAW you can't use Shadowblade for either of the blade cantrips so you definitely can't do a Shadowblade cantrip attack as your Haste attack.
I was thinking about haste and its synergy with Bladesinger's special version of Extra Attack.
Since Bladesingers can replace one of the attacks they make with a cantrip, you should be able to use the extra action from haste to cast a cantrip, which is pretty neat for extra damage.
I like Haste as well, I consider like a final boss move for Bladesingers (regardless the interpretation of allowing or not casting a cantrip), but I still think that upcasted Shadow Blade is more effective.
True, though it depends if you get good magic weapons or not.
There is a whole thread that has been basically dedicated to the subject if you can use your Hasted action to cast a cantrip with the Bladesinger's 6th level feature (I do not believe you can). If I can find it, I'll link it here for you to read at your leisure.
If you're looking for damage output, it would be better to go with Ir0ns0ul's suggestion of using an upcasted Shadow Blade. That 4d8 damage you can deal with every hit is no joke though I prefer an upcasted Spirit Shroud since it not only does increased damage, but keeps them from healing for one round and remove 10 feet of movement from any creature that you choose that is within range. Spirit Shroud can also be used with cantrips like Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade, unlike Shadow Blade.
It's a little less damage, but the fact you can use your magical weapons and your ability modifier for the damage makes up for the difference.
Bladesinger and Haste
So above is a link for the thread that goes over the whole argument about whether a Bladesinger can use the Haste Action to make another cantrip attack.
Thanks for the link! While I think the wording could technically allow it, I highly doubt it was intended to be this way, and I would really allow it to be down to DMs discretion on the matter.
The wording doesn't technically allow it. That's covered in the thread. It's a general vs. Specific issue that is argued repeatedly in it. The spell being more specific than the subclass feature. The spell is very specific about what your allowed to do with it and there's a bunch of reasons why the cantrip wouldn't apply.
Bear in mind Bladesingers can cantrip-attack using the same "rules logic" as a shove or grapple, so ruling they can't cantrip with their Haste action must also mean no-one can shove or grapple with their haste action. Not arguing one way or the other, just pointing out you should allow all three or none of them.
Even if you can't use your extra attack from Haste for a cantrip, you can wear Illusionist Bracers and get 4 attacks per round with Haste. Two regular attacks and 2 cantrip attacks.
It is absolutely true. A bladesinger who takes the attack action on their turn can replace up to one attack with a cantrip. Your claim to the contrary is false. Either the Haste attack is replaceable - with a cantrip or grapple - or it isn't, but Bladesingers simply aren't required to make two attacks in order to cast a cantrip instead of an Attack action attack.
If you want to get silly about it, a Bladesinger can turn Eldritch Blast attacks into grapples, because a grapple can replace any Attack action attack - just like the Bladesinger cantrip can. The difference is, the cantrip can only replace a maximum of one attack per action.
And that ist absolutely correct.
Haste says:
"[...] That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action. [..]"
The spell overrides the Attack-Action with "one Weapon attack only". A shove or grapple is not a weapon attack. Casting a cantrip is not a weapon attack.
Lycan is correct.
The rules governing the bladesinger and switching with a Cantrip and the rules governing switching in a grapple or shove are seperate and different with very different specific wording. The truth is that a bladesinger could in fact switch out One Attack with a Cantrip and One attack with a shove or Grapple. However that does not change the fact that the Cantrip is very speicific that it can only be from the action that is modified by Extra Attack. Which Haste specifically is not and even clarifies that it is not in it's wording.
Shove not working on Haste Actions has nothing to do with Whether Cantrips can work or not. The bladesinger ability itself blocks the Cantrip from working on the Haste ACTION regardless of if HASTE does as well. however. Shove is only blocked by the specific wording of Haste which is very different.
Yes, RAW you CANNOT use Haste to use a cantrip, because Haste specifically says that you can make "One WEAPON attack only" with that attack action.
This is more specific than the general wording of the Attack action, which allows you to make an Attack(or more with extra attack) on your turn. This could be; a weapon attack, a shove/grapple, OR a spell attack if you had the ability to do so from some item or class ability (note here I do not mean the casting of a spell, as a 'spell attack' is its own specific thing, the two just almost always go together. The only example I can think of is the Sun Soul Monk, which someone mentioned previously in one of these threads).
And for obvious reasons this cannot be bypassed by using Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade, as they still require the casting of a spell.
In conclusion, I don't think that the Extra Attack feature per say is what stops you using cantrips; it's the fact that Haste forbids anything that isn't a weapon attack, including shoves/grapples and for bladesingers cantrips (or even the new Dragonborns' breath weapon from UA).
Hey so I was wandering whether or not haste works with shadow blade, because haste specifies weapon attack for the extra attack action but shadow blade specifies that it counts as a simple melee weapon with the light, thrown and finesse properties. So, thoughts?
OMG I just realized I am stupid I forgot both of them are concentration spells.
Whether or not you can use a Cantrip is debatable and up to your DM as this is not clear in RAW. Haste says you can take the attack action make one weapon attack only and the Bladesinger ability says you can cast a cantrip as one of your attacks when you take the attack action. So it is really a matter of interpretation. Specific beats General but both are specific and it is not clear which is general.
Overall Haste is an ok spell for Bladesingers, I always have it on my Bladesingers, but it is not that common that I cast it. The big problem is the loss of concentration that causes a lost turn. If it wasn't for that it would be awesome. IMO you are gnerally going to be better off with Blur, Protection from Evil and Good, Greater Invisibility or at high levels Tasha's Otherwordly Guise.
Personally I don't like Shadowblade or Tenser's Transformation on a Bladesinger even though these are designed to be the go-to Gish spells.
Haste can be cast by others on you, so you can be hasted and using Shadowblade.
RAW you can use the Shadowblade for your Haste attack, that is clear, however RAW you can't use Shadowblade for either of the blade cantrips so you definitely can't do a Shadowblade cantrip attack as your Haste attack.