I keep hearing that nonsense, that the alchemist is supposed to be Za Poshunz Guy, but realistically now - what is a potion? A "potion" is nothing more than a drinkable spell. There is nothing, mechanically, that separates a magical potion effect from a magical spell effect save delivery method, and even then there's an argument to be made that delivery method isn't critical - a touch spell could easily be flavored as "here, suck down this shot of magic whiskey" and become a 'potion'.
The only thing - the only thing - that sets "POTIONS" apart from normal ordinary everyday spells is the idea that you can bank them. Make a potion, stuff it in a bucket, carry the bucket around, drink the potion when you need the spell. That is it. For many in-game magic potions, that is the only possible difference. The actual effects of a Potion of Invisibility and the spell Invisibility are indistinguishable. So. What does this mean, and what - as a game designer - are you looking to accomplish with "POTIONS"?
The only answer that suggests itself, at least to me, is that people who like "POTIONS", who are drawn to the Potion Guy version of the alchemist tropes, want to be the Clever Planner. They want to be the person who foresees the party's need and prepares exactly the right thing ahead of time. They want to be that guy who, upon receiving a mission to go clear out a nest of imps in a cavern in the hills, sits down and gets a bunch of Antitoxins and maybe a couple of potions of See Invisibility ready. Their fun comes from being able to anticipate a problem and prepare the solution before it comes up, cleverly making use of the expanded resources available at their home base to ease their party's way. People like to call this 'Being a Support player', but that's an incorrect identifier. What it's more about is a feeling of value from being able to outwit the game, counter its challenges before those challenges even materialize, and make maximal use of the non-mobile resources of the party's home town, camp, or keep even while traveling.
Normally I would say "that's fine", and to a degree it is. But, as I have noted so god damned many times to both Bunsen and many other people, carrying that playstyle to its extreme means creating a character that has no business being a member of the party. The Ultimate Potionmaker would be able to perfectly predict which potions the party would need for any adventure and supply exactly those potions to the party before they set out...meaning the Ultimate Potionmaker has already contributed as much as they possibly can to the adventure and has no need to accompany the heroes. They have already Done Their Job(C), and taking them with is nothing but a waste and a meaningless risk.
Experimental Elixir doesn't feel good to Ultimate Potionmakers because it's not any different than casting spells. You use a spell slot to make the effect you need when you need it. There's no element of cleverness, no element of foresight or planning. No need for special resources (other than the forty pounds of flasks), and no need to make an elixir to bank against future need. Arguably, there's no good way to do what Ultimate Potionmakers want done without effectively removing them from an adventuring party. One does not brew potions in the field; if you can quickfire a potion effect, it becomes no different from a regular spell and Ultimate Potionmakers lose interest.
Experimental Elixir doesn't feel good to anyone else because it ******* sucks.
So, Bunsen. How do you do it? How do you make a class that makes Ultimate Potionmakers trill in glee without also making it a class that never has any reason to leave town? How do you satisfy the requirements of being the Clever Planner for your group in a way that keeps the Planner in the game, instead of just being an unusually mouthy NPC between adventures? How do you make a potion-centric feature that isn't just spellcasting with maple syrup flavoring?
If you hate the artificer so much, hate the idea of being an adventurer instead of The Support Guy, then tell me - how do you do this correctly, if everything I've said is always wrong?
I kind of agree with Yumei on this one. Right now artificer kind of feels like a kind of bad support class. I'll still play it but I'll ask my DM if they're okay with keeping a few of the old things like arcane jolt giving the defender a magic attack classification and RCfrJ back. The buffs to the infusions is nice, but they're a little squishy to be front line fighters from my experience. And they don't really do much damage from the back either. So it's just kind of in the middle and not very good at being there.
I do not hate the artificer or the idea of being an adventurer, please do not attribute things I have not said to me. I would have it be a combination of things like arcane recovery for the wizards (some spell slots back on a short rest, so that you don't get screwed over at low levels due to limited spell slots), along with the ability to generate effects that are roughly around higher level spells with lower level spell slots (like 1st level for a potion that gave someone greater invisibility for 3 rounds, or something like alter self where you drink it and you get a magic natural weapon, that just happens to gel with the artificer playstyle really well because it is designed to, or a +20 speed potion that lasted an hour, or a super healing potion that gave you a lot of hp and temp hp) that cost a bonus action to activate. I would also, for damage, focus on cantrips, but design a cantrip specifically to function with the artificer that makes the most use out of the alchemists level 5. I would have the alchemist be someone who shot a super powered cantrip as their main damage source (like, 2d12+5 on a hit), and then could grant an ally next to them, or themselves, a useful buff as a bonus action, to power things up.
I don't mean poison spray by that cantrip either, I mean an attack roll based damage switching d12 that is artificer only. It frustrates me that the defender turret does a better job doing what I want the alchemist to be able to do, and the alchemist just gets some slightly more powerful 1st level spells that are really not worth casting as a half caster, especially after their level 5 feature makes casting cure wounds an actual viable action to play as a healer.
Home Brew: You know how to brew potions in your downtime. You know 3 alchemical formulae, and learn 1 additional one whenever you gain an artificer level. Your alchemical formulae are replications of spells, which you can choose from any classes spell list, provided that that spell does not deal damage, and the casting time of it is one action, one bonus action, or one reaction, and is a level of 2nd or under. When you finish a short or long rest, you can create a number of potions with a combined level equal to half your artificer level (rounded down) + your INT modifier. These potions lose their magic when you finish a short or long rest. At any point while a potion is magical, as a bonus action, a creature can drink it, and cast the spell that you used the formula for to create this potion, at its lowest level, targeting itself. If the spell requires a saving throw or modifier, it uses your spellcasting modifier and saving throw dc, but if it requires concentration, that creature that drank it must provide it.
Not even a little bit, but some people would houserule that they can do that anyways. Alchemist's fire is a hell of a drug.
@Bunsen: that's just the 3.5e Spell-Storing Item in liquid form. I'm starting to despise that feature, given how many people are thoroughly up its ass and consider the 3.5e SSI to be the only reason an artificer should exist at all. Yes, I get the whole "I wanna give my buddies who don't cast spells something cool to do with their concentration!" thing, but it's just not the way 5e works.
Can we please forget the 3.5e artificer, or at least realize that it's staying in its edition and this one is a new dealio?
Alchemist seems... workable in my opinion, and not that much different from the play-test material. It's features look to have been spread out over more levels, meaning the sub-class doesn't really come online until level 10.
But saying that; in a party with for example, a battle smith (like mine), I can definitely see a player feeling alchemist under preforms. But that's not a problem exclusive to the artificer class.
My players love high magic, post apocalyptic fantasyXsci-fi and are drooling for more artificer stuff to play with. I could see giving experimental elixir the temp hit point buff right off the bat at 3rd and giving the homunculus infusion for free at 9th instead. Maybe buff homunculus to calc hp like the cannons and defender.
The alchemist abilities besides experimental elixir are honestly fine. Like, yes, it doesn't have the high DPR of the other two, but it was not designed for that. One of the things I read, which I agree the most with, is "battle smith and artillerist get a boosted 2nd level spell at level 3, alchemist gets some randomized mildly improved 1st level spells at 3rd level". It is playable, I believe, but it might feel underwhelming until level 9, when you become a temp hp machine.
That was my take away also. Alchemist catches up to the boosted 2nd level spell party by 9th, when her elixirs become boosted 2nd level false lives.
I'd see the power spike gap as an issue mainly below level 10 in a party with another artificer. Otherwise everyone's probably too distracted by all the buffs and infusions you'll be throwing around to notice the difference.
It's a head scratcher as to why the alchemist has to wait so long while the other sub-classes don't. It's a hard pill to swallow but in the meantime a party at low to mid levels can get pretty far with 10mins non concentration fly speed if a DM hasn't designed encounters around it.
The version I made for experimental elixir was an attempt to fix that, and have the elixirs be around the power of a boosted level 2 spell (not being concentration is a big boost), and reflect the abilities of actual potions in the game.
I honestly don't see the need for a buff to the Experimental Elixir. At level 9 (When the Artificer gets its third level spells) the Elixir gets a huge buff. Adding an additional 2d6 + Int Modifier in temporary Hitpoints as well as the previous effect. This turns the Resilience and Boldness elixirs into exceptionally good pre-combat elixirs. and a +1 to AC or anywhere from a +1 to +4 to Attacks and Saving Throws is actually quite huge.
Because experimental elixir is terrible at lower levels, and if its only redeeming feature is a buff at 9th level which completely replaces the purpose of it, that is a problem. The effects of it are SERIOUSLY weak, especially for a half caster.
I don't think they are terrible, and the 9th level feature doesn't replace the original elixirs, but enhances them. Not sure how the purpose changes because they add temporary hit points. It is also important to note that the temporary hit points that Restorative Reagents grants has no time limit. So they stay there indefinitely until they are used or some other ability grants you more temporary hit points.
I also think you are severely underestimating the power of +1 AC or +1 to 4 on Attack and Saving Throws.
That being said, I could see where there could be some improvement to maintain their relevance long term. I would probably add an "Up Casting" clause to each of the Experimental Elixir effects, allowing the effects to do more if you expended spell slots on them. Something like the following:
Healing. The drinker regains a number of Hit Points equal to 2d4 + your intelligence modifier. If you expended a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the healing increases by 1d4 for each slot above the 1st. Swiftness. The drinker's walking speed increases by 10 feet for 1 hour. If you expended a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the creatures walking speed is increased an additional 10 feet for each slot above the 1st. Resilience. The drinker gains a +1 bonus to AC for 10 minutes. If you expend a spell slot of 3rd or 4th level, the drinker gains a +2 bonus to AC instead. If you expend a spell slot of 5th level, the drinker gains a +3 bonus to AC instead. Boldness. The drinker can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to every Attack roll and saving throw they make for the next minute. If you expend a spell slot of 3rd level, the drinker can roll a d6 instead. If you expend a spell slot of 5th level, the drinker can roll a d8 instead. Flight. The drinker gains a flying speed of 10 feet for 10 minutes. If you expended a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the creatures flying speed is increased an additional 20 feet for each slot above the 1st. Transformation. The drinker's body is transformed as if by the Alter Self spell. The drinker determines the transformation caused by the spell, the Effects of which last for 10 minutes. If you expend a spell slot of 2nd or 3rd level, the effect lasts for up to 1 hour. If you expend a spell slot of 4th or 5th level, the effect lasts for up to 8 hours.
They are poor. They are all either "1st level spell without concentration" or "2nd level spell but worse". And remember, the artificer subclass is supposed to determine the playstyle. If you are wasting one of your extremely extremely limited daily spell slots on one of these elixirs (before level 9 when they have any use), especially considering the 5th level feature that makes your spells straight up better than the elixir, you are wasting a spell slot. If the alchemist should have to prepare everything and pray to god they don't get into any combat where they don't have multiple rounds to prepare (so most combats), then they should, at very least, have a more potent ability to buff. Experimental elixir is a horrible feature, even with upcasting, that causes more problems.
Yes, I am going to expend a spell slot for a single target bless. Sure it doesn't require concentration, but that does not matter to me because I am a half caster and should only be spending spell slots on things that are absolutely necessary. Same thing for "shield of faith but half as strong, but without concentration". The only one that does not need a buff is bouyancy, because that has an actual use and even a minor justification for spending a spell slot on it. Oh boy! Cure wounds but slightly more optimized! Oh wait, my 5th level feature just makes cure wounds better for me, so I have no reason to get this? Oh boy, alter self but without the adaptability inherent in it, making it just a very sitautionally useful thing that will almost definitely get forgotten about. Oh boy, longstrider! Its literally just longstrider!
All right.
Thought experiment.
What is a "potion-based class" supposed to do?
I keep hearing that nonsense, that the alchemist is supposed to be Za Poshunz Guy, but realistically now - what is a potion? A "potion" is nothing more than a drinkable spell. There is nothing, mechanically, that separates a magical potion effect from a magical spell effect save delivery method, and even then there's an argument to be made that delivery method isn't critical - a touch spell could easily be flavored as "here, suck down this shot of magic whiskey" and become a 'potion'.
The only thing - the only thing - that sets "POTIONS" apart from normal ordinary everyday spells is the idea that you can bank them. Make a potion, stuff it in a bucket, carry the bucket around, drink the potion when you need the spell. That is it. For many in-game magic potions, that is the only possible difference. The actual effects of a Potion of Invisibility and the spell Invisibility are indistinguishable. So. What does this mean, and what - as a game designer - are you looking to accomplish with "POTIONS"?
The only answer that suggests itself, at least to me, is that people who like "POTIONS", who are drawn to the Potion Guy version of the alchemist tropes, want to be the Clever Planner. They want to be the person who foresees the party's need and prepares exactly the right thing ahead of time. They want to be that guy who, upon receiving a mission to go clear out a nest of imps in a cavern in the hills, sits down and gets a bunch of Antitoxins and maybe a couple of potions of See Invisibility ready. Their fun comes from being able to anticipate a problem and prepare the solution before it comes up, cleverly making use of the expanded resources available at their home base to ease their party's way. People like to call this 'Being a Support player', but that's an incorrect identifier. What it's more about is a feeling of value from being able to outwit the game, counter its challenges before those challenges even materialize, and make maximal use of the non-mobile resources of the party's home town, camp, or keep even while traveling.
Normally I would say "that's fine", and to a degree it is. But, as I have noted so god damned many times to both Bunsen and many other people, carrying that playstyle to its extreme means creating a character that has no business being a member of the party. The Ultimate Potionmaker would be able to perfectly predict which potions the party would need for any adventure and supply exactly those potions to the party before they set out...meaning the Ultimate Potionmaker has already contributed as much as they possibly can to the adventure and has no need to accompany the heroes. They have already Done Their Job(C), and taking them with is nothing but a waste and a meaningless risk.
Experimental Elixir doesn't feel good to Ultimate Potionmakers because it's not any different than casting spells. You use a spell slot to make the effect you need when you need it. There's no element of cleverness, no element of foresight or planning. No need for special resources (other than the forty pounds of flasks), and no need to make an elixir to bank against future need. Arguably, there's no good way to do what Ultimate Potionmakers want done without effectively removing them from an adventuring party. One does not brew potions in the field; if you can quickfire a potion effect, it becomes no different from a regular spell and Ultimate Potionmakers lose interest.
Experimental Elixir doesn't feel good to anyone else because it ******* sucks.
So, Bunsen. How do you do it? How do you make a class that makes Ultimate Potionmakers trill in glee without also making it a class that never has any reason to leave town? How do you satisfy the requirements of being the Clever Planner for your group in a way that keeps the Planner in the game, instead of just being an unusually mouthy NPC between adventures? How do you make a potion-centric feature that isn't just spellcasting with maple syrup flavoring?
If you hate the artificer so much, hate the idea of being an adventurer instead of The Support Guy, then tell me - how do you do this correctly, if everything I've said is always wrong?
Please do not contact or message me.
I kind of agree with Yumei on this one. Right now artificer kind of feels like a kind of bad support class. I'll still play it but I'll ask my DM if they're okay with keeping a few of the old things like arcane jolt giving the defender a magic attack classification and RCfrJ back. The buffs to the infusions is nice, but they're a little squishy to be front line fighters from my experience. And they don't really do much damage from the back either. So it's just kind of in the middle and not very good at being there.
I do not hate the artificer or the idea of being an adventurer, please do not attribute things I have not said to me. I would have it be a combination of things like arcane recovery for the wizards (some spell slots back on a short rest, so that you don't get screwed over at low levels due to limited spell slots), along with the ability to generate effects that are roughly around higher level spells with lower level spell slots (like 1st level for a potion that gave someone greater invisibility for 3 rounds, or something like alter self where you drink it and you get a magic natural weapon, that just happens to gel with the artificer playstyle really well because it is designed to, or a +20 speed potion that lasted an hour, or a super healing potion that gave you a lot of hp and temp hp) that cost a bonus action to activate. I would also, for damage, focus on cantrips, but design a cantrip specifically to function with the artificer that makes the most use out of the alchemists level 5. I would have the alchemist be someone who shot a super powered cantrip as their main damage source (like, 2d12+5 on a hit), and then could grant an ally next to them, or themselves, a useful buff as a bonus action, to power things up.
I don't mean poison spray by that cantrip either, I mean an attack roll based damage switching d12 that is artificer only. It frustrates me that the defender turret does a better job doing what I want the alchemist to be able to do, and the alchemist just gets some slightly more powerful 1st level spells that are really not worth casting as a half caster, especially after their level 5 feature makes casting cure wounds an actual viable action to play as a healer.
Home Brew: You know how to brew potions in your downtime. You know 3 alchemical formulae, and learn 1 additional one whenever you gain an artificer level. Your alchemical formulae are replications of spells, which you can choose from any classes spell list, provided that that spell does not deal damage, and the casting time of it is one action, one bonus action, or one reaction, and is a level of 2nd or under. When you finish a short or long rest, you can create a number of potions with a combined level equal to half your artificer level (rounded down) + your INT modifier. These potions lose their magic when you finish a short or long rest. At any point while a potion is magical, as a bonus action, a creature can drink it, and cast the spell that you used the formula for to create this potion, at its lowest level, targeting itself. If the spell requires a saving throw or modifier, it uses your spellcasting modifier and saving throw dc, but if it requires concentration, that creature that drank it must provide it.
arcane jolt doesnt need to give a defender magic damage, it already deals force.
Give the alchemist the ability to make and throw bombs - problem solved?
Not even a little bit, but some people would houserule that they can do that anyways. Alchemist's fire is a hell of a drug.
@Bunsen: that's just the 3.5e Spell-Storing Item in liquid form. I'm starting to despise that feature, given how many people are thoroughly up its ass and consider the 3.5e SSI to be the only reason an artificer should exist at all. Yes, I get the whole "I wanna give my buddies who don't cast spells something cool to do with their concentration!" thing, but it's just not the way 5e works.
Can we please forget the 3.5e artificer, or at least realize that it's staying in its edition and this one is a new dealio?
Please do not contact or message me.
Ok. If potions are spells, arlchemists should get extra spells in forms of potions.
I have never played any edition other than 5e, please do not think I am trying to recreate a class that does not work.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GB12zVbQBtP6URKN_UGz2O0JXJZBKqC6flqNKfg4hsE/edit?usp=sharing here is a revised Experimental Elixir that me and a group of people who homebrew seriously made, to balance it out with the other subclasses in terms of power. If this was on the actual alchemist, I would have less problems with it.
Alchemist seems... workable in my opinion, and not that much different from the play-test material. It's features look to have been spread out over more levels, meaning the sub-class doesn't really come online until level 10.
But saying that; in a party with for example, a battle smith (like mine), I can definitely see a player feeling alchemist under preforms. But that's not a problem exclusive to the artificer class.
My players love high magic, post apocalyptic fantasyXsci-fi and are drooling for more artificer stuff to play with. I could see giving experimental elixir the temp hit point buff right off the bat at 3rd and giving the homunculus infusion for free at 9th instead. Maybe buff homunculus to calc hp like the cannons and defender.
That should keep them happy
The alchemist abilities besides experimental elixir are honestly fine. Like, yes, it doesn't have the high DPR of the other two, but it was not designed for that. One of the things I read, which I agree the most with, is "battle smith and artillerist get a boosted 2nd level spell at level 3, alchemist gets some randomized mildly improved 1st level spells at 3rd level". It is playable, I believe, but it might feel underwhelming until level 9, when you become a temp hp machine.
That was my take away also. Alchemist catches up to the boosted 2nd level spell party by 9th, when her elixirs become boosted 2nd level false lives.
I'd see the power spike gap as an issue mainly below level 10 in a party with another artificer. Otherwise everyone's probably too distracted by all the buffs and infusions you'll be throwing around to notice the difference.
It's a head scratcher as to why the alchemist has to wait so long while the other sub-classes don't. It's a hard pill to swallow but in the meantime a party at low to mid levels can get pretty far with 10mins non concentration fly speed if a DM hasn't designed encounters around it.
The version I made for experimental elixir was an attempt to fix that, and have the elixirs be around the power of a boosted level 2 spell (not being concentration is a big boost), and reflect the abilities of actual potions in the game.
I honestly don't see the need for a buff to the Experimental Elixir. At level 9 (When the Artificer gets its third level spells) the Elixir gets a huge buff. Adding an additional 2d6 + Int Modifier in temporary Hitpoints as well as the previous effect. This turns the Resilience and Boldness elixirs into exceptionally good pre-combat elixirs. and a +1 to AC or anywhere from a +1 to +4 to Attacks and Saving Throws is actually quite huge.
Because experimental elixir is terrible at lower levels, and if its only redeeming feature is a buff at 9th level which completely replaces the purpose of it, that is a problem. The effects of it are SERIOUSLY weak, especially for a half caster.
I don't think they are terrible, and the 9th level feature doesn't replace the original elixirs, but enhances them. Not sure how the purpose changes because they add temporary hit points. It is also important to note that the temporary hit points that Restorative Reagents grants has no time limit. So they stay there indefinitely until they are used or some other ability grants you more temporary hit points.
I also think you are severely underestimating the power of +1 AC or +1 to 4 on Attack and Saving Throws.
That being said, I could see where there could be some improvement to maintain their relevance long term. I would probably add an "Up Casting" clause to each of the Experimental Elixir effects, allowing the effects to do more if you expended spell slots on them. Something like the following:
Healing. The drinker regains a number of Hit Points equal to 2d4 + your intelligence modifier. If you expended a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the healing increases by 1d4 for each slot above the 1st.
Swiftness. The drinker's walking speed increases by 10 feet for 1 hour. If you expended a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the creatures walking speed is increased an additional 10 feet for each slot above the 1st.
Resilience. The drinker gains a +1 bonus to AC for 10 minutes. If you expend a spell slot of 3rd or 4th level, the drinker gains a +2 bonus to AC instead. If you expend a spell slot of 5th level, the drinker gains a +3 bonus to AC instead.
Boldness. The drinker can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to every Attack roll and saving throw they make for the next minute. If you expend a spell slot of 3rd level, the drinker can roll a d6 instead. If you expend a spell slot of 5th level, the drinker can roll a d8 instead.
Flight. The drinker gains a flying speed of 10 feet for 10 minutes. If you expended a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the creatures flying speed is increased an additional 20 feet for each slot above the 1st.
Transformation. The drinker's body is transformed as if by the Alter Self spell. The drinker determines the transformation caused by the spell, the Effects of which last for 10 minutes. If you expend a spell slot of 2nd or 3rd level, the effect lasts for up to 1 hour. If you expend a spell slot of 4th or 5th level, the effect lasts for up to 8 hours.
They are poor. They are all either "1st level spell without concentration" or "2nd level spell but worse". And remember, the artificer subclass is supposed to determine the playstyle. If you are wasting one of your extremely extremely limited daily spell slots on one of these elixirs (before level 9 when they have any use), especially considering the 5th level feature that makes your spells straight up better than the elixir, you are wasting a spell slot. If the alchemist should have to prepare everything and pray to god they don't get into any combat where they don't have multiple rounds to prepare (so most combats), then they should, at very least, have a more potent ability to buff. Experimental elixir is a horrible feature, even with upcasting, that causes more problems.
Yes, I am going to expend a spell slot for a single target bless. Sure it doesn't require concentration, but that does not matter to me because I am a half caster and should only be spending spell slots on things that are absolutely necessary. Same thing for "shield of faith but half as strong, but without concentration". The only one that does not need a buff is bouyancy, because that has an actual use and even a minor justification for spending a spell slot on it. Oh boy! Cure wounds but slightly more optimized! Oh wait, my 5th level feature just makes cure wounds better for me, so I have no reason to get this? Oh boy, alter self but without the adaptability inherent in it, making it just a very sitautionally useful thing that will almost definitely get forgotten about. Oh boy, longstrider! Its literally just longstrider!