So Artillerists can make use of Enhanced Arcane Focus, Battle Smiths have a wide array of weapon infusions to choose from...
What do Alchemists get to boost their abilities? The lvl 5 ability requires you to cast through alchemists supplies, so there's no way to enhance your casting. You can't cast through any of your infusions and still use your feature (except maybe the Alchemy Jug?). You can't even find a +1 anything in official material.
Am I missing something? The subclass seems really subpar compared to the other two in general.
I've been trying to figure that out myself. Honestly it does feel like its only partly completed. Missing a f ew polish things for it. (Like I think they need a method to get extra potions a day that doesn't require a 1:1 with spell slots---the artilirist get a 1slot to 1 hr (or till destroyed anyway), battlesmith is easily reneweda s well. 1:1 potion is quite painful.
So, they seem very much like +1 armour themselves, and handing out g ifts for the others and keeping a rollin "change each day" one-or just elsewhere bag. They really don't get much internalized improvements. I really wish Pearl of Power was valid for the infusion, because that would help mitigate Elixir Spell slot issues. (also wish they got tol lthe dead/chill touch).
I am hoping in a future release/update/extra they'll add in a low level infusion that gives them "Alchemical Weapons that give a +1 to hit/damage, and count as alchemical tools for the purpose of class abilities." So it is an tool that would let them plug in an Acid Flask, and "spray" people with them, or just keep throwing renewable alchemical items. (well also gain profiency with them). I think an Alchemical Sprayer weapon would be a neat addition to all3 subclasses, but be especially good for an alchemist. Acid flasks, Alch fires, or something.
So Artillerists can make use of Enhanced Arcane Focus, Battle Smiths have a wide array of weapon infusions to choose from...
What do Alchemists get to boost their abilities? The lvl 5 ability requires you to cast through alchemists supplies, so there's no way to enhance your casting. You can't cast through any of your infusions and still use your feature (except maybe the Alchemy Jug?). You can't even find a +1 anything in official material.
Am I missing something? The subclass seems really subpar compared to the other two in general.
You're not missing anything the Alchemist is subpar compared to the other two. Really the only infusion that the Alchemist would benefit from more than the other subclasses is the Homunculus Servant because the Alchemist has fewer available bonus action abilities (the ones it does have all cost spell slots). But that's hardly a benefit due to how generic the Homunculus Servant has become.
It can deliver your touch spells which is cool and opens up a fair bit of options but since that delivery uses up the HS's reaction and doesn't require it's action (as commanded by your bonus action) technically all artificer subclasses can make use of that touch spell channeling without having to use their bonus action since the HS "can move and use its reaction on its own."
So then the only specific benefit to the Alchemist is that they can command the HS a little more freely to use it's actions or channel the alchemis'ts always prepared touch spells. Those would be Death Ward (which with an 8 hour duration you'd likely cast before combat if at all), Raise Dead (which is pretty much only ever going to be cast after combat), and Gaseous Form (which is... a pretty odd yet interesting move to do during combat? I'm sure there are some strategies that could benefit from it).
RAW HS can't even distribute or administrate potions in combat including those made with Experimental Elixir.
Pretty much anything that would synergize well with Experimental Elixir was either removed (Many-Handed Pouch), overlooked (Alchemical Savant), or excluded via RAW (Homunculus Servant).
However, I've heard it stated before that potions are effectively bottled spells and considering that they need to be drunk or administered (such as to an unconscious person) to take effect they are effectively bottled spells with a range of touch. And Experimental Elixir effectively makes potions (though just named as elixir).
Since these are (effectively) bottled spells "cast" via your Alchemist Supplies (as an arcane focus) they should by all means benefit from Alchemical Savant. Further since they are (effectively) bottled spells with a(n effective) range of touch it stands to reason that if your Homunculus can't administrate them with their own action as commanded by your bonus action then you could "channel" the (bottled) spell via your homunculus using it's reaction (in this scenario it would cost your action to do so).
Or your DM could just simplify the whole thing and say, "Yeah sure the HS can use and administrate potions/elixirs. It's a creature so that seems fine." and "Yeah that's really weird that the literal potions you craft with Alchemist Supplies don't benefit from Alchemical Savant RAW. I'm ruling that it applies."
Granted none of that really works well with that whole +1 scenario so my suggestion is to homebrew an infusion (or magic item) that does. Like some +1 alchemist supplies or something.
I posted a homebrew infusion like this in another thread based off of Rod of the Pact Keeper:
Enhanced Artisan Tools (requires attunement)
prerequisite: An artisan tool with which you are proficient
You gain a +1 bonus to spell attack rolls and saving throw DCs of spells that you cast using these tools as a spellcasting focus.
In addition crafting mundane items with these tools take you a quarter of the normal time and costs you half as much of the usual gold.
Because honestly what Artificer wouldn't spend time improving and specializing their favorite tools?
Artificer's Advanced Alchemical Tools. Having them in hand, counts as alchemist tools, and they grant a free bonus action. If they make future infusions for Alchemist-or add in a bit more at lv 3 than just the 1-3 free elixir. I would love one that gives you a bo nus action, that creates an alchemical item like Acid flask or Alchemist Fire or oil, or antivenom (basically anything that can be made via alchemiist tools), and lets you throw it, as a bonus action. (granted non proficiency is weird). They last for the round since they're magitech synthesized so no stockpiling.
Its not amazing damage, but it would be a solid use of bonus action. Create oil and fling itt, to get +5 damage to your firebolt. Create and fling aa alchemist's fire on the wizard. Your friend is surounded by poisonous spiders. Create and splash them with antivenom (that administers through their skin pores-cause you're an alchemist). Etc.
Acid, or Alch fire aren't excessive damages, could very well be less useful later on in levels as well.. But it would be nice as you could still throw stuff out during turns where you're healing or adminsitering a potion etc.
That's probably not an infusion really..... but if they make subclass specific infusions (which I think is good design space to represent their own uniqueness) I think this concept would be really good. Ideally something like this would've been a class feature gained at lv 3. Because the other subclasses both gain bonus action uses at lv 3 and alchemist got none. If they were a class feature, they should also count as tools for the lv 5 feature. As long as you had them in hand during the turn. So you could bonus action create and throw one, then cast a spell that gets the bonsu up
The Alchemist was unfortunately heavily screwed over by people wanting a "Support" subclass, with a poor understanding of what 'Support' means.
The class is intended by Wizards to give away its resources to other characters. It's not meant to use its infusions on itself - an Alchemist player is supposed to want to enhance other players' gear, hand off its crappy Wild Chemistry potions to other players, and spend its turns using its augmented healing abilities whenever possible. That fact that this is horribly inefficient, terribly wasteful, and significantly less useful than simply having a character that's self-sufficient and able to accomplish objectives and take effective action on its own never seems to quite dawn on the "I'm a Support Class!" players.
So now the Alchemist is a very poorly designed 'Support' class, due to an unfortunately common player misunderstanding of what makes for effective support. And because players are, by and large, awful game developers which Wizards nonetheless employs in place of actual game developers...well. here we are.
The elixirs are the equivalent of more spells known. A person can trade first level slots for them and they seem worth those first level slots. Those are non-concentration stacking buffs and worthwhile.
When I was testing it I found that the bless effect and +1 AC elixirs were useful at any level. Drinking their own boldness elixirs gives better accuracy than the enhanced infusions does.
Who does's like giving 3 people no concentration fly at third level?
I think artillerist and battle smith did well but alchemists are better than they first seem.
The elixirs are the equivalent of more spells known. A person can trade first level slots for them and they seem worth those first level slots. Those are non-concentration stacking buffs and worthwhile.
When I was testing it I found that the bless effect and +1 AC elixirs were useful at any level. Drinking their own boldness elixirs gives better accuracy than the enhanced infusions does.
Who does's like giving 3 people no concentration fly at third level?
I think artillerist and battle smith did well but alchemists are better than they first seem.
And at third level those three people fly for ten minutes which is great. But then you're stuck at just cantrips for the rest of the dang day when it comes to combat with maybe the chance to cast one healing word at a critical moment and as an Alchemist that trade off will always be on my mind which will most likely prevent me from spending those spell slots to give three people ten minutes of flying. If I had more free uses of the elixir or the effects lasted longer it'd be less of an issue. If Alchemists had any benefit from short rests beyond hit dice or quick crafting an artisan's tool it'd be less of an issue.
I'm not saying the effects of Experimental Elixir aren't useful. But they are very limited, and often awkward to apply unless you have the luxury of planning in advance. Planning in advance always carries with it an opportunity cost of planning wrongly for the events you'll encounter.
If it were just 6 always prepared custom Alchemist spells and 1 extra spell slot specifically dedicated to cast one of those six I'd much prefer it. That two action cost on the non-random elixir is mostly what kills my enthusiasm for the feature. And that the features that logically should aid in using or crafting Experimental Elixirs don't also bothers me.
Who does's like giving 3 people no concentration fly at third level?
A fly speed of 10ft. So more like gently floating around. Useless against ranged attacks, useless against flying enemies, who will all be faster. And also limited to one fight. And as said, you just spent all your resources for the day. What good is not having to keep concentration, if there's no other spells you can cast, that would require concentration? You'll just be shooting your crossbow for the rest of the day. That's your only action in combat.
Edit: Sorry, I'm just grumpy that this class is so underwhelming. Could've made a cool Doctor, if it were just a bit better. Or at least interesting to play round to round. :(
So now the Alchemist is a very poorly designed 'Support' class
Well, this subclass supports the Beastmaster Ranger to feel awesome.
The elixirs are the equivalent of more spells known. A person can trade first level slots for them and they seem worth those first level slots. Those are non-concentration stacking buffs and worthwhile.
When I was testing it I found that the bless effect and +1 AC elixirs were useful at any level. Drinking their own boldness elixirs gives better accuracy than the enhanced infusions does.
Who does's like giving 3 people no concentration fly at third level?
I think artillerist and battle smith did well but alchemists are better than they first seem.
And at third level those three people fly for ten minutes which is great. But then you're stuck at just cantrips for the rest of the dang day when it comes to combat with maybe the chance to cast one healing word at a critical moment and as an Alchemist that trade off will always be on my mind which will most likely prevent me from spending those spell slots to give three people ten minutes of flying. If I had more free uses of the elixir or the effects lasted longer it'd be less of an issue. If Alchemists had any benefit from short rests beyond hit dice or quick crafting an artisan's tool it'd be less of an issue.
I'm not saying the effects of Experimental Elixir aren't useful. But they are very limited, and often awkward to apply unless you have the luxury of planning in advance. Planning in advance always carries with it an opportunity cost of planning wrongly for the events you'll encounter.
If it were just 6 always prepared custom Alchemist spells and 1 extra spell slot specifically dedicated to cast one of those six I'd much prefer it. That two action cost on the non-random elixir is mostly what kills my enthusiasm for the feature. And that the features that logically should aid in using or crafting Experimental Elixirs don't also bothers me.
All classes rely on cantrips or weapon attacks at low levels. The free elixir is that extra slot and the only PITA is that it's random, and that gets mitigated when every elixir grants temporary hit points. I would be more inclined to use enhanced armor and enhanced weapon at third level as opposed to resorting to cantrip damage, and take advantage of a real AC that all artificers have. Weapon damage is simply better than cantrip damage at those levels.
Healing word is not an artificer spell unless the character is an alchemist. Other alchemists give up an action for the heal and have their bonus actions typically tied up anyway. Healing word is an example of a benefit for alchemists in healing as a bonus action. I would also argue the elixir's can prevent more damage than spells heal.
The "luxury of planning in advance" is an argument typically given for spell preparation but the elixirs take less advanced time to prep. Minutes instead of the next morning.
Overall, it's the equivalent of six first level spells known, one to three random spells in potion form, extra healing bonuses, and a some temporary hit points. The bonus to damage is multiple energy types and not limited to cantrips so much better than most spell casters.
Who does's like giving 3 people no concentration fly at third level?
A fly speed of 10ft. So more like gently floating around. Useless against ranged attacks, useless against flying enemies, who will all be faster. And also limited to one fight. And as said, you just spent all your resources for the day. What good is not having to keep concentration, if there's no other spells you can cast, that would require concentration? You'll just be shooting your crossbow for the rest of the day. That's your only action in combat.
Edit: Sorry, I'm just grumpy that this class is so underwhelming. Could've made a cool Doctor, if it were just a bit better. Or at least interesting to play round to round. :(
The three flying characters was just an example of something no other class can do at that level, but the no concentration part applies to not having the spell being broken by a failed concentration check. Concentration is broken to damage on a regular basis.
If a person wants to concentrate on a spell and fly, then the alchemist can cast that spell and fly and grant flying to another character. Two flying character and a concentration spell at third level is still solid.
Again, shoot a crossbow for most of the day is normal for many classes at that level. It doesn't matter what those spell slots get spent on for that to be true.
Well itst a bit of topic of Infusions for Alchemists.. But.
I do think they should kick up the "Random elixir" which I always fluff as being made from my left over scraps and bobs and ends and weird things I collect while walking around, mixing new things with rando mcrap to produce effects.
But, they should really get INT free Elixiers, renewed on short rest. Why would that be terribly different than Warlock short rest renewel? Seems f air as they're random. Also a lot of them are purely utility (flight speed at 10ft is really not for combat, its for bypassing troubles).
Toss in some sort of scaling for the spell to elixer conversion as well. Even if its simply "double up properties" to some degree. Sure that could result in stonking AC bonus for 10 min at lv 17+ that costs your only (or one of 2) lv 5 spell slots you had. So realistically I think that even if each level multiplied the original effect, it would balance out compared to thet scale of levels and spell slots. Even giving out +2AC usuing all your lv 2 slots at high level would be useful for the right momentt.
Just those two changes would make elixirs extremely appealing-Both as a support minded alchemist and as a gap filler alchemist.
--- Also. I think they should probably get the ability to use Items as a Bonus Action. They have no real use for bonus actions outside of VERY limited healing words. Meanwhile.. Rogue gets Fast Hands. and now In UA, Fighter's combat style gives "Snipe" which lets them throw weapon attack as a bonus action. Which would be perfect for Alchemist to gain, to throw Alchemical Items via.
Throw in a new infusion that lets them create X amount of free Alchemist fire/Acids/oils/Stickybombs/Bombs like the alchemcal jug, and you'd have a whole interesting and neat combat style
It is kind of hilarious that if you want to be an alchemist for the healing, you're better off being a cleric of knowledge. You get more skills and proficiency any tools. It's only an hour but its something better then alchemist.
I rather like Alchemist for Mid Range gap filler. who does a little of every combat style.. Though doesn't excel in any given way much. Which can be an issue..
But I've got a Punching +Shield+Cantrip Alchemist that kind of fills or suppliments roles in combat. Its fun. Undeniably though I don't have nearly enough elixir or slots to signifincantly alter anything.
Based of Roll Caskett from Megaman Legends.
Has a lot of fun with Alch fire or Acids, mostly acid though because free if one has the time for it.
Really did need the Healer feat.
Invest so much in flask.. Enough so I wish there was a magic item that created free flasks daily haha.
======
on the topic of the thread infusions for alchemists.
Best I can find is just standard "up your defense" and "use the extra slot (lv 1-5) on powering up an ally, or switching between magical items as needed" Which is perfume, goggles of night, and alchemy jug. 'cause i like stocking up on acids and oils to suppliment things. or goggles forthe scout or for me. off combat days (or at least we think its off combat day). perfume and jug. build my stocks, and help any conversations. battle armour + goggles. wand of secret I keep wanting to use, but 3 shots a day feels quite hard to time. Will buy one if I get a chance though. May switch out for Moonblade or +1 melee weapon for an ally though
Alchemists don't have any Infusion of their own honestly.. but that does let them use their infusions for much more variety than the other two-who tend to require all or almost all their infusions to gain their battle readiness.
It is kind of hilarious that if you want to be an alchemist for the healing, you're better off being a cleric of knowledge. You get more skills and proficiency any tools. It's only an hour but its something better then alchemist.
How is knowledge cleric better than expertise in tools? Tools can be trained in downtime and it's easy to have proficiency in half a dozen without downtime training. Meanwhile, the knowledge cleric casts a healing word for d4+INTmod and the alchemist artificer casts healing word for d4+INTmod+INTmod using alchemist supplies as a focus. The bonus is added twice for the alchemist -- once because that the spell's base and again for the 5th level ability.
The alchemist has a better bonus to the tool checks and healing spells than the cleric in your comparison. ;)
The subclass simply has more versatility (elixir's) and healing (other abilities) than the other subclasses. At third level the alchemist has a selection from 4 spells prepped and 6 potions on which to spend those spell slots. That's up there with clerics having 10 spells prepped including domains. Alchemists effectively end up with 31 spells prepped because of it and a lot of restorations, plus the 6 infusions.
Keeping on topic, the other two subclasses use infusions to help their combat with the enhancement lines. Alchemist don't have that but they do have boldness and resilience elixirs to use instead for better effectiveness anyway. The subclass turned out to play better than it looks.
It is kind of hilarious that if you want to be an alchemist for the healing, you're better off being a cleric of knowledge. You get more skills and proficiency any tools. It's only an hour but its something better then alchemist.
How is knowledge cleric better than expertise in tools? Tools can be trained in downtime and it's easy to have proficiency in half a dozen without downtime training. Meanwhile, the knowledge cleric casts a healing word for d4+INTmod and the alchemist artificer casts healing word for d4+INTmod+INTmod using alchemist supplies as a focus. The bonus is added twice for the alchemist -- once because that the spell's base and again for the 5th level ability.
The alchemist has a better bonus to the tool checks and healing spells than the cleric in your comparison. ;)
The subclass simply has more versatility (elixir's) and healing (other abilities) than the other subclasses. At third level the alchemist has a selection from 4 spells prepped and 6 potions on which to spend those spell slots. That's up there with clerics having 10 spells prepped including domains. Alchemists effectively end up with 31 spells prepped because of it and a lot of restorations, plus the 6 infusions.
Keeping on topic, the other two subclasses use infusions to help their combat with the enhancement lines. Alchemist don't have that but they do have boldness and resilience elixirs to use instead for better effectiveness anyway. The subclass turned out to play better than it looks.
There are other subclasses that trade damage vs utility. Having flying on the fly or movespeed can prove really useful. Healing word and flaming sphere are hidden uses of their bonus actions to keep up a bit at higher levels.
Onky things that leave a bad taste is that 1 use of a random potion vs a free one hour long heavy extra damage feels a bit bad. I feel that if a second level spell could at least enhance the potions in any way. Make it last twice as long etc.
It would alao be nice if you would get your random potion back on a short rest.
But after looking at it for a while, flying at level 3 can prevent more damage than anything the other subclasses can bring to the table.
"But after looking at it for a while, flying at level 3 can prevent more damage than anything the other subclasses can bring to the table. " (sorry I can't sem tot parse the quote boxes to just this line)
I mean its super useful, but less usueful in combat at 10ft. Its great for bypassing some things. I would say though that while it prevents 1 person really, unless you use your entire day of slots, it'll be only one person. Which can be very good for say a wizard or other weaker caster. but at the same time, I feel like its stronger use would be in World Utility situations, or at least thats where I find more value in it. But I tend to see enough long ranged enemies that flying won't be that inherently safe I guess.
Yep, as I said before, I do really wish they got more random extract and replenished on a short rest like a Warlock. honestly dipping warlock is inherently quite compelling for an Artificer. (As is Rogue theif)
Really though. I would like an Alchemist to get both ofo those features hardbaked in class. Restoring free extracts, and use item as bonus action.
I mean its super useful, but less usueful in combat at 10ft. Its great for bypassing some things. I would say though that while it prevents 1 person really, unless you use your entire day of slots, it'll be only one person. Which can be very good for say a wizard or other weaker caster. but at the same time, I feel like its stronger use would be in World Utility situations, or at least thats where I find more value in it. But I tend to see enough long ranged enemies that flying won't be that inherently safe I guess.
I didn´t speak about combat too. I spoke about circumventing combat by gong different routes which are usually blocked to 3rd level characters.
I personally think that the wand, rod, staff arcane focuses are given to Artillerist, even though it is not explicitly stated. I also changed The Right Tool For the Job abilities to require Thieve's OR Tinker's Tools, which fixes all the subclass' abilities. That kinda "fixes" the issues I have seen with it. About half of the issues seem to be weird wording errors, otherwise, the rules are kinda weird.
If we're altering wording. I think Ehanced Arcane Focus shouldn't be restricted to wand/staff/rod. It should also include the Tool Sets that the artificer can use as a focus... sure it mostly only comes up with Alchemist-who requires the tools in specific to gain their bonus damage (where as artilirist can use their firearm which can stack with the EAF or a normal magical wand).
Alchemist can't actually use EAF if they want Int to heal/damage I believe.. as they're both required to use a specific focus and you can not overlap them.
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So Artillerists can make use of Enhanced Arcane Focus, Battle Smiths have a wide array of weapon infusions to choose from...
What do Alchemists get to boost their abilities? The lvl 5 ability requires you to cast through alchemists supplies, so there's no way to enhance your casting. You can't cast through any of your infusions and still use your feature (except maybe the Alchemy Jug?). You can't even find a +1 anything in official material.
Am I missing something? The subclass seems really subpar compared to the other two in general.
I've been trying to figure that out myself. Honestly it does feel like its only partly completed. Missing a f ew polish things for it. (Like I think they need a method to get extra potions a day that doesn't require a 1:1 with spell slots---the artilirist get a 1slot to 1 hr (or till destroyed anyway), battlesmith is easily reneweda s well. 1:1 potion is quite painful.
So, they seem very much like +1 armour themselves, and handing out g ifts for the others and keeping a rollin "change each day" one-or just elsewhere bag. They really don't get much internalized improvements. I really wish Pearl of Power was valid for the infusion, because that would help mitigate Elixir Spell slot issues. (also wish they got tol lthe dead/chill touch).
I am hoping in a future release/update/extra they'll add in a low level infusion that gives them "Alchemical Weapons that give a +1 to hit/damage, and count as alchemical tools for the purpose of class abilities." So it is an tool that would let them plug in an Acid Flask, and "spray" people with them, or just keep throwing renewable alchemical items. (well also gain profiency with them).
I think an Alchemical Sprayer weapon would be a neat addition to all3 subclasses, but be especially good for an alchemist. Acid flasks, Alch fires, or something.
You're not missing anything the Alchemist is subpar compared to the other two. Really the only infusion that the Alchemist would benefit from more than the other subclasses is the Homunculus Servant because the Alchemist has fewer available bonus action abilities (the ones it does have all cost spell slots). But that's hardly a benefit due to how generic the Homunculus Servant has become.
It can deliver your touch spells which is cool and opens up a fair bit of options but since that delivery uses up the HS's reaction and doesn't require it's action (as commanded by your bonus action) technically all artificer subclasses can make use of that touch spell channeling without having to use their bonus action since the HS "can move and use its reaction on its own."
So then the only specific benefit to the Alchemist is that they can command the HS a little more freely to use it's actions or channel the alchemis'ts always prepared touch spells. Those would be Death Ward (which with an 8 hour duration you'd likely cast before combat if at all), Raise Dead (which is pretty much only ever going to be cast after combat), and Gaseous Form (which is... a pretty odd yet interesting move to do during combat? I'm sure there are some strategies that could benefit from it).
RAW HS can't even distribute or administrate potions in combat including those made with Experimental Elixir.
Pretty much anything that would synergize well with Experimental Elixir was either removed (Many-Handed Pouch), overlooked (Alchemical Savant), or excluded via RAW (Homunculus Servant).
However, I've heard it stated before that potions are effectively bottled spells and considering that they need to be drunk or administered (such as to an unconscious person) to take effect they are effectively bottled spells with a range of touch. And Experimental Elixir effectively makes potions (though just named as elixir).
Since these are (effectively) bottled spells "cast" via your Alchemist Supplies (as an arcane focus) they should by all means benefit from Alchemical Savant. Further since they are (effectively) bottled spells with a(n effective) range of touch it stands to reason that if your Homunculus can't administrate them with their own action as commanded by your bonus action then you could "channel" the (bottled) spell via your homunculus using it's reaction (in this scenario it would cost your action to do so).
Or your DM could just simplify the whole thing and say, "Yeah sure the HS can use and administrate potions/elixirs. It's a creature so that seems fine." and "Yeah that's really weird that the literal potions you craft with Alchemist Supplies don't benefit from Alchemical Savant RAW. I'm ruling that it applies."
Granted none of that really works well with that whole +1 scenario so my suggestion is to homebrew an infusion (or magic item) that does. Like some +1 alchemist supplies or something.
I posted a homebrew infusion like this in another thread based off of Rod of the Pact Keeper:
Because honestly what Artificer wouldn't spend time improving and specializing their favorite tools?
Artificer's Advanced Alchemical Tools. Having them in hand, counts as alchemist tools, and they grant a free bonus action. If they make future infusions for Alchemist-or add in a bit more at lv 3 than just the 1-3 free elixir.
I would love one that gives you a bo nus action, that creates an alchemical item like Acid flask or Alchemist Fire or oil, or antivenom (basically anything that can be made via alchemiist tools), and lets you throw it, as a bonus action. (granted non proficiency is weird). They last for the round since they're magitech synthesized so no stockpiling.
Its not amazing damage, but it would be a solid use of bonus action. Create oil and fling itt, to get +5 damage to your firebolt. Create and fling aa alchemist's fire on the wizard. Your friend is surounded by poisonous spiders. Create and splash them with antivenom (that administers through their skin pores-cause you're an alchemist). Etc.
Acid, or Alch fire aren't excessive damages, could very well be less useful later on in levels as well.. But it would be nice as you could still throw stuff out during turns where you're healing or adminsitering a potion etc.
That's probably not an infusion really..... but if they make subclass specific infusions (which I think is good design space to represent their own uniqueness) I think this concept would be really good. Ideally something like this would've been a class feature gained at lv 3. Because the other subclasses both gain bonus action uses at lv 3 and alchemist got none. If they were a class feature, they should also count as tools for the lv 5 feature. As long as you had them in hand during the turn. So you could bonus action create and throw one, then cast a spell that gets the bonsu up
The Alchemist was unfortunately heavily screwed over by people wanting a "Support" subclass, with a poor understanding of what 'Support' means.
The class is intended by Wizards to give away its resources to other characters. It's not meant to use its infusions on itself - an Alchemist player is supposed to want to enhance other players' gear, hand off its crappy Wild Chemistry potions to other players, and spend its turns using its augmented healing abilities whenever possible. That fact that this is horribly inefficient, terribly wasteful, and significantly less useful than simply having a character that's self-sufficient and able to accomplish objectives and take effective action on its own never seems to quite dawn on the "I'm a Support Class!" players.
So now the Alchemist is a very poorly designed 'Support' class, due to an unfortunately common player misunderstanding of what makes for effective support. And because players are, by and large, awful game developers which Wizards nonetheless employs in place of actual game developers...well. here we are.
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The elixirs are the equivalent of more spells known. A person can trade first level slots for them and they seem worth those first level slots. Those are non-concentration stacking buffs and worthwhile.
When I was testing it I found that the bless effect and +1 AC elixirs were useful at any level. Drinking their own boldness elixirs gives better accuracy than the enhanced infusions does.
Who does's like giving 3 people no concentration fly at third level?
I think artillerist and battle smith did well but alchemists are better than they first seem.
And at third level those three people fly for ten minutes which is great. But then you're stuck at just cantrips for the rest of the dang day when it comes to combat with maybe the chance to cast one healing word at a critical moment and as an Alchemist that trade off will always be on my mind which will most likely prevent me from spending those spell slots to give three people ten minutes of flying. If I had more free uses of the elixir or the effects lasted longer it'd be less of an issue. If Alchemists had any benefit from short rests beyond hit dice or quick crafting an artisan's tool it'd be less of an issue.
I'm not saying the effects of Experimental Elixir aren't useful. But they are very limited, and often awkward to apply unless you have the luxury of planning in advance. Planning in advance always carries with it an opportunity cost of planning wrongly for the events you'll encounter.
If it were just 6 always prepared custom Alchemist spells and 1 extra spell slot specifically dedicated to cast one of those six I'd much prefer it. That two action cost on the non-random elixir is mostly what kills my enthusiasm for the feature. And that the features that logically should aid in using or crafting Experimental Elixirs don't also bothers me.
A fly speed of 10ft. So more like gently floating around. Useless against ranged attacks, useless against flying enemies, who will all be faster. And also limited to one fight. And as said, you just spent all your resources for the day. What good is not having to keep concentration, if there's no other spells you can cast, that would require concentration? You'll just be shooting your crossbow for the rest of the day. That's your only action in combat.
Edit: Sorry, I'm just grumpy that this class is so underwhelming. Could've made a cool Doctor, if it were just a bit better. Or at least interesting to play round to round. :(
Well, this subclass supports the Beastmaster Ranger to feel awesome.
All classes rely on cantrips or weapon attacks at low levels. The free elixir is that extra slot and the only PITA is that it's random, and that gets mitigated when every elixir grants temporary hit points. I would be more inclined to use enhanced armor and enhanced weapon at third level as opposed to resorting to cantrip damage, and take advantage of a real AC that all artificers have. Weapon damage is simply better than cantrip damage at those levels.
Healing word is not an artificer spell unless the character is an alchemist. Other alchemists give up an action for the heal and have their bonus actions typically tied up anyway. Healing word is an example of a benefit for alchemists in healing as a bonus action. I would also argue the elixir's can prevent more damage than spells heal.
The "luxury of planning in advance" is an argument typically given for spell preparation but the elixirs take less advanced time to prep. Minutes instead of the next morning.
Overall, it's the equivalent of six first level spells known, one to three random spells in potion form, extra healing bonuses, and a some temporary hit points. The bonus to damage is multiple energy types and not limited to cantrips so much better than most spell casters.
The three flying characters was just an example of something no other class can do at that level, but the no concentration part applies to not having the spell being broken by a failed concentration check. Concentration is broken to damage on a regular basis.
If a person wants to concentrate on a spell and fly, then the alchemist can cast that spell and fly and grant flying to another character. Two flying character and a concentration spell at third level is still solid.
Again, shoot a crossbow for most of the day is normal for many classes at that level. It doesn't matter what those spell slots get spent on for that to be true.
Well itst a bit of topic of Infusions for Alchemists.. But.
I do think they should kick up the "Random elixir" which I always fluff as being made from my left over scraps and bobs and ends and weird things I collect while walking around, mixing new things with rando mcrap to produce effects.
But, they should really get INT free Elixiers, renewed on short rest. Why would that be terribly different than Warlock short rest renewel? Seems f air as they're random. Also a lot of them are purely utility (flight speed at 10ft is really not for combat, its for bypassing troubles).
Toss in some sort of scaling for the spell to elixer conversion as well. Even if its simply "double up properties" to some degree. Sure that could result in stonking AC bonus for 10 min at lv 17+ that costs your only (or one of 2) lv 5 spell slots you had. So realistically I think that even if each level multiplied the original effect, it would balance out compared to thet scale of levels and spell slots. Even giving out +2AC usuing all your lv 2 slots at high level would be useful for the right momentt.
Just those two changes would make elixirs extremely appealing-Both as a support minded alchemist and as a gap filler alchemist.
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Also. I think they should probably get the ability to use Items as a Bonus Action. They have no real use for bonus actions outside of VERY limited healing words.
Meanwhile.. Rogue gets Fast Hands.
and now In UA, Fighter's combat style gives "Snipe" which lets them throw weapon attack as a bonus action.
Which would be perfect for Alchemist to gain, to throw Alchemical Items via.
Throw in a new infusion that lets them create X amount of free Alchemist fire/Acids/oils/Stickybombs/Bombs like the alchemcal jug, and you'd have a whole interesting and neat combat style
Hot take: Alchemist subclass was probably designed with a full caster in mind, by a designer that forgot artificer was a half caster.
It is kind of hilarious that if you want to be an alchemist for the healing, you're better off being a cleric of knowledge. You get more skills and proficiency any tools. It's only an hour but its something better then alchemist.
I rather like Alchemist for Mid Range gap filler. who does a little of every combat style..
Though doesn't excel in any given way much. Which can be an issue..
But I've got a Punching +Shield+Cantrip Alchemist that kind of fills or suppliments roles in combat. Its fun.
Undeniably though I don't have nearly enough elixir or slots to signifincantly alter anything.
Based of Roll Caskett from Megaman Legends.
Has a lot of fun with Alch fire or Acids, mostly acid though because free if one has the time for it.
Really did need the Healer feat.
Invest so much in flask.. Enough so I wish there was a magic item that created free flasks daily haha.
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on the topic of the thread infusions for alchemists.
Best I can find is just standard "up your defense" and "use the extra slot (lv 1-5) on powering up an ally, or switching between magical items as needed" Which is perfume, goggles of night, and alchemy jug. 'cause i like stocking up on acids and oils to suppliment things. or goggles forthe scout or for me.
off combat days (or at least we think its off combat day). perfume and jug. build my stocks, and help any conversations.
battle armour + goggles.
wand of secret I keep wanting to use, but 3 shots a day feels quite hard to time. Will buy one if I get a chance though.
May switch out for Moonblade or +1 melee weapon for an ally though
Alchemists don't have any Infusion of their own honestly..
but that does let them use their infusions for much more variety than the other two-who tend to require all or almost all their infusions to gain their battle readiness.
How is knowledge cleric better than expertise in tools? Tools can be trained in downtime and it's easy to have proficiency in half a dozen without downtime training. Meanwhile, the knowledge cleric casts a healing word for d4+INTmod and the alchemist artificer casts healing word for d4+INTmod+INTmod using alchemist supplies as a focus. The bonus is added twice for the alchemist -- once because that the spell's base and again for the 5th level ability.
The alchemist has a better bonus to the tool checks and healing spells than the cleric in your comparison. ;)
The subclass simply has more versatility (elixir's) and healing (other abilities) than the other subclasses. At third level the alchemist has a selection from 4 spells prepped and 6 potions on which to spend those spell slots. That's up there with clerics having 10 spells prepped including domains. Alchemists effectively end up with 31 spells prepped because of it and a lot of restorations, plus the 6 infusions.
Keeping on topic, the other two subclasses use infusions to help their combat with the enhancement lines. Alchemist don't have that but they do have boldness and resilience elixirs to use instead for better effectiveness anyway. The subclass turned out to play better than it looks.
There are other subclasses that trade damage vs utility. Having flying on the fly or movespeed can prove really useful. Healing word and flaming sphere are hidden uses of their bonus actions to keep up a bit at higher levels.
Onky things that leave a bad taste is that 1 use of a random potion vs a free one hour long heavy extra damage feels a bit bad. I feel that if a second level spell could at least enhance the potions in any way. Make it last twice as long etc.
It would alao be nice if you would get your random potion back on a short rest.
But after looking at it for a while, flying at level 3 can prevent more damage than anything the other subclasses can bring to the table.
"But after looking at it for a while, flying at level 3 can prevent more damage than anything the other subclasses can bring to the table. "
(sorry I can't sem tot parse the quote boxes to just this line)
I mean its super useful, but less usueful in combat at 10ft. Its great for bypassing some things. I would say though that while it prevents 1 person really, unless you use your entire day of slots, it'll be only one person. Which can be very good for say a wizard or other weaker caster.
but at the same time, I feel like its stronger use would be in World Utility situations, or at least thats where I find more value in it. But I tend to see enough long ranged enemies that flying won't be that inherently safe I guess.
Yep, as I said before, I do really wish they got more random extract and replenished on a short rest like a Warlock.
honestly dipping warlock is inherently quite compelling for an Artificer. (As is Rogue theif)
Really though. I would like an Alchemist to get both ofo those features hardbaked in class. Restoring free extracts, and use item as bonus action.
I didn´t speak about combat too. I spoke about circumventing combat by gong different routes which are usually blocked to 3rd level characters.
I personally think that the wand, rod, staff arcane focuses are given to Artillerist, even though it is not explicitly stated. I also changed The Right Tool For the Job abilities to require Thieve's OR Tinker's Tools, which fixes all the subclass' abilities. That kinda "fixes" the issues I have seen with it. About half of the issues seem to be weird wording errors, otherwise, the rules are kinda weird.
The short rest recharge idea sounds good...
If we're altering wording. I think Ehanced Arcane Focus shouldn't be restricted to wand/staff/rod. It should also include the Tool Sets that the artificer can use as a focus... sure it mostly only comes up with Alchemist-who requires the tools in specific to gain their bonus damage (where as artilirist can use their firearm which can stack with the EAF or a normal magical wand).
Alchemist can't actually use EAF if they want Int to heal/damage I believe.. as they're both required to use a specific focus and you can not overlap them.