Had a random idea pop in my head wanted to hear what others had to say about it.
Regarding Replicate Magic Item and creating armor: would it be too cheesy to allow the host armor to be made of something other than metal? For example, carving out a suit of plate from wood with woodcarver's tools or quilting together a breastplate with weaver's tools and then using them to create the infused item.
Or would you rule that because the descriptions specify metal, the idea is no good?
Smoldering Armor, Plate made out of wood is certainly an amusing idea, but the easier armor acquisition may make it unwelcome.
So you're trying to find a Loophole to get armor cheaper? As I read the rules infusing an item requires you to infuse a certain kind of object. If you want a smoldering armor you'd need - well armor. I would argue that a woolen jumper doesn't coult as armor for this purpose. That said there could be armor made out of other materials then metal, like bone or wood, but that wouldn't make them cheaper as per ther rules in most games.
So you're trying to find a Loophole to get armor cheaper? As I read the rules infusing an item requires you to infuse a certain kind of object. If you want a smoldering armor you'd need - well armor. I would argue that a woolen jumper doesn't coult as armor for this purpose. That said there could be armor made out of other materials then metal, like bone or wood, but that wouldn't make them cheaper as per ther rules in most games.
Cheaper by way of crafting, yes. In theory, wood (being the best example to use) is easier to find and easier to work with and would result in an easier time in crafting to use as a "base" for infusing purposes. Same could be said for weapons, honestly. Carve out a longsword and then get a moon-touched sword, longsword.
That said, I can certainly understand (and agree with) the idea of even though it "looks" different, that it should still be mechanically the same. For fairness and all that. I just thought that it was an interesting approach that I don't remember reading about before and wanted to discuss it.
Woven armor would be padded armor, at least normally. If it was made of giant spider silk or the like it might be different. A DM would need to decide what wooden armor would be equivalent to, or if it would get an AC penalty.
2nd Edition had rules for alternative materials for weapons and armor, like bone tipped or stone tipped spears or Mithral breastplates. I’m not aware of 5e having similar rules. Bone and stone weapons shattered on critical failures IIRC. Wooden weapons of some types, e.g. clubs, quarterstaffs, bows, etc. are already allowed.
I don’t see a reason that you can’t use either material for an Armorer’s Arcane Armor. As long as your DM allows wooden armor or wooden weapons in place of metal weapons more generally, you can infuse them. You can infuse bows and quarterstaffs, after all. If the wooden weapon had a penalty, presumably it would still apply, with the infusion on top.
Mechanically, it’s probably a bad idea most of the time. Unless you are going against a bunch of rust monsters or creatures with innate Heat Metal spells, you’ll be worse off. But it could look really cool. Although a weaver Armorer Artificer with spider silk padded armor for their Arcane Armor could be pretty cool.
If you fight a sahuagin raider with enough status that they have armor, that armor isn't going to be metal or leather - more likely coral or shell. It'd be a valid target for infusions, and not get into the tricky question of wood armor.
(Why yes, our group did play Ghosts of Saltmarsh recently...)
Honestly, I'm not sure how well wood armor would work in a practical sense... and a DM could rule that it makes you prone to catching on fire, or vulnerable to fire damage.
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Mechanically, it’s probably a bad idea most of the time. Unless you are going against a bunch of rust monsters or creatures with innate Heat Metal spells, you’ll be worse off. But it could look really cool. Although a weaver Armorer Artificer with spider silk padded armor for their Arcane Armor could be pretty cool.
This is what led me to the idea, initially. I am planning a character with natural armor and wanted wood that looked like armor but was mechanically not armor (comical knight imitation). Got me thinking "what if" with the reverse. I know getting plate armor that early is intentionally not easy, so that was the obvious example to use.
Honestly, I'm not sure how well wood armor would work in a practical sense... and a DM could rule that it makes you prone to catching on fire, or vulnerable to fire damage.
I don't disagree with that as it concerns mundane wood as armor, but how about "magic" armor made through the infusion process? Same opinion?
And back to the main point, would using this method to circumvent the pseudo-level restriction for plate be technically viable? With the usual 'DM has final say' clause, of course.
My group is extremely permissive so that is not an issue on my part, but perhaps may be used elsewhere. I know those particular infusions get brought up a lot, so I thought it was worth discussing.
If it’s armor, you can infuse it. But the Enhanced Defense infusion only makes the armor +1 better. If your Wood Breastplate is the equivalent of a Breastplate -2 with fire vulnerability, you are still left with the equivalent of a Breastplate-1 with fire vulnerability. It doesn’t make your a wooden armor into a Breastplate +1. So you could make wooden armor (assuming your DM permits it), but it probably won’t have the mechanical properties of an equivalent steel armor regardless of your infusions.
Keep in mind that Wooden armor does exist. Think of something more like Samurai Armor than European Plate... not really made out of carving a single piece of wood into a full breast plate and more building a plate out of multiple reinforced pieces.
That said, the creation of most armor assumes Smithing rather than Wood Carving. But I think the combination of Wood Carving and Weaver's Tools is more than enough to produce proper armor. If I were DM'ing and a player wanted to do that, I would allow it, but it would require more expensive wood than normal and would ultimately cost the same in materials as building the same armor out of metal would have.
Would a nonmetal armor be enhancable with an infusion? Yes would it be worth doing? Probably not. That said there are some potentially interesting possibilities coming out of real world materials. silk - regular silk shirts were often worn under armour because of an interesting property - like modern Kevlar cloth the silk stretches and spreads the impact energy out over large areas. It also is tough enough to to be hard to slice through without exceptionally sharp blades so arrows often did less damage and were easier to extract as the silk rendered the barbs ineffective. Building an armour out of layers of woven silk might actually prove to be much live modern woven Kevlar body armour - proof against most missile weapons, and resistant to impact weapons and piercing weapons. Lignum Vitae (Brazilian ironwood) so tough and dense it shattered cheap iron axes when first discovered. Also dense enough in some cases to sink in water. It could be chopped by good steel axes and worked with rasps, chisels etc slowly. Even at its densest it is about 7 times lighter than steel.so even if you made the pieces of the armor 2-4 times thicker than steel it would be lighter ( but bulkier). It would still be more flammable than steel but at the same time might insulate you more from the initial blast as metals are much better conductors of heat. Marine materials ( coral, shell, chitin, etc) - of these chitin is by far the best. Coral and shell are both soft and brittle making them essentially useless as armour (except as fantasy materials). Chitin is tough and flexible allowing it to take blows and slices and bounce back into shape afterwards. It is weak against piercing attacks (think of the protrusions on crab claws etc as points piercing the target’s armor in addition to the viselike squeezing acting to crush the shells/exoskeleton armor of their targets. This is why steel/metal weapons would be so praised by undersea creatures as they are far superior to the available marine materials.
If it’s armor, you can infuse it. But the Enhanced Defense infusion only makes the armor +1 better. If your Wood Breastplate is the equivalent of a Breastplate -2 with fire vulnerability, you are still left with the equivalent of a Breastplate-1 with fire vulnerability. It doesn’t make your a wooden armor into a Breastplate +1. So you could make wooden armor (assuming your DM permits it), but it probably won’t have the mechanical properties of an equivalent steel armor regardless of your infusions.
Right. And my DM said something similar when posed the hypothetical situation. They opted for a "durability meter" route. I don't disagree with this, but my favorite race/class to play is Reborn/Armorer precisely so that I don't have to track ANYTHING, so it will continue to be nothing but a hypothetical situation on my part.
Keep in mind that Wooden armor does exist. Think of something more like Samurai Armor than European Plate... not really made out of carving a single piece of wood into a full breast plate and more building a plate out of multiple reinforced pieces.
That said, the creation of most armor assumes Smithing rather than Wood Carving. But I think the combination of Wood Carving and Weaver's Tools is more than enough to produce proper armor. If I were DM'ing and a player wanted to do that, I would allow it, but it would require more expensive wood than normal and would ultimately cost the same in materials as building the same armor out of metal would have.
Right, but it was more about applying that real-world logic to a very specific context within the game where real-world logic does not always apply. That said, I absolutely agree with your ruling as well.
Would a nonmetal armor be enhancable with an infusion? Yes would it be worth doing? Probably not. That said there are some potentially interesting possibilities coming out of real world materials. silk - regular silk shirts were often worn under armour because of an interesting property - like modern Kevlar cloth the silk stretches and spreads the impact energy out over large areas. It also is tough enough to to be hard to slice through without exceptionally sharp blades so arrows often did less damage and were easier to extract as the silk rendered the barbs ineffective. Building an armour out of layers of woven silk might actually prove to be much live modern woven Kevlar body armour - proof against most missile weapons, and resistant to impact weapons and piercing weapons. Lignum Vitae (Brazilian ironwood) so tough and dense it shattered cheap iron axes when first discovered. Also dense enough in some cases to sink in water. It could be chopped by good steel axes and worked with rasps, chisels etc slowly. Even at its densest it is about 7 times lighter than steel.so even if you made the pieces of the armor 2-4 times thicker than steel it would be lighter ( but bulkier). It would still be more flammable than steel but at the same time might insulate you more from the initial blast as metals are much better conductors of heat. Marine materials ( coral, shell, chitin, etc) - of these chitin is by far the best. Coral and shell are both soft and brittle making them essentially useless as armour (except as fantasy materials). Chitin is tough and flexible allowing it to take blows and slices and bounce back into shape afterwards. It is weak against piercing attacks (think of the protrusions on crab claws etc as points piercing the target’s armor in addition to the viselike squeezing acting to crush the shells/exoskeleton armor of their targets. This is why steel/metal weapons would be so praised by undersea creatures as they are far superior to the available marine materials.
Very enlightening. Even as an owner of kevlar, I failed to make that connection. I very much like the idea of making a copy of the the Mithril Breastplate and adding in those properties for some flavor.
And the wood definitely gives off some "signature weapon" vibes.
Keep in mind that both sword steel and armor steel ( they are 2 very different types of steel) are some of the most remarkable materials in existence with their combinations of hardness, toughness, and flexibility. A wood sword, even of lignum vitae, would be useless against even bronzer armor and would be quickly chopped to pieces be a steel sword. The place, in DnD, where wood armor would fit best is with a Druid/artificer multiclass allowing the Druid to have nonmetallic armor.
only the spider silk shirt/Kevlar vest has a possible regular place in DnD - where it would be a rare item causing piercing weapons to do -1 damage enhancible (in theory at least) to a total of -4 for a +3silk shirt. (be a hell of a nasty surprise to come across an ancient dragon with a +3 silk”sleeve” over its body so only missiles doing rolls of 5/6 actually do damage)
Had a random idea pop in my head wanted to hear what others had to say about it.
Regarding Replicate Magic Item and creating armor: would it be too cheesy to allow the host armor to be made of something other than metal? For example, carving out a suit of plate from wood with woodcarver's tools or quilting together a breastplate with weaver's tools and then using them to create the infused item.
Or would you rule that because the descriptions specify metal, the idea is no good?
Smoldering Armor, Plate made out of wood is certainly an amusing idea, but the easier armor acquisition may make it unwelcome.
So you're trying to find a Loophole to get armor cheaper?
As I read the rules infusing an item requires you to infuse a certain kind of object. If you want a smoldering armor you'd need - well armor. I would argue that a woolen jumper doesn't coult as armor for this purpose. That said there could be armor made out of other materials then metal, like bone or wood, but that wouldn't make them cheaper as per ther rules in most games.
Cheaper by way of crafting, yes. In theory, wood (being the best example to use) is easier to find and easier to work with and would result in an easier time in crafting to use as a "base" for infusing purposes. Same could be said for weapons, honestly. Carve out a longsword and then get a moon-touched sword, longsword.
That said, I can certainly understand (and agree with) the idea of even though it "looks" different, that it should still be mechanically the same. For fairness and all that. I just thought that it was an interesting approach that I don't remember reading about before and wanted to discuss it.
Woven armor would be padded armor, at least normally. If it was made of giant spider silk or the like it might be different. A DM would need to decide what wooden armor would be equivalent to, or if it would get an AC penalty.
2nd Edition had rules for alternative materials for weapons and armor, like bone tipped or stone tipped spears or Mithral breastplates. I’m not aware of 5e having similar rules. Bone and stone weapons shattered on critical failures IIRC. Wooden weapons of some types, e.g. clubs, quarterstaffs, bows, etc. are already allowed.
I don’t see a reason that you can’t use either material for an Armorer’s Arcane Armor. As long as your DM allows wooden armor or wooden weapons in place of metal weapons more generally, you can infuse them. You can infuse bows and quarterstaffs, after all. If the wooden weapon had a penalty, presumably it would still apply, with the infusion on top.
Mechanically, it’s probably a bad idea most of the time. Unless you are going against a bunch of rust monsters or creatures with innate Heat Metal spells, you’ll be worse off. But it could look really cool. Although a weaver Armorer Artificer with spider silk padded armor for their Arcane Armor could be pretty cool.
If you fight a sahuagin raider with enough status that they have armor, that armor isn't going to be metal or leather - more likely coral or shell. It'd be a valid target for infusions, and not get into the tricky question of wood armor.
(Why yes, our group did play Ghosts of Saltmarsh recently...)
Honestly, I'm not sure how well wood armor would work in a practical sense... and a DM could rule that it makes you prone to catching on fire, or vulnerable to fire damage.
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
This is what led me to the idea, initially. I am planning a character with natural armor and wanted wood that looked like armor but was mechanically not armor (comical knight imitation). Got me thinking "what if" with the reverse. I know getting plate armor that early is intentionally not easy, so that was the obvious example to use.
I don't disagree with that as it concerns mundane wood as armor, but how about "magic" armor made through the infusion process? Same opinion?
And back to the main point, would using this method to circumvent the pseudo-level restriction for plate be technically viable? With the usual 'DM has final say' clause, of course.
My group is extremely permissive so that is not an issue on my part, but perhaps may be used elsewhere. I know those particular infusions get brought up a lot, so I thought it was worth discussing.
If it’s armor, you can infuse it. But the Enhanced Defense infusion only makes the armor +1 better. If your Wood Breastplate is the equivalent of a Breastplate -2 with fire vulnerability, you are still left with the equivalent of a Breastplate-1 with fire vulnerability. It doesn’t make your a wooden armor into a Breastplate +1. So you could make wooden armor (assuming your DM permits it), but it probably won’t have the mechanical properties of an equivalent steel armor regardless of your infusions.
Keep in mind that Wooden armor does exist. Think of something more like Samurai Armor than European Plate... not really made out of carving a single piece of wood into a full breast plate and more building a plate out of multiple reinforced pieces.
That said, the creation of most armor assumes Smithing rather than Wood Carving. But I think the combination of Wood Carving and Weaver's Tools is more than enough to produce proper armor. If I were DM'ing and a player wanted to do that, I would allow it, but it would require more expensive wood than normal and would ultimately cost the same in materials as building the same armor out of metal would have.
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Would a nonmetal armor be enhancable with an infusion? Yes would it be worth doing? Probably not. That said there are some potentially interesting possibilities coming out of real world materials.
silk - regular silk shirts were often worn under armour because of an interesting property - like modern Kevlar cloth the silk stretches and spreads the impact energy out over large areas. It also is tough enough to to be hard to slice through without exceptionally sharp blades so arrows often did less damage and were easier to extract as the silk rendered the barbs ineffective. Building an armour out of layers of woven silk might actually prove to be much live modern woven Kevlar body armour - proof against most missile weapons, and resistant to impact weapons and piercing weapons.
Lignum Vitae (Brazilian ironwood) so tough and dense it shattered cheap iron axes when first discovered. Also dense enough in some cases to sink in water. It could be chopped by good steel axes and worked with rasps, chisels etc slowly. Even at its densest it is about 7 times lighter than steel.so even if you made the pieces of the armor 2-4 times thicker than steel it would be lighter ( but bulkier). It would still be more flammable than steel but at the same time might insulate you more from the initial blast as metals are much better conductors of heat.
Marine materials ( coral, shell, chitin, etc) - of these chitin is by far the best. Coral and shell are both soft and brittle making them essentially useless as armour (except as fantasy materials). Chitin is tough and flexible allowing it to take blows and slices and bounce back into shape afterwards. It is weak against piercing attacks (think of the protrusions on crab claws etc as points piercing the target’s armor in addition to the viselike squeezing acting to crush the shells/exoskeleton armor of their targets. This is why steel/metal weapons would be so praised by undersea creatures as they are far superior to the available marine materials.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Right. And my DM said something similar when posed the hypothetical situation. They opted for a "durability meter" route. I don't disagree with this, but my favorite race/class to play is Reborn/Armorer precisely so that I don't have to track ANYTHING, so it will continue to be nothing but a hypothetical situation on my part.
Right, but it was more about applying that real-world logic to a very specific context within the game where real-world logic does not always apply. That said, I absolutely agree with your ruling as well.
Very enlightening. Even as an owner of kevlar, I failed to make that connection. I very much like the idea of making a copy of the the Mithril Breastplate and adding in those properties for some flavor.
And the wood definitely gives off some "signature weapon" vibes.
Thank you all for the interesting discussion.
Keep in mind that both sword steel and armor steel ( they are 2 very different types of steel) are some of the most remarkable materials in existence with their combinations of hardness, toughness, and flexibility. A wood sword, even of lignum vitae, would be useless against even bronzer armor and would be quickly chopped to pieces be a steel sword. The place, in DnD, where wood armor would fit best is with a Druid/artificer multiclass allowing the Druid to have nonmetallic armor.
only the spider silk shirt/Kevlar vest has a possible regular place in DnD - where it would be a rare item causing piercing weapons to do -1 damage enhancible (in theory at least) to a total of -4 for a +3silk shirt.
(be a hell of a nasty surprise to come across an ancient dragon with a +3 silk”sleeve” over its body so only missiles doing rolls of 5/6 actually do damage)
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.