So I'm building a character for our ongoing campaign, and asked my DM for some ideas that fit his homebrew world. It's a pretty wacky, anachronistic, magitek nightmare world where there have been numerous magical apocalypses, Sorcerers don't exist, the only way sentient creatures can die is to be killed by a goblin during a blood moon or eclipse, and no one alive *knows* that fact. It's bizarre and totally the players fault, lol.
He suggested that Artificers are more common in this weird WW1 magitek level world, where they often work as chop-shop mechanics and low level goons for the Warlock motorcycle gangs, at least in the huge main city we've been playing in.
So I thought I'd base a character where the core kernel of the concept is based around the sentence "The armor replaces any missing limbs, functioning identically to a limb it replaces." of the Arcane Armor class feature. I imagine she was recruited young to be a mechanic for this motorcycle gang, at some point wanted to move up in ranks, went on a job that went bad ie. exploded, and she lost an arm and lower leg. Working with the artificer prosthetics, eventually she develops the arcane infiltrator armor to restore full functionality to her missing arm and foot. Eventually, she'll start building extra functional limbs entirely, and decides to use her new talents and magic to Robin Hood, robbing the corrupt aristocrats who run the city, to help the people of the lower classes she grew up with, but also to put a stop to the warlock gangs as she now sees them for the violent bullies they are. All while grappling with an increasing psychological dependency on the armor. Kind of a... Catwoman meets Tony Stark from Iron Man II meets PS4 Doc Ock kind of vibe.
ANYWAY, I'm trying to wrangle the class build and decide whether or not to dip Rogue, and for how many levels if so. She'll be level 11 when introduced, so delayed growth by dips isn't as much of a problem. I thought Arcane Trickster might complement the Infiltrator super well, but I'm not as interested in enchantments and that kind of thing for this character, and Sleep has fallen off by this point in terms of usability. And if I go Rogue 3, I'm missing out on the Armor Modifications feature and +2 Enhancements through infusions, as well as spell levels. Spell Storing item is fine though I'm okay with giving it up for a dip.
I'm also lost in the weeds for feats. Fey Touched is great but... I always take Fey Touched. Skill Expert (Stealth) could replace my need for Rogue, but I was kind of hoping to pair sneak attack with the lightning launcher. Keen Mind is in character.
Any suggestions?
Essentially Rogue 3/Armorer 8, Rogue 1/Armorer 10, and Rogue 8/Armorer 3 would *all* work with this character, just in different ways.
You sound like a budding revolutionary. So how about Mastermind or Scout instead of AT? Sneak attack plus ranged Help action could be pretty impressive. Or Scout’s reaction move away avoids the melee ranged attack problem. Either would have a place in a rebellion.
If you are just dropping into the story at the point where you are starting to reject the Warlock gangs, maybe you start Artificer 11 and take Rogue after that? It’s a change in your character’s life, so their class and build can reflect that. That gives you SSI, which is one of the best features of the core Artificer.
I would start Armorer 9/Rogue 2 to get cunning action off the bat. The level 9 Armorer ability is important because it lets you infuse both weapon and armor. You'll probably be using your spells to support your skulking and zapping so you can afford to focus on dex and make do with less spell slots.
Yeah, with the builds I've been playing around with, I use the Infiltrator armor on a breastplate. With a shield and 14 Dex that gives me 18 AC. 19 with the ehanced defense infusion, 20 with the infusion if I take 10 levels of Artificer.
I had also just had a thought after I posted this. Since the character is most likely a gnome or small, I could be a battle smith and ride around on my SD, which could be a stolen motorbike. I could take the *regular* prosthetic through replicate magic item amd still explore those same themes, just not as a core class feature.
I like the idea of having glowing hard light arms coming out of my arcane armor though.
Yeah, with the builds I've been playing around with, I use the Infiltrator armor on a breastplate. With a shield and 14 Dex that gives me 18 AC. 19 with the ehanced defense infusion, 20 with the infusion if I take 10 levels of Artificer.
I had also just had a thought after I posted this. Since the character is most likely a gnome or small, I could be a battle smith and ride around on my SD, which could be a stolen motorbike. I could take the *regular* prosthetic through replicate magic item amd still explore those same themes, just not as a core class feature.
I like the idea of having glowing hard light arms coming out of my arcane armor though.
Feels like a dead match for your idea aesthetically for you to make a Battle Smith and flavor it as you're just a brain in a jar at this point. Use all the hard light you want.
In terms of your original question, Armorer (with an infiltrator suit) is better as a Rogue dip - i.e. you'd generally make that as Arcane Trickster 8/Armorer 3. That might be why you're struggling so hard with this. Giving up Artificer 11 is a big deal - Spell Storing Item is easily one of the best Artificer abilities, period. On the Rogue's side, giving up Reliable Talent is significant, but not as significant, given you're gaining permanent advantage on the skill you're focusing on.
If you're going to Rogue dip, only Rogue 3 makes any sense - you need Cunning Action for the Rogue dip to really be worth your time, but that's just plain giving up too much, in my opinion. My strong recommendation is to not dip Rogue at all. Since you haven't picked a race yet either I'm going to pitch you a full build, with the following additional assumptions, since you didn't specify, and you can tweak it as you see fit:
All setting-specific content is banned: No Ravnica or Strixhaven backgrounds, no Dragonmarked races, no Wildemounte subclasses, etc.
MPMM is assumed to be a mandatory replacement for content previously found in VGM, MTF, PHB, or DMG.
Tasha's race and class buffs are in full effect.
Custom backgrounds are in full effect, so I can just assume 2 skills and 2 languages-or-tools, and leave it up to you to find a background feature you like. Since setting-specific backgrounds are out, this keeps things simple.
Race: You have really 4 good options:
Half-Elf (extra stat point and skill proficiencies mean you can be good at Stealth and Initiative and Dex saves more easily; resistance to charmed)
Goblin (you can kill people sometimes, and you can hide or disengage as a bonus action - you won't be able to guarantee in any way a battlefield with things you can hide behind, but you'll have the action economy to dynamically hide during a fight if there's something to hide behind, and disengage as a bonus action is a game-changer for booming blade)
Githzerai (resistance to psychic damage, charmed, and frightened, on top of real access to the shield spell for even more AC when you need it)
Custom Lineage (the extra feat is a gamechanger in terms of good builds at level 11) - This is the one I'm going to assume.
Size: May as well be Small, makes you easier to carry.
Variable Trait: Darkvision
Languages: Covered below.
Starting stats: Int 17 Con 16 Dex 15; ASIs are Fey Touched (Int, Silvery Barbs), Skill Expert (Int, Stealth, Stealth), and Dealer's Choice:
+1 Int/+1 Dex
Telekinetic (Int) and when you reach level 12 take Resilient Dexterity
Final stats are Int 20 Con 16 Dex 15 or 16 depending on what you selected.
Languages: Common, Sylvan, Primordial, Draconic
Class: Artificer 11
Remember, you can use short rests to change armor types, letting you wear Infiltrator armor but start the day with 11 THP on you. Likewise, while you can only move your infusions on a long rest, you can move Arcane Armor as an action, so you can wear Plate into battle with battle-infusions on it but easily swap to an Infiltrator breastplate for jobs if that's how the campaign ends up encouraging you.
Infusions (you have 4 attunement slots, attuned items are marked with an *)
Inactive
Spellwrought Tattoo of Find Familiar (you should have a familiar when you enter the campaign, almost certainly your default bearer of your SSI)
Dealer's Choice: Pot of Awakening (you should have awakened shrub assistants) or Alchemy Jug (you should have pockets full of acid and money)
Active, must be on boots, armor, helmet, or weapon
Enhanced Defense
Winged Boots*
Active
Cloak of Protection* (Infiltrator armor is like Cloak of Elvenkind but worse, so you should wear a cloak)
Repulsion Shield*
Bag of Holding
Bag of Holding or Helm of Telepathy* or Ring of Mind Shielding*
I love the idea of the “brain in a jar” in mech armor that Quindraco suggested. It’s perfect for custom lineage for an Armorer. Because you are just a brain in a jar without your suit, and what needs custom lineage more than that?
Incidentally, there’s a whole line of philosophy about the “brain in a vat” that it would be fun for your character to work through during play. For a summary: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_in_a_vat. What could be more meta than an imaginary character wondering if anything is real?
They keep living. No matter how much their body degrades or is damaged. It's pretty horrific.
Wow, that is terrifying! :D
I'd rather have the Rogue skills than the CON save. I don't take many concentration spells anyway.
You only lose one skill and you'll have guidance and Flash of Genius to cover for that. Not taking any concentration spells seems like a waste.
It's not the amount of skills, it's that Rogue skills include Acrobatics, Athletics, Investigation, & Stealth. I can grab all four of those right off the bat with my class, and worry about anything else that might be supplemental with my race or subclass.
Not a huge fan of concentration spells for this very reason, they lock you into "you HAVE to take CON saves why aren't you". I'd rather just take Jump, Longstrider, and Feather Fall and not worry about it.
Yeah, with the builds I've been playing around with, I use the Infiltrator armor on a breastplate. With a shield and 14 Dex that gives me 18 AC. 19 with the ehanced defense infusion, 20 with the infusion if I take 10 levels of Artificer.
I had also just had a thought after I posted this. Since the character is most likely a gnome or small, I could be a battle smith and ride around on my SD, which could be a stolen motorbike. I could take the *regular* prosthetic through replicate magic item amd still explore those same themes, just not as a core class feature.
I like the idea of having glowing hard light arms coming out of my arcane armor though.
Feels like a dead match for your idea aesthetically for you to make a Battle Smith and flavor it as you're just a brain in a jar at this point. Use all the hard light you want.
In terms of your original question, Armorer (with an infiltrator suit) is better as a Rogue dip - i.e. you'd generally make that as Arcane Trickster 8/Armorer 3. That might be why you're struggling so hard with this. Giving up Artificer 11 is a big deal - Spell Storing Item is easily one of the best Artificer abilities, period. On the Rogue's side, giving up Reliable Talent is significant, but not as significant, given you're gaining permanent advantage on the skill you're focusing on.
If you're going to Rogue dip, only Rogue 3 makes any sense - you need Cunning Action for the Rogue dip to really be worth your time, but that's just plain giving up too much, in my opinion. My strong recommendation is to not dip Rogue at all. Since you haven't picked a race yet either I'm going to pitch you a full build, with the following additional assumptions, since you didn't specify, and you can tweak it as you see fit:
All setting-specific content is banned: No Ravnica or Strixhaven backgrounds, no Dragonmarked races, no Wildemounte subclasses, etc.
MPMM is assumed to be a mandatory replacement for content previously found in VGM, MTF, PHB, or DMG.
Tasha's race and class buffs are in full effect.
Custom backgrounds are in full effect, so I can just assume 2 skills and 2 languages-or-tools, and leave it up to you to find a background feature you like. Since setting-specific backgrounds are out, this keeps things simple.
Race: You have really 4 good options:
Half-Elf (extra stat point and skill proficiencies mean you can be good at Stealth and Initiative and Dex saves more easily; resistance to charmed)
Goblin (you can kill people sometimes, and you can hide or disengage as a bonus action - you won't be able to guarantee in any way a battlefield with things you can hide behind, but you'll have the action economy to dynamically hide during a fight if there's something to hide behind, and disengage as a bonus action is a game-changer for booming blade)
Githzerai (resistance to psychic da
mage, charmed, and frightened, on top of real access to the shield spell for even more AC when you need it)
Custom Lineage (the extra feat is a gamechanger in terms of good builds at level 11) - This is the one I'm going to assume.
Size: May as well be Small, makes you easier to carry.
Variable Trait: Darkvision
Languages: Covered below.
Starting stats: Int 17 Con 16 Dex 15; ASIs are Fey Touched (Int, Silvery Barbs), Skill Expert (Int, Stealth, Stealth), and Dealer's Choice:
+1 Int/+1 Dex
Telekinetic (Int) and when you reach level 12 take Resilient Dexterity
Final stats are Int 20 Con 16 Dex 15 or 16 depending on what you selected.
Languages: Common, Sylvan, Primordial, Draconic
Class: Artificer 11
Remember, you can use short rests to change armor types, letting you wear Infiltrator armor but start the day with 11 THP on you. Likewise, while you can only move your infusions on a long rest, you can move Arcane Armor as an action, so you can wear Plate into battle with battle-infusions on it but easily swap to an Infiltrator breastplate for jobs if that's how the campaign ends up encouraging you.
Infusions (you have 4 attunement slots, attuned items are marked with an *)
Inactive
Spellwrought Tattoo of Find Familiar (you should have a familiar when you enter the campaign, almost certainly your default bearer of your SSI)
Dealer's Choice: Pot of Awakening (you should have awakened shrub assistants) or Alchemy Jug (you should have pockets full of acid and money)
Active, must be on boots, armor, helmet, or weapon
Enhanced Defense
Winged Boots*
Active
Cloak of Protection* (Infiltrator armor is like Cloak of Elvenkind but worse, so you should wear a cloak)
Repulsion Shield*
Bag of Holding
Bag of Holding or Helm of Telepathy* or Ring of Mind Shielding*
Spell Storing Item never really appealed to me. I mean yeah it's super useful but I can't think of any spells I'd need or want 10 charges of per day.
In my current build I took Bane with Fey Touched, I thought it might pair nicely with insightful fighting.
After level 9 you can definitely wear winged boots with arcane armor. It’s a DM call whether that uses up your armor infusion slot before that, due to unclear wording for Armorer. I think most would let you do so, just as you can wear winged boots you found as loot. But check to make sure.
After level 9 you can definitely wear winged boots with arcane armor. It’s a DM call whether that uses up your armor infusion slot before that, due to unclear wording for Armorer. I think most would let you do so, just as you can wear winged boots you found as loot. But check to make sure.
I'm not sure you *can* wear the winged boots as loot. The armor covers your entire body and it only specifies the helmet can be retracted. You'd be wearing boots over your boots.
Similarly, the winged boots from the Artificer infusion are a replicated magic item, not themselves an infusion like the enhanced defense or repulsive shield. They're an item you have to wear and attune to.
At level 9 Armorers Armor breaks down in to separate pieces for the purpose of infusion. And replicated magic items most certainly are infusions in the same way Enhanced Defense is; you're not actually creating a set of winged boots, you're temporarily infusing an already existing item with the powers of Winged Boots.
And as for being unable to wear winged boots as found loot, it creates two questions;
1) in terms of anything worn on the body, are Artificers suddenly unable to benefit from magic items other than those they infuse themselves?
2) If you are already wearing a set of armored gloves, boots and a helmet, does activating your Arcane Armor shunt those items off your body, appear over/under them (overriding or nullifying their effects), fuse with them temporarily to create a mismatched but seamless appearance or does it simply stop at the edge when it comes in to contact with them?
1) in terms of anything worn on the body, are Artificers suddenly unable to benefit from magic items other than those they infuse themselves?
2) If you are already wearing a set of armored gloves, boots and a helmet, does activating your Arcane Armor shunt those items off your body, appear over/under them (overriding or nullifying their effects), fuse with them temporarily to create a mismatched but seamless appearance or does it simply stop at the edge when it comes in to contact with them?
I think this is less an Artificer problem and more an Armorer problem. The subclass needs a rewrite badly.
I didn’t mean to start a rehash of a topic that has come up lots of times in this forum. SubtleMockery points to one of many threads about the issue. I think the consensus is that found magic items like boots could be worn with an Armorer’s armor from level 3 on, although SubtleMockery is right that RAW is not totally clear on this point. If you are infusing boots that are part of your Arcane Armor that would be the only infusion until level 9 on your armor. Then things get more messy from a RAW perspective at level 9, and those interested should look at threads on that topic.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So I'm building a character for our ongoing campaign, and asked my DM for some ideas that fit his homebrew world. It's a pretty wacky, anachronistic, magitek nightmare world where there have been numerous magical apocalypses, Sorcerers don't exist, the only way sentient creatures can die is to be killed by a goblin during a blood moon or eclipse, and no one alive *knows* that fact. It's bizarre and totally the players fault, lol.
He suggested that Artificers are more common in this weird WW1 magitek level world, where they often work as chop-shop mechanics and low level goons for the Warlock motorcycle gangs, at least in the huge main city we've been playing in.
So I thought I'd base a character where the core kernel of the concept is based around the sentence "The armor replaces any missing limbs, functioning identically to a limb it replaces." of the Arcane Armor class feature. I imagine she was recruited young to be a mechanic for this motorcycle gang, at some point wanted to move up in ranks, went on a job that went bad ie. exploded, and she lost an arm and lower leg. Working with the artificer prosthetics, eventually she develops the arcane infiltrator armor to restore full functionality to her missing arm and foot. Eventually, she'll start building extra functional limbs entirely, and decides to use her new talents and magic to Robin Hood, robbing the corrupt aristocrats who run the city, to help the people of the lower classes she grew up with, but also to put a stop to the warlock gangs as she now sees them for the violent bullies they are. All while grappling with an increasing psychological dependency on the armor. Kind of a... Catwoman meets Tony Stark from Iron Man II meets PS4 Doc Ock kind of vibe.
ANYWAY, I'm trying to wrangle the class build and decide whether or not to dip Rogue, and for how many levels if so. She'll be level 11 when introduced, so delayed growth by dips isn't as much of a problem. I thought Arcane Trickster might complement the Infiltrator super well, but I'm not as interested in enchantments and that kind of thing for this character, and Sleep has fallen off by this point in terms of usability. And if I go Rogue 3, I'm missing out on the Armor Modifications feature and +2 Enhancements through infusions, as well as spell levels. Spell Storing item is fine though I'm okay with giving it up for a dip.
I'm also lost in the weeds for feats. Fey Touched is great but... I always take Fey Touched. Skill Expert (Stealth) could replace my need for Rogue, but I was kind of hoping to pair sneak attack with the lightning launcher. Keen Mind is in character.
Any suggestions?
Essentially Rogue 3/Armorer 8, Rogue 1/Armorer 10, and Rogue 8/Armorer 3 would *all* work with this character, just in different ways.
You sound like a budding revolutionary. So how about Mastermind or Scout instead of AT? Sneak attack plus ranged Help action could be pretty impressive. Or Scout’s reaction move away avoids the melee ranged attack problem. Either would have a place in a rebellion.
If you are just dropping into the story at the point where you are starting to reject the Warlock gangs, maybe you start Artificer 11 and take Rogue after that? It’s a change in your character’s life, so their class and build can reflect that. That gives you SSI, which is one of the best features of the core Artificer.
I would start Armorer 9/Rogue 2 to get cunning action off the bat. The level 9 Armorer ability is important because it lets you infuse both weapon and armor. You'll probably be using your spells to support your skulking and zapping so you can afford to focus on dex and make do with less spell slots.
Yeah, with the builds I've been playing around with, I use the Infiltrator armor on a breastplate. With a shield and 14 Dex that gives me 18 AC. 19 with the ehanced defense infusion, 20 with the infusion if I take 10 levels of Artificer.
I had also just had a thought after I posted this. Since the character is most likely a gnome or small, I could be a battle smith and ride around on my SD, which could be a stolen motorbike. I could take the *regular* prosthetic through replicate magic item amd still explore those same themes, just not as a core class feature.
I like the idea of having glowing hard light arms coming out of my arcane armor though.
Halflings are better than gnomes and your first level should be in artificer for the Constitution save.
Besides that, I'm just trying to figure out how this world works. What happens to old people and those who fights in a war? :P
They keep living. No matter how much their body degrades or is damaged. It's pretty horrific.
You can thank my wife for that part of the lore. I just severed the material plane from being interfered with by other planes.
I'd rather have the Rogue skills than the CON save. I don't take many concentration spells anyway.
Oh.. I love the back ground, and with your question, gave me a few ideas.
If you are looking at rogue, what about a level in Phantom? Whispers of the Dead pairs nice with the Artificer
Wow, that is terrifying! :D
You only lose one skill and you'll have guidance and Flash of Genius to cover for that. Not taking any concentration spells seems like a waste.
Feels like a dead match for your idea aesthetically for you to make a Battle Smith and flavor it as you're just a brain in a jar at this point. Use all the hard light you want.
In terms of your original question, Armorer (with an infiltrator suit) is better as a Rogue dip - i.e. you'd generally make that as Arcane Trickster 8/Armorer 3. That might be why you're struggling so hard with this. Giving up Artificer 11 is a big deal - Spell Storing Item is easily one of the best Artificer abilities, period. On the Rogue's side, giving up Reliable Talent is significant, but not as significant, given you're gaining permanent advantage on the skill you're focusing on.
If you're going to Rogue dip, only Rogue 3 makes any sense - you need Cunning Action for the Rogue dip to really be worth your time, but that's just plain giving up too much, in my opinion. My strong recommendation is to not dip Rogue at all. Since you haven't picked a race yet either I'm going to pitch you a full build, with the following additional assumptions, since you didn't specify, and you can tweak it as you see fit:
I love the idea of the “brain in a jar” in mech armor that Quindraco suggested. It’s perfect for custom lineage for an Armorer. Because you are just a brain in a jar without your suit, and what needs custom lineage more than that?
Incidentally, there’s a whole line of philosophy about the “brain in a vat” that it would be fun for your character to work through during play. For a summary: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_in_a_vat. What could be more meta than an imaginary character wondering if anything is real?
It's not the amount of skills, it's that Rogue skills include Acrobatics, Athletics, Investigation, & Stealth. I can grab all four of those right off the bat with my class, and worry about anything else that might be supplemental with my race or subclass.
Not a huge fan of concentration spells for this very reason, they lock you into "you HAVE to take CON saves why aren't you". I'd rather just take Jump, Longstrider, and Feather Fall and not worry about it.
Spell Storing Item never really appealed to me. I mean yeah it's super useful but I can't think of any spells I'd need or want 10 charges of per day.
In my current build I took Bane with Fey Touched, I thought it might pair nicely with insightful fighting.
https://ddb.ac/characters/74152684/E6tTra
I'm not sure you can wear winged boots on top of the arcane armor.
After level 9 you can definitely wear winged boots with arcane armor. It’s a DM call whether that uses up your armor infusion slot before that, due to unclear wording for Armorer. I think most would let you do so, just as you can wear winged boots you found as loot. But check to make sure.
I'm not sure you *can* wear the winged boots as loot. The armor covers your entire body and it only specifies the helmet can be retracted. You'd be wearing boots over your boots.
Similarly, the winged boots from the Artificer infusion are a replicated magic item, not themselves an infusion like the enhanced defense or repulsive shield. They're an item you have to wear and attune to.
At level 9 Armorers Armor breaks down in to separate pieces for the purpose of infusion. And replicated magic items most certainly are infusions in the same way Enhanced Defense is; you're not actually creating a set of winged boots, you're temporarily infusing an already existing item with the powers of Winged Boots.
And as for being unable to wear winged boots as found loot, it creates two questions;
1) in terms of anything worn on the body, are Artificers suddenly unable to benefit from magic items other than those they infuse themselves?
2) If you are already wearing a set of armored gloves, boots and a helmet, does activating your Arcane Armor shunt those items off your body, appear over/under them (overriding or nullifying their effects), fuse with them temporarily to create a mismatched but seamless appearance or does it simply stop at the edge when it comes in to contact with them?
I think this is less an Artificer problem and more an Armorer problem. The subclass needs a rewrite badly.
I made a post about this in a different thread.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/artificer/94551-armorer-rules-question-armor-modifications?page=2#c30
I didn’t mean to start a rehash of a topic that has come up lots of times in this forum. SubtleMockery points to one of many threads about the issue. I think the consensus is that found magic items like boots could be worn with an Armorer’s armor from level 3 on, although SubtleMockery is right that RAW is not totally clear on this point. If you are infusing boots that are part of your Arcane Armor that would be the only infusion until level 9 on your armor. Then things get more messy from a RAW perspective at level 9, and those interested should look at threads on that topic.