So putting it as an infusion, and increasing the power of the base class and increasing the amount of infusions more than offsets the loss of the powers of the homunculus.
I disagree. Ignoring the difference of 3 free uses at 3rd level vs 1 free use and then gaining more as you level up, since that kind of scaling might have happened anyway had the homunculus remained a class feature, Experimetnal Elixir is an extreme downgrade compared to the Alchemical Homunculus.
Experimental Elixir requires two actions to make/use and has to be delivered to it's target. Alchemical Homunculus could do all of the above within a single bonus action.
Making the base class better doesn't offset the subclass being worse. It just literally makes the other subclasses more attractive options. So far fewer people will be likely to pick alchemist. Now if the Alchemist had a extra infusion slot over the other two subclasses then maybe I'd agree that it somewhat made up for it. Or if the Many-Handed Pouch was still an option for infusions (because it would have been extremely useful with Experimental elixir still not as good as the Alchemical Homunculus mind, but less worse) or dare I say it a water downed version (say a max range of 100 feet instead of 100 miles) included as a class or subclass feature then I'd consider it a somewhat more even trade.
The length of the free use of the Artillerist's Eldritch cannon is one hour requiring spell slots after that. The length of the free use of a Steel Defender is infinite or until the defender dies, requiring one spell slot after that. Both of those options allow repeated effects (damage, temp hp, used with a bonus action. The length of the free use of Experimental Elixir is ranges from 1 hour, to 10 minutes, to one minute, to an instant effect.
Further, if those elixirs are handed out to other players and those players don't use them (either by forgetting them, or deciding that something else is a better choice for their action), then there's not much point to having them in the first place. The Alchemical Homunculus did not require use of your party's actions, did not require them to remember that you can help out this way, and didn't interrupt your or your party's actions in combat.
Swiftness, Resilience and Boldness are nice but they're almost exclusively combat focused benefits and due to action economy Experimental Elixir is not really useful in combat. Alchemical Homunculus was useful both in combat and out of it.
Flight and transformation are great. If Experimental Elixir had more options that were geared to utility and beneficial outside of combat I'd be much less disappointed with it. As it stands if I want general utility I have a 1/3 chance at getting that after a long rest or I have to sacrifice one of my 3 spell slots on it. Not really good options.
Hell, if it had the same options as the Alchemical Homunculus's Alchemical Salve feature, and an elixir could be drunk as a bonus action, and the Many-Handed Pouch was still an infusion in Eberron: Rising from the Last War. Then I'd consider it a (mostly) even trade. Even with 1 free use at level 3, 2 at level 6, and 3 at level 15 instead of 3 free uses right off the bat. Even removing the temp HP until level 9 and replacing it with the transformation effect (I'd consider that better actually).
That's something we could have had and it would have been quite reasonable to have it. But no. That's not what we got.
Thank you. For a man with a title as unclever as yours, you managed to break it down nicely.
Experimental Elixir is a strictly weaker, kludgier, cruddier version of the Alchemical Homunculus, and the Homunculus Servant infusion is a strictly weaker, kludgier, cruddier version of the Alchemical Homunculus. The Elixir is very clearly a bolted-on afterthought with no real development time or testing put into it because people kept carping "BUT MUH POSHUNZ!! DX" at Wizards during the playtest period, not realizing that their little flying buddy was actually a super useful companion and assistant at all stages of a game. The Alchemist subclass can be considered to not have a 3rd-level feature at all when compared to the Artillerist, or especially the Battlesmith.
Because Experimental Elixir is incredibly weak, even aside from its shitty Wild Chemistry randomization factor. Y'al don't need to make excuses for it. Just own up to the fact that the "MUH POSHUNZ DX" crowd ruined the Alchemist for everybody, and get to homebrewing I suppose. It sucks immensely that we need to homebrew it to make it worth selecting when compared to the actually-useful Battlesmith and the only-moderately-turbonerfed Artillerist, but that's the world we live in now.
This has been an insightful thread :) thanks all who has commented. ill see how well she now does in my current campaign (dungeon of the mad mage) do we get any advantages atleast for brewing potions, poisons etc? as in quicker time,cheaper materials etc?
RAW, no. Not until level 10, when you gain the ability to create Uncommon or lower magical items of any sort for half the cost and a quarter of the time. As a DM, I would probably allow bonuses to checks to create items clearly within a given artificer's specialties (within reason), but that's me. The base rules say no - your artificer is not actually any better, faster, or more efficient at creating anything until level 10, at which point they get to create Common or Uncommon magical items more easily.
Ironically, normal items that are not magical in the slightest are exempt from this and are no easier for a skilled and trained artificer to create than they are for an intelligence-6 barbarian with nine Dex who's never seen a wrench before in his life. Both characters have an absolutely equal chance of successfully crafting any given mundane item, according to RAW.
That's just crazy. my DM is pretty awesome with thematic stuff though so as long as i buy/had the correct materials and equipment needed he would probably allow me an advantage of some degree to fit my profile.
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I disagree. Ignoring the difference of 3 free uses at 3rd level vs 1 free use and then gaining more as you level up, since that kind of scaling might have happened anyway had the homunculus remained a class feature, Experimetnal Elixir is an extreme downgrade compared to the Alchemical Homunculus.
Experimental Elixir requires two actions to make/use and has to be delivered to it's target.
Alchemical Homunculus could do all of the above within a single bonus action.
Making the base class better doesn't offset the subclass being worse. It just literally makes the other subclasses more attractive options. So far fewer people will be likely to pick alchemist. Now if the Alchemist had a extra infusion slot over the other two subclasses then maybe I'd agree that it somewhat made up for it. Or if the Many-Handed Pouch was still an option for infusions (because it would have been extremely useful with Experimental elixir still not as good as the Alchemical Homunculus mind, but less worse) or dare I say it a water downed version (say a max range of 100 feet instead of 100 miles) included as a class or subclass feature then I'd consider it a somewhat more even trade.
The length of the free use of the Artillerist's Eldritch cannon is one hour requiring spell slots after that.
The length of the free use of a Steel Defender is infinite or until the defender dies, requiring one spell slot after that.
Both of those options allow repeated effects (damage, temp hp, used with a bonus action.
The length of the free use of Experimental Elixir is ranges from 1 hour, to 10 minutes, to one minute, to an instant effect.
Further, if those elixirs are handed out to other players and those players don't use them (either by forgetting them, or deciding that something else is a better choice for their action), then there's not much point to having them in the first place. The Alchemical Homunculus did not require use of your party's actions, did not require them to remember that you can help out this way, and didn't interrupt your or your party's actions in combat.
Swiftness, Resilience and Boldness are nice but they're almost exclusively combat focused benefits and due to action economy Experimental Elixir is not really useful in combat. Alchemical Homunculus was useful both in combat and out of it.
Flight and transformation are great. If Experimental Elixir had more options that were geared to utility and beneficial outside of combat I'd be much less disappointed with it. As it stands if I want general utility I have a 1/3 chance at getting that after a long rest or I have to sacrifice one of my 3 spell slots on it. Not really good options.
Hell, if it had the same options as the Alchemical Homunculus's Alchemical Salve feature, and an elixir could be drunk as a bonus action, and the Many-Handed Pouch was still an infusion in Eberron: Rising from the Last War. Then I'd consider it a (mostly) even trade. Even with 1 free use at level 3, 2 at level 6, and 3 at level 15 instead of 3 free uses right off the bat. Even removing the temp HP until level 9 and replacing it with the transformation effect (I'd consider that better actually).
That's something we could have had and it would have been quite reasonable to have it. But no. That's not what we got.
Thank you. For a man with a title as unclever as yours, you managed to break it down nicely.
Experimental Elixir is a strictly weaker, kludgier, cruddier version of the Alchemical Homunculus, and the Homunculus Servant infusion is a strictly weaker, kludgier, cruddier version of the Alchemical Homunculus. The Elixir is very clearly a bolted-on afterthought with no real development time or testing put into it because people kept carping "BUT MUH POSHUNZ!! DX" at Wizards during the playtest period, not realizing that their little flying buddy was actually a super useful companion and assistant at all stages of a game. The Alchemist subclass can be considered to not have a 3rd-level feature at all when compared to the Artillerist, or especially the Battlesmith.
Because Experimental Elixir is incredibly weak, even aside from its shitty Wild Chemistry randomization factor. Y'al don't need to make excuses for it. Just own up to the fact that the "MUH POSHUNZ DX" crowd ruined the Alchemist for everybody, and get to homebrewing I suppose. It sucks immensely that we need to homebrew it to make it worth selecting when compared to the actually-useful Battlesmith and the only-moderately-turbonerfed Artillerist, but that's the world we live in now.
Please do not contact or message me.
This has been an insightful thread :) thanks all who has commented. ill see how well she now does in my current campaign (dungeon of the mad mage) do we get any advantages atleast for brewing potions, poisons etc? as in quicker time,cheaper materials etc?
RAW, no. Not until level 10, when you gain the ability to create Uncommon or lower magical items of any sort for half the cost and a quarter of the time. As a DM, I would probably allow bonuses to checks to create items clearly within a given artificer's specialties (within reason), but that's me. The base rules say no - your artificer is not actually any better, faster, or more efficient at creating anything until level 10, at which point they get to create Common or Uncommon magical items more easily.
Ironically, normal items that are not magical in the slightest are exempt from this and are no easier for a skilled and trained artificer to create than they are for an intelligence-6 barbarian with nine Dex who's never seen a wrench before in his life. Both characters have an absolutely equal chance of successfully crafting any given mundane item, according to RAW.
Please do not contact or message me.
That's just crazy. my DM is pretty awesome with thematic stuff though so as long as i buy/had the correct materials and equipment needed he would probably allow me an advantage of some degree to fit my profile.