Like the title says - I'm wondering about the mechanics for Hex (or any other similar spell that affects when you damage a creature)
When things say "when you damage them" does that extend to your eldrich cannon or steel defender? You command them to attack, and you roll your spell attack... I would guess yes. But want to see what others say
Yes. The Force Ballista option would indeed trigger the damage from Hex.
The wording for Hex specifies that the damage is applied when you hit the cursed creature with an attack.
The wording for Force Ballista states "Make a ranged spell attack, originating from the cannon." Mechanically speaking you are the one making the attack so if that attack hits it would trigger the damage from hex.
The flame thrower option would not trigger hex as that's not an "attack" in the mechanical sense.
Hex isn't an artificers spell, so I wouldn't assume it could work in the spell storing item.
Thanks for the replies... it is interesting that you both don't think the flamethrower version of the cannon would count.... When the flamethrower makes an attack, the target's save is against your spell casting DC , so I would see it as similar to the ballista cannon; that the attack comes from you essentially.
When the flamethrower makes an attack, the target's save is against your spell casting DC , so I would see it as similar to the ballista cannon; that the attack comes from you essentially.
That's the thing. The Flamethrower doesn't make an attack roll - which Hex requires. Instead it forces a saving throw on the opponent - much like Fireball.
In D&D generally when a spell or feature counts as an "attack" it includes the words "make an ranged spell attack" or "make a melee weapon attack" or something similar. Generally speaking when a spell or feature instead tells you that an affected creature must "make a ______ saving throw" then it doesn't count as an attack.
So The force ballista option counts as an attack, the flamethrower does not.
In game terms the flamethrower doesn't make an attack, instead the creatures it targets make saving throws.
While holding the object, a creature can take an action to produce the spell’s effect from it
This is just like most objects that allow spellcasting. It is still the person holding the SSI that is casting the spell - not the object itself. Certainly the object is aiding because otherwise non-spellcasters couldn't use it - but that won't stop an attack spell being cast through it being affected by Hex.
I should have been more precise in my post- if you have hex on a target and say scorching ray in the SSI it's unclear if using the SSI would allow hex to trigger. The item is producing the spell so you aren't hitting them with an attack.
Thanks. I get the issue with SSI. But... poor choice of example? Scorching Ray isn't an artificer spell now is it? ... is it? ... Youre not saying I can put 10 Scorching Rays in a Spell storing item ?!! Because that would be NICE.
OR is the common interpretation for the SSI that the spells available to each subclass count? That is, the artillerist would be able to put Scorching Ray in the SSI? It does say in the RAW that these spells count at Artificer spells. Please tell me this is the common interpretation! I really want 10 SR to blast foes into oblivion! Stacked with Arcane Firearm and potentially HEX? Yes please.
I should have been more precise in my post- if you have hex on a target and say scorching ray in the SSI it's unclear if using the SSI would allow hex to trigger. The item is producing the spell so you aren't hitting them with an attack.
Thanks. I get the issue with SSI. But... poor choice of example? Scorching Ray isn't an artificer spell now is it? ... is it? ... Youre not saying I can put 10 Scorching Rays in a Spell storing item ?!! Because that would be NICE.
OR is the common interpretation for the SSI that the spells available to each subclass count? That is, the artillerist would be able to put Scorching Ray in the SSI? It does say in the RAW that these spells count at Artificer spells. Please tell me this is the common interpretation! I really want 10 SR to blast foes into oblivion! Stacked with Arcane Firearm and potentially HEX? Yes please.
Artificer subclass spells are Artificer spells, which means they're on the Artificer spell list for that Artificer. That means they can be put into an SSI. For an Artillerist, this is actually far more powerful on Shatter than Scorching Ray, because the Artillerist 1d8 applies to all targets of Shatter but only one of the Scorching Ray rays (per cast).
Other than you can't apply arcane firearm bonus to SSI yea. Artillerist is low key a pretty solid aoe blaster.
At level 9 blast a horde with flamethrower and use a ready action to cause it to explode is 7d8. Not bad for a first level spell slot in a single turn. Toss on a familiar dropping a shatter or web and you are knocking on the door of full caster numbers.
Just checked, and the tl;dr is that it's GM fiat, completely. SSI doesn't clarify what its action even is, so it could be Use Item (multiclassed Thieves rejoice), Cast a Spell, or neither (the SSI isn't a Magic Item, so the DMG rule stopping it from being Use Item doesn't apply but still sets precedent), and there's literally no RAW to guide you other than that the action is an action and it produces the effect of the spell.
Other than you can't apply arcane firearm bonus to SSI yea. Artillerist is low key a pretty solid aoe blaster.
At level 9 blast a horde with flamethrower and use a ready action to cause it to explode is 7d8. Not bad for a first level spell slot in a single turn. Toss on a familiar dropping a shatter or web and you are knocking on the door of full caster numbers.
it's GM fiat, completely.
hahha.. I'm sorry.. I'm new to the board. What is "GM fiat"?
Other than you can't apply arcane firearm bonus to SSI yea. Artillerist is low key a pretty solid aoe blaster.
At level 9 blast a horde with flamethrower and use a ready action to cause it to explode is 7d8. Not bad for a first level spell slot in a single turn. Toss on a familiar dropping a shatter or web and you are knocking on the door of full caster numbers.
it's GM fiat, completely.
hahha.. I'm sorry.. I'm new to the board. What is "GM fiat"?
GM is how I instinctively abbreviate Dungeon Master, because I am used to the term Game Master instead. I apologize for any confusion!
The tl;dr is that I'm referring to the GM making a ruling (in this case, because the RAW is insufficient for players to know up front how the rule works).
Other than you can't apply arcane firearm bonus to SSI yea. Artillerist is low key a pretty solid aoe blaster.
At level 9 blast a horde with flamethrower and use a ready action to cause it to explode is 7d8. Not bad for a first level spell slot in a single turn. Toss on a familiar dropping a shatter or web and you are knocking on the door of full caster numbers.
Just checked, and the tl;dr is that it's GM fiat, completely. SSI doesn't clarify what its action even is, so it could be Use Item (multiclassed Thieves rejoice), Cast a Spell, or neither (the SSI isn't a Magic Item, so the DMG rule stopping it from being Use Item doesn't apply but still sets precedent), and there's literally no RAW to guide you other than that the action is an action and it produces the effect of the spell.
SSI follows the use a Mage item rules. It is an infusion which is effectively like a magic item but with Caveats.
While holding the object, a creature can take an action to produce the spell’s effect from it
This is just like most objects that allow spellcasting. It is still the person holding the SSI that is casting the spell - not the object itself. Certainly the object is aiding because otherwise non-spellcasters couldn't use it - but that won't stop an attack spell being cast through it being affected by Hex.
This is wrong. The spell being cast is being cast from the item. This is why most of them have charges or require spells to be cast into them prior to funcioning. it is not the one activating the item casting the spell. It is the item casting the spell. The Item is providing the spell or energy to make the spell work and not the player. The items that function off of the characters stats are for how effectively they control the energy for the spell that is produced and you'll find they either work in one of three ways. They either require no attack or save and thus they just work, Or more commonly it's either that they have a set DC for the saves made such as in the Necklace of fireballs, Or they are class attuned and use your stats because they are designed to allow a caster have greater control and potential use out of them such as the Staff of the Magi.
It is not the creature that is using the item casting the spell at all and that's why they function this way and potentially function for somebody that can't cast magic. The Item is doing most or all of the work and the user just knows how to trigger the effect when they want it.
In that case how does it work with storing Self targetting spells like Alter Self? If it's the SSI casting the spell then it must be the target of a Self targetting spell? That can't be right at all.
And it doesn't matter if somebody can't cast spells usually because the SSI gives them the ability to do so by using their action - with no class or alignment or level restrictions.
Like the title says - I'm wondering about the mechanics for Hex (or any other similar spell that affects when you damage a creature)
When things say "when you damage them" does that extend to your eldrich cannon or steel defender? You command them to attack, and you roll your spell attack... I would guess yes. But want to see what others say
Yes. The Force Ballista option would indeed trigger the damage from Hex.
The wording for Hex specifies that the damage is applied when you hit the cursed creature with an attack.
The wording for Force Ballista states "Make a ranged spell attack, originating from the cannon." Mechanically speaking you are the one making the attack so if that attack hits it would trigger the damage from hex.
The flame thrower option would not trigger hex as that's not an "attack" in the mechanical sense.
Hex isn't an artificers spell, so I wouldn't assume it could work in the spell storing item.
Thanks for the replies... it is interesting that you both don't think the flamethrower version of the cannon would count.... When the flamethrower makes an attack, the target's save is against your spell casting DC , so I would see it as similar to the ballista cannon; that the attack comes from you essentially.
That's the thing. The Flamethrower doesn't make an attack roll - which Hex requires. Instead it forces a saving throw on the opponent - much like Fireball.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
In D&D generally when a spell or feature counts as an "attack" it includes the words "make an ranged spell attack" or "make a melee weapon attack" or something similar.
Generally speaking when a spell or feature instead tells you that an affected creature must "make a ______ saving throw" then it doesn't count as an attack.
So The force ballista option counts as an attack, the flamethrower does not.
In game terms the flamethrower doesn't make an attack, instead the creatures it targets make saving throws.
Ok! Sounds good. Thanks for the replies all!
Yes, Hex stacks with Scorching Ray. Quite painfully.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
This is just like most objects that allow spellcasting. It is still the person holding the SSI that is casting the spell - not the object itself. Certainly the object is aiding because otherwise non-spellcasters couldn't use it - but that won't stop an attack spell being cast through it being affected by Hex.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Thanks. I get the issue with SSI. But... poor choice of example? Scorching Ray isn't an artificer spell now is it? ... is it? ... Youre not saying I can put 10 Scorching Rays in a Spell storing item ?!! Because that would be NICE.
OR is the common interpretation for the SSI that the spells available to each subclass count? That is, the artillerist would be able to put Scorching Ray in the SSI? It does say in the RAW that these spells count at Artificer spells. Please tell me this is the common interpretation! I really want 10 SR to blast foes into oblivion! Stacked with Arcane Firearm and potentially HEX? Yes please.
Artificer subclass spells are Artificer spells, which means they're on the Artificer spell list for that Artificer. That means they can be put into an SSI. For an Artillerist, this is actually far more powerful on Shatter than Scorching Ray, because the Artillerist 1d8 applies to all targets of Shatter but only one of the Scorching Ray rays (per cast).
Just checked, and the tl;dr is that it's GM fiat, completely. SSI doesn't clarify what its action even is, so it could be Use Item (multiclassed Thieves rejoice), Cast a Spell, or neither (the SSI isn't a Magic Item, so the DMG rule stopping it from being Use Item doesn't apply but still sets precedent), and there's literally no RAW to guide you other than that the action is an action and it produces the effect of the spell.
hahha.. I'm sorry.. I'm new to the board. What is "GM fiat"?
GM is how I instinctively abbreviate Dungeon Master, because I am used to the term Game Master instead. I apologize for any confusion!
Here's what fiat means: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fiat
The tl;dr is that I'm referring to the GM making a ruling (in this case, because the RAW is insufficient for players to know up front how the rule works).
SSI follows the use a Mage item rules. It is an infusion which is effectively like a magic item but with Caveats.
This is wrong. The spell being cast is being cast from the item. This is why most of them have charges or require spells to be cast into them prior to funcioning. it is not the one activating the item casting the spell. It is the item casting the spell. The Item is providing the spell or energy to make the spell work and not the player. The items that function off of the characters stats are for how effectively they control the energy for the spell that is produced and you'll find they either work in one of three ways. They either require no attack or save and thus they just work, Or more commonly it's either that they have a set DC for the saves made such as in the Necklace of fireballs, Or they are class attuned and use your stats because they are designed to allow a caster have greater control and potential use out of them such as the Staff of the Magi.
It is not the creature that is using the item casting the spell at all and that's why they function this way and potentially function for somebody that can't cast magic. The Item is doing most or all of the work and the user just knows how to trigger the effect when they want it.
In that case how does it work with storing Self targetting spells like Alter Self? If it's the SSI casting the spell then it must be the target of a Self targetting spell? That can't be right at all.
And it doesn't matter if somebody can't cast spells usually because the SSI gives them the ability to do so by using their action - with no class or alignment or level restrictions.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).