I’m really loving this subclass, one that I had previously overlooked! I can’t wait to try it out. It seems that there are some really good features that help you, even when you don’t activate your Bladesong. Getting to wear leather armor is one of them, of course.
As for the extra attack, I want to make sure I am interpreting the new rules (in TCoE) correctly.
”EXTRA ATTCK (6th Level Bladesinging Feature)
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.”
This says nothing about “while your bladesong is active.“ Does this mean you can attack with a weapon, and then cast some thing like Toll the Dead on the same turn? And you can do this whether or not you have blade song active?
If so, this is a great feature and would make you more effective between casting leveled spells.
If you could only use it while your bladesong is active, it would specify as much. The two features are independent of one another, so you can replace an attack with a cantrip regardless of whether you're using your bladesong.
yes you can cast a cantrip and make a melee attack in the same turn, even when you are are not running bladesong. Which is good, because the amount of times you can activate bladesong has been severely nerfed. The drawback is, you're going to be in melee, with a squishy wizard without bladesong active a lot more than you used to. Be wise to the risks that you take when you move into melee range when you don't have Bladesong active or available.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
yes you can cast a cantrip and make a melee attack in the same turn, even when you are are not running bladesong. Which is good, because the amount of times you can activate bladesong has been severely nerfed. The drawback is, you're going to be in melee, with a squishy wizard without bladesong active a lot more than you used to. Be wise to the risks that you take when you move into melee range when you don't have Bladesong active or available.
Thank you for the clarification. As I see it (or rather, as I would play it), if Bladesong is not active I won't be in melee. I would hang back and act like a regular wizard and do two ranged attacks or one attack and a cantrip. I'll still have studded leather, high dex, and can do more damage than other Wizards between leveled spells.
I'm kind of torn because I LOVE being able to use booming/greenflame blade without losing a weapon attack. Previously only the Archane Trickster did not have to sacrifice anything to use those cantrips. Even the Edritch Knight has to (more or less) sacrifice something, depending on the level.
But they did nerf the crap out of how often you can go into bladesong mode.
Even more to consider.... you can now pick Devil's Sight as a feat. You can now have the Darkness spell in your quiver as a huge offense/defense buff whether or not you're blade singing.
I have an upcoming TCoE level 7 one-shot, and I'm going to give the Bladesinger a try. At least at that level I'll have 3 uses per day.
For the ones I play in (and that I DM) this is an overall major boost. Why - because there tends to only be one major combat each long rest. Hence the change from short rest to long rest has zero effect.
The damage boost by allowing a cantrip (which scales faster than weapon damage) is quite large. I feel it might well be unbalanced compared to a fighter for example. Time will tell but I am sceptical for now.
We are all thinking melee weapons, but what about a bow for example. A bladesinger at level 6 is able to take an attack and a cantrip attack for the cost of 1 action. A wizard or Sorcerer or Warlock at the same level gets a cantrip attack for the cost of 1 action. Melee classes get 2 attacks for the cost of 1 action, but the damage output of a weapon is usually less than a cantrip. The cantrip was initially increased (it seems to me) to help balance out the fact that melee classes get the extra attack.
For the ones I play in (and that I DM) this is an overall major boost. Why - because there tends to only be one major combat each long rest. Hence the change from short rest to long rest has zero effect.
The damage boost by allowing a cantrip (which scales faster than weapon damage) is quite large. I feel it might well be unbalanced compared to a fighter for example. Time will tell but I am sceptical for now.
We are all thinking melee weapons, but what about a bow for example. A bladesinger at level 6 is able to take an attack and a cantrip attack for the cost of 1 action. A wizard or Sorcerer or Warlock at the same level gets a cantrip attack for the cost of 1 action. Melee classes get 2 attacks for the cost of 1 action, but the damage output of a weapon is usually less than a cantrip. The cantrip was initially increased (it seems to me) to help balance out the fact that melee classes get the extra attack.
Hopefully I am missing something.
Dungeon crawling (and similar activities) yield a lot of combat encounters, but generally I see your point on that. Essentially I'll just have to be selective about when I use my Bladesong.
I disagree about cantrips verses weapons. Martial classes get all kinds of bonus damage. With the exception of a Warlock with agonizing blast, cantrips are just naked dice damage. On the very top end for tier 2, it's 2d12 (an average damage of 13). Most cantrips are less. That is easily surpassed per attack by tier 2 martial classes, because they're adding their ASI bonus, plus feats and fighting styles that add damage, plus things like sneak attack, etc.
This of course is not a complaint, I think martial classes absolutely should do more damage that a cantrip.
What's lovely about the Bladesinger is it no longer gives up a weapon attack to cast booming or greenflame blade! Now you have both weapon damage, plus the cantrip damage. And you also have options. Ranged weapon + Ranged weapon, Ranged Weapon + Cantrip, Melee weapon + Greenflame Blade. But yeah, they did toss in a huge nerf by severely limiting bladesinging.
You are right in that I hadn't planned in the extra abilities because they burn up resources. I was just thinking base with base. A base attack at level 10 (for example) for a sword and board fighter is still only 1d8 + str. Depending on subclass they can add in all sorts of things, true. And because of what I said previously those limited resources may be effectively infinite. Still, the bladesinger gets to do 2d12 or 2d10 or 2d8 for their attack - with no limit. Strength is going to be +5 max, 1d8+5 (+2 fighting style) being 6-13 (8-15 with fighting style) compared with 2d12 for 2-24 or 2d10 for 2-20 or 2d8 for 2-16. Fighter has a much lower range - which is a benefit - but a lower max too.
At 11th level the damage output for one attack doesn't change for the fighter, but does for the wizard.
You are completely correct though in that real world is a lot different from theory crafting (which I am unapologetically NOT good at) so hopefully this will all even out.
Even running through Tomb of Annihilation my guys didn't do many combat encounters per day. There were lots of puzzles and traps etc, but combat encounters would have been limited to 3-4 a day at max - which would be under the bladesinging limit.
As I said, hope I am wrong and your response says it is at least a lot more complicated that I initially thought about, but I am still not 100% sold. Look forward to seeing it in action. Good luck with your 1-shot.
Yeah, on the low side, a sword and board fighter at level 5 (assuming both attacks hit) does 2d8 + 10 (ASI bonus) + 4 (dualing fighting style), for an average of 23. That's with no magic weapons.
But then you got us optimizers :o) Add polearm master and great weapon master feats to a level 8 Fighter. Assuming all three attacks hit (granted, that's a big assumption):
2d10 + 1d4 + 30 + 15 = 58.5 average damage. And actually more like 60, because they can re-roll 1s and 2s with their great weapon weapon fighting style. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I love to nerd out with this stuff :)
yes you can cast a cantrip and make a melee attack in the same turn, even when you are are not running bladesong. Which is good, because the amount of times you can activate bladesong has been severely nerfed. The drawback is, you're going to be in melee, with a squishy wizard without bladesong active a lot more than you used to. Be wise to the risks that you take when you move into melee range when you don't have Bladesong active or available.
Thank you for the clarification. As I see it (or rather, as I would play it), if Bladesong is not active I won't be in melee. I would hang back and act like a regular wizard and do two ranged attacks or one attack and a cantrip. I'll still have studded leather, high dex, and can do more damage than other Wizards between leveled spells.
I'm kind of torn because I LOVE being able to use booming/greenflame blade without losing a weapon attack. Previously only the Archane Trickster did not have to sacrifice anything to use those cantrips. Even the Edritch Knight has to (more or less) sacrifice something, depending on the level.
But they did nerf the crap out of how often you can go into bladesong mode.
Even more to consider.... you can now pick Devil's Sight as a feat. You can now have the Darkness spell in your quiver as a huge offense/defense buff whether or not you're blade singing.
I have an upcoming TCoE level 7 one-shot, and I'm going to give the Bladesinger a try. At least at that level I'll have 3 uses per day.
What I'd strongly consider if I was playing a bladesinger is taking the mobile feat so I could move up, BB something, then move away from it without provoking. I'd try to use mobility to prop up my melee ability rather than brute force AC. Bladesong will be there when things start to get congested, or you get pinned down in the backfield somehow.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
yes you can cast a cantrip and make a melee attack in the same turn, even when you are are not running bladesong. Which is good, because the amount of times you can activate bladesong has been severely nerfed. The drawback is, you're going to be in melee, with a squishy wizard without bladesong active a lot more than you used to. Be wise to the risks that you take when you move into melee range when you don't have Bladesong active or available.
Thank you for the clarification. As I see it (or rather, as I would play it), if Bladesong is not active I won't be in melee. I would hang back and act like a regular wizard and do two ranged attacks or one attack and a cantrip. I'll still have studded leather, high dex, and can do more damage than other Wizards between leveled spells.
I'm kind of torn because I LOVE being able to use booming/greenflame blade without losing a weapon attack. Previously only the Archane Trickster did not have to sacrifice anything to use those cantrips. Even the Edritch Knight has to (more or less) sacrifice something, depending on the level.
But they did nerf the crap out of how often you can go into bladesong mode.
Even more to consider.... you can now pick Devil's Sight as a feat. You can now have the Darkness spell in your quiver as a huge offense/defense buff whether or not you're blade singing.
I have an upcoming TCoE level 7 one-shot, and I'm going to give the Bladesinger a try. At least at that level I'll have 3 uses per day.
What I'd strongly consider if I was playing a bladesinger is taking the mobile feat so I could move up, BB something, then move away from it without provoking. I'd try to use mobility to prop up my melee ability rather than brute force AC. Bladesong will be there when things start to get congested, or you get pinned down in the backfield somehow.
The good news is, you can take mobile at level 1 with a variant human, and get your melee on with a dagger until you can get a martial weapon from bladesinger at level 2. move in, BB with dagger, 16 AC with mage armor + shield spell is pretty solid defensively at level 1.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I was planning a changeling arcane trickster/bladesinger.
Thinking about throwing shadowblade for sneak and casting a ranged cantrip for a mid range character, bonus action recreate shadowblade. Can backup and cast or move forward and engage with bb/gfb, when required.
Works w/o sneak, to a lesser effect, or until you find another use for bonus action
Shadowblade can no longer be used to cast BB/GFB. RAW, BB/GFB require a melee weapon worth 1sp.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I might actually be tempted to say screw bladesong, and MC into nature cleric to grab heavy armor to gish it up. Pick up Shillelagh and use my focus staff as my melee weapon using my wisdom (instead of the more standard dex weapon). I haven't thought it through yet, but I'd be more tempted to do it now than before, because you're in bladesinger for the melee ability (multi-attack), not the bladesong any more.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I was planning a changeling arcane trickster/bladesinger.
Thinking about throwing shadowblade for sneak and casting a ranged cantrip for a mid range character, bonus action recreate shadowblade. Can backup and cast or move forward and engage with bb/gfb, when required.
Works w/o sneak, to a lesser effect, or until you find another use for bonus action
Although it’s quite good, I often consider War Wizard superior to Bladesinger as a multiclass for Arcane Tricksters. As a Rogue, your AC is fine and your most important defensive tactic is Cunning Action, you’ll not tank hits with AC.
However, Rogues have a really poor Saving Throw distribution. Hence, War Wizard abilities sounds more appealing to me.
Bladesinger being able to attack multiple times now might change that up as it’s an extra opportunity to apply sneak attack.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Bladesinger being able to attack multiple times now might change that up as it’s an extra opportunity to apply sneak attack.
Bladesingers could already attack twice from level 6; what's changed is that they can now swap one of those attacks for a cantrip, which if it's Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade is still an attack, which is nice, or is that what you meant?
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
well it's a damage boost at higher levels. I was comparing more directly to the previous poster who had suggested warmagic over bladesinger. Old bladesinger with multi-attack is imo, better. New bladesinger with an extra cantrip added on is even better than that.
I phrased that poorly.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
The fact that the Bladesinger can now cast & slash with cantrips & a weapon attack is the big thing that makes "Bladesong" usable only with proficiency per long rest a fair trade.
A Bladesinger Wizard is all about the dance; elegantly shifting into battle to strike, then dancing away.
Gaining the "Mobile" feat, using "Misty Step" or "Expeditious Retreat" as a bonus action, or utilizing a hand-crossbow plus ranged cantrips for artillery fire are all valid options when your Bladesong is inactive.
Quite thrilling when you're fighting with high-risk.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I’m really loving this subclass, one that I had previously overlooked! I can’t wait to try it out. It seems that there are some really good features that help you, even when you don’t activate your Bladesong. Getting to wear leather armor is one of them, of course.
As for the extra attack, I want to make sure I am interpreting the new rules (in TCoE) correctly.
”EXTRA ATTCK (6th Level Bladesinging Feature)
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.”
This says nothing about “while your bladesong is active.“ Does this mean you can attack with a weapon, and then cast some thing like Toll the Dead on the same turn? And you can do this whether or not you have blade song active?
If so, this is a great feature and would make you more effective between casting leveled spells.
If you could only use it while your bladesong is active, it would specify as much. The two features are independent of one another, so you can replace an attack with a cantrip regardless of whether you're using your bladesong.
yes you can cast a cantrip and make a melee attack in the same turn, even when you are are not running bladesong. Which is good, because the amount of times you can activate bladesong has been severely nerfed. The drawback is, you're going to be in melee, with a squishy wizard without bladesong active a lot more than you used to. Be wise to the risks that you take when you move into melee range when you don't have Bladesong active or available.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Thank you for the clarification. As I see it (or rather, as I would play it), if Bladesong is not active I won't be in melee. I would hang back and act like a regular wizard and do two ranged attacks or one attack and a cantrip. I'll still have studded leather, high dex, and can do more damage than other Wizards between leveled spells.
I'm kind of torn because I LOVE being able to use booming/greenflame blade without losing a weapon attack. Previously only the Archane Trickster did not have to sacrifice anything to use those cantrips. Even the Edritch Knight has to (more or less) sacrifice something, depending on the level.
But they did nerf the crap out of how often you can go into bladesong mode.
Even more to consider.... you can now pick Devil's Sight as a feat. You can now have the Darkness spell in your quiver as a huge offense/defense buff whether or not you're blade singing.
I have an upcoming TCoE level 7 one-shot, and I'm going to give the Bladesinger a try. At least at that level I'll have 3 uses per day.
Depends a lot on the DM and campaign.
For the ones I play in (and that I DM) this is an overall major boost. Why - because there tends to only be one major combat each long rest. Hence the change from short rest to long rest has zero effect.
The damage boost by allowing a cantrip (which scales faster than weapon damage) is quite large. I feel it might well be unbalanced compared to a fighter for example. Time will tell but I am sceptical for now.
We are all thinking melee weapons, but what about a bow for example. A bladesinger at level 6 is able to take an attack and a cantrip attack for the cost of 1 action. A wizard or Sorcerer or Warlock at the same level gets a cantrip attack for the cost of 1 action. Melee classes get 2 attacks for the cost of 1 action, but the damage output of a weapon is usually less than a cantrip. The cantrip was initially increased (it seems to me) to help balance out the fact that melee classes get the extra attack.
Hopefully I am missing something.
Dungeon crawling (and similar activities) yield a lot of combat encounters, but generally I see your point on that. Essentially I'll just have to be selective about when I use my Bladesong.
I disagree about cantrips verses weapons. Martial classes get all kinds of bonus damage. With the exception of a Warlock with agonizing blast, cantrips are just naked dice damage. On the very top end for tier 2, it's 2d12 (an average damage of 13). Most cantrips are less. That is easily surpassed per attack by tier 2 martial classes, because they're adding their ASI bonus, plus feats and fighting styles that add damage, plus things like sneak attack, etc.
This of course is not a complaint, I think martial classes absolutely should do more damage that a cantrip.
What's lovely about the Bladesinger is it no longer gives up a weapon attack to cast booming or greenflame blade! Now you have both weapon damage, plus the cantrip damage. And you also have options. Ranged weapon + Ranged weapon, Ranged Weapon + Cantrip, Melee weapon + Greenflame Blade. But yeah, they did toss in a huge nerf by severely limiting bladesinging.
You are right in that I hadn't planned in the extra abilities because they burn up resources. I was just thinking base with base. A base attack at level 10 (for example) for a sword and board fighter is still only 1d8 + str. Depending on subclass they can add in all sorts of things, true. And because of what I said previously those limited resources may be effectively infinite. Still, the bladesinger gets to do 2d12 or 2d10 or 2d8 for their attack - with no limit. Strength is going to be +5 max, 1d8+5 (+2 fighting style) being 6-13 (8-15 with fighting style) compared with 2d12 for 2-24 or 2d10 for 2-20 or 2d8 for 2-16. Fighter has a much lower range - which is a benefit - but a lower max too.
At 11th level the damage output for one attack doesn't change for the fighter, but does for the wizard.
You are completely correct though in that real world is a lot different from theory crafting (which I am unapologetically NOT good at) so hopefully this will all even out.
Even running through Tomb of Annihilation my guys didn't do many combat encounters per day. There were lots of puzzles and traps etc, but combat encounters would have been limited to 3-4 a day at max - which would be under the bladesinging limit.
As I said, hope I am wrong and your response says it is at least a lot more complicated that I initially thought about, but I am still not 100% sold. Look forward to seeing it in action. Good luck with your 1-shot.
Yeah, on the low side, a sword and board fighter at level 5 (assuming both attacks hit) does 2d8 + 10 (ASI bonus) + 4 (dualing fighting style), for an average of 23. That's with no magic weapons.
But then you got us optimizers :o) Add polearm master and great weapon master feats to a level 8 Fighter. Assuming all three attacks hit (granted, that's a big assumption):
2d10 + 1d4 + 30 + 15 = 58.5 average damage. And actually more like 60, because they can re-roll 1s and 2s with their great weapon weapon fighting style. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I love to nerd out with this stuff :)
What I'd strongly consider if I was playing a bladesinger is taking the mobile feat so I could move up, BB something, then move away from it without provoking. I'd try to use mobility to prop up my melee ability rather than brute force AC. Bladesong will be there when things start to get congested, or you get pinned down in the backfield somehow.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
That's not a bad idea...
The good news is, you can take mobile at level 1 with a variant human, and get your melee on with a dagger until you can get a martial weapon from bladesinger at level 2. move in, BB with dagger, 16 AC with mage armor + shield spell is pretty solid defensively at level 1.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I was planning a changeling arcane trickster/bladesinger.
Thinking about throwing shadowblade for sneak and casting a ranged cantrip for a mid range character, bonus action recreate shadowblade. Can backup and cast or move forward and engage with bb/gfb, when required.
Works w/o sneak, to a lesser effect, or until you find another use for bonus action
Shadowblade can no longer be used to cast BB/GFB. RAW, BB/GFB require a melee weapon worth 1sp.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
That's a good point...
I might actually be tempted to say screw bladesong, and MC into nature cleric to grab heavy armor to gish it up. Pick up Shillelagh and use my focus staff as my melee weapon using my wisdom (instead of the more standard dex weapon). I haven't thought it through yet, but I'd be more tempted to do it now than before, because you're in bladesinger for the melee ability (multi-attack), not the bladesong any more.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Although it’s quite good, I often consider War Wizard superior to Bladesinger as a multiclass for Arcane Tricksters. As a Rogue, your AC is fine and your most important defensive tactic is Cunning Action, you’ll not tank hits with AC.
However, Rogues have a really poor Saving Throw distribution. Hence, War Wizard abilities sounds more appealing to me.
Bladesinger being able to attack multiple times now might change that up as it’s an extra opportunity to apply sneak attack.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Bladesingers could already attack twice from level 6; what's changed is that they can now swap one of those attacks for a cantrip, which if it's Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade is still an attack, which is nice, or is that what you meant?
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
well it's a damage boost at higher levels. I was comparing more directly to the previous poster who had suggested warmagic over bladesinger. Old bladesinger with multi-attack is imo, better. New bladesinger with an extra cantrip added on is even better than that.
I phrased that poorly.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
The fact that the Bladesinger can now cast & slash with cantrips & a weapon attack is the big thing that makes "Bladesong" usable only with proficiency per long rest a fair trade.
A Bladesinger Wizard is all about the dance; elegantly shifting into battle to strike, then dancing away.
Gaining the "Mobile" feat, using "Misty Step" or "Expeditious Retreat" as a bonus action, or utilizing a hand-crossbow plus ranged cantrips for artillery fire are all valid options when your Bladesong is inactive.
Quite thrilling when you're fighting with high-risk.