1st! quick question: do we have any more info on the Vecna adventure.

2nd! I'm excited to play the revised monk :D

Oh man I'm so excited for the new books, especially the art!

Quote from Bigbossduckman >>

"But if you love your summoned creatures, worry not. The Player's Handbook will include the summoning spells from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything."
Yeah, but those spells suck compared to the Tasha ones, I want to summon the actual fire elementals and hags and bears and whatnot, not store brand featureless grey blobs that just say theyre fey or whatever, it also makes being a shepherd druid pointless since all their features work with the old conjuring spells, these new conjuring spells dont even conjure anything, they should just make new spells instead of replacing them that are only conjuring spells in name, I'm for sure never using 5.5e now.
Summoning just became less fun when I have to use Tasha's summoning spells.
Which is ironic to say since she's like known for conjuring demons and other stuff and would never use those spells when she has much better ones like the 5e conjure spells.

 
Crawford danced around saying it out of politeness, but the reason they are getting rid of the old style of spells is threefold - incompetent players who do not know how to run their creatures, slow players who take forever to take their turns when controlling both their character and summons, and inconsiderate players who fall into one or both of the prior categories and do not realise it.  When Crawford was talking about design difficulties, that is what he meant—these spells resulted in everyone else at the table hating the player who used summons.

The new system gives those who want to use summons something they can use without having to actually pilot an additional monster.  It gives them an option for summoning an add which is streamlined, so they only have to learn one modular stat block instead of a bunch of different ones. And, of course, all 2014 spells are going to function under the 2024 rules - if you were a competent person with your 2014 adds, you can (with DM permission), still use the legacy version, so nothing is really going away.

Furthermore, Shepherd Druid works with the Tasha spells, so it will still work fine - it just will be a bit more linear as a default, with a more complicated set of legacy options for the advanced, competent player.

yes, this exactly.

I do wish the "summon" version let you summon multiple once you reach high levels, though. If you're playing a level 15 character, you probably do know how to roll a few extra dice. Unfortunately since I play a lot of AL, I don't expect to get the option of "can I please use the 2014 version?" - I'm just SOL.

Quote from Bigbossduckman >>

I also just realized that if the old conjuration spells aren't intact then the shepherd druid doesn't work, which makes 5.5e not backwards compatible like they promised it would be.
5.5 now conflicts with 5e without a doubt.

 They never promised effortless compatibility, you'll have to tweak a few things.

In the case of the Shepherd Druid, those benefits transfer fairly cleanly to the Tasha's Summons, and also tone down the subclass' power. Win-win!

Quote from Bigbossduckman >>

That sounds like a lose-lose since the subclass is worse no matter what.
I shouldn't have to tweak anything, it should work effortlessly if they're advertising it as backwards compatible, this is only backwards compatible if you have to change the new rules even more on your own, they did not take into account that this exists if they're advertising it as backwards compatible.

If you really want zero effort your old books still exist; that takes no effort at all. Demanding the same from books where changes are mandatory is just entitlement.

And Faithful Summons letting you get an upcast concentration-free Summon Beast/Fey/Elemental/Draconic Spirit to guard you when you go down seems pretty trivial.

Quote from Bigbossduckman >>

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

Quote from Bigbossduckman >>

"But if you love your summoned creatures, worry not. The Player's Handbook will include the summoning spells from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything."
Yeah, but those spells suck compared to the Tasha ones, I want to summon the actual fire elementals and hags and bears and whatnot, not store brand featureless grey blobs that just say theyre fey or whatever, it also makes being a shepherd druid pointless since all their features work with the old conjuring spells, these new conjuring spells dont even conjure anything, they should just make new spells instead of replacing them that are only conjuring spells in name, I'm for sure never using 5.5e now.
Summoning just became less fun when I have to use Tasha's summoning spells.
Which is ironic to say since she's like known for conjuring demons and other stuff and would never use those spells when she has much better ones like the 5e conjure spells.

 
Crawford danced around saying it out of politeness, but the reason they are getting rid of the old style of spells is threefold - incompetent players who do not know how to run their creatures, slow players who take forever to take their turns when controlling both their character and summons, and inconsiderate players who fall into one or both of the prior categories and do not realise it.  When Crawford was talking about design difficulties, that is what he meant—these spells resulted in everyone else at the table hating the player who used summons.

The new system gives those who want to use summons something they can use without having to actually pilot an additional monster.  It gives them an option for summoning an add which is streamlined, so they only have to learn one modular stat block instead of a bunch of different ones. And, of course, all 2014 spells are going to function under the 2024 rules - if you were a competent person with your 2014 adds, you can (with DM permission), still use the legacy version, so nothing is really going away.

Furthermore, Shepherd Druid works with the Tasha spells, so it will still work fine - it just will be a bit more linear as a default, with a more complicated set of legacy options for the advanced, competent player.

 You're wrong about the nothing is going away, when they make something into "legacy content" then they stop selling the old books so new players don't have access to it and have to resort to piracy to get it.
Which is baffling, it's more money for the company if they keep selling the 5e books and not labeling it as legacy content, so, they are supporting piracy by taking away content from new players.
You're also wrong about the Tasha's spells, it uses conjure animals as it's 14th level feature, as in the one that actually conjures animals.
As a DM, I'll never use these new "conjure" spells since they don't even conjure anything, and I don't want to take away things from my players, I'm not gonna nerf their summoning spells like WOTC wants to do, I don't even use Tasha summon spells because of how bad they are compared to the 5e conjure spells.

 You don't have to "resort to piracy." Anyone who owns the legacy content on DDB can share it with you (or the new players you claim to be worried about) by being in a campaign together, letting you access it freely. Or you can buy the books secondhand.

And if you want to stick with the old conjure spells at your table, feel free, they're not going anywhere. Most of them are in the current SRD so you can even download the free PDF for reference.

Quote from Bigbossduckman >>

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

Quote from Bigbossduckman >>

"But if you love your summoned creatures, worry not. The Player's Handbook will include the summoning spells from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything."
Yeah, but those spells suck compared to the Tasha ones, I want to summon the actual fire elementals and hags and bears and whatnot, not store brand featureless grey blobs that just say theyre fey or whatever, it also makes being a shepherd druid pointless since all their features work with the old conjuring spells, these new conjuring spells dont even conjure anything, they should just make new spells instead of replacing them that are only conjuring spells in name, I'm for sure never using 5.5e now.
Summoning just became less fun when I have to use Tasha's summoning spells.
Which is ironic to say since she's like known for conjuring demons and other stuff and would never use those spells when she has much better ones like the 5e conjure spells.

 
Crawford danced around saying it out of politeness, but the reason they are getting rid of the old style of spells is threefold - incompetent players who do not know how to run their creatures, slow players who take forever to take their turns when controlling both their character and summons, and inconsiderate players who fall into one or both of the prior categories and do not realise it.  When Crawford was talking about design difficulties, that is what he meant—these spells resulted in everyone else at the table hating the player who used summons.

The new system gives those who want to use summons something they can use without having to actually pilot an additional monster.  It gives them an option for summoning an add which is streamlined, so they only have to learn one modular stat block instead of a bunch of different ones. And, of course, all 2014 spells are going to function under the 2024 rules - if you were a competent person with your 2014 adds, you can (with DM permission), still use the legacy version, so nothing is really going away.

Furthermore, Shepherd Druid works with the Tasha spells, so it will still work fine - it just will be a bit more linear as a default, with a more complicated set of legacy options for the advanced, competent player.

 You're wrong about the nothing is going away, when they make something into "legacy content" then they stop selling the old books so new players don't have access to it and have to resort to piracy to get it.
Which is baffling, it's more money for the company if they keep selling the 5e books and not labeling it as legacy content, so, they are supporting piracy by taking away content from new players.
You're also wrong about the Tasha's spells, it uses conjure animals as it's 14th level feature, as in the one that actually conjures animals.
As a DM, I'll never use these new "conjure" spells since they don't even conjure anything, and I don't want to take away things from my players, I'm not gonna nerf their summoning spells like WOTC wants to do, I don't even use Tasha summon spells because of how bad they are compared to the 5e conjure spells.

First off, it is not “supporting piracy” - that is hyperbolic nonsense.  You are absolutely and always have been allowed to purchase physical books on the secondary market; always have been allowed to upload content to Beyond’s homebrew as long as you do not share it publicly.  Making the old spells work is not going to be all that hard for those who want to use them.

Second, you clearly do not understand how business works—there actually are detrimental to selling old product, including competing against yourself, confusing customers who might inadvertently buy substantially similar content to things they already own, etc.  

Third, Tasha’s spells absolutely work with the third level feature; the 14th level feature will still work with the new version, automatically casting the new version at 9th level (the remainder of that feature is basically flavour text).  Or you could just run and cast the legacy version. Or you could turn the Legacy version into that class feature, even if you do not have the Legacy version on your spell list.  This is all a problem common sense solves.

Granted, you and your group are welcome to play however you want - and if you want to stick with the 2014 5e rules, you do you.  But your wrath at the changes is a bit mind-boggling—not to mention internally inconsistent, considering your first post was you complaining from a player perspective, now you are trying to paint it as a complaint from the DM perspective.

The reality? These spells needed to change.  It has long been documented that folks running summons cause problems at the table due to their incredibly long, not overly impactful, boring to watch turns.  Spells that encourage slow and inconsiderate play are bad game design, and any game developer or DM with a basic understanding of how to run a game can see why they have no place in the game.  

Quote from Bigbossduckman >>

We want conjure animals, not 5'5's conjure animals at home or Tasha's summon spells to replace it.

As the overwhelming majority of your post demonstrates you have not actually been reading what I wrote, I will not bother to copy it here.  The fact that you think “balance” is at all relevant to why these spells have been reworked indicates you did not read any of my points. But, since you have not read my prior posts, in my last response to you, I wanted to spell this out as simply and clearly as I could:

No one is saying the old spells were unbalanced—Crawford and others were saying they were slow to play, resulting in players taking far too long to execute their turns.  Even competent players might take long turns; new players or inexperienced players took exceptionally long turns.

Wizards saw this as a problem, since it resulted in a “team game” where a lot of folks were twiddling their thumbs every combat, waiting for folks to finish their extremely long turn of “oh wait, I have to find out what stat block to use, now I have to remember what this monster does, now let me take my monsters’ turns on top of mine.”  I think every player who has ever been subjugated to the long turns of summoned monsters likely agrees that they needed an update—every player except those main character syndrome types who, due to lack of empathy or lack of caring, did not notice or mind that everyone else at the table was sick of how long each round of combat took the summoner. 

So, let me end with this final thought - your use of “we” in the part I bothered to quote is misplaced.  These spells polled at over 70% approval; over 70% of players realise the old spells are bad game design and needed to be changed. Your view that the spells need not be updated is not only in a minority, it is overwhelming the minority view.

The overwhelming majority of players agree with Crawford—spells that encourage selfish and slow turns do not belong in the default version of the game.

"Compatibility" means compatible with the core rules, monsters and adventures.

But if spells change, and there are (sub)classes that are built around those spells, then the (sub)classes will presumably get changed as well.

Or...you could continue to use the 2014 Shepard Druid along with the 2014 version of those spells if you wanted to.

Quote from Bigbossduckman >>

They haven't made a 5.5 Shepherd druid since it's in Xanathar's Guide to Everything and not the 5e player's handbook, and they're going to make it so new players don't have access to the 5e players handbook, so new players are going to be stuck with a 14th level feature that doesn't work because they changed the spell so it works completely differently, therefore, 5.5 is not compatible with 5e since it conflicts with 5.5 and the way they're changing things, and they kept advertising that it's backward compatible.
They can only do that by keeping spells the way they are in 5e.
Grave domains clerics also get a feature that becomes redundant because they changed spare the dying to do exactly what the grave domain feature does.
They either don't proof read what changes they're making or they are straight up just lying about the backwards compatible thing they've been saying over and over again.

You're still misinterpreting what they meant by compatibility.

My previous comment about the Shepard Druid and the conjuring spells applies to the Grave cleric and Spare the Dying. If they don't come up with a new version of the Shepard druid or Grave cleric (you never know - they might do!), then if you want to play those sub-classes you can use the older version of the spells. Though I guess it would be up to the DM as to what they want to use or allow.

Quote from Bigbossduckman >>

Quote from RJP1973 >>

Quote from Bigbossduckman >>

They haven't made a 5.5 Shepherd druid since it's in Xanathar's Guide to Everything and not the 5e player's handbook, and they're going to make it so new players don't have access to the 5e players handbook, so new players are going to be stuck with a 14th level feature that doesn't work because they changed the spell so it works completely differently, therefore, 5.5 is not compatible with 5e since it conflicts with 5.5 and the way they're changing things, and they kept advertising that it's backward compatible.
They can only do that by keeping spells the way they are in 5e.
Grave domains clerics also get a feature that becomes redundant because they changed spare the dying to do exactly what the grave domain feature does.
They either don't proof read what changes they're making or they are straight up just lying about the backwards compatible thing they've been saying over and over again.

You're still misinterpreting what they meant by compatibility.

My previous comment about the Shepard Druid and the conjuring spells applies to the Grave cleric and Spare the Dying. If they don't come up with a new version of the Shepard druid or Grave cleric (you never know - they might do!), then if you want to play those sub-classes you can use the older version of the spells. Though I guess it would be up to the DM as to what they want to use or allow.

 

But the point is, they are advertising 5.5 as backwards compatible, if they are making it so a spell doesn't function at all with a class or subclass or makes a feature useless, then they have failed at making it backwards compatible.
You will have to wait probably another year to get a fix to make the Shepherd druid compatible with 5.5, if they ever do, and I'm not buying Xanathar's twice, it should be compatible from the beginning but they broke it before 5.5 even released, they shouldn't have ever messed with the spells if they cared about the editions being compatible.
And in the meanwhile new players who didn't buy the 5e players handbook before 5.5 comes out will be stuck with broken subclasses that don't work because WOTC won't let you buy the 5e player's handbook for the spells that make the subclasses function.

Some aspects of the rules are, for better or for worse, linked together, e.g. Shepard Druid and conjuring spells. If you want to update the game and make things better (and, I'm not saying Wizards are perfect by any means, but it makes no business sense to try and make the game worse) then you have to change things. Simple as that.

And you're still misinterpreting what they said about backwards compatibility. No matter how much you repeat yourself, it doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. If you take your specific version of backwards compatibility then they literally would not be able to change anything!

I also don't understand your last sentence. If you owned Tasha's before (which you would need to have for the Shepard druid) but didn't have the 5e Players book, then you still wouldn't have the spells you're referring to so would still be "stuck". Unless you were able to use the spells anyway, because someone else at the table owned it. In which case, you can still carry on doing that.

To top it off...looking at the Shepard druid, their features would still work with the newer Tasha's summoning spells (which will be in the new book). Admittedly the features would apply to less spells now, so I would hope that any newer version of this subclass that did come out would get a boost to compensate.

Also. I'm sure the videos have mentioned the newer book having more subclasses in it (they've already previewed a couple of new ones). There is still hope that some of the more well-received subclasses from Tasha's will make it in!

I’ll try one more time to help you understand, Bigbossduckman.

You are complaining about backwards compatibility and saying it does not exist.

Others have told you that it will be backwards compatible, because you can pick and choose what version of the spells exist and both can exist within the 2024 rules system.

You are ignoring them and continuing to pretend the game will not be backwards compatible. 

Not only have you been conclusively shown to be wrong about your backwards compatibility claim, you have indirectly proven the very reason the spell needed to change.  After all, the spell needed to change because it caused slow gameplay, and because some players either did not pick up on the verbal/nonverbal communications from other players telegraphing their being annoyed, or they just did not care enough to think about the other players’ point of view.

In your support of the old versions, you have not picked up on the communications of others (actively ignoring points you did not like; “responding” to points others did not make, showing you did not actually read their posts) and you have literally said you did not care what others thought on the topic.

And that is why there is nothing else to really be said to you—you only have two ways you can really respond, and each of them is an admission that you are incorrect.  The first is to admit the clear truth others have been trying to show you - “Gee, I guess they are the textbook definition of backwards compatible—after all, you can still plug your 2014 versions into the 2024 system and that will work, as the fundamental systems are the same (saving throws, attack rolls, skills, movement, etc.).  It is just like when a game system is backwards compatible—that means you can plug the old things into the new and they work; it doesn’t mean there will not be new versions of those old things also.”  Your second option is to respond in any other way, regardless of content, as that will continue to undermine your own position by providing further anecdotal evidence as to why the spell needed to change.  

Really hope the Cover Art gets previewed/shown soon!

Quote from Bigbossduckman >>

Quote from PsyrenXY >>

Quote from Bigbossduckman >>

I also just realized that if the old conjuration spells aren't intact then the shepherd druid doesn't work, which makes 5.5e not backwards compatible like they promised it would be.
5.5 now conflicts with 5e without a doubt.

 They never promised effortless compatibility, you'll have to tweak a few things.

In the case of the Shepherd Druid, those benefits transfer fairly cleanly to the Tasha's Summons, and also tone down the subclass' power. Win-win!

That sounds like a lose-lose since the subclass is worse no matter what.
I shouldn't have to tweak anything, it should work effortlessly if they're advertising it as backwards compatible, this is only backwards compatible if you have to change the new rules even more on your own, they did not take into account that this exists if they're advertising it as backwards compatible.

Faithful Summons

Starting at 14th level, the nature spirits you commune with protect you when you are the most defenseless. If you are reduced to 0 hit points or are incapacitated against your will, you can immediately gain the benefits of conjure animals as if it were cast using a 9th-level spell slot. It summons four beasts of your choice that are challenge rating 2 or lower. The conjured beasts appear within 20 feet of you. If they receive no commands from you, they protect you from harm and attack your foes. The spell lasts for 1 hour, requiring no concentration, or until you dismiss it (no action required).

Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a long rest.

This is not compatible with 5.5 if they change conjure animals into something that doesn't even conjure animals, this feature does not use the Tasha's summon spells, it uses conjure animals, and I wouldn't want it to since they're a major downgrade from the original conjure animals and the other conjure spells.

Seems like an easy fix for me, just get rid of the part that talks about conjure animals and say "when you're reduced to 0 HP you summon four beasts of challenge rating 2 or lower. The conjured beasts appear within 20 feet of you. If they receive no commands from you, they protect you from harm and attack your foes. The beasts last for 1 hour, requiring no concentration, or until you dismiss them (no action required)."

I would say a 9th level concentration-free Tasha Summon appearing as a bodyguard if you go down would be far, far more effective a capstone than 4 CR2 monsters that a CR14 enemy could sneeze into oblivion. If anything, Bigboss should be eager to get their DM to greenlight some common-sense changes to the Shepherd Druid.

Re: complaints about spell changes — Then just use the original spells? Pretty sure only your DM can stop you.