In my view any utilisation of these downtime days could constitute a "significant sacrifice".
Yeah, while training in additional tool proficiencies is an option, Fateless is underestimating the difficulty of doing so a bit, unless their DM's are handing them out like candy?
I mean, your average adventure may not represent all that long a span of time, most of which will be adventuring, and don't exactly give you a wealth of opportunities to learn new instruments; you're not likely to find anywhere to learn one in Barovia during Curse of Strahd, and it might be hard to find any in the Jungles of Chult during Tomb of Annihilation and so-on.
In the groups I've played the only extra training we've had was mission specific (so DM granted it as a matter of a few days at extra expense to learn just how to play Your Beardy Wife for a magic door), otherwise we occasionally get a few days of time between discrete quest segments, but a lot of that is "on the road" or not necessarily at a fully equipped city where we can find anything we could possibly want, so not necessarily ideal for training unless your DM allows books to count.
So definitely not a simple or trivial thing to acquire unless your DM makes it so; for the suggested system, while 250 gp might be chump change at higher levels, 250 days is not.
Barovia would be a good place to pick up things like the violin, accordion or even Piano (as I recall there is even a Piano mentioned in one of the quest direction possibilities in Curse of Strahd and there is another in Strahd's castle). Chult would be excellent for Drums and perhaps fluted or perhaps some of the wind instruments some of which date back to primitive cultures.
Just because you can't learn them all And your party didn't bother to take the time to consider doing such things does not actually mean they are not possible. Many Groups rush past a lot of options that should actually be available to them. Even in some of the Printed Modules that DM's are usually welcome to add in if they fit in thematically. But many groups dont' even bother to learn or attempt to use all the things even written down or provided for in some of those modules to begin with let alone the things that aren't.
The Training is also something that you can technically split up those 250 days over time to get that knowledge in. There is nothing about it that says that it has to be done all at once. Depending on what your doing it might even be possible to learn some of these things on the road. A Wandering Musician could be an interesting teacher to include into things to give the player something else to do with their travel time for example.
much of the party could probably learn a couple of them in that period that for some reason your party Fighter or Paladin insists on Making their own Full Plate Mail because it's cheaper and they can afford it at level 4 instead of level 6 or 7. This is a real world example that I've dealt with more than once. Even in 5e groups, and not all of them my couple of long standing groups that have played since 2e and 3.x days.
Also while 250 days is what is in the book. There is always room for you to talk to your DM to discuss shortening that period for something more reasonable for the pace of your game.
... Also while 250 days is what is in the book. There is always room for you to talk to your DM to discuss shortening that period for something more reasonable for the pace of your game.
There is always room for a DM to lengthen that period to reflect the significant gain you get, but if you're determined to achieve a situation in which
... Also while 250 days is what is in the book. There is always room for you to talk to your DM to discuss shortening that period for something more reasonable for the pace of your game.
There is always room for a DM to lengthen that period to reflect the significant gain you get, but if you're determined to achieve a situation in which
... Proficiency in Tools is one of the easiest things to pick up that there is. ....,
you can try what you like.
Even with a 250 day period should you rigidly stick to it. That is still easier to pick up than either a level in a class or a Feat which can only be picked up at certain levels in a class. So it does not change my statement in any capacity. It is still the easiest thing there is that you can functionally learn to do. Also because tools tend to be relatively niche. There isn't necessariy the significance that your trying to give it to justify the lengthening of the time. Since again it is less significant than what characters would pick up at most levels or feats that they would aquire at certain levels. So the argument for legthening it could be argued for but has less merit than politely speaking with a DM about perhaps shortening it to fit the pace of a game.
... Also while 250 days is what is in the book. There is always room for you to talk to your DM to discuss shortening that period for something more reasonable for the pace of your game.
There is always room for a DM to lengthen that period to reflect the significant gain you get, but if you're determined to achieve a situation in which
... Proficiency in Tools is one of the easiest things to pick up that there is. ....,
you can try what you like.
Even with a 250 day period should you rigidly stick to it. That is still easier to pick up than either a level in a class or a Feat which can only be picked up at certain levels in a class. So it does not change my statement in any capacity. It is still the easiest thing there is that you can functionally learn to do. Also because tools tend to be relatively niche. There isn't necessariy the significance that your trying to give it to justify the lengthening of the time. Since again it is less significant than what characters would pick up at most levels or feats that they would aquire at certain levels. So the argument for legthening it could be argued for but has less merit than politely speaking with a DM about perhaps shortening it to fit the pace of a game.
You can politely speak with a DM about anything you like but remember the 250 day period is not a given. For "training with a set of tools... The DM determines how long it takes, and whether one or more ability checks are required."
The Guild Artisan background offers only one tool proficiency and that's for a backstory's worth of dedication to a craft so, yes, I'd agree that the second part of the PHb ruling makes it relatively easy to "pick up".
Barovia would be a good place to pick up things like the violin, accordion or even Piano (as I recall there is even a Piano mentioned in one of the quest direction possibilities in Curse of Strahd and there is another in Strahd's castle). Chult would be excellent for Drums and perhaps fluted or perhaps some of the wind instruments some of which date back to primitive cultures.
There being violins and pianos and people who play them isn't going to be much comfort if those people are murdered by vampires before you've spent the 250 days learning to play them; you're not in a Domain of Relaxation and Unlimited Downtime. Likewise while making your way through the jungle to the Tomb of Annihilation you're going to learn the drums where and when exactly? Especially if it's going to take 250 days? I tried to learn violin but it was tricky just to attend one class a week without interruption, and I was still terrible at it when I finally gave up.
Even if you massively shorten the training times (as a DM is allowed to do) you're still completely ignoring that these are not easy or quick things to obtain; there is a significant opportunity cost that you seem to want to ignore. Even with the timing stripped down, some campaigns don't last all that long in reality unless your DM injects a lot of downtime or travelling time (and allows downtime activities while travelling); Rime of the Frostmaiden for example is pretty high stakes from early on, while it can take a few days to travel between the ten towns, you're not in ideal conditions for learning an instrument while this is happening.
And even if we accepted that they're super easy, barely an inconvenience to learn, the Bard still has a big headstart; while the artificer is learning their third instrument, a Bard can be learning their 6th, or actually using the ones they already know to make money rather than spending more of it. Unless your DM is saying "just add as many proficiencies as you want whenever" (which definitely isn't rules as intended) then there is always a cost to get one.
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I find it really weird that, after entire backgrounds may, at best, provide two tool proficiencies, that the PHB presents this:
It seems even weirder to me that the training for tool proficiencies text first says that "The DM determines how long it takes, and whether one or more ability checks are required" but then says "The training lasts for 250 days and costs 1 gp per day."
To clarify, the first line is about finding a teacher, the second about learning the skill.
Barovia would be a good place to pick up things like the violin, accordion or even Piano (as I recall there is even a Piano mentioned in one of the quest direction possibilities in Curse of Strahd and there is another in Strahd's castle). Chult would be excellent for Drums and perhaps fluted or perhaps some of the wind instruments some of which date back to primitive cultures.
Just because you can't learn them all And your party didn't bother to take the time to consider doing such things does not actually mean they are not possible. Many Groups rush past a lot of options that should actually be available to them. Even in some of the Printed Modules that DM's are usually welcome to add in if they fit in thematically. But many groups dont' even bother to learn or attempt to use all the things even written down or provided for in some of those modules to begin with let alone the things that aren't.
The Training is also something that you can technically split up those 250 days over time to get that knowledge in. There is nothing about it that says that it has to be done all at once. Depending on what your doing it might even be possible to learn some of these things on the road. A Wandering Musician could be an interesting teacher to include into things to give the player something else to do with their travel time for example.
much of the party could probably learn a couple of them in that period that for some reason your party Fighter or Paladin insists on Making their own Full Plate Mail because it's cheaper and they can afford it at level 4 instead of level 6 or 7. This is a real world example that I've dealt with more than once. Even in 5e groups, and not all of them my couple of long standing groups that have played since 2e and 3.x days.
Also while 250 days is what is in the book. There is always room for you to talk to your DM to discuss shortening that period for something more reasonable for the pace of your game.
I can’t imagine that related instruments should both take 250 days. If you’ve learned the banjo, you shouldn’t have to learn the guitar from scratch.
There is always room for a DM to lengthen that period to reflect the significant gain you get, but if you're determined to achieve a situation in which
you can try what you like.
Even with a 250 day period should you rigidly stick to it. That is still easier to pick up than either a level in a class or a Feat which can only be picked up at certain levels in a class. So it does not change my statement in any capacity. It is still the easiest thing there is that you can functionally learn to do. Also because tools tend to be relatively niche. There isn't necessariy the significance that your trying to give it to justify the lengthening of the time. Since again it is less significant than what characters would pick up at most levels or feats that they would aquire at certain levels. So the argument for legthening it could be argued for but has less merit than politely speaking with a DM about perhaps shortening it to fit the pace of a game.
You can politely speak with a DM about anything you like but remember the 250 day period is not a given. For "training with a set of tools... The DM determines how long it takes, and whether one or more ability checks are required."
The Guild Artisan background offers only one tool proficiency and that's for a backstory's worth of dedication to a craft so, yes, I'd agree that the second part of the PHb ruling makes it relatively easy to "pick up".
There being violins and pianos and people who play them isn't going to be much comfort if those people are murdered by vampires before you've spent the 250 days learning to play them; you're not in a Domain of Relaxation and Unlimited Downtime. Likewise while making your way through the jungle to the Tomb of Annihilation you're going to learn the drums where and when exactly? Especially if it's going to take 250 days? I tried to learn violin but it was tricky just to attend one class a week without interruption, and I was still terrible at it when I finally gave up.
Even if you massively shorten the training times (as a DM is allowed to do) you're still completely ignoring that these are not easy or quick things to obtain; there is a significant opportunity cost that you seem to want to ignore. Even with the timing stripped down, some campaigns don't last all that long in reality unless your DM injects a lot of downtime or travelling time (and allows downtime activities while travelling); Rime of the Frostmaiden for example is pretty high stakes from early on, while it can take a few days to travel between the ten towns, you're not in ideal conditions for learning an instrument while this is happening.
And even if we accepted that they're super easy, barely an inconvenience to learn, the Bard still has a big headstart; while the artificer is learning their third instrument, a Bard can be learning their 6th, or actually using the ones they already know to make money rather than spending more of it. Unless your DM is saying "just add as many proficiencies as you want whenever" (which definitely isn't rules as intended) then there is always a cost to get one.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
To clarify, the first line is about finding a teacher, the second about learning the skill.