The Battle Smith and Steel Defender have damage output (average and/or calculating to-hit chance) that exceeds that of other martial classes (paladin, fighter, ranger, etc.) in a big way, right from level 3, using almost zero resources. Does anyone else have an issue with that? Whether it’s a heavy crossbow, longsword, greatsword, ranged, melee, the BS and SD are comfortably above the other martials in damage dealing with room to spare, lots of hit points, extra AoO, all their spell slots, and free healing after the fact for the SD. They are great at saving throws, skills, they can heal and have utility spells, all on top of out pacing other fighting classes.
Is this power creep? Selling books? Me reading wrong?
Can you share the numbers you're getting to? You're postulating that the damage is higher without any calculations etc.
I didn't really get the impression that the Battle Smith is so brutally above the martial classes given that they don't get a fighting style. lvl 3 and 4 the damage of the SD might make a big difference but I don't really see that lasting?
A Battlesmith gets the at-will damage of their Steel Defender, which amounts to a bonus attack over another martial of the same level.
They do not get any Burst Mode options for dealing additional damage beyond this until ninth level.
Most other martials get some method of going hambone in a turn or augmenting their per-hit damage, whether it be Action Surge, Divine Smite, Hunter's Mark/various Ranger features, or whatever else. A Battlesmith is solid, reliable damage, but the higher you climb in levels the more other characters' burst abilities offers them an edge. I say this as someone who is actively watching it happen - my own Battlesmith has both Defender and Homunculus, but half the time her BA has to go to something else and even when she can focus fire? The monk gets four attacks to my three, the palladalladingdong can Smite, the rogue's one sneak attack is worth my entire turn. Even the 14-DX crossbow fighter can Action Surge to produce a higher spike turn than my battlesmith. That's all fine, the artificer has a lot of other shit going for it, but one must acknowledge the reality of the situation. Reliable at-will damage is awesome, I prefer it to unreliable spikes of damage, but most martials have at-will damage almost as good as mine with options for high-output bursts as needed.
All to the good, really. After all, they don't get magic Glocks or multiple robotic companions.
Can you share the numbers you're getting to? You're postulating that the damage is higher without any calculations etc.
I didn't really get the impression that the Battle Smith is so brutally above the martial classes given that they don't get a fighting style. lvl 3 and 4 the damage of the SD might make a big difference but I don't really see that lasting?
Sure thing. At level 4 (DPR over 3 rounds)...
Battle Smith with heavy crossbow, battle ready ability, repeating shot, steel defender (making an attack every round and an AoO once every 3 rounds), and +4 ability modifier, the average would be 57.5, with a to-hit adjusted (prof. + maxed stat assumes 60%) amount of 36.08. No spell slots. No rest restore resources used. Free (other than time) healing for the steel defender after the encounter.
At level 6 the same setup would be 93 average and an adjusted to-hit of 58.95.
Hunter ranger with longbow, hunter's mark, and colossus slayer is 49.5 (average) and 34.65 (to-hit) at level 4, and 85.5 and 59.85 at level 6. Using a spell slot and concentration.
Battle Master Fighter with a longbow, action surge, and all maneuvers would be 52 and 36.4 at level 4, and 94 and 65.8 at level 6.
That is two of the subclasses with the highest damage output kind of doing the same role as the battle smith, each using a lot of resources, and having access to NONE of all of the other stuff the battle smith does.
I crunched the numbers about 59 different ways and in the end the BS falls right dab in the middle as far as DPR is concerned when compared to the other half casters. Paladin has slightly lower overall damage but can spike it to be almost double what the BM can manage. Depending on subclass the ranger ether has vastly better AOE potential or situational spikes in damage that can be much more beneficial than good average damage.
in exchange for sitting right in the middle the artificer's damage is extremely hard to prevent. With good AC, saves, mobility, and built-in magical weapons they will be constant and reliable.
***No idea how got those values but at lv 4 facing off against a 16 AC target that +4 intelligence BS with a Heavy crossbow is looking at just shy of 33 DPR over 3 rounds with an AOO once in that timeframe.
I don't suggest using the battle master as point of comparison because precision is notoriously hard to work with. It can be done but it gets increasing difficult. The sammy fighter might work better.
For the ranger why not use the beast master who also has a good source of bonus action attack early on?
-Edit for typos-
That's a helpful take on it. Thanks!
Level 4 would be heavy crossbow, repeating shot (+1 to hit and damage), +4 Int. modifier, steel defender attacking each round and factoring in one AoO. (((5.5 + 1 + 4) + (4.5 + 2))*3 + (4.5 + 2)). For 57.5 average damage.
Also, I should say I don't use the 10 AC / 16 AC thing like with D&D:O, I use the Treantmonk style of assuming a base 60% to-hit that scales with standard prof. + maxed ability modifier. So an artificer with a +1 magic weapon would have a 65% chance to hit.
I can see the logic in attempting to compare features rather than base stats, but it's still weird math.
Nevertheless. The only bonus the Battlesmith is getting is the 1d8+INT force punch from the Defender and the assumption of a +1 weapon, and the assumption of one AoO per three turns is very weird but also normalizes the math more. Though I'm not sure the other martials are also getting a free AoO, which may be where the discrepancy is coming from. Seems to be so, in the math - the equation he gave assumes the Defender gets a free AoO at some point. If so: why does the Defender get a free attack while nobody else does?
Everyone else does. PHB beast master gets it's levels 3-10 damage primarily from AoO. It should be calculated in. It's part of what makes that subclass and others like it tactical.
I understand the variables, AC ranges, maxed out stats and such can change, so let's just use average damage and assume everything hits? And I'll take away the AoO even though its an extra creature to make one that other classes and subclasses don't have so it should count for something.
Battle Master and Steel Defender at level 4 is 48 average damage over three rounds. Zero resources used. No spells. No abilities. Zero.
Hunter ranger is doing 49.5. And is using concentration, a spell slot, and bonus action. And zero AoO chance.
Paladin can do less or more, but to do more it's burning through spell slots.
Everyone else does. PHB beast master gets it's levels 3-10 damage primarily from AoO. It should be calculated in. It's part of what makes that subclass and others like it tactical.
I understand the variables, AC ranges, maxed out stats and such can change, so let's just use average damage and assume everything hits? And I'll take away the AoO even though its an extra creature to make one that other classes and subclasses don't have so it should count for something.
Battle Master and Steel Defender at level 4 is 48 average damage over three rounds. Zero resources used. No spells. No abilities. Zero.
Hunter ranger is doing 49.5. And is using concentration, a spell slot, and bonus action. And zero AoO chance.
Paladin can do less or more, but to do more it's burning through spell slots.
The ranger needs fewer bonus actions than the battle smith (which is what I assume you mean by battle master) does, and certainly has a perfectly normal ability to hurt things via AoO. Hunter's Mark works for AoOs.
A rogue with a heavy crossbow dealing sneak attack damage 1/round for 3 rounds is also at 49.5, and is only consuming bolts, like the battle smith. What's so special about 48?
I ask "why free AoO?" because attacks of opportunity are not even slightly reliable. It's a very table-by-table thing - some tables pop attacks of opportunity left and right, while other tables might see ten or more combats go by without a single creature electing to take an extra attack to reposition. In this case it's also assuming the Defender is not using Defensive Pounce, which is far more likely to come up regularly than is creatures voluntarily absorbing AoOs.
I’ll be honest, I assumed the steel defender is played like the PHB 5E, 4E, and 3.5 ranger/druid beast companion. The alternative use of their reaction would change that a lot for me. Thanks!
Ad far as AoO being reliable, no matter how much they come up at any given table, a class or subclass with a companion will have more opportunities than those that do not to make them. Making an AoO every 3 or 4 rounds is what puts the damage numbers for the PHB 5E beast master in line with the other ranger subclasses. I have found it comes up more frequently than one would expect when the creature is focused entirely on tactically dodging, positioning, and making those AoO.
Ok. You all are cool with the math. That’s good. I’ll keep working it out for myself.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a bonus action rapier attack that deals +PB instead of +modifier damage. It's definitely cool. And I can't deny that the defender increases Reaction economy, so there's merit in counting AoOs. I am saying that the math is pretty messy, because you have to make a lot of assumptions to get numbers to work with. For example, if the Smith is wielding a crossbow, suddenly it's nonobvious if the target is even close enough for the Defender to attack. We don't have great rules for figuring out how far away the Defender can hear its commands.
Because Defender damage scales with PB rather than attribute modifier, an example weird inflection point you'll have relative to Fighters is level 8, where PB is still only 3 but the Fighter has run out of ASIs to feed Str/Dex and is completely free to invest in stuff like Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter.
Also, I should say I don't use the 10 AC / 16 AC thing like with D&D:O, I use the Treantmonk style of assuming a base 60% to-hit that scales with standard prof. + maxed ability modifier. So an artificer with a +1 magic weapon would have a 65% chance to hit.
This is not how dnd math works, incidentally. If your attack stat is 16 at L1, 18 at L4, and 20 at L8, the only level at which you deviate from expected 65% accuracy against the "standard" AC for the CR you should be facing, per the DMG, is level 9, where you spike to 70%. I don't know where you got 60%.
This means a Defender always hits as accurately as a bonus action attack, and then its damage is weird, since it starts off at 1d8+2 (worse than a bonus action rapier attack, a lot better than making it happen with just two weapon fighting and shortswords, though) and then slowly climbs, reaching 1d8+6 (better than the 1d8+5 the dual wielder feat + two weapon fighting style delivers by L8 to a Fighter). Making reasoned conclusions about that requires assumptions about magic item income, as most Fighters are dependent on acquiring a magic weapon to keep up, and the Steel Defender isn't proficient in any weapons. It's a largely unanswered question if Steel Defenders have hands, even though this starts being important as soon as you get one, since you can command it to grapple.
Also, I should say I don't use the 10 AC / 16 AC thing like with D&D:O, I use the Treantmonk style of assuming a base 60% to-hit that scales with standard prof. + maxed ability modifier. So an artificer with a +1 magic weapon would have a 65% chance to hit.
This is not how dnd math works, incidentally. If your attack stat is 16 at L1, 18 at L4, and 20 at L8, the only level at which you deviate from expected 65% accuracy against the "standard" AC for the CR you should be facing, per the DMG, is level 9, where you spike to 70%. I don't know where you got 60%.
This means a Defender always hits as accurately as a bonus action attack, and then its damage is weird, since it starts off at 1d8+2 (worse than a bonus action rapier attack, a lot better than making it happen with just two weapon fighting and shortswords, though) and then slowly climbs, reaching 1d8+6 (better than the 1d8+5 the dual wielder feat + two weapon fighting style delivers by L8 to a Fighter). Making reasoned conclusions about that requires assumptions about magic item income, as most Fighters are dependent on acquiring a magic weapon to keep up, and the Steel Defender isn't proficient in any weapons. It's a largely unanswered question if Steel Defenders have hands, even though this starts being important as soon as you get one, since you can command it to grapple.
Can anyone help me work through this in my head?
The Battle Smith and Steel Defender have damage output (average and/or calculating to-hit chance) that exceeds that of other martial classes (paladin, fighter, ranger, etc.) in a big way, right from level 3, using almost zero resources. Does anyone else have an issue with that? Whether it’s a heavy crossbow, longsword, greatsword, ranged, melee, the BS and SD are comfortably above the other martials in damage dealing with room to spare, lots of hit points, extra AoO, all their spell slots, and free healing after the fact for the SD. They are great at saving throws, skills, they can heal and have utility spells, all on top of out pacing other fighting classes.
Is this power creep? Selling books? Me reading wrong?
What?!
Can you share the numbers you're getting to? You're postulating that the damage is higher without any calculations etc.
I didn't really get the impression that the Battle Smith is so brutally above the martial classes given that they don't get a fighting style. lvl 3 and 4 the damage of the SD might make a big difference but I don't really see that lasting?
A Battlesmith gets the at-will damage of their Steel Defender, which amounts to a bonus attack over another martial of the same level.
They do not get any Burst Mode options for dealing additional damage beyond this until ninth level.
Most other martials get some method of going hambone in a turn or augmenting their per-hit damage, whether it be Action Surge, Divine Smite, Hunter's Mark/various Ranger features, or whatever else. A Battlesmith is solid, reliable damage, but the higher you climb in levels the more other characters' burst abilities offers them an edge. I say this as someone who is actively watching it happen - my own Battlesmith has both Defender and Homunculus, but half the time her BA has to go to something else and even when she can focus fire? The monk gets four attacks to my three, the palladalladingdong can Smite, the rogue's one sneak attack is worth my entire turn. Even the 14-DX crossbow fighter can Action Surge to produce a higher spike turn than my battlesmith. That's all fine, the artificer has a lot of other shit going for it, but one must acknowledge the reality of the situation. Reliable at-will damage is awesome, I prefer it to unreliable spikes of damage, but most martials have at-will damage almost as good as mine with options for high-output bursts as needed.
All to the good, really. After all, they don't get magic Glocks or multiple robotic companions.
Please do not contact or message me.
Sure thing. At level 4 (DPR over 3 rounds)...
Battle Smith with heavy crossbow, battle ready ability, repeating shot, steel defender (making an attack every round and an AoO once every 3 rounds), and +4 ability modifier, the average would be 57.5, with a to-hit adjusted (prof. + maxed stat assumes 60%) amount of 36.08. No spell slots. No rest restore resources used. Free (other than time) healing for the steel defender after the encounter.
At level 6 the same setup would be 93 average and an adjusted to-hit of 58.95.
Hunter ranger with longbow, hunter's mark, and colossus slayer is 49.5 (average) and 34.65 (to-hit) at level 4, and 85.5 and 59.85 at level 6. Using a spell slot and concentration.
Battle Master Fighter with a longbow, action surge, and all maneuvers would be 52 and 36.4 at level 4, and 94 and 65.8 at level 6.
That is two of the subclasses with the highest damage output kind of doing the same role as the battle smith, each using a lot of resources, and having access to NONE of all of the other stuff the battle smith does.
That's a helpful take on it. Thanks!
Level 4 would be heavy crossbow, repeating shot (+1 to hit and damage), +4 Int. modifier, steel defender attacking each round and factoring in one AoO. (((5.5 + 1 + 4) + (4.5 + 2))*3 + (4.5 + 2)). For 57.5 average damage.
Also, I should say I don't use the 10 AC / 16 AC thing like with D&D:O, I use the Treantmonk style of assuming a base 60% to-hit that scales with standard prof. + maxed ability modifier. So an artificer with a +1 magic weapon would have a 65% chance to hit.
I can see the logic in attempting to compare features rather than base stats, but it's still weird math.
Nevertheless. The only bonus the Battlesmith is getting is the 1d8+INT force punch from the Defender and the assumption of a +1 weapon, and the assumption of one AoO per three turns is very weird but also normalizes the math more. Though I'm not sure the other martials are also getting a free AoO, which may be where the discrepancy is coming from. Seems to be so, in the math - the equation he gave assumes the Defender gets a free AoO at some point. If so: why does the Defender get a free attack while nobody else does?
Please do not contact or message me.
Everyone else does. PHB beast master gets it's levels 3-10 damage primarily from AoO. It should be calculated in. It's part of what makes that subclass and others like it tactical.
I understand the variables, AC ranges, maxed out stats and such can change, so let's just use average damage and assume everything hits? And I'll take away the AoO even though its an extra creature to make one that other classes and subclasses don't have so it should count for something.
Battle Master and Steel Defender at level 4 is 48 average damage over three rounds. Zero resources used. No spells. No abilities. Zero.
Hunter ranger is doing 49.5. And is using concentration, a spell slot, and bonus action. And zero AoO chance.
Paladin can do less or more, but to do more it's burning through spell slots.
I see your point. Tomato, tomato.
On an unrelated side note, I don’t care much for the Tasha’s beast master optional variant.
The ranger needs fewer bonus actions than the battle smith (which is what I assume you mean by battle master) does, and certainly has a perfectly normal ability to hurt things via AoO. Hunter's Mark works for AoOs.
A rogue with a heavy crossbow dealing sneak attack damage 1/round for 3 rounds is also at 49.5, and is only consuming bolts, like the battle smith. What's so special about 48?
Yes. Battle smith. Not battle master.
Ok. You all are cool with the math. That’s good. I’ll keep working it out for myself.
I ask "why free AoO?" because attacks of opportunity are not even slightly reliable. It's a very table-by-table thing - some tables pop attacks of opportunity left and right, while other tables might see ten or more combats go by without a single creature electing to take an extra attack to reposition. In this case it's also assuming the Defender is not using Defensive Pounce, which is far more likely to come up regularly than is creatures voluntarily absorbing AoOs.
Please do not contact or message me.
I’ll be honest, I assumed the steel defender is played like the PHB 5E, 4E, and 3.5 ranger/druid beast companion. The alternative use of their reaction would change that a lot for me. Thanks!
Ad far as AoO being reliable, no matter how much they come up at any given table, a class or subclass with a companion will have more opportunities than those that do not to make them. Making an AoO every 3 or 4 rounds is what puts the damage numbers for the PHB 5E beast master in line with the other ranger subclasses. I have found it comes up more frequently than one would expect when the creature is focused entirely on tactically dodging, positioning, and making those AoO.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a bonus action rapier attack that deals +PB instead of +modifier damage. It's definitely cool. And I can't deny that the defender increases Reaction economy, so there's merit in counting AoOs. I am saying that the math is pretty messy, because you have to make a lot of assumptions to get numbers to work with. For example, if the Smith is wielding a crossbow, suddenly it's nonobvious if the target is even close enough for the Defender to attack. We don't have great rules for figuring out how far away the Defender can hear its commands.
Because Defender damage scales with PB rather than attribute modifier, an example weird inflection point you'll have relative to Fighters is level 8, where PB is still only 3 but the Fighter has run out of ASIs to feed Str/Dex and is completely free to invest in stuff like Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter.
This is not how dnd math works, incidentally. If your attack stat is 16 at L1, 18 at L4, and 20 at L8, the only level at which you deviate from expected 65% accuracy against the "standard" AC for the CR you should be facing, per the DMG, is level 9, where you spike to 70%. I don't know where you got 60%.
This means a Defender always hits as accurately as a bonus action attack, and then its damage is weird, since it starts off at 1d8+2 (worse than a bonus action rapier attack, a lot better than making it happen with just two weapon fighting and shortswords, though) and then slowly climbs, reaching 1d8+6 (better than the 1d8+5 the dual wielder feat + two weapon fighting style delivers by L8 to a Fighter). Making reasoned conclusions about that requires assumptions about magic item income, as most Fighters are dependent on acquiring a magic weapon to keep up, and the Steel Defender isn't proficient in any weapons. It's a largely unanswered question if Steel Defenders have hands, even though this starts being important as soon as you get one, since you can command it to grapple.
I understand.
This...
https://youtu.be/zg0bAl1WPGQ
...is pretty much what I use when looking at damage. Nothing is perfect or exact. This is just one way to try and compare stuff.