The part you missed is that the Thunder Gauntlets are now treated as a weapon, which is separate from armor *by definition*. You don't see any weapons in the Armor and Shield section of the Equipment chapter. Just Armor and shield. By becoming Weapons, the gauntlets are no longer armor.
Based on that logic, the following statement is true: "Since a Lizardfolk's bite is treated as a weapon, it counts as being separate from you, the Lizardfolk, *by definition*. Becoming a weapon, the bite is no longer part of the Lizardfolk."
Nothing about the text as written makes the gauntlets be separated from the armor. There is no reason to RAW that a piece of armor cannot be both a piece of armor and a weapon.
Any way to get back on topic of the subclass? There were 4 posts before the thread devolved into a 2 1/2 page argument over semantics.
We are on topic right now. We're discussing whether RAW you can use BB/GFB with the Thunder Gauntlets. If you want, you can give your thoughts on the official Armorer. I may sometime in the near future.
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Could you point me to the page in the any official 5e sourcebook where it lists "Gauntlets" as a buyable item? The basic items in the books are there for a reason, which is to standardize organized play. Here is another fun one that will really make people annoyed: Per RAW the Helm of Awareness currently cannot be infused as it requires a Helm, which does not exist as a buyable item. RAW is really stupid sometimes.
No one here is arguing that Lightning Gauntlets shouldn't work with the cantrips per the Rules as Intended, but they currently do not per Rules as Written no matter how much people rail against that truth. Even bad DMs will just hand wave this away and move along, but AL for the sake of balance doesn't care because it has to be consistent, so it will stick with RAW no matter how inane or stupid they are.
Can you point me to the page in any official 5e sourcebook where it lists "Adamantine Ingots" or "Giant Lizards" as a buyable item? The basic items in the books are there for a reason, to provide a simple table of some of the more important items that can be bought. If you assume that the only items that can be bought in D&D 5e are the ones listed in the PHB, you will be left in a game where there are less than 200 mundane items that you can buy.
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You are absolutely correct that there are very few items that can be bought and played with in an AL game, this is by design, and RAW it is what it is. The irony of this whole debate is that logic isn't required here, the rules are written as they are and trying to extrapolate what was intended is moot, RAI and RAW are not the same thing. No one is stopping you from getting your homegame DM for allowing you to buy mundane gauntlets, but if you go to an AL game, no mundane gauntlets for you!
Wail against the wall of the rules all you want, unless it gets errated, RAW GFB and BB do not work with Thunder Gauntlets.
BZZT! And I'll tell you why. An Armorer can make "leather armor" their power armor and thus have Thunder Gauntlets even though the leather armor does not come with gauntlets. It doesn't make any sense, yes I know, but the RAW doesn't care.
Gauntlets do not exist as a discrete item in the PHB or any other legal sourcebook for AL, thus they have no defined value, and thus they cannot be used for BB or GFB per RAW.
That's only specifically for the leather armor. If its plate armor (or any other armor that has gauntlets), RAW it works.
Repeat after me, "Weapons without a discrete listing in a rulebook do not have a set value and thus do not work with the cantrips." Say it as many times as you need to until it sinks in, or better yet play an Armorer in an AL game and get smacked down by the RAW.
Second, you said above that "An Armorer can make "leather armor" their power armor and thus have Thunder Gauntlets even though the leather armor does not come with gauntlets." This right here is wrong. An armorer cannot turn a single piece of Leather Armor into their power armor. It clearly states in the feature that it must be a Suit of Armor. A suit meaning that it includes gauntlets, boots and a helm.
Just so you don't think I'm making this up, I'll copy the feature for you to read at your leisure. And incase you are wondering, yes you can have leather gauntlets if you'd like I can post a picture for you, but since you're most likely just going to shove your head up your own ass so you don't have to see this, I guess I'll leave that for you to find if you are so curious.
Your metallurgical pursuits have led to you making armor a conduit for your magic. As an action, you can turn a suit of armor you are wearing into Arcane Armor, provided you have smith’s tools in hand.
You gain the following benefits while wearing this armor:
If the armor normally has a Strength requirement, the arcane armor lacks this requirement for you.
You can use the arcane armor as a spellcasting focus for your artificer spells.
The armor attaches to you and can’t be removed against your will. It also expands to cover your entire body, although you can retract or deploy the helmet as a bonus action. The armor replaces any missing limbs, functioning identically to a limb it replaces.
You can doff or don the armor as an action.
The armor continues to be Arcane Armor until you don another suit of armor or you die.
Second, you said above that "An Armorer can make "leather armor" their power armor and thus have Thunder Gauntlets even though the leather armor does not come with gauntlets." This right here is wrong. An armorer cannot turn a single piece of Leather Armor into their power armor. It clearly states in the feature that it must be a Suit of Armor. A suit meaning that it includes gauntlets, boots and a helm.
Just so you don't think I'm making this up, I'll copy the feature for you to read at your leisure. And incase you are wondering, yes you can have leather gauntlets if you'd like I can post a picture for you, but since you're most likely just going to shove your head up your own ass so you don't have to see this, I guess I'll leave that for you to find if you are so curious.
Your metallurgical pursuits have led to you making armor a conduit for your magic. As an action, you can turn a suit of armor you are wearing into Arcane Armor, provided you have smith’s tools in hand.
You gain the following benefits while wearing this armor:
If the armor normally has a Strength requirement, the arcane armor lacks this requirement for you.
You can use the arcane armor as a spellcasting focus for your artificer spells.
The armor attaches to you and can’t be removed against your will. It also expands to cover your entire body, although you can retract or deploy the helmet as a bonus action. The armor replaces any missing limbs, functioning identically to a limb it replaces.
You can doff or don the armor as an action.
The armor continues to be Arcane Armor until you don another suit of armor or you die.
yes, but in the UA it specified Heavy Armor. a distinction that is very noticably NOT in Tasha's, which means that Leather Armor, as defined by the PHB, is in fact a valid target for Arcane Armor. It doesn't come with gauntlets, but by being turned INTO Arcane Armor, it now gains Thunder Gauntlets. Aka, these gauntlets just come out of nowhere and nothing. Also, if you were to have your arm chopped off, your Arcane Armor would automagically make a new arm for you while you were wearing it... which means that the Leather Armor that is your Arcane Armor just produces a whole new arm, complete with a new Thunder Gauntlet manifested from nothing.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
You are correct that it does not specifically say that Heavy Armor is required, but it does say that they need a Suit of Armor. A suit of Armor is more than just the chest piece
You are correct that it does not specifically say that Heavy Armor is required, but it does say that they need a Suit of Armor. A suit of Armor is more than just the chest piece
and yet Leather Armor, which has a definition in the PHB, is a valid target for Arcane Armor. so it still automagically produces Thunder Gauntlets from nothing, can replace your arm from nothing, replace your leg from nothing, etc etc. there are no individual gauntlets to purchase, Leather Armor doesn't come with gauntlets, and yet here it is.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Leather Armor, as defined by the PHB, is in fact a valid target for Arcane Armor. It doesn't come with gauntlets, but by being turned INTO Arcane Armor, it now gains Thunder Gauntlets. Aka, these gauntlets just come out of nowhere and nothing.
As TakaiSakage rightly points out, the feature requires a suit of armour which means it would need to be leather armour that your DM has ruled includes more than just the chest-piece/shoulders mentioned in the description. The arcane armour feature very clearly wants to be wearing a full suit of armour, this is further reinforced by its ability to effectively replace missing limbs.
Even if you followed your logic though that you gain the gauntlets as part of the feature, it still doesn't apply; the thunder gauntlets description states "each of the armor's gauntlets", it doesn't say "you gain a set of gauntlets which do X", it very explicitly assumes that either the armour already has an integrated set of gauntlets, or that it gains an integrated set as part of becoming your arcane armour, either way the gauntlets would still be part of the armour, whether the set you originally used had them or not. Leather armour with integrated gauntlets is still leather armour.
All of this is in RAW; the only sticking point identified so far is that a DM shouldn't let you take armour that doesn't already have gauntlets (or should at least require you to modify it first). None of this causes the armour to have no value or the gauntlets to cease to be a part of the armour to which they belong.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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Leather Armor, as defined by the PHB, is in fact a valid target for Arcane Armor. It doesn't come with gauntlets, but by being turned INTO Arcane Armor, it now gains Thunder Gauntlets. Aka, these gauntlets just come out of nowhere and nothing.
As TakaiSakage rightly points out, the feature requires a suit of armour which means it would need to be leather armour that your DM has ruled includes more than just the chest-piece/shoulders mentioned in the description. The arcane armour feature very clearly wants to be wearing a full suit of armour, this is further reinforced by its ability to effectively replace missing limbs.
Even if you followed your logic though that you gain the gauntlets as part of the feature, it still doesn't apply; the thunder gauntlets description states "each of the armor's gauntlets", it doesn't say "you gain a set of gauntlets which do X", it very explicitly assumes that either the armour already has an integrated set of gauntlets, or that it gains an integrated set as part of becoming your arcane armour, either way the gauntlets would still be part of the armour, whether the set you originally used had them or not. Leather armour with integrated gauntlets is still leather armour.
All of this is in RAW; the only sticking point identified so far is that a DM shouldn't let you take armour that doesn't already have gauntlets (or should at least require you to modify it first). None of this causes the armour to have no value or the gauntlets to cease to be a part of the armour to which they belong.
Even if we followed my logic, making the Leather Armor into Arcane Armor still generates gauntlets out of nowhere because, even if your arm is cut off, your armor (once again) automagically creates a new arm for you with a new Thunder Gauntlet. Where is the defined value of a Thunder Gauntlet in the rules as written? I see nothing assigning it a value, whether on its own or from its armor. Because you can take any old piece of light armor missing arm armor or gauntlets, make Arcane Armor, and it will make whole new limbs for you, including whatever weapon the armor uses.
I just want to explicitly state: Rules as *Intended*, I agree, they would share the same value as the armor they are made from. But show me where in the rules it is explicitly written that is the case. Because how DnD tends to go: If it doesn't say anything about it, then it doesn't happen. If it doesn't say they have a value, then the value is effectively null.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Pretty sure it says the armor will replace any of your missing limbs not that the suit of armor will suddenly grow a new piece of itself. Meaning you still need a full Suit of armor to use this feature not that you take a piece of a suit and it creates the rest. If you're missing limbs then the suit would function in place of those missing appendages.
Pretty sure it says the armor will replace any of your missing limbs not that the suit of armor will suddenly grow a new piece of itself. Meaning you still need a full Suit of armor to use this feature not that you take a piece of a suit and it creates the rest. If you're missing limbs then the suit would function in place of those missing appendages.
The armor attaches to you and can’t be removed against your will. It also expands to cover your entire body, although you can retract or deploy the helmet as a bonus action. The armor replaces any missing limbs, functioning identically to a limb it replaces.
Everything in bold indicates to me that the armor literally does grow a new piece of itself, expanding to cover your whole body as necessary, including generating new weapons as necessary if your arm gets cut off. repeatedly in a turn even.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Even if we followed my logic, making the Leather Armor into Arcane Armor still generates gauntlets out of nowhere because, even if your arm is cut off, your armor (once again) automagically creates a new arm for you with a new Thunder Gauntlet. Where is the defined value of a Thunder Gauntlet in the rules as written? I see nothing assigning it a value, whether on its own or from its armor. Because you can take any old piece of light armor missing arm armor or gauntlets, make Arcane Armor, and it will make whole new limbs for you, including whatever weapon the armor uses.
It's not the Thunder Gauntlets that replace the missing limb(s), it's the Arcane Armour; i.e- a single set of armour that must either already cover those missing limbs (already includes gauntlets), or extends to cover them (gains gauntlets as part of the armour). The armour must have gauntlets either way.
All that the Thunder Gauntlets feature does is take that existing set of gauntlets and lets them count as simple melee weapons, that's it. It doesn't say "you gain a set of gauntlets", there's no implication that they are or become a separate item at any point in RAW. The gauntlets are a part of a set of armour, your armour has a value (and it's right there in the equipment section), thus your gauntlet attacks are weapons with a defined value.
The danger of asking to know where in the book there's a value for thunder gauntlets is it opens the door to other cases but there's no clear reason in RAW that something that's part of an item with defined value must also have a defined value of its own, especially when the feature in question gives no reason to expect that to be a requirement; the gauntlets are part of the armour, the armour is what you're attacking with. If I stab someone with only the point of a rapier, I'm still attacking them with the rapier.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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Even if we followed my logic, making the Leather Armor into Arcane Armor still generates gauntlets out of nowhere because, even if your arm is cut off, your armor (once again) automagically creates a new arm for you with a new Thunder Gauntlet. Where is the defined value of a Thunder Gauntlet in the rules as written? I see nothing assigning it a value, whether on its own or from its armor. Because you can take any old piece of light armor missing arm armor or gauntlets, make Arcane Armor, and it will make whole new limbs for you, including whatever weapon the armor uses.
It's not the Thunder Gauntlets that replace the missing limb(s), it's the Arcane Armour; i.e- a single set of armour that must either already cover those missing limbs, or extends to cover them. As a result, the armour includes gauntlets no matter what.
All that the Thunder Gauntlets feature does is take that existing set of gauntlets and lets them count as simple melee weapons, that's it. It doesn't say "you gain a set of gauntlets", there's no implication that they are or become a separate item at any point in RAW. The gauntlets are a part of a set of armour, your armour has a value (and it's right there in the equipment section), your gauntlet attacks are weapons with a value.
If you're going to go around demanding to know where a feature name is listed in the equipment section then you're setting a precedent to invalidate a massive number of class and sub-class features, and there isn't anything in RAW to justify doing so.
extending to cover them... as in extending to cover something that no longer exists, generating a new gauntlet which is then treated as a Thunder Gauntlet. *hmmm*
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
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Based on that logic, the following statement is true: "Since a Lizardfolk's bite is treated as a weapon, it counts as being separate from you, the Lizardfolk, *by definition*. Becoming a weapon, the bite is no longer part of the Lizardfolk."
Nothing about the text as written makes the gauntlets be separated from the armor. There is no reason to RAW that a piece of armor cannot be both a piece of armor and a weapon.
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Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Any way to get back on topic of the subclass? There were 4 posts before the thread devolved into a 2 1/2 page argument over semantics.
We are on topic right now. We're discussing whether RAW you can use BB/GFB with the Thunder Gauntlets. If you want, you can give your thoughts on the official Armorer. I may sometime in the near future.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Welcome to Rules as Written and Adventurer's League!
You are absolutely correct that there are very few items that can be bought and played with in an AL game, this is by design, and RAW it is what it is. The irony of this whole debate is that logic isn't required here, the rules are written as they are and trying to extrapolate what was intended is moot, RAI and RAW are not the same thing. No one is stopping you from getting your homegame DM for allowing you to buy mundane gauntlets, but if you go to an AL game, no mundane gauntlets for you!
Wail against the wall of the rules all you want, unless it gets errated, RAW GFB and BB do not work with Thunder Gauntlets.
But, as Haravikk pointed out, gauntlets are bought as part of plate armor, thus they contribute to the value of the armor bought.
Also, as pointed out earlier in the thread, even AL, which is supposed to be strictly RAW, has to interpret the rules.
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BZZT! And I'll tell you why. An Armorer can make "leather armor" their power armor and thus have Thunder Gauntlets even though the leather armor does not come with gauntlets. It doesn't make any sense, yes I know, but the RAW doesn't care.
Gauntlets do not exist as a discrete item in the PHB or any other legal sourcebook for AL, thus they have no defined value, and thus they cannot be used for BB or GFB per RAW.
That's only specifically for the leather armor. If its plate armor (or any other armor that has gauntlets), RAW it works.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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Repeat after me, "Weapons without a discrete listing in a rulebook do not have a set value and thus do not work with the cantrips." Say it as many times as you need to until it sinks in, or better yet play an Armorer in an AL game and get smacked down by the RAW.
[REDACTED]
Second, you said above that "An Armorer can make "leather armor" their power armor and thus have Thunder Gauntlets even though the leather armor does not come with gauntlets." This right here is wrong. An armorer cannot turn a single piece of Leather Armor into their power armor. It clearly states in the feature that it must be a Suit of Armor. A suit meaning that it includes gauntlets, boots and a helm.
Just so you don't think I'm making this up, I'll copy the feature for you to read at your leisure. And incase you are wondering, yes you can have leather gauntlets if you'd like I can post a picture for you, but since you're most likely just going to shove your head up your own ass so you don't have to see this, I guess I'll leave that for you to find if you are so curious.
yes, but in the UA it specified Heavy Armor. a distinction that is very noticably NOT in Tasha's, which means that Leather Armor, as defined by the PHB, is in fact a valid target for Arcane Armor. It doesn't come with gauntlets, but by being turned INTO Arcane Armor, it now gains Thunder Gauntlets. Aka, these gauntlets just come out of nowhere and nothing. Also, if you were to have your arm chopped off, your Arcane Armor would automagically make a new arm for you while you were wearing it... which means that the Leather Armor that is your Arcane Armor just produces a whole new arm, complete with a new Thunder Gauntlet manifested from nothing.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
You are correct that it does not specifically say that Heavy Armor is required, but it does say that they need a Suit of Armor. A suit of Armor is more than just the chest piece
and yet Leather Armor, which has a definition in the PHB, is a valid target for Arcane Armor. so it still automagically produces Thunder Gauntlets from nothing, can replace your arm from nothing, replace your leg from nothing, etc etc. there are no individual gauntlets to purchase, Leather Armor doesn't come with gauntlets, and yet here it is.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
As TakaiSakage rightly points out, the feature requires a suit of armour which means it would need to be leather armour that your DM has ruled includes more than just the chest-piece/shoulders mentioned in the description. The arcane armour feature very clearly wants to be wearing a full suit of armour, this is further reinforced by its ability to effectively replace missing limbs.
Even if you followed your logic though that you gain the gauntlets as part of the feature, it still doesn't apply; the thunder gauntlets description states "each of the armor's gauntlets", it doesn't say "you gain a set of gauntlets which do X", it very explicitly assumes that either the armour already has an integrated set of gauntlets, or that it gains an integrated set as part of becoming your arcane armour, either way the gauntlets would still be part of the armour, whether the set you originally used had them or not. Leather armour with integrated gauntlets is still leather armour.
All of this is in RAW; the only sticking point identified so far is that a DM shouldn't let you take armour that doesn't already have gauntlets (or should at least require you to modify it first). None of this causes the armour to have no value or the gauntlets to cease to be a part of the armour to which they belong.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Just want to remind everyone that while health and respectful rules discussion is positively encouraged here, it must be just that; healthy and respectful. Do not attack other users, treat them with disrespect or discourtesy, or otherwise violate site rules.
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Even if we followed my logic, making the Leather Armor into Arcane Armor still generates gauntlets out of nowhere because, even if your arm is cut off, your armor (once again) automagically creates a new arm for you with a new Thunder Gauntlet. Where is the defined value of a Thunder Gauntlet in the rules as written? I see nothing assigning it a value, whether on its own or from its armor. Because you can take any old piece of light armor missing arm armor or gauntlets, make Arcane Armor, and it will make whole new limbs for you, including whatever weapon the armor uses.
I just want to explicitly state: Rules as *Intended*, I agree, they would share the same value as the armor they are made from. But show me where in the rules it is explicitly written that is the case. Because how DnD tends to go: If it doesn't say anything about it, then it doesn't happen. If it doesn't say they have a value, then the value is effectively null.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Pretty sure it says the armor will replace any of your missing limbs not that the suit of armor will suddenly grow a new piece of itself. Meaning you still need a full Suit of armor to use this feature not that you take a piece of a suit and it creates the rest. If you're missing limbs then the suit would function in place of those missing appendages.
The armor attaches to you and can’t be removed against your will. It also expands to cover your entire body, although you can retract or deploy the helmet as a bonus action. The armor replaces any missing limbs, functioning identically to a limb it replaces.
Everything in bold indicates to me that the armor literally does grow a new piece of itself, expanding to cover your whole body as necessary, including generating new weapons as necessary if your arm gets cut off. repeatedly in a turn even.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
It's not the Thunder Gauntlets that replace the missing limb(s), it's the Arcane Armour; i.e- a single set of armour that must either already cover those missing limbs (already includes gauntlets), or extends to cover them (gains gauntlets as part of the armour). The armour must have gauntlets either way.
All that the Thunder Gauntlets feature does is take that existing set of gauntlets and lets them count as simple melee weapons, that's it. It doesn't say "you gain a set of gauntlets", there's no implication that they are or become a separate item at any point in RAW. The gauntlets are a part of a set of armour, your armour has a value (and it's right there in the equipment section), thus your gauntlet attacks are weapons with a defined value.
The danger of asking to know where in the book there's a value for thunder gauntlets is it opens the door to other cases but there's no clear reason in RAW that something that's part of an item with defined value must also have a defined value of its own, especially when the feature in question gives no reason to expect that to be a requirement; the gauntlets are part of the armour, the armour is what you're attacking with. If I stab someone with only the point of a rapier, I'm still attacking them with the rapier.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
extending to cover them... as in extending to cover something that no longer exists, generating a new gauntlet which is then treated as a Thunder Gauntlet. *hmmm*
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"