So, I've been thinking about ways turn an infused item permanent and here's my plan:
For a permanent version of an infused item, why not build your formula with the infusion in mind and use the daily infusion over the course of the time it would take to create the item. The Crafting Magic Item tables give you a set amount of time and gold needed to create an item. Artificers get their bonus to quarter the time and halve the gold. So you spend the time and gold required, but in lieu of using a spell slot, you use your daily infusion. Theoretically, at the end of the process, the infusion becomes a permanent item.
Your end effect would still be limited by your level. For example, Enhanced Weapon: Making a permanent version before lvl 10 would make it a permanent +1.. After level 10, permanent +2.
One could argue that this is oversimplified and makes obtaining magic items 'too easy', given that you avoid the Stupid Item Destroying Setback table this way - not to mention you gaining the ability to use the permanent item before it's finished, via infusions - but it's also limited solely to what the artificer can infuse. No Staves of Power here.
As both a player and a DM, I'd argue that anything the artificer knows the infusion for is valid for their halving/quartering, regardless of rarity, due to the infusion serving as a model and blueprint/schematic for that item. Infusions are even specifically called out as "prototypes for permanent items"; it makes absolutely no sense that an artificer cannot use one to simplify their work in crafting a magical object. I may require a player to have a second item they're working on the permanent enchantment for, though. After all, the infusion would ostensibly interfere with applying the necessary magical weaves and modifications to a base item, and one could argue that the infusion process itself is fundamentally different than a permanent object.
Your +2 Enhanced Weapon serves as a blueprint for the rare +2 weapon, allowing you to craft it with the artificer's bonuses to cost and time, but you would need a second weapon to serve as the basis for the permanent infusion. After all, real-life technical development doesn't take the prototype and rejigger it directly into the finished object; the prototype serves as a model, proof-of-concept and practice for the final item, which is built from scratch using what one learned from prototyping.
Just for fun when doing the prototype process I would insist it has to be a different weapon every day of infusing as the mundane Weapon is destroyed in the process, and watch them scramble to find and carry 10+ longswords to enchant.
Just for fun when doing the prototype process I would insist it has to be a different weapon every day of infusing as the mundane Weapon is destroyed in the process, and watch them scramble to find and carry 10+ longswords to enchant.
Note: ERftLW Artificers only get a time and materials bonus to crafting common and uncommon rarity magic items, not rare+. So +2 weapons and +1 armor aren't covered by the bonus.
Well aware. We're talking primarily about light homebrew options and special rules for artificers crafting items they have an infusion for, which should be all rights be easier for them to make. The idea that an artificer's infusions do not benefit them at all when creating new permanent magical equipment doesn't sit right with a lot of artificer players, I'd imagine.
I agree, you should be able to use your infused item as a Formula for crafting a permanent one. Assuming you're using the rules from Xanthar's for crafting magical items. It would still take all of the supplies, time, and special ingredients that would be normally be needed. It just trades a class feature for the recipe.
I really don't like the way they priced the formulas for crafting magical items in the current version. It actually punishes players for wanting to make their own gear. This would actually really setup the Artificer as the class to make for a crafting character.
... It actually punishes players for wanting to make their own gear. ...
Ding. And thus the truth is revealed. This is exactly why both the DMG and Xanathar crafting rules (and their 'Buying/Selling Magic items' rules) are so arbitrary, asinine, punitive and stupid. Players are not supposed to decide their own kits in 5e; all magical equipment must be assigned via rolls on the Magic Item Treasure Tables or sourced as salvage from enemies who have access to the mythical ability to secure exactly the right magical equipment to suit their purposes and requirements.
The designers of Fifth Edition do not want you to have access to magical equipment. When you get it, they want it to be completely randomized, with a very low chance of actually being anything you can use. I'm honestly a little surprised they introduced the artificer at all, given how badly it clashes with the overall design goals of 5e.
The good news is, as DM for my two groups, I've waived RAW on crafting and set up my own manner. PCs have to make ability checks early on, DC determined by rarity and experience crafting said item. It takes into account how well they're acquainted with their tools. The more of a certain type of item they craft, the faster and cheaper they can craft it. If someone proficient with the Herb Kit starts making potions, after the 10th potion they create of a particular type, they'll rarely have to perform the ability checks unless there's an unfavorable scenario.
Honestly... If you've made 20 swords trying to perfect your art, there's no way you won't eventually make a +1 by ACCIDENT.. Making that +1, you go "Oh snap.. I can do better than I originally thought!" So they start striving for the +1 and eventually can turn them out without an issue... then BAM/OOPS!! +2.. and so on and on. Crafting should be about naturally getting better..
Now.. if they attempt to make something they've never done before... it sets it back to making DC checks again.. and if they haven't made something for a long enough time that I determine they might have become a bit rusty... then I might make them roll a low DC WIS to just see how well they remember the process.. All of this takes into account Gold, Materials, and Time as well. A well versed Blacksmith would be able to hammer out impurities in low quality iron and increase its value, given time.
The good news is, as DM for my two groups, I've waived RAW on crafting and set up my own manner. PCs have to make ability checks early on, DC determined by rarity and experience crafting said item. It takes into account how well they're acquainted with their tools. The more of a certain type of item they craft, the faster and cheaper they can craft it. If someone proficient with the Herb Kit starts making potions, after the 10th potion they create of a particular type, they'll rarely have to perform the ability checks unless there's an unfavorable scenario.
Honestly... If you've made 20 swords trying to perfect your art, there's no way you won't eventually make a +1 by ACCIDENT.. Making that +1, you go "Oh snap.. I can do better than I originally thought!" So they start striving for the +1 and eventually can turn them out without an issue... then BAM/OOPS!! +2.. and so on and on. Crafting should be about naturally getting better..
Now.. if they attempt to make something they've never done before... it sets it back to making DC checks again.. and if they haven't made something for a long enough time that I determine they might have become a bit rusty... then I might make them roll a low DC WIS to just see how well they remember the process.. All of this takes into account Gold, Materials, and Time as well. A well versed Blacksmith would be able to hammer out impurities in low quality iron and increase its value, given time.
I’m confused. Why do you think that WotC discourages using/choosing magic items? I haven’t seen them suggest anything like that, and they make it very clear that groups are welcome to adjust game rules to their (group’s) liking.
Because the basic rules of the game are enormously disadvantageous for anyone trying to acquire even the most basic of magical gear through any method save Randomized Dungeon Loot. Both the DMG and the Xanathar's Guide crafting rules for magical items takes thousands of gold and dozens of weeks to accomplish even a basic craft, with a strong suggestion of at least one "roll to see if the universe kicks your player in the dick and ruins their item" roll, otherwise known as a "Complication", per week of work. Furthermore, buying magical items - or even simply selling ones you find that neither you nor your party have any use for, is also rife with chances for failure. In addition, buying magical items comes with a huge cost inflation, and selling them nets you, in general, less than a quarter of their actual cost.
Trading magical items isn't even covered - offering your ancient Wand of Secrets to a mage's college in exchange for the +1 longsword you'd like to have now that you're a level 16 Fighter and are feeling rather pinched at the lack of options you have for piercing magical defenses is strictly forbidden in an AL-like "the rules are the rules" game. By RAW, any method of acquiring magical gear outside of randomized dungeon loot, or seeded items written into an adventure module because apparently these asinine crafting/acquisition rules don't apply for anyone else in Creation, is so hugely, prohibitively time or cost-intensive as to be nonviable.
Either your DM is the sort who likes to reward players with shit they can actually use most of the time, or you're up shit creek.
I'm 2.5 years late to this party, but Yurei grossly misunderstood and/or exaggerated the rules for magic item crafting times & costs, and complications don't necessarily ruin the item you're making.
Also I have no idea why this person decided to completely make up this new rule: "all magical equipment must be assigned via rolls on the Magic Item Treasure Tables or sourced as salvage from enemies who have access to the mythical ability to secure exactly the right magical equipment to suit their purposes and requirements." That's simply not a thing.
The rules are fairly well laid out. For basic: ”To determine how many workweeks it takes to create an item, divide its gold piece cost by 50.” And You can combine, but both you and any assistants must have the necessary proficiency.
Magic items add another layer of complexity.
You’ve got to have a formula. We’re assuming infusions (as they are basically prototypes) would work.
Materials – per the writeup – gotta get it from a quest (why you want to quest for that meteor iron for you item instead of questing for the specific item – who knows?) Either way they don’t want a player to be able to just buy the materials. I’m also assuming only one exotic material.
The Gold, this is in addition to the exotic material.
Chance for complications. 5 of the 6 rolls on the table are basically there to screw the player over. 1, 2 = stop working on item; 3 = item probably going to be stolen or something else goes missing (stop working on item); 4 = finish item but noble takes it; 5 = stop working on item; 6 = What competitor? You’re making the item because you want something specific. Unless you’ve gone from playing D&D (adventurers) to playing Merchants and Traders.
Based on the magic item cost table and the complications, what this really does is limit player created magic items to common or uncommon. Also the same limit as the artificier’s Magic Item Adept. They don’t want players creating anything above uncommon rarity.
While 5e is a high fantasy game it is intended to be a low magic system (even in the relatively high magic FR setting) as opposed to the 3.x/4e systems that had tons of magic items and different more open crafting rules. This was Yurei’s complaint - it becomes clear that the crafting rules are designed to make crafting anything more than uncommon extremely difficult. I get around that with homebrew alterations in my campaign and I suspect many others that run moderate to high magic campaigns do so as well.
so - your campaign may be ultra low magic making 5e’s low magic seem like a candy shoppe but I can’t compare what I see to what I can’t see. So I don’t compare your campaign to mine I’m (and I think Yurei and others) trying to compare what we see in the 5e rules for crafting and number and types of magic between editions. And 5e is much lower than 3.5 as bracers of armor illustrates: in 5e they provide a flat +2 to AC, in 3.5 they provided +2 at the worst and as much as +8 for the rarest version. Weapons and armor: 5e- +3 max, 3.5e - +5 max, etc
Is it zero magic? Obviously no, is it low in comparison to earlier editions? Obviously yes. If you want to call it a medium magic system that is fine with me. But it doesn’t really change the effect that 5e has ( to a greater or lesser extent) nerfed both magic in general and the ability of PCs to create their own magic items when compared to earlier systems.
So, I've been thinking about ways turn an infused item permanent and here's my plan:
For a permanent version of an infused item, why not build your formula with the infusion in mind and use the daily infusion over the course of the time it would take to create the item. The Crafting Magic Item tables give you a set amount of time and gold needed to create an item. Artificers get their bonus to quarter the time and halve the gold. So you spend the time and gold required, but in lieu of using a spell slot, you use your daily infusion. Theoretically, at the end of the process, the infusion becomes a permanent item.
Your end effect would still be limited by your level. For example, Enhanced Weapon: Making a permanent version before lvl 10 would make it a permanent +1.. After level 10, permanent +2.
Hm. Interesting.
One could argue that this is oversimplified and makes obtaining magic items 'too easy', given that you avoid the Stupid Item Destroying Setback table this way - not to mention you gaining the ability to use the permanent item before it's finished, via infusions - but it's also limited solely to what the artificer can infuse. No Staves of Power here.
As both a player and a DM, I'd argue that anything the artificer knows the infusion for is valid for their halving/quartering, regardless of rarity, due to the infusion serving as a model and blueprint/schematic for that item. Infusions are even specifically called out as "prototypes for permanent items"; it makes absolutely no sense that an artificer cannot use one to simplify their work in crafting a magical object. I may require a player to have a second item they're working on the permanent enchantment for, though. After all, the infusion would ostensibly interfere with applying the necessary magical weaves and modifications to a base item, and one could argue that the infusion process itself is fundamentally different than a permanent object.
Your +2 Enhanced Weapon serves as a blueprint for the rare +2 weapon, allowing you to craft it with the artificer's bonuses to cost and time, but you would need a second weapon to serve as the basis for the permanent infusion. After all, real-life technical development doesn't take the prototype and rejigger it directly into the finished object; the prototype serves as a model, proof-of-concept and practice for the final item, which is built from scratch using what one learned from prototyping.
Please do not contact or message me.
Just for fun when doing the prototype process I would insist it has to be a different weapon every day of infusing as the mundane Weapon is destroyed in the process, and watch them scramble to find and carry 10+ longswords to enchant.
I LOVE IT
Note: ERftLW Artificers only get a time and materials bonus to crafting common and uncommon rarity magic items, not rare+. So +2 weapons and +1 armor aren't covered by the bonus.
Well aware. We're talking primarily about light homebrew options and special rules for artificers crafting items they have an infusion for, which should be all rights be easier for them to make. The idea that an artificer's infusions do not benefit them at all when creating new permanent magical equipment doesn't sit right with a lot of artificer players, I'd imagine.
Please do not contact or message me.
I agree, you should be able to use your infused item as a Formula for crafting a permanent one. Assuming you're using the rules from Xanthar's for crafting magical items. It would still take all of the supplies, time, and special ingredients that would be normally be needed. It just trades a class feature for the recipe.
I really don't like the way they priced the formulas for crafting magical items in the current version. It actually punishes players for wanting to make their own gear. This would actually really setup the Artificer as the class to make for a crafting character.
Ding. And thus the truth is revealed. This is exactly why both the DMG and Xanathar crafting rules (and their 'Buying/Selling Magic items' rules) are so arbitrary, asinine, punitive and stupid. Players are not supposed to decide their own kits in 5e; all magical equipment must be assigned via rolls on the Magic Item Treasure Tables or sourced as salvage from enemies who have access to the mythical ability to secure exactly the right magical equipment to suit their purposes and requirements.
The designers of Fifth Edition do not want you to have access to magical equipment. When you get it, they want it to be completely randomized, with a very low chance of actually being anything you can use. I'm honestly a little surprised they introduced the artificer at all, given how badly it clashes with the overall design goals of 5e.
Please do not contact or message me.
The good news is, as DM for my two groups, I've waived RAW on crafting and set up my own manner. PCs have to make ability checks early on, DC determined by rarity and experience crafting said item. It takes into account how well they're acquainted with their tools. The more of a certain type of item they craft, the faster and cheaper they can craft it. If someone proficient with the Herb Kit starts making potions, after the 10th potion they create of a particular type, they'll rarely have to perform the ability checks unless there's an unfavorable scenario.
Honestly... If you've made 20 swords trying to perfect your art, there's no way you won't eventually make a +1 by ACCIDENT.. Making that +1, you go "Oh snap.. I can do better than I originally thought!" So they start striving for the +1 and eventually can turn them out without an issue... then BAM/OOPS!! +2.. and so on and on. Crafting should be about naturally getting better..
Now.. if they attempt to make something they've never done before... it sets it back to making DC checks again.. and if they haven't made something for a long enough time that I determine they might have become a bit rusty... then I might make them roll a low DC WIS to just see how well they remember the process.. All of this takes into account Gold, Materials, and Time as well. A well versed Blacksmith would be able to hammer out impurities in low quality iron and increase its value, given time.
Those +1 swords are magical.
I’m confused. Why do you think that WotC discourages using/choosing magic items? I haven’t seen them suggest anything like that, and they make it very clear that groups are welcome to adjust game rules to their (group’s) liking.
Because the basic rules of the game are enormously disadvantageous for anyone trying to acquire even the most basic of magical gear through any method save Randomized Dungeon Loot. Both the DMG and the Xanathar's Guide crafting rules for magical items takes thousands of gold and dozens of weeks to accomplish even a basic craft, with a strong suggestion of at least one "roll to see if the universe kicks your player in the dick and ruins their item" roll, otherwise known as a "Complication", per week of work. Furthermore, buying magical items - or even simply selling ones you find that neither you nor your party have any use for, is also rife with chances for failure. In addition, buying magical items comes with a huge cost inflation, and selling them nets you, in general, less than a quarter of their actual cost.
Trading magical items isn't even covered - offering your ancient Wand of Secrets to a mage's college in exchange for the +1 longsword you'd like to have now that you're a level 16 Fighter and are feeling rather pinched at the lack of options you have for piercing magical defenses is strictly forbidden in an AL-like "the rules are the rules" game. By RAW, any method of acquiring magical gear outside of randomized dungeon loot, or seeded items written into an adventure module because apparently these asinine crafting/acquisition rules don't apply for anyone else in Creation, is so hugely, prohibitively time or cost-intensive as to be nonviable.
Either your DM is the sort who likes to reward players with shit they can actually use most of the time, or you're up shit creek.
Please do not contact or message me.
I'm 2.5 years late to this party, but Yurei grossly misunderstood and/or exaggerated the rules for magic item crafting times & costs, and complications don't necessarily ruin the item you're making.
Also I have no idea why this person decided to completely make up this new rule: "all magical equipment must be assigned via rolls on the Magic Item Treasure Tables or sourced as salvage from enemies who have access to the mythical ability to secure exactly the right magical equipment to suit their purposes and requirements." That's simply not a thing.
No exaggeration, at least not in 5e terms.
The rules are fairly well laid out. For basic: ”To determine how many workweeks it takes to create an item, divide its gold piece cost by 50.” And You can combine, but both you and any assistants must have the necessary proficiency.
Magic items add another layer of complexity.
Based on the magic item cost table and the complications, what this really does is limit player created magic items to common or uncommon. Also the same limit as the artificier’s Magic Item Adept. They don’t want players creating anything above uncommon rarity.
While 5e is a high fantasy game it is intended to be a low magic system (even in the relatively high magic FR setting) as opposed to the 3.x/4e systems that had tons of magic items and different more open crafting rules. This was Yurei’s complaint - it becomes clear that the crafting rules are designed to make crafting anything more than uncommon extremely difficult. I get around that with homebrew alterations in my campaign and I suspect many others that run moderate to high magic campaigns do so as well.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
so - your campaign may be ultra low magic making 5e’s low magic seem like a candy shoppe but I can’t compare what I see to what I can’t see. So I don’t compare your campaign to mine I’m (and I think Yurei and others) trying to compare what we see in the 5e rules for crafting and number and types of magic between editions. And 5e is much lower than 3.5 as bracers of armor illustrates: in 5e they provide a flat +2 to AC, in 3.5 they provided +2 at the worst and as much as +8 for the rarest version. Weapons and armor: 5e- +3 max, 3.5e - +5 max, etc
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Is it zero magic? Obviously no, is it low in comparison to earlier editions? Obviously yes. If you want to call it a medium magic system that is fine with me. But it doesn’t really change the effect that 5e has ( to a greater or lesser extent) nerfed both magic in general and the ability of PCs to create their own magic items when compared to earlier systems.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.