I haven't really read through Archivist, but it just sounds like a Wizard. Battle Smith is just a Cleric with a Mechanical Servant from the looks of it. Artillerist I just hate the Turret. But for Alchemist, well I just loved the old one with the Alchemist's Satchel, and instead they added a Familiar with similar attacks.
I'm playing an Alchemist in the next Campaign I'm in, and I've been slowly making a Homebrew Class that fixes some problems with the 2, and soon to be 3 Editions of this Class.
Yeah ive just been using homebrew for my alchemist’s as well cause the old one was too limiting and the new one is too useless. Not completely useless mind you, but not that useful either
Yes, with the iron defender, its most useful ability is defensive pounce. With the homonculus, its most useful abilities are the alchemical solves. Companions are not always meant to be used to attack.
I didn't say they were. These are just here for utility, which is not what the Iron defender is advertised as, its advertised as an attacker/ defender. The Homonculus just didn’t do much and what it did do wasn't that useful so i dont think it could really justify taking a bonus action
The iron defender is a defender. Heavily a defender, with defensive pounce. They can attack fine, its 1d8+2 piercing damage scaling. Homonculus is similar, with a ranged attack to creatures. There is nothing forcing you to use them on your bonus action. If you do not want to, then do not.
@Crawling Chaos: I have no idea who that character image is, other than Guy With Smoky Bottle. Am I missing something, or are you hoping that throwing art at me of someone holding a smoky bottle who doesn't look like he just snorted all the coke is somehow an argument against the godawful Mad Scientist nonsense? Confused. Please clarify.
@Atrome: The issue is that a "homunculus infusion" does not get to have any special cool abilities or tie-ins to the character who created it. It cannot have alchemical attacks or abilities because it needs to be usable by every subclass. it cannot have Iron Defender stuff because it needs to be usable by every subclass. It cannot have destructive Artillerist abilities because it needs to be usable by every subclass. It doesn't get to cast spells for you, it doesn't get to have its own unique actions, it doesn't get squat. It gets to have, and do, nothing except probably just 1d6 damage with its face or whatever. It can't be "cool and customizable" because it needs to be bland and inoffensive enough to work for everybody. Which mostly means it gets to work for nobody because we're not allowed to hook subclasses into it anymore.
Which, hey. My games, both played and DM'd, are really homebrew heavy, so I suppose I'll live one way or another. I'd just like it noted that when the Alchemist releases and it has none of the cool utility, support capabilities, or interesting stuff available to it that the UA variation had, we all know where the point the blame.
@Crawling Chaos: I have no idea who that character image is, other than Guy With Smoky Bottle. Am I missing something, or are you hoping that throwing art at me of someone holding a smoky bottle who doesn't look like he just snorted all the coke is somehow an argument against the godawful Mad Scientist nonsense? Confused. Please clarify.
@Atrome: The issue is that a "homunculus infusion" does not get to have any special cool abilities or tie-ins to the character who created it. It cannot have alchemical attacks or abilities because it needs to be usable by every subclass. it cannot have Iron Defender stuff because it needs to be usable by every subclass. It cannot have destructive Artillerist abilities because it needs to be usable by every subclass. It doesn't get to cast spells for you, it doesn't get to have its own unique actions, it doesn't get squat. It gets to have, and do, nothing except probably just 1d6 damage with its face or whatever. It can't be "cool and customizable" because it needs to be bland and inoffensive enough to work for everybody. Which mostly means it gets to work for nobody because we're not allowed to hook subclasses into it anymore.
Which, hey. My games, both played and DM'd, are really homebrew heavy, so I suppose I'll live one way or another. I'd just like it noted that when the Alchemist releases and it has none of the cool utility, support capabilities, or interesting stuff available to it that the UA variation had, we all know where the point the blame.
Enjoy y'all's sacks of acid, folks.
Gosh you're pessimistic about this. Subclasses aren't the only way to have tie-ins to the character who created it. Being "cool and customizable" is another way of making something work for everybody by giving people options. Maybe it can't be 100% Alchemical Homunculus or 100% Artillerist turret or 100% Iron Defender or 100% Manifest Mind. But a 25% mix of features from each is certainly possible and definitely not something I'd consider useless.
Or maybe it can be 100% of 1 of those things. Maybe the Homunculus as an infusion literally gives you the option of 1 of 4 Homunculus statblocks to choose from and maybe they match pretty decently to what was previously designed except no longer tied to subclass. This seems unlikely to me but then again I have no idea why it'd be impossible.
So why assume the worst possible situation?
The alchemical homunculus was my favorite thing about the Alchemist subclass but I remain optimistic that a homunculus infusion will be worth having.
Heh. I'm pessimistic because I went through nearly ninety pages of the other artificer thread watching the vast majority of people spend those ninety pages (short the twenty or so at the front of "WHEN UP ON DDB?") complaining that everything about the 2019 UA sucked and that artificers, alchemists in particular, should never do anything except huck wacky scratch brews. Hatred for the homunculus was deep and unrelenting, and the idea that alchemy should take time to produce cool effects using tools, knowledge, and engineering rather than "HUEH HUEH LET'S GRAB WHATEVER COMES OUT OF THE SACK IN SIX SECONDS AND SEE WHAT IT DOES TO THE OTHER GUY" is apparently anathema.
I'm fully expecting the Homunculus Infusion to be a neutered waste of space, because it's only there for Eberron lore now. People have been resoundingly clear in their desires and expectations - everybody wants the soot-faced vial flinger. Wizards has shown in the past that they regularly cave to popular opinion despite the fact that Popular Opinion has never attended a single game design course in its entire life and has absolutely no idea how to design or build a satisfying piece of game content.
So. Acid sacks it is, and time for this ghost to get her homebrew-typin' fingers ready, because clearly if I want an artificer that's worth playing I'm going to have to make it myself. Sad, but not unexpected at this stage in the game.
You could choose. However, it was specifically described as "rapidly combining eclectic ingredients into unstable compounds", which lost their potency after the turn if you didn't use them. It makes my spleen itch, and it completely destroys any sense in even giving the bloody class proficiency in alchemist's tools or herbalism kits. Because clearly they're just slapdashing whatever they feel like together without a care in the world or an ounce of thought and I'm pretty much never going to be okay with it.
You have said that it was random multiple times. It isnt. Also, as what i said before, a revised alchemical satchel likely wouldnt have alchemists fire or acid in it
I always interpreted the Alchemist Satchel as being in a constant process of brewing potions or potion-like things. Basically a portable workshop in a bag with things set into motion by the Alchemist. Not so much a mere bag of reagents to create a thing on the spot. Everything pulled from it would thus be a finished meticulously (auto) crafted work of artifice. Mirrors how the Arcane Magazine was supposedly magically manufacturing ammunition every day. Also does more to justify it's three day 100gp crafting cost to replace it. A bag that's merely full of ingredients wouldn't take so long to craft.
I pictured the Alchemical Homunculus as a cute (only to the Artficer) "little" bug that had a very similar internal potion factory structure. Also I planned on integrating an Alchemy jug inside it so it could vomit honey and mayonnaise on people. But that's neither here nor there.
You could choose. However, it was specifically described as "rapidly combining eclectic ingredients into unstable compounds", which lost their potency after the turn if you didn't use them. It makes my spleen itch, and it completely destroys any sense in even giving the bloody class proficiency in alchemist's tools or herbalism kits. Because clearly they're just slapdashing whatever they feel like together without a care in the world or an ounce of thought and I'm pretty much never going to be okay with it.
Blrrrgh.
I don’t understand why you are so adverse to an alchemist, (which by definition is a profession that involves mixing things to make new more ‘powerful’ things), having potions. If you want a little gremlin that makes people almost fly for a bit a few times a day or what have you thats fine, but have you ever considered...... picking another class??
Anyway tho, im there with you in the heavy homebrew department so if there is something about it that i dislike ill probs just have it altered anyway so i guess we can just agree to disagree
Heh. I'm not at all averse to the alchemist being excellent at creating potions, elixirs, salves or pastes, incenses, powders, grenades - all those lovely things.
I am strongly averse to the alchemist being given a Magic Sack of Tomfoolery that says "here are the four or five things you know how to do. This is the entirety and the full extent of your alchemical knowledge, but hey - you can do it all in an action by stuffing your hands in the sack and shoveling reagents at your enemies!"
I want my alchemist to be someone who can spend one day in the lab creating anything off a list of dozens and dozens and dozens of things she knows how to make because she is an ALCHEMIST - a magical scientist, inventor, and engineer with a keen mind and a deep familiarity with the tools and materials of her craft. Not Hillbilly Jane with a sackful of chewin' tobacky she can mash up in six seconds to produce one out of a tiny, restrictive handful of vaguely chemistry-themed hogwash that usually consists of "I pour acid on the problem until it stops being a problem".
Oh well. Looks like I'll be rethinking my typical toolkit since Battlesmiths don't get any chemistry in their byline. Either that or Skilled comes in earlier than it used to in order to get me my alchemist's tools and herbalism kit back.
I guess really what i have been trying to get at this Entire Time and getting distracted from by all of the gentle arguing is that; there should be room in this class for your version of the alchemist AND mine. But there isn't and thats a MAJoR problem for the community as a whole
Heh. There is. it just requires a bunch of homebrew.
I argue these points mostly because A.) I'm bored at work and have the time to post, and B.) I'm continually depressed by Wizard's unswerving, unshakable commitment to the Lowest Common Denominator in 5e. I'd had some hope that this class, an expansion class built on a very Smart Guy archetype and designed for a more complex setting, would let them maybe, just this once, nudge a bit on their "We must oversimplify EVERYTHING, make it as FLAVORLESS AS POSSIBLE, for the sake of the noobs!" stance.
Nope. 5e. Everything has to be pared down to well past the minimum basics. I'm all for elegant game design but maaan...I liked the artificer when it had some crunch to it...
Mood about work. Overall i think 5e is a good system but honestly Artificer should be the most convoluted class that we have, cause thats the only way we can get everything we need to make an actual Artificer class. I like how simple it is AT TIMES and other times im just super frustrated but whatever i guess, we only have what? 8 more years of this edition??? 😭
Honestly, I want there to be an entire chapter in the upcoming book dedicated to nothing BUT the Artificer with different options for customizing their abilities. I already know that's not what we're going to get, but hey, one can dream...
i like how streamlined 5e is. Just because you don't have to read through 10 pages to understand what the main class features are does not make it bad. Artificer is already as crunchy as 5e classes are going to get. Play an older edition if you dont like it, but 5e has been the most popular and profitable edition of dungeons and dragons so far.
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Yeah ive just been using homebrew for my alchemist’s as well cause the old one was too limiting and the new one is too useless. Not completely useless mind you, but not that useful either
Yes, with the iron defender, its most useful ability is defensive pounce. With the homonculus, its most useful abilities are the alchemical solves. Companions are not always meant to be used to attack.
I didn't say they were. These are just here for utility, which is not what the Iron defender is advertised as, its advertised as an attacker/ defender. The Homonculus just didn’t do much and what it did do wasn't that useful so i dont think it could really justify taking a bonus action
The iron defender is a defender. Heavily a defender, with defensive pounce. They can attack fine, its 1d8+2 piercing damage scaling. Homonculus is similar, with a ranged attack to creatures. There is nothing forcing you to use them on your bonus action. If you do not want to, then do not.
@Crawling Chaos:
I have no idea who that character image is, other than Guy With Smoky Bottle. Am I missing something, or are you hoping that throwing art at me of someone holding a smoky bottle who doesn't look like he just snorted all the coke is somehow an argument against the godawful Mad Scientist nonsense? Confused. Please clarify.
@Atrome:
The issue is that a "homunculus infusion" does not get to have any special cool abilities or tie-ins to the character who created it. It cannot have alchemical attacks or abilities because it needs to be usable by every subclass. it cannot have Iron Defender stuff because it needs to be usable by every subclass. It cannot have destructive Artillerist abilities because it needs to be usable by every subclass. It doesn't get to cast spells for you, it doesn't get to have its own unique actions, it doesn't get squat. It gets to have, and do, nothing except probably just 1d6 damage with its face or whatever. It can't be "cool and customizable" because it needs to be bland and inoffensive enough to work for everybody. Which mostly means it gets to work for nobody because we're not allowed to hook subclasses into it anymore.
Which, hey. My games, both played and DM'd, are really homebrew heavy, so I suppose I'll live one way or another. I'd just like it noted that when the Alchemist releases and it has none of the cool utility, support capabilities, or interesting stuff available to it that the UA variation had, we all know where the point the blame.
Enjoy y'all's sacks of acid, folks.
Please do not contact or message me.
Gosh you're pessimistic about this. Subclasses aren't the only way to have tie-ins to the character who created it. Being "cool and customizable" is another way of making something work for everybody by giving people options. Maybe it can't be 100% Alchemical Homunculus or 100% Artillerist turret or 100% Iron Defender or 100% Manifest Mind. But a 25% mix of features from each is certainly possible and definitely not something I'd consider useless.
Or maybe it can be 100% of 1 of those things. Maybe the Homunculus as an infusion literally gives you the option of 1 of 4 Homunculus statblocks to choose from and maybe they match pretty decently to what was previously designed except no longer tied to subclass. This seems unlikely to me but then again I have no idea why it'd be impossible.
So why assume the worst possible situation?
The alchemical homunculus was my favorite thing about the Alchemist subclass but I remain optimistic that a homunculus infusion will be worth having.
Heh. I'm pessimistic because I went through nearly ninety pages of the other artificer thread watching the vast majority of people spend those ninety pages (short the twenty or so at the front of "WHEN UP ON DDB?") complaining that everything about the 2019 UA sucked and that artificers, alchemists in particular, should never do anything except huck wacky scratch brews. Hatred for the homunculus was deep and unrelenting, and the idea that alchemy should take time to produce cool effects using tools, knowledge, and engineering rather than "HUEH HUEH LET'S GRAB WHATEVER COMES OUT OF THE SACK IN SIX SECONDS AND SEE WHAT IT DOES TO THE OTHER GUY" is apparently anathema.
I'm fully expecting the Homunculus Infusion to be a neutered waste of space, because it's only there for Eberron lore now. People have been resoundingly clear in their desires and expectations - everybody wants the soot-faced vial flinger. Wizards has shown in the past that they regularly cave to popular opinion despite the fact that Popular Opinion has never attended a single game design course in its entire life and has absolutely no idea how to design or build a satisfying piece of game content.
So. Acid sacks it is, and time for this ghost to get her homebrew-typin' fingers ready, because clearly if I want an artificer that's worth playing I'm going to have to make it myself. Sad, but not unexpected at this stage in the game.
Please do not contact or message me.
You could choose. However, it was specifically described as "rapidly combining eclectic ingredients into unstable compounds", which lost their potency after the turn if you didn't use them. It makes my spleen itch, and it completely destroys any sense in even giving the bloody class proficiency in alchemist's tools or herbalism kits. Because clearly they're just slapdashing whatever they feel like together without a care in the world or an ounce of thought and I'm pretty much never going to be okay with it.
Blrrrgh.
Please do not contact or message me.
But how is that semi random?
I'm not sure why it matters?
Please do not contact or message me.
You have said that it was random multiple times. It isnt. Also, as what i said before, a revised alchemical satchel likely wouldnt have alchemists fire or acid in it
I always interpreted the Alchemist Satchel as being in a constant process of brewing potions or potion-like things. Basically a portable workshop in a bag with things set into motion by the Alchemist. Not so much a mere bag of reagents to create a thing on the spot. Everything pulled from it would thus be a finished meticulously (auto) crafted work of artifice. Mirrors how the Arcane Magazine was supposedly magically manufacturing ammunition every day. Also does more to justify it's three day 100gp crafting cost to replace it. A bag that's merely full of ingredients wouldn't take so long to craft.
I pictured the Alchemical Homunculus as a cute (only to the Artficer) "little" bug that had a very similar internal potion factory structure. Also I planned on integrating an Alchemy jug inside it so it could vomit honey and mayonnaise on people. But that's neither here nor there.
I don’t understand why you are so adverse to an alchemist, (which by definition is a profession that involves mixing things to make new more ‘powerful’ things), having potions. If you want a little gremlin that makes people almost fly for a bit a few times a day or what have you thats fine, but have you ever considered...... picking another class??
Anyway tho, im there with you in the heavy homebrew department so if there is something about it that i dislike ill probs just have it altered anyway so i guess we can just agree to disagree
Heh. I'm not at all averse to the alchemist being excellent at creating potions, elixirs, salves or pastes, incenses, powders, grenades - all those lovely things.
I am strongly averse to the alchemist being given a Magic Sack of Tomfoolery that says "here are the four or five things you know how to do. This is the entirety and the full extent of your alchemical knowledge, but hey - you can do it all in an action by stuffing your hands in the sack and shoveling reagents at your enemies!"
I want my alchemist to be someone who can spend one day in the lab creating anything off a list of dozens and dozens and dozens of things she knows how to make because she is an ALCHEMIST - a magical scientist, inventor, and engineer with a keen mind and a deep familiarity with the tools and materials of her craft. Not Hillbilly Jane with a sackful of chewin' tobacky she can mash up in six seconds to produce one out of a tiny, restrictive handful of vaguely chemistry-themed hogwash that usually consists of "I pour acid on the problem until it stops being a problem".
Oh well. Looks like I'll be rethinking my typical toolkit since Battlesmiths don't get any chemistry in their byline. Either that or Skilled comes in earlier than it used to in order to get me my alchemist's tools and herbalism kit back.
Please do not contact or message me.
I guess really what i have been trying to get at this Entire Time and getting distracted from by all of the gentle arguing is that; there should be room in this class for your version of the alchemist AND mine. But there isn't and thats a MAJoR problem for the community as a whole
Heh. There is. it just requires a bunch of homebrew.
I argue these points mostly because A.) I'm bored at work and have the time to post, and B.) I'm continually depressed by Wizard's unswerving, unshakable commitment to the Lowest Common Denominator in 5e. I'd had some hope that this class, an expansion class built on a very Smart Guy archetype and designed for a more complex setting, would let them maybe, just this once, nudge a bit on their "We must oversimplify EVERYTHING, make it as FLAVORLESS AS POSSIBLE, for the sake of the noobs!" stance.
Nope. 5e. Everything has to be pared down to well past the minimum basics. I'm all for elegant game design but maaan...I liked the artificer when it had some crunch to it...
Please do not contact or message me.
Mood about work. Overall i think 5e is a good system but honestly Artificer should be the most convoluted class that we have, cause thats the only way we can get everything we need to make an actual Artificer class. I like how simple it is AT TIMES and other times im just super frustrated but whatever i guess, we only have what? 8 more years of this edition??? 😭
Honestly, I want there to be an entire chapter in the upcoming book dedicated to nothing BUT the Artificer with different options for customizing their abilities. I already know that's not what we're going to get, but hey, one can dream...
Honestly it could be its entirely own supplement and i would pay big buck for it (as long as i like it)
i like how streamlined 5e is. Just because you don't have to read through 10 pages to understand what the main class features are does not make it bad. Artificer is already as crunchy as 5e classes are going to get. Play an older edition if you dont like it, but 5e has been the most popular and profitable edition of dungeons and dragons so far.