Background: I am playing in a new group and I've never played artificer before (or been in a group with one). The rest group make up is 2 melee tanks (1 ftr, 1 pally), a life cleric, a bard (with inspiring leader), and a slot that sometimes will be a rogue and other times a warlock. Seeing as temps are covered (inspiring leader), healing is covered (life cleric and a few back-ups), I suspect my combat role to mostly be a blaster.
Conundrum: What's puzzling me is I would assume that Artillerist is the right path for the job, but when I do some quick DPR (sure its only one measuremrent) math in the low tier (did some quick calcs 3-8th level) I am a tad surprised to see that on average Artillerist (Firebolt + Cannon) sits a little behind a BattleSmith (d10 W + Steel Defender). At 3rd level, 18 stat and 15 target ac I get 9.7 for Art and 11.225 BS, and at 5th level with same stats 16.7 Art vs 18.925 BS. I love the idea of also getting to give disad using the SD's reaction. Of course the added DPS and reaction both rely on the Steel Defender getting into melee, and there are already 2 melee, making me think that the battlesmith's numbers will drop a bunch.
For those that have tried one or the other, any comments from experience? Did I forget something?
I ran the numbers as well for level 5, and I got 17.15 for artillerist, and 18 for battlesmith, assuming no magic items for either. Extra Attack is a huge boost at level 5, so this makes sense. Battlesmith will out damage the Artillerist at these levels for sustained single target DPS, but it's not by a much.
The place that artillerist really shows value is when multiple enemies are present. Area of effect spells/cantrips/turrets really start to total damage and effectiveness of the subclass. I think it's worth looking at the artillerist spell list and deciding if that's the role you want to fill. If not, then battlesmith is a solid choice.
I think you're right, the battlesmith is pretty decent at those early levels, starting at level 3 you're essentially a fighter with the ability to make extra attacks through your Steel Defender, not to mention your high ac with scale armor and potentially a shield, paired with the ability to give enemies disadvantage (on one attack mind, from the way I understand it the steel defender does not apply disadvantage to multiple attacks).
I am currently playing a level 4 battlesmith, but I have played the battlesmith in plenty of oneshots to wrap my head around it. I don't have that much experience with artillerists, but from comparing the two the artillerist will probably overtake the battlesmith in damage at later levels? While the battlesmith gets access to arcane jolt, and some smites, taking a look at both the artillerist will probably deal more consistent damage, and the artillerist also isn't limited to melee.
To sum it up while a battlesmith might be stronger at early levels, by looking at their features I think the artillerist might deal more consistent damage at later levels, while the battlesmith might have more bursts of damage.
It's always worth considering the fact that a ranged offensive character will more consistently deal damage as they will waste fewer actions having to move into position. They won't be stymied by opponents who cannot be engaged in melee due to things like flying or issues with terrain. The lower "dpr" is often more than mitigated by rarely having rounds where there is no attack the character can make. For example, in the 3-8 level range you mention above, if roughly one out of every six rounds there is a situation where the ranged character can attack while the melee character cannot (a not unlikely occurrence), the "dpr" becomes about identical.
Background: I am playing in a new group and I've never played artificer before (or been in a group with one). The rest group make up is 2 melee tanks (1 ftr, 1 pally), a life cleric, a bard (with inspiring leader), and a slot that sometimes will be a rogue and other times a warlock. Seeing as temps are covered (inspiring leader), healing is covered (life cleric and a few back-ups), I suspect my combat role to mostly be a blaster.
Conundrum: What's puzzling me is I would assume that Artillerist is the right path for the job, but when I do some quick DPR (sure its only one measuremrent) math in the low tier (did some quick calcs 3-8th level) I am a tad surprised to see that on average Artillerist (Firebolt + Cannon) sits a little behind a BattleSmith (d10 W + Steel Defender). At 3rd level, 18 stat and 15 target ac I get 9.7 for Art and 11.225 BS, and at 5th level with same stats 16.7 Art vs 18.925 BS. I love the idea of also getting to give disad using the SD's reaction. Of course the added DPS and reaction both rely on the Steel Defender getting into melee, and there are already 2 melee, making me think that the battlesmith's numbers will drop a bunch.
For those that have tried one or the other, any comments from experience? Did I forget something?
The artillerist cannon's best mode is the temp hp mode, bar none. It completely puts inspiring leader to shame over time. You can do some DPR work (you should be casting Create Bonfire, not Firebolt, as an Artillerist), sure, but I'm sure you noticed your L5 ability doesn't work on the cannon, yeah? Not even a little bit of a coincidence - you're not expected to be murdering anybody much with it. The real point of ballista mode is the 5 foot repel.
Another thing you can do is cast Invisibility on yourself and switch the cannon to flamethrower mode, which doesn't drop invisibility. Then you can run around the battlefield shooting the flamethrower as a bonus action and doing anything that isn't a spell or attack with your main action (i.e. caltrops, ball bearings, oil, handing out healing potions, whatever).
The artillerist cannon's best mode is the temp hp mode, bar none. It completely puts inspiring leader to shame over time. You can do some DPR work (you should be casting Create Bonfire, not Firebolt, as an Artillerist), sure, but I'm sure you noticed your L5 ability doesn't work on the cannon, yeah? Not even a little bit of a coincidence - you're not expected to be murdering anybody much with it. The real point of ballista mode is the 5 foot repel.
I agree that the artillerist temps are a good upgrade over inspiring leader, I just had it in my head, if another player has it, maybe don't spend my focus there. I guess going that route I could have both the Protector and the Homunculus Servant out and get a small portion of the dpr lost back on the rounds I don't give out temps.
I do wonder why you say create bonfire? I get that the idea is if an enemy can't leave a space then they will take more damage the next round. But the if ballista goes after you, and then moves them, unless it happens to be the one spot the enemy wants, I've downgraded die size, range, arcane focus infusion bonus and chance to crit. As well there may be a few concentration spells worth picking up I am now causing myself complications with. I do understand I am going against ref instead of AC and not having to deal with disadvantage if caught in melee.
The artillerist cannon's best mode is the temp hp mode, bar none. It completely puts inspiring leader to shame over time. You can do some DPR work (you should be casting Create Bonfire, not Firebolt, as an Artillerist), sure, but I'm sure you noticed your L5 ability doesn't work on the cannon, yeah? Not even a little bit of a coincidence - you're not expected to be murdering anybody much with it. The real point of ballista mode is the 5 foot repel.
I agree that the artillerist temps are a good upgrade over inspiring leader, I just had it in my head, if another player has it, maybe don't spend my focus there. I guess going that route I could have both the Protector and the Homunculus Servant out and get a small portion of the dpr lost back on the rounds I don't give out temps.
I do wonder why you say create bonfire? I get that the idea is if an enemy can't leave a space then they will take more damage the next round. But the if ballista goes after you, and then moves them, unless it happens to be the one spot the enemy wants, I've downgraded die size, range, arcane focus infusion bonus and chance to crit. As well there may be a few concentration spells worth picking up I am now causing myself complications with. I do understand I am going against ref instead of AC and not having to deal with disadvantage if caught in melee.
The Artillerist damage bonus applies to every target of an AOE, so 1 target of Firebolt gets hit with 1d8 extra damage, but Create Bonfire can hit up to 4 targets, and all of them will take the extra 1d8. Artificers don't get many AOEs, and Bonfire is on the short list.
The Artillerist damage bonus applies to every target of an AOE, so 1 target of Firebolt gets hit with 1d8 extra damage, but Create Bonfire can hit up to 4 targets, and all of them will take the extra 1d8. Artificers don't get many AOEs, and Bonfire is on the short list.
Ah, your GM is cool with placing it in-between squares, my GM, not so much. Sure its RAW, but he doesn't believe its RAI.
The Artillerist damage bonus applies to every target of an AOE, so 1 target of Firebolt gets hit with 1d8 extra damage, but Create Bonfire can hit up to 4 targets, and all of them will take the extra 1d8. Artificers don't get many AOEs, and Bonfire is on the short list.
Ah, your GM is cool with placing it in-between squares, my GM, not so much. Sure its RAW, but he doesn't believe its RAI.
How do you get any more RAI than a JC tweet? The grid itself is an optional rule to begin with. Create Bonfire is a 5 foot wide AOE, and people can be 5 feet apart.
By the strictest reading, if you only count PHB and DMG, it's RAI but not actually RAW. (RAW doesn't actually say what happens when a non-circular effect only partially overlaps a square...and the implication is that you'd need 50% coverage for the square to count, which suggests a 5-foot cube could hit only 2 at best.)
Xanathar's includes the "templates" option for AOEs, in which it is RAW. I think (if you metaphorically squint) templates can make a 5-foot cube hit 5 things.
The 50% coverage rule only applies to circular areas (which I interpret as circles, spheres, and cylinders) and only when playing on a grid using the DMG's rules. Otherwise you do precisely as the spell says: if the creature is in the area, it suffers its effects. It really doesn't matter how much the overlap is. A Gargantuan creature still takes full damage when you Fireball a 5'x5' corner of its 20' x 20' (or larger) space. That's at most 1/16th of its space.
The 50% coverage rule only applies to circular areas (which I interpret as circles, spheres, and cylinders) and only when playing on a grid using the DMG's rules. Otherwise you do precisely as the spell says: if the creature is in the area, it suffers its effects. It really doesn't matter how much the overlap is. A Gargantuan creature still takes full damage when you Fireball a 5'x5' corner of its 20' x 20' (or larger) space. That's at most 1/16th of its space.
Exactly this. Spells are not written assuming a grid; they do what they say they do.
Brilliant! I was curious about this as well. I was thinking most people would play with snap, but I realized I'm going to be biased based on my play experience.
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Background: I am playing in a new group and I've never played artificer before (or been in a group with one). The rest group make up is 2 melee tanks (1 ftr, 1 pally), a life cleric, a bard (with inspiring leader), and a slot that sometimes will be a rogue and other times a warlock. Seeing as temps are covered (inspiring leader), healing is covered (life cleric and a few back-ups), I suspect my combat role to mostly be a blaster.
Conundrum: What's puzzling me is I would assume that Artillerist is the right path for the job, but when I do some quick DPR (sure its only one measuremrent) math in the low tier (did some quick calcs 3-8th level) I am a tad surprised to see that on average Artillerist (Firebolt + Cannon) sits a little behind a BattleSmith (d10 W + Steel Defender). At 3rd level, 18 stat and 15 target ac I get 9.7 for Art and 11.225 BS, and at 5th level with same stats 16.7 Art vs 18.925 BS. I love the idea of also getting to give disad using the SD's reaction. Of course the added DPS and reaction both rely on the Steel Defender getting into melee, and there are already 2 melee, making me think that the battlesmith's numbers will drop a bunch.
For those that have tried one or the other, any comments from experience? Did I forget something?
I ran the numbers as well for level 5, and I got 17.15 for artillerist, and 18 for battlesmith, assuming no magic items for either. Extra Attack is a huge boost at level 5, so this makes sense. Battlesmith will out damage the Artillerist at these levels for sustained single target DPS, but it's not by a much.
The place that artillerist really shows value is when multiple enemies are present. Area of effect spells/cantrips/turrets really start to total damage and effectiveness of the subclass. I think it's worth looking at the artillerist spell list and deciding if that's the role you want to fill. If not, then battlesmith is a solid choice.
I think you're right, the battlesmith is pretty decent at those early levels, starting at level 3 you're essentially a fighter with the ability to make extra attacks through your Steel Defender, not to mention your high ac with scale armor and potentially a shield, paired with the ability to give enemies disadvantage (on one attack mind, from the way I understand it the steel defender does not apply disadvantage to multiple attacks).
I am currently playing a level 4 battlesmith, but I have played the battlesmith in plenty of oneshots to wrap my head around it. I don't have that much experience with artillerists, but from comparing the two the artillerist will probably overtake the battlesmith in damage at later levels? While the battlesmith gets access to arcane jolt, and some smites, taking a look at both the artillerist will probably deal more consistent damage, and the artillerist also isn't limited to melee.
To sum it up while a battlesmith might be stronger at early levels, by looking at their features I think the artillerist might deal more consistent damage at later levels, while the battlesmith might have more bursts of damage.
It's always worth considering the fact that a ranged offensive character will more consistently deal damage as they will waste fewer actions having to move into position. They won't be stymied by opponents who cannot be engaged in melee due to things like flying or issues with terrain. The lower "dpr" is often more than mitigated by rarely having rounds where there is no attack the character can make. For example, in the 3-8 level range you mention above, if roughly one out of every six rounds there is a situation where the ranged character can attack while the melee character cannot (a not unlikely occurrence), the "dpr" becomes about identical.
The artillerist cannon's best mode is the temp hp mode, bar none. It completely puts inspiring leader to shame over time. You can do some DPR work (you should be casting Create Bonfire, not Firebolt, as an Artillerist), sure, but I'm sure you noticed your L5 ability doesn't work on the cannon, yeah? Not even a little bit of a coincidence - you're not expected to be murdering anybody much with it. The real point of ballista mode is the 5 foot repel.
Another thing you can do is cast Invisibility on yourself and switch the cannon to flamethrower mode, which doesn't drop invisibility. Then you can run around the battlefield shooting the flamethrower as a bonus action and doing anything that isn't a spell or attack with your main action (i.e. caltrops, ball bearings, oil, handing out healing potions, whatever).
I agree that the artillerist temps are a good upgrade over inspiring leader, I just had it in my head, if another player has it, maybe don't spend my focus there. I guess going that route I could have both the Protector and the Homunculus Servant out and get a small portion of the dpr lost back on the rounds I don't give out temps.
I do wonder why you say create bonfire? I get that the idea is if an enemy can't leave a space then they will take more damage the next round. But the if ballista goes after you, and then moves them, unless it happens to be the one spot the enemy wants, I've downgraded die size, range, arcane focus infusion bonus and chance to crit. As well there may be a few concentration spells worth picking up I am now causing myself complications with. I do understand I am going against ref instead of AC and not having to deal with disadvantage if caught in melee.
The Artillerist damage bonus applies to every target of an AOE, so 1 target of Firebolt gets hit with 1d8 extra damage, but Create Bonfire can hit up to 4 targets, and all of them will take the extra 1d8. Artificers don't get many AOEs, and Bonfire is on the short list.
Ah, your GM is cool with placing it in-between squares, my GM, not so much. Sure its RAW, but he doesn't believe its RAI.
How do you get any more RAI than a JC tweet? The grid itself is an optional rule to begin with. Create Bonfire is a 5 foot wide AOE, and people can be 5 feet apart.
By the strictest reading, if you only count PHB and DMG, it's RAI but not actually RAW. (RAW doesn't actually say what happens when a non-circular effect only partially overlaps a square...and the implication is that you'd need 50% coverage for the square to count, which suggests a 5-foot cube could hit only 2 at best.)
Xanathar's includes the "templates" option for AOEs, in which it is RAW. I think (if you metaphorically squint) templates can make a 5-foot cube hit 5 things.
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Exactly this. Spells are not written assuming a grid; they do what they say they do.
Because I was curious how others use snap, I moved it to a separate post. https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/nclaec/snap_to_grid_poll/
Brilliant! I was curious about this as well. I was thinking most people would play with snap, but I realized I'm going to be biased based on my play experience.