Dear God that Ice Spear effect is insane with no saving throw. This thing has absurd control effects, and with the ice spear being ranged a party of melee characters could just be completely unable to deal with this guy. I love this design, he is powerful and dangerous, but with just a tiny amount of planning or strategy he is beatable, a perfect balance.

I was "Well at least one creature they didnt made stupidly buffed... and that make sense" until i saw that ice spear effect and realized its no saving throw. That thing can effectively turn half a party into sitting duck without PC bei.g able to do anything about it. Why do we even still have saving throw if everything monsters do just happen?

it's basically just for spells at this point lol

Quote from VersusChaos >>

I was "Well at least one creature they didnt made stupidly buffed... and that make sense" until i saw that ice spear effect and realized its no saving throw. That thing can effectively turn half a party into sitting duck without PC bei.g able to do anything about it. Why do we even still have saving throw if everything monsters do just happen?

It's because WOTC realized that at a certain point, level 5+ PC's have so many ways of beating Saving Throws (Lucky Feat, Paladin's aura, Bless, Heroic Inspiration) that in order to challenge them, certain abilities have to trigger automatically. This is so the party actually has a challenge at higher level tiers of play. 

I'm a huge fan of this stat block. 1 Ice Devil is a real threat, as it should be. 

BTW, if you're a Human Paladin you can have ALL the effects I listed above from just yourself... more to the point why no save effects are needed at higher tier play!

Quote from Odande >>

 

Quote from VersusChaos >>

I was "Well at least one creature they didnt made stupidly buffed... and that make sense" until i saw that ice spear effect and realized its no saving throw. That thing can effectively turn half a party into sitting duck without PC bei.g able to do anything about it. Why do we even still have saving throw if everything monsters do just happen?

 

It's because WOTC realized that at a certain point, level 5+ PC's have so many ways of beating Saving Throws (Lucky Feat, Paladin's aura, Bless, Heroic Inspiration) that in order to challenge them, certain abilities have to trigger automatically. This is so the party actually has a challenge at higher level tiers of play. 

I'm a huge fan of this stat block. 1 Ice Devil is a real threat, as it should be. 

BTW, if you're a Human Paladin you can have ALL the effects I listed above from just yourself... more to the point why no save effects are needed at higher tier play!

 To build on Odande's point, I have a level 20 paladin who has a minimum of +20 with Adv, so his minimum is 21!

Quote from Odande >>

 

Quote from VersusChaos >>

I was "Well at least one creature they didnt made stupidly buffed... and that make sense" until i saw that ice spear effect and realized its no saving throw. That thing can effectively turn half a party into sitting duck without PC bei.g able to do anything about it. Why do we even still have saving throw if everything monsters do just happen?

 

It's because WOTC realized that at a certain point, level 5+ PC's have so many ways of beating Saving Throws (Lucky Feat, Paladin's aura, Bless, Heroic Inspiration) that in order to challenge them, certain abilities have to trigger automatically. This is so the party actually has a challenge at higher level tiers of play. 

I'm a huge fan of this stat block. 1 Ice Devil is a real threat, as it should be. 

BTW, if you're a Human Paladin you can have ALL the effects I listed above from just yourself... more to the point why no save effects are needed at higher tier play!

 I think the bigger issue is when those effects stack. In theory, a party of 4 level 20s should easily massacre 3 of these. In reality, it would basically come down to who wins initiative and how close quarters is the battle field. your party is completely screwed if all 4 players get hit by those spears, and since they have 9 attacks between the three of them, and its got range and always returns, odds are they can actually get all 4 players. What will you monk do with no bonus action and no flurry of blows? Your fighter is okay if he can make ranged attacks but melee he might be screwed, same with paladin since Smite is bonus action so that's out and again they have to even get close enough to begin with, no rage for the barbarian so have fun with that. hopefully you have spell casters that can make their spell count, because everyone else just became useless, Rogue is also probably useless even if he doesn't get hit, since I doubt most players will waste their turn getting close to the ice devil just to trigger sneak attack for the rogue, and that's if they can even get close enough in the first place. And the rogue cannot use steady aim either so rogue is probably just screwed in general. 

For the record I actually do enjoy this new version of the monster, but without saving throws these fights can be incredibly swingy. I ran a short 3 shot for some friends, and it was 4 level 15 characters. They encountered 2 ice devils total, both times it was a 4v1 fight. The first fight they won initiative, and it was a massacre after the ice devil missed his 2 ice spear attacks and I had him make a tail attack for the last attack. Second fight ended with a near TPK because Ice Devil went first and hit all 3 ice spears from 30 foot range. The barbarian never got to rage all fight, the fighter and monk with just 1 attack turn since they had to spend a turn moving weren't able to do much and the fighter couldn't even get to the devil because of reduced movement, but luckily the sorcerer managed to get a hold monster off on round 3 after monk went down and fighter was at like 9hp. After 1 turn of hold monster action surge fighter obliterated it thanks to all crits from hold monster. This is insanely swingy, and with no way to resist the effect there is nothing that either I the DM or the players can do. If I don't use spears for all three attacks the party knows I am pulling punches, which my table dislikes, but if I do then I am risking a TPK. This thing was far more deadly than the CR18 Amnizu that was supposed to be the final boss, and it wasn't even close. God forbid a DM play them optimally and just have them retreat 30 feet each turn, since with -10 movement speed the melee PCs could never get close. 

Once again I am not saying I hate the monster, I love it, and I fully agree that 1 ice devil should be a threat for the appropriate levels. I just think that by removing the saving throws they have made things much more challenging for the DM to actually manage and that the CR is somewhat misleading. This thing is not a CR14 if it goes first and is played well, it could easily be a TPK for the appropriate level 14 party. And honestly that goes even for level 20s. I don't know of very many min-max builds that would actually be comfortable fighting this thing if they go second. Sure, it is CR14 in stats, but that effect is absolutely brutal depending on the party composition. Fighting 3 of these and losing initiative could be a deadly fight or even a TPK for many level 20 parties depending on their composition.

There's ALOT to reply to your post Theron but here's my cliff notes:

• Correct, your martials are weak against a Devil. As it should be. They're a devil, not a goblin. Monsters that give challenge to your player's abilities is a good thing. All classes able to handle every situation is boring and defeats the purposes of classes.
• Also in your example you're mentioning 4 level ***20*** characters.... do I really need to explain every ability each level 20 has against this Devil? If you truly think 4 level 20's can't fight 1 ice devil, I invite you to test run that and see how wrong you are. 
• I cant speak for your personal test run, but if 1 ice devil was an issue for 4 level 15 characters my personal opinion is that they aren't very good at combat. They have SO many abilities at level 15. That's not even including magic items. Sorry but that's just fact. 
• This guy is not a TPK on initiative losses, not even close.

Ahh perhaps I should have been more specific, I agree that it is a good thing that it is a challenge, and I do like this iteration of the monster. As you said its a devil not a goblin, and even more than that it is a very powerful and high ranking devil so it should be a challenge, and it perfectly fills that role. However you missed the most important part of my statement regarding the level 20 party, I specifically said THREE ICE DEVILS, not one, and also I did not say it would be a TPK for level 20s, I said it would not be a fight most would want to take if they could avoid it. That is a good thing, as at least to me that means that I have more things in my DM arsenal to make challenging and interesting combat without just throwing giant CR20s at the party. 

And in regard to having SO MANY ABILITIES, I think you might underestimate just how crippling this effect is. So I will explain a bit, level 15 berserker barbarian with no bonus action cannot rage, so he has no level 3 feature which requires rage, level 6 requires rage, level 7 instinctive pounce also requires rage, level 11 is relentless rage which again requires rage, and level 14 intimidating presence also requires rage, and level 15 is persistent rage. Monk, Cannot use level 2 features as all are bonus actions, cannot use deflect attack level 3 feature because thats a reaction, cannot use extra attack or the bonus action attack, since my party monk was open hand they couldn't flurry of blows so they cannot use level 3 feature, level 6 wholeness of body needs a bonus action so thats out, level 11 fleet step requires a bonus action so thats out. Fighter cannot use second wind, or level 5 feature which requires second wind, and can only make a single attack and cannot both attack and move same turn, so champion fighter doesn't really have any ability here either. Sorcerer is a spellcaster, so yeah, she was basically fine but for the sake of your ability argument she was a Draconic sorcerer so level 3 is a passive defensive ability, level 6 is also passive, and level 14 requires a bonus action so that's out. Again, I want to stress that I am not criticizing this monster, I like the design even if I think its CR might be a bit low for such a powerful effect, it was simply an observation that such an effect makes a swingy fight and heavily depends on party composition, making these guys Ideal for climactic boss battles in my opinion. I will edit the original post to make it clear that I am not discouraging the use of the monster, as I guess it seemed like I was trying to say they are poorly designed which wasn't my intent, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

3 devils vs 4 level 20's is still highly in the PC's favor. Especially assuming level 20's have multiple Rare+ magic items. I'm not going to list the entire catalogue of abilities level 20 characters have, but if the players are not using those abilities that's a failure on them. 

Level 20 PC's are demi gods. If they cannot handle 3 devils, its a wonder how they got to level 20 in the first place. 

EDIT: Also, you've been reading Ice Spear wrong. You *can* multi attack:

" ...can move or take one action on its turn, not both". Extra attack = 1 action. So if you were telling your PC's they could only do 1 attack, that's unfortunately a fault on yourself for misreading the ability. It happens. 

Yeah I just realized that. We actually all messed that up, because we thought it was 1 action meaning 1 attack, just like the effect of the slow spell since it shares so much in common with that spell. It wasn't until you commented that I went back and looked at how that is worded. Not a huge change, since most just get 2 attacks and the monk is still screwed and barbarian still cannot rage, but for the fighter that is a huge difference and a massive mistake on my part. As DM I royally messed that up. I stand by the fact that you seem to overestimate abilities, but as far as magic items go that is far to variable to really take into account. CR is calculated assuming no magic items, so that is how I evaluated the monster. With magic items a level 5 paladin could easily kill this if he wins initiative, so magic items are just to hard to really calculate which is why they are not factored into the CR, at least they weren't in 2014. Since they never actually gave us the CR breakdown for 2024 I can't say for certain in that regard.

I think it is a huge change... your characters are getting 1-3 (depending on class) attacks. Level 20 Fighter gets 4. Thats a dramatic change in damage output. 

If we're still talking about out the 1 devil vs 4 lvl 20's you should realize that the devil DOESNT auto hit. It also only has 3 attacks meaning it at most can hit only 3 players. Meaning, 1 player at level 20 still has full economy. And every attack the devil misses is another player with full economy. And that's assuming the players don't go before it does. Because if they do, that devil is done for.

Oh i fully agree 1v4 isn't a fight at all, thats why I said 3 devils vs 4 players. But I digress, this was never meant to be saying that it would be a TPK, just me saying that we 3 of these you can make a good combat, and maybe even a truly terrifying one, for even a level 20 party. I wish more monsters had effects that mess with action economy like this, though maybe not to this extreme, since its an interesting effect that requires some level of counter play and is actually interactive, as opposed to the Empyrean just hitting for stupid damage and also auto stunning, or noble prodigy just auto charming with no save. This type of effect is actually interactive and still lets the player do something, which is what I hope they use more often. I could see a toned down version that just says no bonus actions being interesting at CR5, or something similar. If they are determined to remove saving throws, then having effects that don't just remove the player for an entire turn is a much better choice than stunned, charmed, paralyzed etc....

Quote from theron >>

 I think the bigger issue is when those effects stack. In theory, a party of 4 level 20s should easily massacre 3 of these. In reality, it would basically come down to who wins initiative and how close quarters is the battle field. your party is completely screwed if all 4 players get hit by those spears, and since they have 9 attacks between the three of them, and its got range and always returns, odds are they can actually get all 4 players. What will you monk do with no bonus action and no flurry of blows? Your fighter is okay if he can make ranged attacks but melee he might be screwed, same with paladin since Smite is bonus action so that's out and again they have to even get close enough to begin with, no rage for the barbarian so have fun with that. hopefully you have spell casters that can make their spell count, because everyone else just became useless, Rogue is also probably useless even if he doesn't get hit, since I doubt most players will waste their turn getting close to the ice devil just to trigger sneak attack for the rogue, and that's if they can even get close enough in the first place. And the rogue cannot use steady aim either so rogue is probably just screwed in general. 

For the record I actually do enjoy this new version of the monster, but without saving throws these fights can be incredibly swingy. I ran a short 3 shot for some friends, and it was 4 level 15 characters. They encountered 2 ice devils total, both times it was a 4v1 fight. The first fight they won initiative, and it was a massacre after the ice devil missed his 2 ice spear attacks and I had him make a tail attack for the last attack. Second fight ended with a near TPK because Ice Devil went first and hit all 3 ice spears from 30 foot range. The barbarian never got to rage all fight, the fighter and monk with just 1 attack turn since they had to spend a turn moving weren't able to do much and the fighter couldn't even get to the devil because of reduced movement, but luckily the sorcerer managed to get a hold monster off on round 3 after monk went down and fighter was at like 9hp. After 1 turn of hold monster action surge fighter obliterated it thanks to all crits from hold monster. This is insanely swingy, and with no way to resist the effect there is nothing that either I the DM or the players can do. If I don't use spears for all three attacks the party knows I am pulling punches, which my table dislikes, but if I do then I am risking a TPK. This thing was far more deadly than the CR18 Amnizu that was supposed to be the final boss, and it wasn't even close. God forbid a DM play them optimally and just have them retreat 30 feet each turn, since with -10 movement speed the melee PCs could never get close. 

Once again I am not saying I hate the monster, I love it, and I fully agree that 1 ice devil should be a threat for the appropriate levels. I just think that by removing the saving throws they have made things much more challenging for the DM to actually manage and that the CR is somewhat misleading. This thing is not a CR14 if it goes first and is played well, it could easily be a TPK for the appropriate level 14 party. And honestly that goes even for level 20s. I don't know of very many min-max builds that would actually be comfortable fighting this thing if they go second. Sure, it is CR14 in stats, but that effect is absolutely brutal depending on the party composition. Fighting 3 of these and losing initiative could be a deadly fight or even a TPK for many level 20 parties depending on their composition.

you DID say this would be a TPK. Several times. See bolded above. And you're wrong also. If your party is kitted with level appropriate items, actually knows combat and is utilizing their abilities, 1-3 Ice Devils is a decent fight against a level 20 party. Keep in mind the players have an abundance of stun lock type abilities too which is why the Ice Spear, which you yourself admitted you read wrong, does not require a save. And I must reiterate: Ice Spear is not an auto hit. There are so many abilities your level 20's have that can make attacks miss/they should be pumping 20+ AC anyhow.