Having now played an alchemist to 9th level. I can say the best thing I did for in combat for all 9 levels was to cast Faerie Fire.
Standard campaign so no downtime to actually build anything. Combat support I was useless, the group had a paladin and a bard. I basically cast faerie fire and ran and hid. Occasionally I'd cast grease. Damage output was bad (cantrip, spells or weapon), support was bad and not needed due to the group having a bard and a paladin. When I went melee, I'd invariably drop to 0 HP quickly or run away after 1 or 2 hits (usually at less than 1/2 HP). Either option was very frustrating.
I initially picked Alchemy Jug as an infusion thinking it may be useful, especially being an alchemist, but only got to use it once. The DM did let me cheese it and sell vials of acid so I'd have enough gold to buy the crystal needed for a Homunculus Servant. Which turned out to be pointless as I ended up using Mind Sharpener for con saves, I tried a few other options for the 2nd infusion, some for me some to equip party members, (+1 Shield/armor, repeating crossbow, goggles of night, rope of climbing). Then finally Boots of the Winding Path at 6th level to give me additional run away options.
Not being able to switch infusion when needed, or at least on a short rest is annoying. I'd like to have say 2 options available and the infuse at some point during the day when you know what is needed. Especially since you're limited to such a small number and infusions known can only change at level up, which is also frustrating.
One other note: All the experimental elixirs were garbage. There wasn't a single time out of 9 levels that they mattered at all, and certainly no point where they were worth a spell slot.
Faerie Fire regularly is a strong contribution to combat because of the group multiplier effect.
First question is, "why would you melee?" Cantrips add INT mod to damage (making them better than cantrip damage for other spell casters) and are ranged. Melee doesn't make sense unless you want to deliver touch spells.
Second question is, "why would you drop to 0 hp fast?" D8 hp is the standard for most classes and artificers start with better armor than many classes, plus infusions make it easy to build a high AC early.
You've essentially claimed you didn't need to use healing because you have a bard and a paladin, then claimed you needed healing because of damage and fled, and missed the part where your healing spells heal more individual damage than the paladin and the bard is limited by spells known and doesn't have that better healing bonus.
Alchemy jug isn't great outside of flavor, but again why would you need to run away? Your alchemist has the same hit die as the bard and better armor proficiencies than most bard colleges. The paladin armor proficiencies are only a point of AC better (but not needing DEX investment) and at 9th level the paladin has 10 more hp based on the hit die (ie the artificer has 48 hp and the paladin has 58 hp before either applies CON bonus and the paladin is more MAD).
Changing infusions used can be changed daily. Your alchemist knew 6 infusions and could infuse 3 items. If you continuously had mind sharpener and boots of the winding path then you were only giving one out to the party to help.
Mind sharpener was a good choice because you were using faerie fire but boots of the winding path was wasted because it only lets the character teleport 15 ft to a space in which the character already occupied during that turn. It's essentially a bonus action to back track a partial move. Your alchemist could have used radiant weapon instead so the paladin could blind opponents with it. That helps reduce incoming damage and might save a spell slot being used for faerie fire. That also opens up the alchemist's bonus action to make use of flaming sphere or for damage in addition to cantrips. It's also possible to make use of the homunculus infusion.
The alchemist's spell options for damage at low level include faerie fire, Tasha's caustic brew, and flaming sphere. They all take concentration and after casting them add to damage on top of cantrip slinging. Make the best choice for the situation.
Let's look at that elixirs that "were garbage".
Healing: Look back at your post. You claimed you were taking damage. The healing elixir isn't worth the spell slot once alchemical savant becomes available but then becomes worth it again for the temp hp later on with restorative reagents. The gap in between don't spend the slot on the spell but I have to ask, "If you are taking damage how does rolling this as a free elixir not help?"
Swiftness: Look back at your post. You claimed you need to spend your bonus action to run away with 15 ft of extra movement so I have to ask, "If you need extra movement to run away then how is extra movement not helping?" If you don't think it's worth the slot then don't spend the slot but for a random roll you can definitely use the bonus.
Resilience: Look back at your post. You claimed you were taking damage. Stacking 1 more AC matters about 1 attack out of 20 but stacking as many as you can adds up. I have to ask, "If you are concerned about taking damage then how is more AC to mitigate it not helping?"
Boldness: Look back at your post. You claimed your only contribution was faerie fire, which increase attack accuracy. This is a stackable non-concentration bonus. I have to ask, "If your contribution was accuracy then how does more accuracy not help?"
Flight: Look back at your post. You claimed you needed to run away. Flight mitigates damage or getting attacked from many types of opponents. It can also bypass environmental challenges. Since this elixir does not cost the character's concentration to fly it's one a limited number of ways to contribute concentration spells such as the faerie fire you stated you were using concentration from potential safety. Flying is often referenced as an advantage for spell casters so, "How does granting flying without requiring concentration not helpful?" This elixir is definitely worth a 1st level spell slot.
Transformation: This is the only elixir that might randomly roll and not have a use for the day. It's very useful when it is needed, however, for the water breathing or disguise benefits. It might not be useful when randomly rolled but it's very much worth the 1st level spell slot when it comes up.
Boldness: Look back at your post. You claimed your only contribution was faerie fire, which increase attack accuracy. This is a stackable non-concentration bonus. I have to ask, "If your contribution was accuracy then how does more accuracy not help?"
My guess (from what I remember of previous arguments) is you mean that it stacks with bless because it's a similar feature with a different name. Which, while accurate, feels misleading because you seem to be advertising it as a special feature of the Experimental Elixir which it simply isn't. It's just a standard feature of how the game works when you have differently named features that grant similar effects. Because, by the very same logic, the emboldening bond feature of the peace domain cleric also stacks with bless.
Boldness: Look back at your post. You claimed your only contribution was faerie fire, which increase attack accuracy. This is a stackable non-concentration bonus. I have to ask, "If your contribution was accuracy then how does more accuracy not help?"
Boldness: Look back at your post. You claimed your only contribution was faerie fire, which increase attack accuracy. This is a stackable non-concentration bonus. I have to ask, "If your contribution was accuracy then how does more accuracy not help?"
Hjalmar Gunderson, Vuman Alchemist Plague Doctor in a HB Campaign, Post Netherese Invasion Cormyr (lvl20 retired) Godfrey, Autognome Butler in Ghosts of Saltmarsh into Spelljammer Grímr Skeggisson, Goliath Rune Knight in Rime of the Frostmaiden DM of two HB campaigns set in the same world.
Boldness: Look back at your post. You claimed your only contribution was faerie fire, which increase attack accuracy. This is a stackable non-concentration bonus. I have to ask, "If your contribution was accuracy then how does more accuracy not help?"
Stackable with other buffs to build bigger numbers because of the lack of concentration requirement.
Unless I've missed the point of the convo, Faerie Fireis concentration.
You definitely missed the point, lol. The boldness elixir is not concentration and therefore can be stacked with other accuracy enhancing spells like bless or faerie fire.
Heh heh! Many apologies! I only read a few comments back haha nevermind, carry on, move along, as you were!
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Hjalmar Gunderson, Vuman Alchemist Plague Doctor in a HB Campaign, Post Netherese Invasion Cormyr (lvl20 retired) Godfrey, Autognome Butler in Ghosts of Saltmarsh into Spelljammer Grímr Skeggisson, Goliath Rune Knight in Rime of the Frostmaiden DM of two HB campaigns set in the same world.
I tend to think of alchemist as a combat catalyst; supporting the other PCs. He's already give out a bunch of cool infusions and perhaps a boldness elixir or two. Once he's in combat he spends his time casting faerie fire or web and throws out acid splashes.
I see him as supporting the other PCs thought things like flash of genius and buff/debuff spells. I'd much rather cast haste on a Barbarian I've given an enhanced weapon infusion to (and then hide) than to try and be the star of combat
Having now played an alchemist to 9th level. I can say the best thing I did for in combat for all 9 levels was to cast Faerie Fire.
Standard campaign so no downtime to actually build anything. Combat support I was useless, the group had a paladin and a bard. I basically cast faerie fire and ran and hid. Occasionally I'd cast grease. Damage output was bad (cantrip, spells or weapon), support was bad and not needed due to the group having a bard and a paladin. When I went melee, I'd invariably drop to 0 HP quickly or run away after 1 or 2 hits (usually at less than 1/2 HP). Either option was very frustrating.
I initially picked Alchemy Jug as an infusion thinking it may be useful, especially being an alchemist, but only got to use it once. The DM did let me cheese it and sell vials of acid so I'd have enough gold to buy the crystal needed for a Homunculus Servant. Which turned out to be pointless as I ended up using Mind Sharpener for con saves, I tried a few other options for the 2nd infusion, some for me some to equip party members, (+1 Shield/armor, repeating crossbow, goggles of night, rope of climbing). Then finally Boots of the Winding Path at 6th level to give me additional run away options.
Not being able to switch infusion when needed, or at least on a short rest is annoying. I'd like to have say 2 options available and the infuse at some point during the day when you know what is needed. Especially since you're limited to such a small number and infusions known can only change at level up, which is also frustrating.
One other note: All the experimental elixirs were garbage. There wasn't a single time out of 9 levels that they mattered at all, and certainly no point where they were worth a spell slot.
Faerie Fire regularly is a strong contribution to combat because of the group multiplier effect.
First question is, "why would you melee?" Cantrips add INT mod to damage (making them better than cantrip damage for other spell casters) and are ranged. Melee doesn't make sense unless you want to deliver touch spells.
Second question is, "why would you drop to 0 hp fast?" D8 hp is the standard for most classes and artificers start with better armor than many classes, plus infusions make it easy to build a high AC early.
You've essentially claimed you didn't need to use healing because you have a bard and a paladin, then claimed you needed healing because of damage and fled, and missed the part where your healing spells heal more individual damage than the paladin and the bard is limited by spells known and doesn't have that better healing bonus.
Alchemy jug isn't great outside of flavor, but again why would you need to run away? Your alchemist has the same hit die as the bard and better armor proficiencies than most bard colleges. The paladin armor proficiencies are only a point of AC better (but not needing DEX investment) and at 9th level the paladin has 10 more hp based on the hit die (ie the artificer has 48 hp and the paladin has 58 hp before either applies CON bonus and the paladin is more MAD).
Changing infusions used can be changed daily. Your alchemist knew 6 infusions and could infuse 3 items. If you continuously had mind sharpener and boots of the winding path then you were only giving one out to the party to help.
Mind sharpener was a good choice because you were using faerie fire but boots of the winding path was wasted because it only lets the character teleport 15 ft to a space in which the character already occupied during that turn. It's essentially a bonus action to back track a partial move. Your alchemist could have used radiant weapon instead so the paladin could blind opponents with it. That helps reduce incoming damage and might save a spell slot being used for faerie fire. That also opens up the alchemist's bonus action to make use of flaming sphere or for damage in addition to cantrips. It's also possible to make use of the homunculus infusion.
The alchemist's spell options for damage at low level include faerie fire, Tasha's caustic brew, and flaming sphere. They all take concentration and after casting them add to damage on top of cantrip slinging. Make the best choice for the situation.
Let's look at that elixirs that "were garbage".
Healing: Look back at your post. You claimed you were taking damage. The healing elixir isn't worth the spell slot once alchemical savant becomes available but then becomes worth it again for the temp hp later on with restorative reagents. The gap in between don't spend the slot on the spell but I have to ask, "If you are taking damage how does rolling this as a free elixir not help?"
Swiftness: Look back at your post. You claimed you need to spend your bonus action to run away with 15 ft of extra movement so I have to ask, "If you need extra movement to run away then how is extra movement not helping?" If you don't think it's worth the slot then don't spend the slot but for a random roll you can definitely use the bonus.
Resilience: Look back at your post. You claimed you were taking damage. Stacking 1 more AC matters about 1 attack out of 20 but stacking as many as you can adds up. I have to ask, "If you are concerned about taking damage then how is more AC to mitigate it not helping?"
Boldness: Look back at your post. You claimed your only contribution was faerie fire, which increase attack accuracy. This is a stackable non-concentration bonus. I have to ask, "If your contribution was accuracy then how does more accuracy not help?"
Flight: Look back at your post. You claimed you needed to run away. Flight mitigates damage or getting attacked from many types of opponents. It can also bypass environmental challenges. Since this elixir does not cost the character's concentration to fly it's one a limited number of ways to contribute concentration spells such as the faerie fire you stated you were using concentration from potential safety. Flying is often referenced as an advantage for spell casters so, "How does granting flying without requiring concentration not helpful?" This elixir is definitely worth a 1st level spell slot.
Transformation: This is the only elixir that might randomly roll and not have a use for the day. It's very useful when it is needed, however, for the water breathing or disguise benefits. It might not be useful when randomly rolled but it's very much worth the 1st level spell slot when it comes up.
I don't see your argument when I play.
I was in melee because the group consisted of a paladin (melee) a rogue (hiding), a bard (always at the back) and an multi fighter(archer)/rogue (2 level for bonus action hide). So more often than not, when combat started I was in melee, and not from running into it.
I’d drop because I had a lower AC than the paladin (especially if they cast shield of faith. And I’d drop because I’d be taking half the attacks the first round. Now if we actually got to setup or prepare an ambush we could mow through enemies.
I said I never used healing on others, which is what a support character would normally do. Instead I used almost all my healing on myself (I didn’t heal often) to stay up and still went down numerous times with the bard healing me.
As for the other reasons I kept going down, its called focused fire and random dice rolls. The paladin would be hurting and could dump healing touch into himself or the bard would buff us all.
I didn’t settle on boots of the winding patch till almost the end. I did give out magic items, I ran through a number of combinations for myself and others. But ultimately why use an infusion for a radiant weapon when the paladin already had a magic sword? The archer used a magic longbow and didn’t want a repeating crossbow (although they did like the goggles of night), the rogue got boots of elvenkind but with expertise in stealth, its nice but not needed.
I used all three of those attack spells at various times. I’m very disappointed in Tasha's caustic brew since it deals damage at the beginning of the target’s turn, not when cast. There were actually 2 situation where I cast it and dealt no damage at all because of missed con saves, which is why I switched to the mind sharpener.
Now for the experimental elixirs:
Again, these are part of what defines the alchemist. They are random and don’t scale. The temp-hp at higher levels are nice mechanically but have absolutely nothing to do with the sub-classes theme. Here have a floating potion and get some temp HP, move a bit faster and temp HP. Why?
Healing – yep, nice post combat potion. Same issue with any potion of healing, you spend your entire action to heal a small amount of HP, sure it’s more than a standard potion of healing starting at 5 level, but not worth an action in combat.
Swiftness – one of the few I don’t have an issue with, except its random. You’re supposed to be a trained alchemist.
Boldness, resilience – the same issues as all those potions, look at how long combat usually lasts and then decide on giving up a full action for getting a slight buff. Try giving the smite happy paladin a potion of boldness and then have him use it instead of smiting on that first round. Same with any of the other classes, generally it is better to focus on what your class does well than spend an action for a slight increase.
Flight – (for some reason I tended to roll this) Its very slow, a short duration and if you could fly into a combat it may be worth it but taking it (generally while already in melee) and trying to fly doesn’t work out against most tier 2 enemies. It helped us get over a wall – once.
Transformation – never had a use for it. I suppose if you were desperate at tier 1 and didn’t have a magic weapon you could use the natural weapon, but by the time a group is tier 2 you can assume everyone has a magical attack.
There are situation where some of the elixirs would be useful, but being random pretty much guarantees you’re going to be spending a spell slot. Artificers already don’t have may spell slots and instead of being able to use them as spells, the game is forcing them to spend them to use a bad class feature.
Having now played an alchemist to 9th level. I can say the best thing I did for in combat for all 9 levels was to cast Faerie Fire.
Standard campaign so no downtime to actually build anything. Combat support I was useless, the group had a paladin and a bard. I basically cast faerie fire and ran and hid. Occasionally I'd cast grease. Damage output was bad (cantrip, spells or weapon), support was bad and not needed due to the group having a bard and a paladin. When I went melee, I'd invariably drop to 0 HP quickly or run away after 1 or 2 hits (usually at less than 1/2 HP). Either option was very frustrating.
I initially picked Alchemy Jug as an infusion thinking it may be useful, especially being an alchemist, but only got to use it once. The DM did let me cheese it and sell vials of acid so I'd have enough gold to buy the crystal needed for a Homunculus Servant. Which turned out to be pointless as I ended up using Mind Sharpener for con saves, I tried a few other options for the 2nd infusion, some for me some to equip party members, (+1 Shield/armor, repeating crossbow, goggles of night, rope of climbing). Then finally Boots of the Winding Path at 6th level to give me additional run away options.
Not being able to switch infusion when needed, or at least on a short rest is annoying. I'd like to have say 2 options available and the infuse at some point during the day when you know what is needed. Especially since you're limited to such a small number and infusions known can only change at level up, which is also frustrating.
One other note: All the experimental elixirs were garbage. There wasn't a single time out of 9 levels that they mattered at all, and certainly no point where they were worth a spell slot.
Faerie Fire regularly is a strong contribution to combat because of the group multiplier effect.
First question is, "why would you melee?" Cantrips add INT mod to damage (making them better than cantrip damage for other spell casters) and are ranged. Melee doesn't make sense unless you want to deliver touch spells.
Second question is, "why would you drop to 0 hp fast?" D8 hp is the standard for most classes and artificers start with better armor than many classes, plus infusions make it easy to build a high AC early.
You've essentially claimed you didn't need to use healing because you have a bard and a paladin, then claimed you needed healing because of damage and fled, and missed the part where your healing spells heal more individual damage than the paladin and the bard is limited by spells known and doesn't have that better healing bonus.
Alchemy jug isn't great outside of flavor, but again why would you need to run away? Your alchemist has the same hit die as the bard and better armor proficiencies than most bard colleges. The paladin armor proficiencies are only a point of AC better (but not needing DEX investment) and at 9th level the paladin has 10 more hp based on the hit die (ie the artificer has 48 hp and the paladin has 58 hp before either applies CON bonus and the paladin is more MAD).
Changing infusions used can be changed daily. Your alchemist knew 6 infusions and could infuse 3 items. If you continuously had mind sharpener and boots of the winding path then you were only giving one out to the party to help.
Mind sharpener was a good choice because you were using faerie fire but boots of the winding path was wasted because it only lets the character teleport 15 ft to a space in which the character already occupied during that turn. It's essentially a bonus action to back track a partial move. Your alchemist could have used radiant weapon instead so the paladin could blind opponents with it. That helps reduce incoming damage and might save a spell slot being used for faerie fire. That also opens up the alchemist's bonus action to make use of flaming sphere or for damage in addition to cantrips. It's also possible to make use of the homunculus infusion.
The alchemist's spell options for damage at low level include faerie fire, Tasha's caustic brew, and flaming sphere. They all take concentration and after casting them add to damage on top of cantrip slinging. Make the best choice for the situation.
Let's look at that elixirs that "were garbage".
Healing: Look back at your post. You claimed you were taking damage. The healing elixir isn't worth the spell slot once alchemical savant becomes available but then becomes worth it again for the temp hp later on with restorative reagents. The gap in between don't spend the slot on the spell but I have to ask, "If you are taking damage how does rolling this as a free elixir not help?"
Swiftness: Look back at your post. You claimed you need to spend your bonus action to run away with 15 ft of extra movement so I have to ask, "If you need extra movement to run away then how is extra movement not helping?" If you don't think it's worth the slot then don't spend the slot but for a random roll you can definitely use the bonus.
Resilience: Look back at your post. You claimed you were taking damage. Stacking 1 more AC matters about 1 attack out of 20 but stacking as many as you can adds up. I have to ask, "If you are concerned about taking damage then how is more AC to mitigate it not helping?"
Boldness: Look back at your post. You claimed your only contribution was faerie fire, which increase attack accuracy. This is a stackable non-concentration bonus. I have to ask, "If your contribution was accuracy then how does more accuracy not help?"
Flight: Look back at your post. You claimed you needed to run away. Flight mitigates damage or getting attacked from many types of opponents. It can also bypass environmental challenges. Since this elixir does not cost the character's concentration to fly it's one a limited number of ways to contribute concentration spells such as the faerie fire you stated you were using concentration from potential safety. Flying is often referenced as an advantage for spell casters so, "How does granting flying without requiring concentration not helpful?" This elixir is definitely worth a 1st level spell slot.
Transformation: This is the only elixir that might randomly roll and not have a use for the day. It's very useful when it is needed, however, for the water breathing or disguise benefits. It might not be useful when randomly rolled but it's very much worth the 1st level spell slot when it comes up.
I don't see your argument when I play.
I was in melee because the group consisted of a paladin (melee) a rogue (hiding), a bard (always at the back) and an multi fighter(archer)/rogue (2 level for bonus action hide). So more often than not, when combat started I was in melee, and not from running into it.
If encounters are already starting with you in melee then the encounter distance and determining surprise rules aren't being followed. That's not a class issue and would impact all classes or subclasses equally. There doesn't seem to be any reason your character would have started in melee but not the other characters.
But if that's the case then it's okay to use infusions on yourself to boost your AC. The bottom line here is your AC is going to be better than those other PC's with the exception of the paladin depending that build and hit points are going to be about the same as almost every PC.
I’d drop because I had a lower AC than the paladin (especially if they cast shield of faith. And I’d drop because I’d be taking half the attacks the first round. Now if we actually got to setup or prepare an ambush we could mow through enemies.
Why would you have a significantly lower AC than the paladin? Starting equipment is chainmail for the paladin and may or may not include a shield while starting equipment for an artificer is scale mail, which makes the same AC with the DEX bonus and artificers can use shields too. A shield isn't hard to pick up for the same AC.
The paladin would need to acquire expensive full plate and/or use the fighting style for a small bonus.
Shield of Faith could have been cast on your alchemist. It's a bonus the paladin creates but not restricted to the paladin. If the paladin isn't buffing you then don't buff the paladin. As far as being a caster goes, the paladin learns spells at the same rate and has the same spell slot progression aside from 1st level. And if you used one of those infusions for an AC bonus plus the resilience elixir you have the same +2 AC bonus but without the concentration requirement for the same spell slot cost.
I can give AC to a paladin, but I can do a good job of that with an alchemist too.
I said I never used healing on others, which is what a support character would normally do. Instead I used almost all my healing on myself (I didn’t heal often) to stay up and still went down numerous times with the bard healing me.
Your AC and hit point gap still don't make sense. Artificers have good AC and the hit point difference is 1+1/lvl.
Go back and look at your post again.
Standard campaign so no downtime to actually build anything. Combat support I was useless, the group had a paladin and a bard. I basically cast faerie fire and ran and hid. Occasionally I'd cast grease. Damage output was bad (cantrip, spells or weapon), support was bad and not needed due to the group having a bard and a paladin.
You first claimed to be spending most combats casting faerie fire and hiding. You claimed support was useless because of the paladin and bard.
If a character is spending most combats one faerie fire and hiding then the character isn't spending those slots and actions on healing or vice versa. If the bard is spending slots and actions on healing the bard is not spending those slots and actions on support. Action economy comes into play.
This looks like back pedaling, but I would ask why you think you would not have gone down under the same conditions with another artificer subclass or another class? Not many options are giving you similar AC and most of them have the same hit points.
Here is a tip on spell management if you are working support: spend a slot on sanctuary as part of the sequence. Sanctuary reduces your incoming damage because of the required saving throw before attacking and it's cast as a bonus action and it doesn't require concentration. That will save you more damage than shield of faith will. Then you can support more safely, even when the battle keeps starting with you in melee but not other characters for some reason. ;-)
As for the other reasons I kept going down, its called focused fire and random dice rolls. The paladin would be hurting and could dump healing touch into himself or the bard would buff us all.
The paladin healing or the bard buffing doesn't negatively impact alchemists. It helps stretch out those resources more because more PC's are healing in campaign where a lot of healing is needed. The alchemist having more healing in such a campaign is helping.
Random dice rolls is not a class or subclass specific issue and cannot justify a class or subclass as an issue.
Focused fire is not a class or subclass specific issue and cannot justify a class or subclass as an issue.
Question why fire is focused your way and address the root cause if you can. if not, got back to my tip above of casting sanctuary because then the focused fire won't be on you.
I didn’t settle on boots of the winding patch till almost the end. I did give out magic items, I ran through a number of combinations for myself and others. But ultimately why use an infusion for a radiant weapon when the paladin already had a magic sword? The archer used a magic longbow and didn’t want a repeating crossbow (although they did like the goggles of night), the rogue got boots of elvenkind but with expertise in stealth, its nice but not needed.
Radiant weapon creates blindness in the example given, but there are other options like increasing your own AC with repulsion shield instead. Boot of the winding path are a poor choice if escape is the goal for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post.
I used all three of those attack spells at various times. I’m very disappointed in Tasha's caustic brew since it deals damage at the beginning of the target’s turn, not when cast. There were actually 2 situation where I cast it and dealt no damage at all because of missed con saves, which is why I switched to the mind sharpener.
Tasha's caustic brew is good because you can hit multiple targets with it for a DOT, but if you're failing concentration saves then that would have happened with faerie fire too. I find this interesting because your alchemist would be the only PC in the party with CON save proficiency who casts spells. Paladins and bards are not proficient in that save and would also be failing those concentration saves but don't have the advantage of mind sharpener.
That fact that the alchemist has that save proficiency and an infusion option to prevent losing concentration is an advantage, not a disadvantage compared to other classes.
You can also stack DOT damage with create bonfire instead of using a spell slot but I don't normally go that route because of limited number of cantrips compared to prepared spells options.
Now for the experimental elixirs:
Again, these are part of what defines the alchemist. They are random and don’t scale. The temp-hp at higher levels are nice mechanically but have absolutely nothing to do with the sub-classes theme. Here have a floating potion and get some temp HP, move a bit faster and temp HP. Why?
It's a healing subclass and temporary hit points are thematic for support healing for a lot of classes these days. Thp are a benefit in proactively preventing damage before it occurs as opposed to reactively healing. It's an advantage and if you think it's not thematic that doesn't mechanically hinder the class or subclass. It's aesthetics.
Healing – yep, nice post combat potion. Same issue with any potion of healing, you spend your entire action to heal a small amount of HP, sure it’s more than a standard potion of healing starting at 5 level, but not worth an action in combat.
How much healing do you think a 1st level spell slot heals someone when another class uses it? That paladin or bard using a 1st level spell slot for cure wounds is going to heal 1d8+mod while the elixir heals 2d4+mod+(2d6+mod)thp. That's a better minimum and better average than cure wounds even at 3rd level for the same action. A potion of healing heals 2d4+2 and also takes an action to use or administer.
Alchemists add their ability modifier to cure wounds a second time when using alchemical supplies as a focus starting at 5th level so that same action cost and spell slot heal 1d8+2*mod, but since all alchemists know healing word 1d4+2*mod is better than 1d8+mod from your other casters, uses a bonus action instead of an action, and the better elixirs later on can be used out of combat instead of in combat.
Most healing should be done out of combat for efficiency options. In the case of the healing elixir that 1st level slot will heal 10 hp (avg) and give 12 thp (avg) compared to the cure wound with the same resources where the paladin is likely 1d8+3 (7hp) or the bard is likely 1d8+5 (9 hp) on average. The alchemist is far better off for that 1st level slot to use the elixir. And, if the elixir already available then the alchemist can spend a bonus action for it if they have a homunculus who then administers the elixir with it's action.
For comparison, that same slot used by the alchemist for cure wounds heals 14hp and healing word heals 12hp on average.
The elixir can also affect undead and constructs, which cure wounds specifically prohibits for a situational benefit. This is relevant with the homunculus servant if it comes up.
The advantage the bard has is gaining access to higher level spells faster and song of rest is good. Song of rest is directly impacted by number of rests and hit die expenditure. The advantage the paladin has is lay on hands can give a bigger one shot. The bonus from alchemical savant passes the paladin's lay on hands total with number of slots per day. For example, LOH provides 25 hp in healing at 5th level and alchemical savant adds 24 hp in healing with 18 INT through 6 spell slots. At 9th level LOH adds 45 hp healing and alchemical savant adds the same 45 through slots and restorative reagents is adding an addition 10 thp with 20 INT.
It's not concentrated but the ability is there, and it seems silly to not spend that 1st level slot on an elixir over casting a spell. The whole healing thing in comparison isn't a struggle with alchemists.
Swiftness – one of the few I don’t have an issue with, except its random. You’re supposed to be a trained alchemist.
It's not random. The alchemist can replicate it at will. The daily experiments are random. The question is whether it's worth the spell slot. ;-)
Boldness, resilience – the same issues as all those potions, look at how long combat usually lasts and then decide on giving up a full action for getting a slight buff. Try giving the smite happy paladin a potion of boldness and then have him use it instead of smiting on that first round. Same with any of the other classes, generally it is better to focus on what your class does well than spend an action for a slight increase.
The time to drink these is when the group knows they are going into fight usually. They last long enough to complete the battle if taken and then fighting starts. Another good time to take them is when opponents are closing. That gets back to initiative, surprise, and encounter distance rules. All fights shouldn't be starting in melee.
Numerous small increases is how we add up to bigger increases. My alchemist would pop these with the extra haste action to use an item.
Flight – (for some reason I tended to roll this) Its very slow, a short duration and if you could fly into a combat it may be worth it but taking it (generally while already in melee) and trying to fly doesn’t work out against most tier 2 enemies. It helped us get over a wall – once.
Define "most tier 2 enemies" because it lasts as long as the regular fly spell, uses the same action economy as the fly spell, but doesn't require a 3rd level slot or concentration like the fly spell. This gets back to my haste example.
The flight elixir grants a 10' flight speed while the haste spell doubles that and both can be used together because the elixir has no concentration requirement. That changes the base speed to 20' and the extra action can be used to dash so the flight speed is 40' of movement using it that way.
These elixirs don't exist in a vacuum.
I found 10 minutes of flight for a 1st level slot useful. That's 2000' of flight movement by itself by spending movement and dash action.
Levitate is only 20' per turn as well and also costs concentration as another example of something spell casters are often claimed as having a significant advantage over certain types of opponents.
Transformation – never had a use for it. I suppose if you were desperate at tier 1 and didn’t have a magic weapon you could use the natural weapon, but by the time a group is tier 2 you can assume everyone has a magical attack.
Maybe you should try using it? ;-)
Alter self can be used for a magic weapon in a pinch but it's a cheap source of water breathing and swim speed from the aquatic adaptation. It a quick disguise in chase scenes, social encounters, or infiltration as examples. Do you always just fight?
There are situation where some of the elixirs would be useful, but being random pretty much guarantees you’re going to be spending a spell slot. Artificers already don’t have may spell slots and instead of being able to use them as spells, the game is forcing them to spend them to use a bad class feature.
Random doesn't mean that at all. The alchemist only spends a spell slot when it makes sense to spend a spell slot.
What you just said doesn't make any sense because the game doesn't force the player to do that at all. Players decide when to spend spell slots on what and an option in the elixirs that isn't desired at the time cannot force the player to do it anyway, and if the player does make that choice it's because that elixir was desirable at that time.
The only thing you've described is opportunity cost and that isn't necessarily class or subclass specific either. It's not different from casting a faerie fire and not having a slot for healing word later or vice versa. The lore bard gets nothing but more opportunity costs on which to spend the same resources (cutting words, extra secrets, peerless skill) other than some additional skill proficiencies and a lot of players call that good.
The only thing the elixirs do is grant additional options like knowing a few more 1st level equivalents spells and then getting a couple random freebies. More options doesn't hurt alchemists.
Having now played an alchemist to 9th level. I can say the best thing I did for in combat for all 9 levels was to cast Faerie Fire.
Standard campaign so no downtime to actually build anything. Combat support I was useless, the group had a paladin and a bard. I basically cast faerie fire and ran and hid. Occasionally I'd cast grease. Damage output was bad (cantrip, spells or weapon), support was bad and not needed due to the group having a bard and a paladin. When I went melee, I'd invariably drop to 0 HP quickly or run away after 1 or 2 hits (usually at less than 1/2 HP). Either option was very frustrating.
I initially picked Alchemy Jug as an infusion thinking it may be useful, especially being an alchemist, but only got to use it once. The DM did let me cheese it and sell vials of acid so I'd have enough gold to buy the crystal needed for a Homunculus Servant. Which turned out to be pointless as I ended up using Mind Sharpener for con saves, I tried a few other options for the 2nd infusion, some for me some to equip party members, (+1 Shield/armor, repeating crossbow, goggles of night, rope of climbing). Then finally Boots of the Winding Path at 6th level to give me additional run away options.
Not being able to switch infusion when needed, or at least on a short rest is annoying. I'd like to have say 2 options available and the infuse at some point during the day when you know what is needed. Especially since you're limited to such a small number and infusions known can only change at level up, which is also frustrating.
One other note: All the experimental elixirs were garbage. There wasn't a single time out of 9 levels that they mattered at all, and certainly no point where they were worth a spell slot.
Faerie Fire regularly is a strong contribution to combat because of the group multiplier effect.
First question is, "why would you melee?" Cantrips add INT mod to damage (making them better than cantrip damage for other spell casters) and are ranged. Melee doesn't make sense unless you want to deliver touch spells.
Second question is, "why would you drop to 0 hp fast?" D8 hp is the standard for most classes and artificers start with better armor than many classes, plus infusions make it easy to build a high AC early.
You've essentially claimed you didn't need to use healing because you have a bard and a paladin, then claimed you needed healing because of damage and fled, and missed the part where your healing spells heal more individual damage than the paladin and the bard is limited by spells known and doesn't have that better healing bonus.
Alchemy jug isn't great outside of flavor, but again why would you need to run away? Your alchemist has the same hit die as the bard and better armor proficiencies than most bard colleges. The paladin armor proficiencies are only a point of AC better (but not needing DEX investment) and at 9th level the paladin has 10 more hp based on the hit die (ie the artificer has 48 hp and the paladin has 58 hp before either applies CON bonus and the paladin is more MAD).
Changing infusions used can be changed daily. Your alchemist knew 6 infusions and could infuse 3 items. If you continuously had mind sharpener and boots of the winding path then you were only giving one out to the party to help.
Mind sharpener was a good choice because you were using faerie fire but boots of the winding path was wasted because it only lets the character teleport 15 ft to a space in which the character already occupied during that turn. It's essentially a bonus action to back track a partial move. Your alchemist could have used radiant weapon instead so the paladin could blind opponents with it. That helps reduce incoming damage and might save a spell slot being used for faerie fire. That also opens up the alchemist's bonus action to make use of flaming sphere or for damage in addition to cantrips. It's also possible to make use of the homunculus infusion.
The alchemist's spell options for damage at low level include faerie fire, Tasha's caustic brew, and flaming sphere. They all take concentration and after casting them add to damage on top of cantrip slinging. Make the best choice for the situation.
Let's look at that elixirs that "were garbage".
Healing: Look back at your post. You claimed you were taking damage. The healing elixir isn't worth the spell slot once alchemical savant becomes available but then becomes worth it again for the temp hp later on with restorative reagents. The gap in between don't spend the slot on the spell but I have to ask, "If you are taking damage how does rolling this as a free elixir not help?"
Swiftness: Look back at your post. You claimed you need to spend your bonus action to run away with 15 ft of extra movement so I have to ask, "If you need extra movement to run away then how is extra movement not helping?" If you don't think it's worth the slot then don't spend the slot but for a random roll you can definitely use the bonus.
Resilience: Look back at your post. You claimed you were taking damage. Stacking 1 more AC matters about 1 attack out of 20 but stacking as many as you can adds up. I have to ask, "If you are concerned about taking damage then how is more AC to mitigate it not helping?"
Boldness: Look back at your post. You claimed your only contribution was faerie fire, which increase attack accuracy. This is a stackable non-concentration bonus. I have to ask, "If your contribution was accuracy then how does more accuracy not help?"
Flight: Look back at your post. You claimed you needed to run away. Flight mitigates damage or getting attacked from many types of opponents. It can also bypass environmental challenges. Since this elixir does not cost the character's concentration to fly it's one a limited number of ways to contribute concentration spells such as the faerie fire you stated you were using concentration from potential safety. Flying is often referenced as an advantage for spell casters so, "How does granting flying without requiring concentration not helpful?" This elixir is definitely worth a 1st level spell slot.
Transformation: This is the only elixir that might randomly roll and not have a use for the day. It's very useful when it is needed, however, for the water breathing or disguise benefits. It might not be useful when randomly rolled but it's very much worth the 1st level spell slot when it comes up.
I don't see your argument when I play.
I was in melee because the group consisted of a paladin (melee) a rogue (hiding), a bard (always at the back) and an multi fighter(archer)/rogue (2 level for bonus action hide). So more often than not, when combat started I was in melee, and not from running into it.
If encounters are already starting with you in melee then the encounter distance and determining surprise rules aren't being followed. That's not a class issue and would impact all classes or subclasses equally. There doesn't seem to be any reason your character would have started in melee but not the other characters.
But if that's the case then it's okay to use infusions on yourself to boost your AC. The bottom line here is your AC is going to be better than those other PC's with the exception of the paladin depending that build and hit points are going to be about the same as almost every PC.
I’d drop because I had a lower AC than the paladin (especially if they cast shield of faith. And I’d drop because I’d be taking half the attacks the first round. Now if we actually got to setup or prepare an ambush we could mow through enemies.
Why would you have a significantly lower AC than the paladin? Starting equipment is chainmail for the paladin and may or may not include a shield while starting equipment for an artificer is scale mail, which makes the same AC with the DEX bonus and artificers can use shields too. A shield isn't hard to pick up for the same AC.
The paladin would need to acquire expensive full plate and/or use the fighting style for a small bonus.
Shield of Faith could have been cast on your alchemist. It's a bonus the paladin creates but not restricted to the paladin. If the paladin isn't buffing you then don't buff the paladin. As far as being a caster goes, the paladin learns spells at the same rate and has the same spell slot progression aside from 1st level. And if you used one of those infusions for an AC bonus plus the resilience elixir you have the same +2 AC bonus but without the concentration requirement for the same spell slot cost.
I can give AC to a paladin, but I can do a good job of that with an alchemist too.
I said I never used healing on others, which is what a support character would normally do. Instead I used almost all my healing on myself (I didn’t heal often) to stay up and still went down numerous times with the bard healing me.
Your AC and hit point gap still don't make sense. Artificers have good AC and the hit point difference is 1+1/lvl.
Go back and look at your post again.
Standard campaign so no downtime to actually build anything. Combat support I was useless, the group had a paladin and a bard. I basically cast faerie fire and ran and hid. Occasionally I'd cast grease. Damage output was bad (cantrip, spells or weapon), support was bad and not needed due to the group having a bard and a paladin.
You first claimed to be spending most combats casting faerie fire and hiding. You claimed support was useless because of the paladin and bard.
If a character is spending most combats one faerie fire and hiding then the character isn't spending those slots and actions on healing or vice versa. If the bard is spending slots and actions on healing the bard is not spending those slots and actions on support. Action economy comes into play.
This looks like back pedaling, but I would ask why you think you would not have gone down under the same conditions with another artificer subclass or another class? Not many options are giving you similar AC and most of them have the same hit points.
Here is a tip on spell management if you are working support: spend a slot on sanctuary as part of the sequence. Sanctuary reduces your incoming damage because of the required saving throw before attacking and it's cast as a bonus action and it doesn't require concentration. That will save you more damage than shield of faith will. Then you can support more safely, even when the battle keeps starting with you in melee but not other characters for some reason. ;-)
As for the other reasons I kept going down, its called focused fire and random dice rolls. The paladin would be hurting and could dump healing touch into himself or the bard would buff us all.
The paladin healing or the bard buffing doesn't negatively impact alchemists. It helps stretch out those resources more because more PC's are healing in campaign where a lot of healing is needed. The alchemist having more healing in such a campaign is helping.
Random dice rolls is not a class or subclass specific issue and cannot justify a class or subclass as an issue.
Focused fire is not a class or subclass specific issue and cannot justify a class or subclass as an issue.
Question why fire is focused your way and address the root cause if you can. if not, got back to my tip above of casting sanctuary because then the focused fire won't be on you.
I didn’t settle on boots of the winding patch till almost the end. I did give out magic items, I ran through a number of combinations for myself and others. But ultimately why use an infusion for a radiant weapon when the paladin already had a magic sword? The archer used a magic longbow and didn’t want a repeating crossbow (although they did like the goggles of night), the rogue got boots of elvenkind but with expertise in stealth, its nice but not needed.
Radiant weapon creates blindness in the example given, but there are other options like increasing your own AC with repulsion shield instead. Boot of the winding path are a poor choice if escape is the goal for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post.
I used all three of those attack spells at various times. I’m very disappointed in Tasha's caustic brew since it deals damage at the beginning of the target’s turn, not when cast. There were actually 2 situation where I cast it and dealt no damage at all because of missed con saves, which is why I switched to the mind sharpener.
Tasha's caustic brew is good because you can hit multiple targets with it for a DOT, but if you're failing concentration saves then that would have happened with faerie fire too. I find this interesting because your alchemist would be the only PC in the party with CON save proficiency who casts spells. Paladins and bards are not proficient in that save and would also be failing those concentration saves but don't have the advantage of mind sharpener.
That fact that the alchemist has that save proficiency and an infusion option to prevent losing concentration is an advantage, not a disadvantage compared to other classes.
You can also stack DOT damage with create bonfire instead of using a spell slot but I don't normally go that route because of limited number of cantrips compared to prepared spells options.
Now for the experimental elixirs:
Again, these are part of what defines the alchemist. They are random and don’t scale. The temp-hp at higher levels are nice mechanically but have absolutely nothing to do with the sub-classes theme. Here have a floating potion and get some temp HP, move a bit faster and temp HP. Why?
It's a healing subclass and temporary hit points are thematic for support healing for a lot of classes these days. Thp are a benefit in proactively preventing damage before it occurs as opposed to reactively healing. It's an advantage and if you think it's not thematic that doesn't mechanically hinder the class or subclass. It's aesthetics.
Healing – yep, nice post combat potion. Same issue with any potion of healing, you spend your entire action to heal a small amount of HP, sure it’s more than a standard potion of healing starting at 5 level, but not worth an action in combat.
How much healing do you think a 1st level spell slot heals someone when another class uses it? That paladin or bard using a 1st level spell slot for cure wounds is going to heal 1d8+mod while the elixir heals 2d4+mod+(2d6+mod)thp. That's a better minimum and better average than cure wounds even at 3rd level for the same action. A potion of healing heals 2d4+2 and also takes an action to use or administer.
Alchemists add their ability modifier to cure wounds a second time when using alchemical supplies as a focus starting at 5th level so that same action cost and spell slot heal 1d8+2*mod, but since all alchemists know healing word 1d4+2*mod is better than 1d8+mod from your other casters, uses a bonus action instead of an action, and the better elixirs later on can be used out of combat instead of in combat.
Most healing should be done out of combat for efficiency options. In the case of the healing elixir that 1st level slot will heal 10 hp (avg) and give 12 thp (avg) compared to the cure wound with the same resources where the paladin is likely 1d8+3 (7hp) or the bard is likely 1d8+5 (9 hp) on average. The alchemist is far better off for that 1st level slot to use the elixir. And, if the elixir already available then the alchemist can spend a bonus action for it if they have a homunculus who then administers the elixir with it's action.
For comparison, that same slot used by the alchemist for cure wounds heals 14hp and healing word heals 12hp on average.
The elixir can also affect undead and constructs, which cure wounds specifically prohibits for a situational benefit. This is relevant with the homunculus servant if it comes up.
The advantage the bard has is gaining access to higher level spells faster and song of rest is good. Song of rest is directly impacted by number of rests and hit die expenditure. The advantage the paladin has is lay on hands can give a bigger one shot. The bonus from alchemical savant passes the paladin's lay on hands total with number of slots per day. For example, LOH provides 25 hp in healing at 5th level and alchemical savant adds 24 hp in healing with 18 INT through 6 spell slots. At 9th level LOH adds 45 hp healing and alchemical savant adds the same 45 through slots and restorative reagents is adding an addition 10 thp with 20 INT.
It's not concentrated but the ability is there, and it seems silly to not spend that 1st level slot on an elixir over casting a spell. The whole healing thing in comparison isn't a struggle with alchemists.
Swiftness – one of the few I don’t have an issue with, except its random. You’re supposed to be a trained alchemist.
It's not random. The alchemist can replicate it at will. The daily experiments are random. The question is whether it's worth the spell slot. ;-)
Boldness, resilience – the same issues as all those potions, look at how long combat usually lasts and then decide on giving up a full action for getting a slight buff. Try giving the smite happy paladin a potion of boldness and then have him use it instead of smiting on that first round. Same with any of the other classes, generally it is better to focus on what your class does well than spend an action for a slight increase.
The time to drink these is when the group knows they are going into fight usually. They last long enough to complete the battle if taken and then fighting starts. Another good time to take them is when opponents are closing. That gets back to initiative, surprise, and encounter distance rules. All fights shouldn't be starting in melee.
Numerous small increases is how we add up to bigger increases. My alchemist would pop these with the extra haste action to use an item.
Flight – (for some reason I tended to roll this) Its very slow, a short duration and if you could fly into a combat it may be worth it but taking it (generally while already in melee) and trying to fly doesn’t work out against most tier 2 enemies. It helped us get over a wall – once.
Define "most tier 2 enemies" because it lasts as long as the regular fly spell, uses the same action economy as the fly spell, but doesn't require a 3rd level slot or concentration like the fly spell. This gets back to my haste example.
The flight elixir grants a 10' flight speed while the haste spell doubles that and both can be used together because the elixir has no concentration requirement. That changes the base speed to 20' and the extra action can be used to dash so the flight speed is 40' of movement using it that way.
These elixirs don't exist in a vacuum.
I found 10 minutes of flight for a 1st level slot useful. That's 2000' of flight movement by itself by spending movement and dash action.
Levitate is only 20' per turn as well and also costs concentration as another example of something spell casters are often claimed as having a significant advantage over certain types of opponents.
Transformation – never had a use for it. I suppose if you were desperate at tier 1 and didn’t have a magic weapon you could use the natural weapon, but by the time a group is tier 2 you can assume everyone has a magical attack.
Maybe you should try using it? ;-)
Alter self can be used for a magic weapon in a pinch but it's a cheap source of water breathing and swim speed from the aquatic adaptation. It a quick disguise in chase scenes, social encounters, or infiltration as examples. Do you always just fight?
There are situation where some of the elixirs would be useful, but being random pretty much guarantees you’re going to be spending a spell slot. Artificers already don’t have may spell slots and instead of being able to use them as spells, the game is forcing them to spend them to use a bad class feature.
Random doesn't mean that at all. The alchemist only spends a spell slot when it makes sense to spend a spell slot.
What you just said doesn't make any sense because the game doesn't force the player to do that at all. Players decide when to spend spell slots on what and an option in the elixirs that isn't desired at the time cannot force the player to do it anyway, and if the player does make that choice it's because that elixir was desirable at that time.
The only thing you've described is opportunity cost and that isn't necessarily class or subclass specific either. It's not different from casting a faerie fire and not having a slot for healing word later or vice versa. The lore bard gets nothing but more opportunity costs on which to spend the same resources (cutting words, extra secrets, peerless skill) other than some additional skill proficiencies and a lot of players call that good.
The only thing the elixirs do is grant additional options like knowing a few more 1st level equivalents spells and then getting a couple random freebies. More options doesn't hurt alchemists.
Sadly enough surprise rules are being followed. If you rogue snuck out in front or got lucky listening at a door we may have had surprise. Hence my comment on if we could prepare. But you’ll also notice the party was rolling stealth at disadvantage if we stuck together, and we got surprised.
Most of the campaign was tier 2, not tier 1 which is why I’ve called out tier 2 a few times.
Tier 2 no magic items or infusions bard AC 15 (studded leather + dex) alchemist AC 17 (scale mail + dex + shield) rogue AC 17 (studded leather + dex) paladin AC 20 (plate + shield) and fighter/rogue AC 18 (studded leather + dex). Now the group found a magic shield +1 that went to the paladin (I ended up using an infusion at that time) and a ring of protection which was claimed by the rogue and a cloak of protection claimed by the fighter/rogue. We split magic items as needed and didn’t try to make one character uber.
With magic and infusions:
Bard AC 15
Fighter/rogue AC 18
Paladin: AC 21 (23 if shield of faith – generally when rushing in)
Alchemist AC 18
Rogue AC 18
The paladin ended up with a frostbrand. Which bring up the other point that it doesn’t matter what infusions an artificer prepares and hands out, if the other players aren’t going to use them. Hence no use for the radiant weapon, and most of the elixirs.
The cast a concentration and then hiding began around 3 level and stayed fairly consistent throughout the rest of the game. I did mention I tried out flaming sphere, caustic brew, etc. but faerie fire was the most effective against groups. I’d then throw grease if I could stay on the other side of a door or something to slow enemies approaching. I will add some clarification, when I say hiding, I mean taking full cover, not necessarily using the stealth skill.
Sanctuary is mostly pointless. It is good in that it isn’t concentration. Its bad in that casting a spell that affects an enemy (not damage just affects like faerie fire) or attacking drops it. Its too situational and if I’m going to rely on it and do nothing, why bother participating in the combat. Why not stay in town and give out infusions?
I agree that more buffing is good, but when that buff (elixir) cost more than it’s worth, it’s a trap. A normal experimental elixir is random, it may or may not be useful (which breaks the theme – no reliable replication toss in whatever and see what happens). Then it costs the other party member a full action. Now if you want a specific potion, it’ll cost the alchemist an action + spell slot then handing it over (call it a free item interaction for both characters) then another action for the one using the elixir.
Now instead of doing all that I can cast faerie fire and grant advantage as the paladin smites, the rogue and fighter/rogue sneak attack and the bard either buffs the party or causes confusion among the enemy and throw out bardic inspiration.
Now if we could setup an ambush then sure pass out those elixirs and take them just before they get into range. However, they’re random, so do you use one of your few spell slots to buff 1 character or use it to help 3?
Even at level 9 my con save was +6
An alchemist is a bad healing sub-class. It get +int on 2 first level healing spells, can make potions of healing, and cast lesser restoration. It’s capstone is 1/day heal and greater restoration. Bards, divine souled sorcerers, druids are all better support (healing) classes and have full spell progression. Compare it to the other half-caster classes and it’s still barely doing anything; paladins get lay on hands 5 x level HP plus their spell slots (assuming they’re not all smite happy) even rangers get healing spirit. You’re assuming the alchemist is spending everything on healing, meaning you’re ignoring all the other stuff that you could be doing. I don’t want to play a heal-bot be they an alchemist or healing cleric. Spam healing should not be the only reason to take a sub-class.
If the holunculus servant got hit it dropped. At level 9 it only has 15 HP (assuming 20 INT). Easier to wait till after a long rest and recreate it, unless you’ve got he mending cantrip then just take a couple of minutes. No need to spend healing on it at all.
Temp HP at higher levels is an insult to the elixier. It doesn’t affect the randomness. It doesn’t address the cost, (spend that 2 level spell slot get 1 elixier). It isn’t thematic, and as far as game mechanics go, why bother? Temp HPs don’t stack and there are now a bunch of methods to throw out temp HP to the party as a whole not just an individual character.
The infusions and by extension the alchemists’s elixirs are supposed to be templates the artificier is working on, since when is a template random?
Flight – you are wasting a 3 level spell to justify a bad flight speed. Again, there are some situation where a slow flight would be useful, but the randomness and the cost generally aren’t’ worth it. Say the group needs to cross a chasm, if you’ve got time then give it to the paladin and they carry everyone across one at a time. But, throw in a time limit and suddenly I’m down all four 1 level spell slots and a 2 level spell slot.
Transformation even you said it’s very situational. It also changes you, not your clothing or armor. In order to do the whole blending in thing you’re trying to portray, use disguise self. Again game dependent, some DMs may let you get away with it, but RAW for the spell it wouldn’t work most instances.
Sorry, but random means random. When the basic ability of the sub-class depends on a die role to determine if it would be useful it’s random.
The artificiers in general can be very underwhelming (depending on campaign, GP, downtime, & crafting rules used) but that is more game and DM dependent. The alchemist under those same rules is even worse. Its primary ability (3rd & 5th levels) doesn't measure up to any of the other artificier sub-classes and even your justification limite it to a heal-bot role.
Spell storing item is a great feature on an artificer with it you can pretty reliably cast 2nd level spells.
The homonculus servant infusion lets you do actions as a bonus action as long as it remains alive. You can use this to use items like caltrops rather thank taking thief levels
You can combine those to cast spells as a bonus action. If you use your servant purely defensively like using healing spells or spreading traps like caltrops you can protect them with a spell like sanctuary which will make them fairly unlikely to be attacked directly without costing concentration. To give you an idea of how powerful this is I've used it to cast 3 spells a turn as an artificer, the homonculus had a ring of spell storing and the spell storing item so it could cast a spell as an action from the spell storing item and a bonus action spell from the ring of spell storing which I could command with a single bonus action. I used this defensively so I could use sanctuary to protect the servant but you could use it offensively by changing the spells.
There are also some solid consumable items your dm might let you make as an artificer that are made fairly cheap with your class abilities. For example elemental gem, dust of corrosion, dust of sneezing and choking; and potion of growth all only take 2 days and 50 gold each to make as an artificer by xanathar's rules meaning you could build up quite a supply if your dm lets you. Sneezing and choking is particularly good on artificer because that effect is nasty but curable with the plentiful access to lesser restoration that you have.
The campaign ended at 10th level, so never go to use a spell storing item.
What bonus action spell did you have in the ring of spell storing that made it consistently worth casting? The only artificier spell I can think of is magic stone and that seems a waste for a ring of spell storing when there are so many better options.
Either healing word if I wanted to do more healing or sanctuary so the homunculus could shield itself without requiring my slots but the way ring of spell storing works is that any member of the team could cast spells into it for the homunculus to use so you could have any spell.
Healing word makes sense for additional healing, but sanctuary seems pointless if the familiar or anyone else is really doing anything more than hiding or heaing, which sadly enough forces the alchemist into heal bot mode.
Well you can have the homunculus take the heal bot role and keep sanctuary on it. It also protects it while it takes the help action. Also like I said it could take spells from any one. Some other good bonus action spells are :
Healing spirit
Shield of faith
Dragon's breath
You could also give it action spells but the 3 spells a turn trick requires a bonus action spell.
Heat metal might be good too as you could potentially command it to take its bonus action to deal damage and cast a spell with a single bonus action.
There are a few good uses I've found that uses alch 3 and then multis into other classes.
-alch 5/ scribe 2 taking the feat artificers initiate: use this to turn a magic missile from the scribe into fire dmg cast through alch tools so you can add the mod (or die idr right now) to the roll to super buff MM
-alch 3/ barb X: drink enhanced potion then rage since RAW doing this first turn would work due to there never counting a "previous turn" (this is a ymmv though) so it would still allow for your barb to dmg the following turn within rage.
-alch 3/ moon druid X: the potion action then transform. What potion? your choice of what you prepped before I suppose.
alch 3/ thief 3: fast hands to drink the potion since it itself does not appear to be magical, but again ymmv.
These are the main ones that come to mind right now. Once that Hadozzee race comes out no thief levels needed.
'Use an object' doesn't include using a potion, at least per RAW as using a potion is already defined as an action.
The other options are also questionable.Its one roll of damge not per missle so it would be: MM 3d4+3 ave: 10.5 +5 for buff = 15.5. Versus a tier 2 firebolt 2d10 ave: 11 +5 = 16.
The barb and druid have the same weakness. You're giving up a full action to down a potioin vs attacking. Now if you're moving into position or some other scennario where you wouldn't use your action then 'ok'.
'Use an object' doesn't include using a potion, at least per RAW as using a potion is already defined as an action.
The other options are also questionable.Its one roll of damge not per missle so it would be: MM 3d4+3 ave: 10.5 +5 for buff = 15.5. Versus a tier 2 firebolt 2d10 ave: 11 +5 = 16.
The barb and druid have the same weakness. You're giving up a full action to down a potioin vs attacking. Now if you're moving into position or some other scennario where you wouldn't use your action then 'ok'.
UseanObject (PHB p. 193)
When an object requires your action for its use, you take the UseanObject action.
This constitutes the aspect of an elixer to be used since as stated it is an action to consume and it is not a magical item. As RAW this works.
As for the MM it is one roll, correct. Which when you cast MM you only roll 1 die then apply that dmg for all missiles per Jeremy Crawford. Thus MM at 1st level without shenanigans is 1d4+1 X3, lvl 2 is x4, etc.So this as well would work. So the artscribe casting MM at lvl 1 using the trick (assuming int of 20) would be 1d4+6 (1+5 from int mod) x3. the average dmg from this would be 2.5+6=8.5 x 3 = 25.5 avg dmg.
As for the others yes you are giving up your first turn dmg round, to create the set up for an enhanced turns later on.
I've never played at a table that used that rule for MM or similar spells, neither normal play or organized play. I'm not saying others don't, I've just never seen it.
Edited: The roll 1 dice is only if the spell targets multiple enemies. If all 3 magic missiles target 1 enemy it goes back to 3d4+3+5 (assuming int 20) - at least RAW PHB p196. Which means if you targeted 2 enemies you would still roll (1d4+1) x 3 + 5 and choose which enemy got the +5.
Read experimental elixir. It specifies:
"As an action, a creature can drink the elixir or administer it to an incapacitated creature."
The point about giving up your action to use an elixir, is two fold. 1 - you're giving up your action (spell, attack) and rarely is that worth a potion. 2-the elixirs, while ok at tier 1, very quickly lose potency to the point they're worthless at higher tiers.
Faerie Fire regularly is a strong contribution to combat because of the group multiplier effect.
First question is, "why would you melee?" Cantrips add INT mod to damage (making them better than cantrip damage for other spell casters) and are ranged. Melee doesn't make sense unless you want to deliver touch spells.
Second question is, "why would you drop to 0 hp fast?" D8 hp is the standard for most classes and artificers start with better armor than many classes, plus infusions make it easy to build a high AC early.
You've essentially claimed you didn't need to use healing because you have a bard and a paladin, then claimed you needed healing because of damage and fled, and missed the part where your healing spells heal more individual damage than the paladin and the bard is limited by spells known and doesn't have that better healing bonus.
Alchemy jug isn't great outside of flavor, but again why would you need to run away? Your alchemist has the same hit die as the bard and better armor proficiencies than most bard colleges. The paladin armor proficiencies are only a point of AC better (but not needing DEX investment) and at 9th level the paladin has 10 more hp based on the hit die (ie the artificer has 48 hp and the paladin has 58 hp before either applies CON bonus and the paladin is more MAD).
Changing infusions used can be changed daily. Your alchemist knew 6 infusions and could infuse 3 items. If you continuously had mind sharpener and boots of the winding path then you were only giving one out to the party to help.
Mind sharpener was a good choice because you were using faerie fire but boots of the winding path was wasted because it only lets the character teleport 15 ft to a space in which the character already occupied during that turn. It's essentially a bonus action to back track a partial move. Your alchemist could have used radiant weapon instead so the paladin could blind opponents with it. That helps reduce incoming damage and might save a spell slot being used for faerie fire. That also opens up the alchemist's bonus action to make use of flaming sphere or for damage in addition to cantrips. It's also possible to make use of the homunculus infusion.
The alchemist's spell options for damage at low level include faerie fire, Tasha's caustic brew, and flaming sphere. They all take concentration and after casting them add to damage on top of cantrip slinging. Make the best choice for the situation.
Let's look at that elixirs that "were garbage".
Healing: Look back at your post. You claimed you were taking damage. The healing elixir isn't worth the spell slot once alchemical savant becomes available but then becomes worth it again for the temp hp later on with restorative reagents. The gap in between don't spend the slot on the spell but I have to ask, "If you are taking damage how does rolling this as a free elixir not help?"
Swiftness: Look back at your post. You claimed you need to spend your bonus action to run away with 15 ft of extra movement so I have to ask, "If you need extra movement to run away then how is extra movement not helping?" If you don't think it's worth the slot then don't spend the slot but for a random roll you can definitely use the bonus.
Resilience: Look back at your post. You claimed you were taking damage. Stacking 1 more AC matters about 1 attack out of 20 but stacking as many as you can adds up. I have to ask, "If you are concerned about taking damage then how is more AC to mitigate it not helping?"
Boldness: Look back at your post. You claimed your only contribution was faerie fire, which increase attack accuracy. This is a stackable non-concentration bonus. I have to ask, "If your contribution was accuracy then how does more accuracy not help?"
Flight: Look back at your post. You claimed you needed to run away. Flight mitigates damage or getting attacked from many types of opponents. It can also bypass environmental challenges. Since this elixir does not cost the character's concentration to fly it's one a limited number of ways to contribute concentration spells such as the faerie fire you stated you were using concentration from potential safety. Flying is often referenced as an advantage for spell casters so, "How does granting flying without requiring concentration not helpful?" This elixir is definitely worth a 1st level spell slot.
Transformation: This is the only elixir that might randomly roll and not have a use for the day. It's very useful when it is needed, however, for the water breathing or disguise benefits. It might not be useful when randomly rolled but it's very much worth the 1st level spell slot when it comes up.
I don't see your argument when I play.
Please clarify what you mean by "stackable." Because from what I can tell the boldness elixir isn't any more stackable than any other single spell or feature in D&D.
My guess (from what I remember of previous arguments) is you mean that it stacks with bless because it's a similar feature with a different name. Which, while accurate, feels misleading because you seem to be advertising it as a special feature of the Experimental Elixir which it simply isn't. It's just a standard feature of how the game works when you have differently named features that grant similar effects. Because, by the very same logic, the emboldening bond feature of the peace domain cleric also stacks with bless.
Stackable with other buffs to build bigger numbers because of the lack of concentration requirement.
Unless I've missed the point of the convo, Faerie Fire is concentration.
Hjalmar Gunderson, Vuman Alchemist Plague Doctor in a HB Campaign, Post Netherese Invasion Cormyr (lvl20 retired)
Godfrey, Autognome Butler in Ghosts of Saltmarsh into Spelljammer
Grímr Skeggisson, Goliath Rune Knight in Rime of the Frostmaiden
DM of two HB campaigns set in the same world.
You definitely missed the point, lol. The boldness elixir is not concentration and therefore can be stacked with other accuracy enhancing spells like bless or faerie fire.
Heh heh! Many apologies! I only read a few comments back haha nevermind, carry on, move along, as you were!
Hjalmar Gunderson, Vuman Alchemist Plague Doctor in a HB Campaign, Post Netherese Invasion Cormyr (lvl20 retired)
Godfrey, Autognome Butler in Ghosts of Saltmarsh into Spelljammer
Grímr Skeggisson, Goliath Rune Knight in Rime of the Frostmaiden
DM of two HB campaigns set in the same world.
I tend to think of alchemist as a combat catalyst; supporting the other PCs. He's already give out a bunch of cool infusions and perhaps a boldness elixir or two. Once he's in combat he spends his time casting faerie fire or web and throws out acid splashes.
I see him as supporting the other PCs thought things like flash of genius and buff/debuff spells. I'd much rather cast haste on a Barbarian I've given an enhanced weapon infusion to (and then hide) than to try and be the star of combat
I was in melee because the group consisted of a paladin (melee) a rogue (hiding), a bard (always at the back) and an multi fighter(archer)/rogue (2 level for bonus action hide). So more often than not, when combat started I was in melee, and not from running into it.
I’d drop because I had a lower AC than the paladin (especially if they cast shield of faith. And I’d drop because I’d be taking half the attacks the first round. Now if we actually got to setup or prepare an ambush we could mow through enemies.
I said I never used healing on others, which is what a support character would normally do. Instead I used almost all my healing on myself (I didn’t heal often) to stay up and still went down numerous times with the bard healing me.
As for the other reasons I kept going down, its called focused fire and random dice rolls. The paladin would be hurting and could dump healing touch into himself or the bard would buff us all.
I didn’t settle on boots of the winding patch till almost the end. I did give out magic items, I ran through a number of combinations for myself and others. But ultimately why use an infusion for a radiant weapon when the paladin already had a magic sword? The archer used a magic longbow and didn’t want a repeating crossbow (although they did like the goggles of night), the rogue got boots of elvenkind but with expertise in stealth, its nice but not needed.
I used all three of those attack spells at various times. I’m very disappointed in Tasha's caustic brew since it deals damage at the beginning of the target’s turn, not when cast. There were actually 2 situation where I cast it and dealt no damage at all because of missed con saves, which is why I switched to the mind sharpener.
Now for the experimental elixirs:
Again, these are part of what defines the alchemist. They are random and don’t scale. The temp-hp at higher levels are nice mechanically but have absolutely nothing to do with the sub-classes theme. Here have a floating potion and get some temp HP, move a bit faster and temp HP. Why?
Healing – yep, nice post combat potion. Same issue with any potion of healing, you spend your entire action to heal a small amount of HP, sure it’s more than a standard potion of healing starting at 5 level, but not worth an action in combat.
Swiftness – one of the few I don’t have an issue with, except its random. You’re supposed to be a trained alchemist.
Boldness, resilience – the same issues as all those potions, look at how long combat usually lasts and then decide on giving up a full action for getting a slight buff. Try giving the smite happy paladin a potion of boldness and then have him use it instead of smiting on that first round. Same with any of the other classes, generally it is better to focus on what your class does well than spend an action for a slight increase.
Flight – (for some reason I tended to roll this) Its very slow, a short duration and if you could fly into a combat it may be worth it but taking it (generally while already in melee) and trying to fly doesn’t work out against most tier 2 enemies. It helped us get over a wall – once.
Transformation – never had a use for it. I suppose if you were desperate at tier 1 and didn’t have a magic weapon you could use the natural weapon, but by the time a group is tier 2 you can assume everyone has a magical attack.
There are situation where some of the elixirs would be useful, but being random pretty much guarantees you’re going to be spending a spell slot. Artificers already don’t have may spell slots and instead of being able to use them as spells, the game is forcing them to spend them to use a bad class feature.
If encounters are already starting with you in melee then the encounter distance and determining surprise rules aren't being followed. That's not a class issue and would impact all classes or subclasses equally. There doesn't seem to be any reason your character would have started in melee but not the other characters.
But if that's the case then it's okay to use infusions on yourself to boost your AC. The bottom line here is your AC is going to be better than those other PC's with the exception of the paladin depending that build and hit points are going to be about the same as almost every PC.
Why would you have a significantly lower AC than the paladin? Starting equipment is chainmail for the paladin and may or may not include a shield while starting equipment for an artificer is scale mail, which makes the same AC with the DEX bonus and artificers can use shields too. A shield isn't hard to pick up for the same AC.
The paladin would need to acquire expensive full plate and/or use the fighting style for a small bonus.
Shield of Faith could have been cast on your alchemist. It's a bonus the paladin creates but not restricted to the paladin. If the paladin isn't buffing you then don't buff the paladin. As far as being a caster goes, the paladin learns spells at the same rate and has the same spell slot progression aside from 1st level. And if you used one of those infusions for an AC bonus plus the resilience elixir you have the same +2 AC bonus but without the concentration requirement for the same spell slot cost.
I can give AC to a paladin, but I can do a good job of that with an alchemist too.
Your AC and hit point gap still don't make sense. Artificers have good AC and the hit point difference is 1+1/lvl.
Go back and look at your post again.
You first claimed to be spending most combats casting faerie fire and hiding. You claimed support was useless because of the paladin and bard.
If a character is spending most combats one faerie fire and hiding then the character isn't spending those slots and actions on healing or vice versa. If the bard is spending slots and actions on healing the bard is not spending those slots and actions on support. Action economy comes into play.
This looks like back pedaling, but I would ask why you think you would not have gone down under the same conditions with another artificer subclass or another class? Not many options are giving you similar AC and most of them have the same hit points.
Here is a tip on spell management if you are working support: spend a slot on sanctuary as part of the sequence. Sanctuary reduces your incoming damage because of the required saving throw before attacking and it's cast as a bonus action and it doesn't require concentration. That will save you more damage than shield of faith will. Then you can support more safely, even when the battle keeps starting with you in melee but not other characters for some reason. ;-)
The paladin healing or the bard buffing doesn't negatively impact alchemists. It helps stretch out those resources more because more PC's are healing in campaign where a lot of healing is needed. The alchemist having more healing in such a campaign is helping.
Random dice rolls is not a class or subclass specific issue and cannot justify a class or subclass as an issue.
Focused fire is not a class or subclass specific issue and cannot justify a class or subclass as an issue.
Question why fire is focused your way and address the root cause if you can. if not, got back to my tip above of casting sanctuary because then the focused fire won't be on you.
Radiant weapon creates blindness in the example given, but there are other options like increasing your own AC with repulsion shield instead. Boot of the winding path are a poor choice if escape is the goal for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post.
Tasha's caustic brew is good because you can hit multiple targets with it for a DOT, but if you're failing concentration saves then that would have happened with faerie fire too. I find this interesting because your alchemist would be the only PC in the party with CON save proficiency who casts spells. Paladins and bards are not proficient in that save and would also be failing those concentration saves but don't have the advantage of mind sharpener.
That fact that the alchemist has that save proficiency and an infusion option to prevent losing concentration is an advantage, not a disadvantage compared to other classes.
You can also stack DOT damage with create bonfire instead of using a spell slot but I don't normally go that route because of limited number of cantrips compared to prepared spells options.
It's a healing subclass and temporary hit points are thematic for support healing for a lot of classes these days. Thp are a benefit in proactively preventing damage before it occurs as opposed to reactively healing. It's an advantage and if you think it's not thematic that doesn't mechanically hinder the class or subclass. It's aesthetics.
How much healing do you think a 1st level spell slot heals someone when another class uses it? That paladin or bard using a 1st level spell slot for cure wounds is going to heal 1d8+mod while the elixir heals 2d4+mod+(2d6+mod)thp. That's a better minimum and better average than cure wounds even at 3rd level for the same action. A potion of healing heals 2d4+2 and also takes an action to use or administer.
Alchemists add their ability modifier to cure wounds a second time when using alchemical supplies as a focus starting at 5th level so that same action cost and spell slot heal 1d8+2*mod, but since all alchemists know healing word 1d4+2*mod is better than 1d8+mod from your other casters, uses a bonus action instead of an action, and the better elixirs later on can be used out of combat instead of in combat.
Most healing should be done out of combat for efficiency options. In the case of the healing elixir that 1st level slot will heal 10 hp (avg) and give 12 thp (avg) compared to the cure wound with the same resources where the paladin is likely 1d8+3 (7hp) or the bard is likely 1d8+5 (9 hp) on average. The alchemist is far better off for that 1st level slot to use the elixir. And, if the elixir already available then the alchemist can spend a bonus action for it if they have a homunculus who then administers the elixir with it's action.
For comparison, that same slot used by the alchemist for cure wounds heals 14hp and healing word heals 12hp on average.
The elixir can also affect undead and constructs, which cure wounds specifically prohibits for a situational benefit. This is relevant with the homunculus servant if it comes up.
The advantage the bard has is gaining access to higher level spells faster and song of rest is good. Song of rest is directly impacted by number of rests and hit die expenditure. The advantage the paladin has is lay on hands can give a bigger one shot. The bonus from alchemical savant passes the paladin's lay on hands total with number of slots per day. For example, LOH provides 25 hp in healing at 5th level and alchemical savant adds 24 hp in healing with 18 INT through 6 spell slots. At 9th level LOH adds 45 hp healing and alchemical savant adds the same 45 through slots and restorative reagents is adding an addition 10 thp with 20 INT.
It's not concentrated but the ability is there, and it seems silly to not spend that 1st level slot on an elixir over casting a spell. The whole healing thing in comparison isn't a struggle with alchemists.
It's not random. The alchemist can replicate it at will. The daily experiments are random. The question is whether it's worth the spell slot. ;-)
The time to drink these is when the group knows they are going into fight usually. They last long enough to complete the battle if taken and then fighting starts. Another good time to take them is when opponents are closing. That gets back to initiative, surprise, and encounter distance rules. All fights shouldn't be starting in melee.
Numerous small increases is how we add up to bigger increases. My alchemist would pop these with the extra haste action to use an item.
Define "most tier 2 enemies" because it lasts as long as the regular fly spell, uses the same action economy as the fly spell, but doesn't require a 3rd level slot or concentration like the fly spell. This gets back to my haste example.
The flight elixir grants a 10' flight speed while the haste spell doubles that and both can be used together because the elixir has no concentration requirement. That changes the base speed to 20' and the extra action can be used to dash so the flight speed is 40' of movement using it that way.
These elixirs don't exist in a vacuum.
I found 10 minutes of flight for a 1st level slot useful. That's 2000' of flight movement by itself by spending movement and dash action.
Levitate is only 20' per turn as well and also costs concentration as another example of something spell casters are often claimed as having a significant advantage over certain types of opponents.
Maybe you should try using it? ;-)
Alter self can be used for a magic weapon in a pinch but it's a cheap source of water breathing and swim speed from the aquatic adaptation. It a quick disguise in chase scenes, social encounters, or infiltration as examples. Do you always just fight?
Random doesn't mean that at all. The alchemist only spends a spell slot when it makes sense to spend a spell slot.
What you just said doesn't make any sense because the game doesn't force the player to do that at all. Players decide when to spend spell slots on what and an option in the elixirs that isn't desired at the time cannot force the player to do it anyway, and if the player does make that choice it's because that elixir was desirable at that time.
The only thing you've described is opportunity cost and that isn't necessarily class or subclass specific either. It's not different from casting a faerie fire and not having a slot for healing word later or vice versa. The lore bard gets nothing but more opportunity costs on which to spend the same resources (cutting words, extra secrets, peerless skill) other than some additional skill proficiencies and a lot of players call that good.
The only thing the elixirs do is grant additional options like knowing a few more 1st level equivalents spells and then getting a couple random freebies. More options doesn't hurt alchemists.
Sadly enough surprise rules are being followed. If you rogue snuck out in front or got lucky listening at a door we may have had surprise. Hence my comment on if we could prepare. But you’ll also notice the party was rolling stealth at disadvantage if we stuck together, and we got surprised.
Most of the campaign was tier 2, not tier 1 which is why I’ve called out tier 2 a few times.
Tier 2 no magic items or infusions bard AC 15 (studded leather + dex) alchemist AC 17 (scale mail + dex + shield) rogue AC 17 (studded leather + dex) paladin AC 20 (plate + shield) and fighter/rogue AC 18 (studded leather + dex). Now the group found a magic shield +1 that went to the paladin (I ended up using an infusion at that time) and a ring of protection which was claimed by the rogue and a cloak of protection claimed by the fighter/rogue. We split magic items as needed and didn’t try to make one character uber.
With magic and infusions:
Bard AC 15
Fighter/rogue AC 18
Paladin: AC 21 (23 if shield of faith – generally when rushing in)
Alchemist AC 18
Rogue AC 18
The paladin ended up with a frostbrand. Which bring up the other point that it doesn’t matter what infusions an artificer prepares and hands out, if the other players aren’t going to use them. Hence no use for the radiant weapon, and most of the elixirs.
The cast a concentration and then hiding began around 3 level and stayed fairly consistent throughout the rest of the game. I did mention I tried out flaming sphere, caustic brew, etc. but faerie fire was the most effective against groups. I’d then throw grease if I could stay on the other side of a door or something to slow enemies approaching. I will add some clarification, when I say hiding, I mean taking full cover, not necessarily using the stealth skill.
Sanctuary is mostly pointless. It is good in that it isn’t concentration. Its bad in that casting a spell that affects an enemy (not damage just affects like faerie fire) or attacking drops it. Its too situational and if I’m going to rely on it and do nothing, why bother participating in the combat. Why not stay in town and give out infusions?
I agree that more buffing is good, but when that buff (elixir) cost more than it’s worth, it’s a trap. A normal experimental elixir is random, it may or may not be useful (which breaks the theme – no reliable replication toss in whatever and see what happens). Then it costs the other party member a full action. Now if you want a specific potion, it’ll cost the alchemist an action + spell slot then handing it over (call it a free item interaction for both characters) then another action for the one using the elixir.
Now instead of doing all that I can cast faerie fire and grant advantage as the paladin smites, the rogue and fighter/rogue sneak attack and the bard either buffs the party or causes confusion among the enemy and throw out bardic inspiration.
Now if we could setup an ambush then sure pass out those elixirs and take them just before they get into range. However, they’re random, so do you use one of your few spell slots to buff 1 character or use it to help 3?
Even at level 9 my con save was +6
An alchemist is a bad healing sub-class. It get +int on 2 first level healing spells, can make potions of healing, and cast lesser restoration. It’s capstone is 1/day heal and greater restoration. Bards, divine souled sorcerers, druids are all better support (healing) classes and have full spell progression. Compare it to the other half-caster classes and it’s still barely doing anything; paladins get lay on hands 5 x level HP plus their spell slots (assuming they’re not all smite happy) even rangers get healing spirit. You’re assuming the alchemist is spending everything on healing, meaning you’re ignoring all the other stuff that you could be doing. I don’t want to play a heal-bot be they an alchemist or healing cleric. Spam healing should not be the only reason to take a sub-class.
If the holunculus servant got hit it dropped. At level 9 it only has 15 HP (assuming 20 INT). Easier to wait till after a long rest and recreate it, unless you’ve got he mending cantrip then just take a couple of minutes. No need to spend healing on it at all.
Temp HP at higher levels is an insult to the elixier. It doesn’t affect the randomness. It doesn’t address the cost, (spend that 2 level spell slot get 1 elixier). It isn’t thematic, and as far as game mechanics go, why bother? Temp HPs don’t stack and there are now a bunch of methods to throw out temp HP to the party as a whole not just an individual character.
The infusions and by extension the alchemists’s elixirs are supposed to be templates the artificier is working on, since when is a template random?
Flight – you are wasting a 3 level spell to justify a bad flight speed. Again, there are some situation where a slow flight would be useful, but the randomness and the cost generally aren’t’ worth it. Say the group needs to cross a chasm, if you’ve got time then give it to the paladin and they carry everyone across one at a time. But, throw in a time limit and suddenly I’m down all four 1 level spell slots and a 2 level spell slot.
Transformation even you said it’s very situational. It also changes you, not your clothing or armor. In order to do the whole blending in thing you’re trying to portray, use disguise self. Again game dependent, some DMs may let you get away with it, but RAW for the spell it wouldn’t work most instances.
Sorry, but random means random. When the basic ability of the sub-class depends on a die role to determine if it would be useful it’s random.
The artificiers in general can be very underwhelming (depending on campaign, GP, downtime, & crafting rules used) but that is more game and DM dependent. The alchemist under those same rules is even worse. Its primary ability (3rd & 5th levels) doesn't measure up to any of the other artificier sub-classes and even your justification limite it to a heal-bot role.
Spell storing item is a great feature on an artificer with it you can pretty reliably cast 2nd level spells.
The homonculus servant infusion lets you do actions as a bonus action as long as it remains alive. You can use this to use items like caltrops rather thank taking thief levels
You can combine those to cast spells as a bonus action. If you use your servant purely defensively like using healing spells or spreading traps like caltrops you can protect them with a spell like sanctuary which will make them fairly unlikely to be attacked directly without costing concentration. To give you an idea of how powerful this is I've used it to cast 3 spells a turn as an artificer, the homonculus had a ring of spell storing and the spell storing item so it could cast a spell as an action from the spell storing item and a bonus action spell from the ring of spell storing which I could command with a single bonus action. I used this defensively so I could use sanctuary to protect the servant but you could use it offensively by changing the spells.
There are also some solid consumable items your dm might let you make as an artificer that are made fairly cheap with your class abilities. For example elemental gem, dust of corrosion, dust of sneezing and choking; and potion of growth all only take 2 days and 50 gold each to make as an artificer by xanathar's rules meaning you could build up quite a supply if your dm lets you. Sneezing and choking is particularly good on artificer because that effect is nasty but curable with the plentiful access to lesser restoration that you have.
The campaign ended at 10th level, so never go to use a spell storing item.
What bonus action spell did you have in the ring of spell storing that made it consistently worth casting? The only artificier spell I can think of is magic stone and that seems a waste for a ring of spell storing when there are so many better options.
Either healing word if I wanted to do more healing or sanctuary so the homunculus could shield itself without requiring my slots but the way ring of spell storing works is that any member of the team could cast spells into it for the homunculus to use so you could have any spell.
Healing word makes sense for additional healing, but sanctuary seems pointless if the familiar or anyone else is really doing anything more than hiding or heaing, which sadly enough forces the alchemist into heal bot mode.
Well you can have the homunculus take the heal bot role and keep sanctuary on it. It also protects it while it takes the help action. Also like I said it could take spells from any one. Some other good bonus action spells are :
You could also give it action spells but the 3 spells a turn trick requires a bonus action spell.
Heat metal might be good too as you could potentially command it to take its bonus action to deal damage and cast a spell with a single bonus action.
Still not seeing 3 spells per round. You can cast as an action and command the homunculus as a bonus action to use its action to cast.
Unless you are counting a reaction spell like shield.
The homunculus only dodges unless ordered to do something with it's action. It can only do 1 thing besides moving.
There are a few good uses I've found that uses alch 3 and then multis into other classes.
-alch 5/ scribe 2 taking the feat artificers initiate: use this to turn a magic missile from the scribe into fire dmg cast through alch tools so you can add the mod (or die idr right now) to the roll to super buff MM
-alch 3/ barb X: drink enhanced potion then rage since RAW doing this first turn would work due to there never counting a "previous turn" (this is a ymmv though) so it would still allow for your barb to dmg the following turn within rage.
-alch 3/ moon druid X: the potion action then transform. What potion? your choice of what you prepped before I suppose.
alch 3/ thief 3: fast hands to drink the potion since it itself does not appear to be magical, but again ymmv.
These are the main ones that come to mind right now. Once that Hadozzee race comes out no thief levels needed.
'Use an object' doesn't include using a potion, at least per RAW as using a potion is already defined as an action.
The other options are also questionable.Its one roll of damge not per missle so it would be: MM 3d4+3 ave: 10.5 +5 for buff = 15.5. Versus a tier 2 firebolt 2d10 ave: 11 +5 = 16.
The barb and druid have the same weakness. You're giving up a full action to down a potioin vs attacking. Now if you're moving into position or some other scennario where you wouldn't use your action then 'ok'.
Use an Object (PHB p. 193)
When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action.
This constitutes the aspect of an elixer to be used since as stated it is an action to consume and it is not a magical item. As RAW this works.
As for the MM it is one roll, correct. Which when you cast MM you only roll 1 die then apply that dmg for all missiles per Jeremy Crawford. Thus MM at 1st level without shenanigans is 1d4+1 X3, lvl 2 is x4, etc.So this as well would work. So the artscribe casting MM at lvl 1 using the trick (assuming int of 20) would be 1d4+6 (1+5 from int mod) x3. the average dmg from this would be 2.5+6=8.5 x 3 = 25.5 avg dmg.
As for the others yes you are giving up your first turn dmg round, to create the set up for an enhanced turns later on.
I've never played at a table that used that rule for MM or similar spells, neither normal play or organized play. I'm not saying others don't, I've just never seen it.
Edited: The roll 1 dice is only if the spell targets multiple enemies. If all 3 magic missiles target 1 enemy it goes back to 3d4+3+5 (assuming int 20) - at least RAW PHB p196. Which means if you targeted 2 enemies you would still roll (1d4+1) x 3 + 5 and choose which enemy got the +5.
Read experimental elixir. It specifies:
"As an action, a creature can drink the elixir or administer it to an incapacitated creature."
The point about giving up your action to use an elixir, is two fold. 1 - you're giving up your action (spell, attack) and rarely is that worth a potion. 2-the elixirs, while ok at tier 1, very quickly lose potency to the point they're worthless at higher tiers.