I'm currently playing a 5th level enchantment wizard focused on battlefield control, and I'm considering taking Summon Lesser Demons when I reach 6th level. The idea I have is to pre-cast Rope Trick outside of a room full of baddies, open the door and drop a bunch of demons into the room and climb up into the extradimensional space while they do all the work, then simply drop concentration before exiting the rope trick. I'm curious what you all think about the spell in general or about this particular tactic, and if you have any other ideas for how the spell can be used.
Here's the problem. Depending on what your facing. These Demons aren't necessarily going to get the work done. Left to their own devices they are probably going to get taken down pretty quick by an average or hard encounter for your level. Though it might sufficiently weaken or destroy a weaker encounter that was just meant to soften up your group a little bit. Conjure and Summon spells tend to find the most strength when used in conjunction to your party but tend to be kind of weak when left to their own devices. This is why people tend to either find ways to buff what they summon, find some kind of cheese combination to keep their summons effective but safe, or decide to forgo them for other tactics.
demons also sometimes come with the power to summon larger demons. Alteranatively, they also weaken the barriers between a prime material plane and the abyss, corrupting it and eventually leading to a portal to the Abyss itself. So, letting them run rampant might -might- backfire horribly on you.
For the same spell level, I'd suggest considering Summon Fey. They can teleport around the map, and the Mirthful and Tricksy variants can throw around magical darkness or charm effects all day for the full hour. This is also possibly a better thematic fit for an Enchantment wizard.
demons also sometimes come with the power to summon larger demons. Alteranatively, they also weaken the barriers between a prime material plane and the abyss, corrupting it and eventually leading to a portal to the Abyss itself. So, letting them run rampant might -might- backfire horribly on you.
And then, there's the madness checks.
None of the options for the spell even have summoner variants, and a lot of DMs probably wouldn't allow that even if they did. Quasits are the highest CR demon that can be summoned with it. Letting them run rampant in, say, a dungeon isn't a big deal; they do their job, then I drop concentration and they go away. And what's this about "madness checks"?
For the same spell level, I'd suggest considering Summon Fey. They can teleport around the map, and the Mirthful and Tricksy variants can throw around magical darkness or charm effects all day for the full hour. This is also possibly a better thematic fit for an Enchantment wizard.
Thanks for the suggestion, but that's not quite what I'm going for. The reason I was looking at summon lesser demons was so that we could drop those in and let them do the dirty work for us, then mop up the rest of the enemies once they're gone. Thematically, I would flavor them as coming out of a portal that looks like a book or newspaper, Toon World style (my character is a mark of scribing gnome who's a freelance journalist in Eberron), so it would work fine. Summon fey would be better for summoning while the party is in the room and fighting, but if that's the case I already have other spells I would rather concentrate on - though it's not entirely off the table.
Thanks for the suggestion, but that's not quite what I'm going for. The reason I was looking at summon lesser demons was so that we could drop those in and let them do the dirty work for us, then mop up the rest of the enemies once they're gone. Thematically, I would flavor them as coming out of a portal that looks like a book or newspaper, Toon World style (my character is a mark of scribing gnome who's a freelance journalist in Eberron), so it would work fine. Summon fey would be better for summoning while the party is in the room and fighting, but if that's the case I already have other spells I would rather concentrate on - though it's not entirely off the table.
Ok, then let's do a side by side comparison, since you can use the same tactic for both:
Summon Fey:
AC 15
HP 30
+5 to hit, (13 avg damage)
Summon Lesser Demon (2x Quasit):
AC 13
HP 7 (Resistance to Non-magical attacks)
+4 to hit, (5 average damage)
If we ignore the special abilities, the Quasits are going to do less damage per round, die much faster, won't attack demons, and might attack you. The only possible benefit I could imagine is if your DM wouldn't simply let you command your Fey to "kill everything in here" and then let it have fun.
If we do consider special abilities, the Fey can teleport out of melee and avoid Attacks of opportunity to vastly increase survivability. The Quasit can turn invisible as an action, but that just burns actions that could be used for attacking.
Why is it that you think Summon Lesser Demons would be better for your strategy than Summon Fey (which could be reflavored as a demon, if you wish)?
If you were to summon eight of something against relatively weak opponents, you might be able to get more bang for your buck, such as 8 Abyssal Chickens.
Or you could summon something with spellcasting, like 4 Cacklers, which could attack at range, but if that's a viable option, you probably don't need to waste the spell slot.
For a single room encounter, you're really better off throwing a Fireball or something. Even if everything saves against it, you'll reliably do more damage and probably kill more creatures in the process.
Summon Fey can also be upcast to 4th level to make it twice as deadly.
Some Fey I would argue are somewhat more unpredictable and dangerous than Demon's are.
Yes, but not the ones summoned by that spell. They're fully under the caster's control, unlike what you end up with when casting Summon Lesser Demons.
They are fully Allies. While Mechanically the player might have control of them. They are not actually fully under the casters control. They are just completely inclined to work with their caster.
My question is how often do you scout ahead with a familiar? In general do you feel like you usually have time to see a battle coming? Depending on the tempo of your game you may have far fewer opportunities to do your rope trick - summon combo than you think. And more importantly, how friendly is your table to these kinds of tactics? Not everyone enjoys sitting back and watching one player do their thing. And by not everyone I mean most people, especially if it's a tactic you intend to employ often. This can very greatly from party to party though. If you're backed up with a bunch of stealthlords they can have plenty of fun setting up their own stuff while you wreak havoc. Your paladin or barbarian buddy? They'll probably end up running in at some point from sheer boredom.
There's also the question of opportunity cost. Summon Lesser Demon is not a bad spell, but level 6 is the perfect spot to take some high power rituals like Leomund's Tiny Hut or Phantom Steed, or situationally absurd spells like Counterspell. You only have so many 3rd level spell slots, so adding another "big gun" spell that competes with whatever you took at 5th has diminishing returns.
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I'm currently playing a 5th level enchantment wizard focused on battlefield control, and I'm considering taking Summon Lesser Demons when I reach 6th level. The idea I have is to pre-cast Rope Trick outside of a room full of baddies, open the door and drop a bunch of demons into the room and climb up into the extradimensional space while they do all the work, then simply drop concentration before exiting the rope trick. I'm curious what you all think about the spell in general or about this particular tactic, and if you have any other ideas for how the spell can be used.
Here's the problem. Depending on what your facing. These Demons aren't necessarily going to get the work done. Left to their own devices they are probably going to get taken down pretty quick by an average or hard encounter for your level. Though it might sufficiently weaken or destroy a weaker encounter that was just meant to soften up your group a little bit. Conjure and Summon spells tend to find the most strength when used in conjunction to your party but tend to be kind of weak when left to their own devices. This is why people tend to either find ways to buff what they summon, find some kind of cheese combination to keep their summons effective but safe, or decide to forgo them for other tactics.
demons also sometimes come with the power to summon larger demons. Alteranatively, they also weaken the barriers between a prime material plane and the abyss, corrupting it and eventually leading to a portal to the Abyss itself. So, letting them run rampant might -might- backfire horribly on you.
And then, there's the madness checks.
For the same spell level, I'd suggest considering Summon Fey. They can teleport around the map, and the Mirthful and Tricksy variants can throw around magical darkness or charm effects all day for the full hour. This is also possibly a better thematic fit for an Enchantment wizard.
None of the options for the spell even have summoner variants, and a lot of DMs probably wouldn't allow that even if they did. Quasits are the highest CR demon that can be summoned with it. Letting them run rampant in, say, a dungeon isn't a big deal; they do their job, then I drop concentration and they go away. And what's this about "madness checks"?
Thanks for the suggestion, but that's not quite what I'm going for. The reason I was looking at summon lesser demons was so that we could drop those in and let them do the dirty work for us, then mop up the rest of the enemies once they're gone. Thematically, I would flavor them as coming out of a portal that looks like a book or newspaper, Toon World style (my character is a mark of scribing gnome who's a freelance journalist in Eberron), so it would work fine. Summon fey would be better for summoning while the party is in the room and fighting, but if that's the case I already have other spells I would rather concentrate on - though it's not entirely off the table.
Ok, then let's do a side by side comparison, since you can use the same tactic for both:
Summon Fey:
Summon Lesser Demon (2x Quasit):
If we ignore the special abilities, the Quasits are going to do less damage per round, die much faster, won't attack demons, and might attack you. The only possible benefit I could imagine is if your DM wouldn't simply let you command your Fey to "kill everything in here" and then let it have fun.
If we do consider special abilities, the Fey can teleport out of melee and avoid Attacks of opportunity to vastly increase survivability. The Quasit can turn invisible as an action, but that just burns actions that could be used for attacking.
Why is it that you think Summon Lesser Demons would be better for your strategy than Summon Fey (which could be reflavored as a demon, if you wish)?
If you were to summon eight of something against relatively weak opponents, you might be able to get more bang for your buck, such as 8 Abyssal Chickens.
Or you could summon something with spellcasting, like 4 Cacklers, which could attack at range, but if that's a viable option, you probably don't need to waste the spell slot.
For a single room encounter, you're really better off throwing a Fireball or something. Even if everything saves against it, you'll reliably do more damage and probably kill more creatures in the process.
Summon Fey can also be upcast to 4th level to make it twice as deadly.
Some Fey I would argue are somewhat more unpredictable and dangerous than Demon's are.
Yes, but not the ones summoned by that spell. They're fully under the caster's control, unlike what you end up with when casting Summon Lesser Demons.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
They are fully Allies. While Mechanically the player might have control of them. They are not actually fully under the casters control. They are just completely inclined to work with their caster.
My question is how often do you scout ahead with a familiar? In general do you feel like you usually have time to see a battle coming? Depending on the tempo of your game you may have far fewer opportunities to do your rope trick - summon combo than you think. And more importantly, how friendly is your table to these kinds of tactics? Not everyone enjoys sitting back and watching one player do their thing. And by not everyone I mean most people, especially if it's a tactic you intend to employ often. This can very greatly from party to party though. If you're backed up with a bunch of stealthlords they can have plenty of fun setting up their own stuff while you wreak havoc. Your paladin or barbarian buddy? They'll probably end up running in at some point from sheer boredom.
There's also the question of opportunity cost. Summon Lesser Demon is not a bad spell, but level 6 is the perfect spot to take some high power rituals like Leomund's Tiny Hut or Phantom Steed, or situationally absurd spells like Counterspell. You only have so many 3rd level spell slots, so adding another "big gun" spell that competes with whatever you took at 5th has diminishing returns.