I've been playing a Rogue/Barbarian for a while now, working my way towards Rogue 7/Barbarian 2. My thinking was mainly to get the Barbarian's Danger Sense stacking with the Rogue's Evasion (advantage on avoiding AOEs, etc), for Uncanny Dodge stacking on top of the regular Rage damage resistance against those big hits, and for Reckless Attack to help ensure I have advantage for Sneak Attack. For my Rogue I picked Swashbuckler, so I'm getting +CHA on my initiative rolls and can use Sneak Attack when I'm 1-on-1 thanks to Rakish Audacity, and Fancy Footwork gives me a bit of a hit-and-run mechanic to play with. This means I'm not having to use Disengage to avoid attacks of opportunity from things I've already whacked, so my bonus attack can be used for either a second hit (I dual-wield) or a Dash so I can keep out of melee with the target I just ran in and dropped a drive-by Sneak Attack on.
((My DM has also been kind enough to let me do Sneak Attack with handaxes: I know this is slightly OP (having thrown and finesse/sneak attack should only be possible with d4 daggers not d6 handaxes), but they're basically just shortswords 90% of the time, and between my mediocre stat roles and spending my feats on Dual Wielder and (Matt Mercer's) Thrown Arms Master instead of ASIs, the extra point of damage here and there gets lost in the noise somewhat.))
In terms of character/flavour, he's got pirate/viking vibes (hence the axes), and is a bit of a Han Solo type: Expertise in Deception/Persuasion, scrappy but will get the hell out of dodge when needed, etc. We're at level 9 now, so the build has clicked into the 7/2 format I was aiming for, and it's working pretty well: I'm able to hold my own 1-on-1 by either evading, avoiding, or reducing damage, and if my party has an enemy occupied I can swoop in for a cheeky sneak attack and then frolic away. It is a very weird and junky sort of build, and isn't optimised at all, but it seems to be holding up okay.
What I can't figure out is where to go next, though. Taking a few levels of Barbarian so I can get Extra Attack seems like a sensible move, so there's extra opportunities for Sneak Attack to trigger and for that extra 10 feet of movement speed on my hit-and-runs, and that puts me right up against the level 6 Path abilities too. I'm a little bit stuck on what the best path option for this build would be, though?
Totem Warrior has a couple of attractive prospects. The added resistance from Bear totem at level 3 would drastically up my survivability against non-physical stuff, which we're increasingly coming up against at level 9; whereas the Elk totem would make my walking speed 45 feet while raging (55 feet by level 5), upped to 110 feet using a Cunning Action to dash, which I'm sure our Monk would find deeply upsetting. My character's name is Glen Fiddich (like the whisky), so an Elk/Deer is pretty on brand, but with my squishy Rogue hit points, the Bear might be the more sensible mechanical choice. As for Aspect of the Beast, that disadvantage avoidance on Wisdom (Perception) from Eagle might be the best pick for Sneak Attack options? Although as a Rogue I'm already proficient (or better) in half the skill list already, so those two extra skills from Tiger - especially if I get as far as Reliable Talent for a Rogue? - might come in handy.
Zealot seems like another interesting option. Divine Fury is a similar mechanic to Sneak Attack, and it works even when Sneak Attack isn't an option for me, so it seems like something that would stack well with the rest of the build? It also says "with a weapon attack", so I assume that means it would work with thrown/ranged as well. Being able to be revivified without needing the pricy diamond from Warrior of the Gods seems handy too. The save reroll from Fanatical Focus seems nice, but I'm not sure it's enough to outweigh the benefits from one of the other paths.
Ancestral Guardian is something that fits really well with the character's storyline, but I'm not 100% sure about how the Ancestral Protectors ability works. Looking at the RAW, it seems like it is an ability that always activates, which seems like a great way for the party tank to draw aggro, but I'm not sure that's a smart move with my squishy Rogue hit points. (It seems like it would stack great with the Wolf ability from Totem Warrior, but sadly you can't get both of those at once!) Spirit Shield sounds interesting - it's similar to Uncanny Dodge but applied to my allies; but I don't know that this build is survivable enough to survive with that "taunt" feature constantly firing off. Maybe once Fast Movement kicks in, and I'm fast enough to reliably get in and out of the danger zone every turn?
tl;dr - Do any of the level 3-6 Barbarian abilities seem like smart choices for a Rogue/Barbarian? Or would I be better off dipping over to Fighter in search of Extra Attack, picking up a Fighting Style and Action Surge along the way?
What the heck is your statline? And how do you fight? With the Dual Wielder feat, you should be dual wielding rapiers, but then you say you're using hand-axes. Do you actually throw them? Because throwing weapons require extra attention to get working - and not for nothing, your rage damage, and much more importantly Reckless Attack, won't apply to them when thrown. You mentioned Extra Attack. Throwing 3 weapons on your turn reliably requires a fighting style you can get from Fighter 1.
EDIT: I just looked up your Thrown Arms Master ability. Assuming my source is correct - I used a wiki - TAM means your scimitars have the Thrown property, which means your hand-axes are just reskinned scimitars with increased range. If you want to lean into the increased range, Ancestral Guardian is the pro move, but you really want Fighter 1 before you take Barbarian 5, so you can grab the Thrown fighting style.
What the heck is your statline? And how do you fight? With the Dual Wielder feat, you should be dual wielding rapiers, but then you say you're using hand-axes. Do you actually throw them? Because throwing weapons require extra attention to get working - and not for nothing, your rage damage, and much more importantly Reckless Attack, won't apply to them when thrown. You mentioned Extra Attack. Throwing 3 weapons on your turn reliably requires a fighting style you can get from Fighter 1.
EDIT: I just looked up your Thrown Arms Master ability. Assuming my source is correct - I used a wiki - TAM means your scimitars have the Thrown property, which means your hand-axes are just reskinned scimitars with increased range. If you want to lean into the increased range, Ancestral Guardian is the pro move, but you really want Fighter 1 before you take Barbarian 5, so you can grab the Thrown fighting style.
What the heck is your statline? My stats are pretty garbage. I don't exactly remember what I rolled (it was years ago), but after taking Dual Wielder as a Variant Human at 1st and Thrown Arms Master at 4th, my stats are now 16/15/12/8/10/14. Next opportunity I'll probably be picking up a feat that includes a +1 to Dex to round that off. Yes, I "should" have spent all of my feats on ASIs because of how my stats came out, but I picked fun/interesting over min/maxing.
How do you fight? Like I mentioned, my handaxes are basically functioning like shortswords (or scimitars) 90% of the time. We're treating them as "scimitars with the thrown property" or "handaxes with the finesse property", however you want to frame that. Yes, rapiers would be the min/max option, but because my character is more of a Viking style pirate, axes felt like the more appropriate choice. Most of the time I am using them at melee range, but being able to throw the axes is really useful against flying opponents, and things that move too quickly for me to keep up. Right before I took the Thrown Arms Master feat, we were being harassed by witches on broomsticks quite a lot, and I wasn't particularly effective in those fights. Leaning into the thrown aspect of the axes seemed more on brand than switching over to a ranged weapon, so I played into the story. It's worked pretty well so far: along the way we've had a number of weapons and items cross our path which pair pretty well with the thrown aspect, so it works just fine for me. Yeah, Rapiers would be better 90% of the time... but only 1 point of damage better on average, and character vibes wins out over 1 point of damage.
You really want Fighter 1 I'm definitely planning on it, though I will probably take Two-Weapon Fighting rather than Thrown Weapon Fighting. Yeah, +2 damage on both weapons (when thrown) is the bigger number, but the +3 damage on the off-hand axe from Two-Weapon Fighting seems like it would win out on average: it applies to thrown and not thrown, I can boost it further by boosting my stats, etc. I'm also hesitant about taking Fighter 1 next, because that a) delays Extra Attack and Fast Movement, but also b) delays my next feat/ASI. Picking my Barbarian path is also something with some story significance attached to it, whereas Fighter is more of a quick dabble; getting that Path decided on and locked in gives the character more direction, and the DM something to work with. Not the min/max choice, but it's still part of my decision-making.
A lot of cool options, but you can never go wrong with Bear Totem Barb. You already have good damage (no need for Zealot) and versatility (no need for Elk Totem or Ancestral Guardian).
You really want Fighter 1 I'm definitely planning on it, though I will probably take Two-Weapon Fighting rather than Thrown Weapon Fighting. Yeah, +2 damage on both weapons (when thrown) is the bigger number, but the +3 damage on the off-hand axe from Two-Weapon Fighting seems like it would win out on average: it applies to thrown and not thrown, I can boost it further by boosting my stats, etc. I'm also hesitant about taking Fighter 1 next, because that a) delays Extra Attack and Fast Movement, but also b) delays my next feat/ASI. Picking my Barbarian path is also something with some story significance attached to it, whereas Fighter is more of a quick dabble; getting that Path decided on and locked in gives the character more direction, and the DM something to work with. Not the min/max choice, but it's still part of my decision-making.
If you don't take Thrown, then even with Dual Wielder you can only draw 2 weapons per round, but will want to throw 3. That's not sustainable.
You really want Fighter 1 I'm definitely planning on it, though I will probably take Two-Weapon Fighting rather than Thrown Weapon Fighting. Yeah, +2 damage on both weapons (when thrown) is the bigger number, but the +3 damage on the off-hand axe from Two-Weapon Fighting seems like it would win out on average: it applies to thrown and not thrown, I can boost it further by boosting my stats, etc. I'm also hesitant about taking Fighter 1 next, because that a) delays Extra Attack and Fast Movement, but also b) delays my next feat/ASI. Picking my Barbarian path is also something with some story significance attached to it, whereas Fighter is more of a quick dabble; getting that Path decided on and locked in gives the character more direction, and the DM something to work with. Not the min/max choice, but it's still part of my decision-making.
If you don't take Thrown, then even with Dual Wielder you can only draw 2 weapons per round, but will want to throw 3. That's not sustainable.
True, but the Thrown Arms Master feat means that if I miss with an attack, the weapon boomerangs around and returns to my hand. Since the main reason for using additional attacks as a Rogue is additional chances for Sneak Attack to trigger, if I make it all the way down to a third attack, there's a decent chance I've missed one or both of the earlier attacks, so there's no need to draw a third weapon: I'm already holding one or both of the earlier two. And if I manage to hit with one or both of my Attack action options, I'm not necessarily going to want to make a third attack with the bonus, since I can only do my Sneak Attack burst damage once - I'm just as likely to want to use a Cunning Action to Dash for some hit-and-run mobility, or to Steady Aim for advantage (or to overcome disadvantage), etc.
For sure, getting that +2 three times adds up to more than my ability modifier on the offhand... but if I'm making that bonus attack, there's a non-zero chance that I missed one or both of my Extra Attack chances: so in that instance, my ability score on the offhand outweighs the +2 from Thrown WM, and it also benefits me in melee as well as thrown. Maybe that'll be different when I have enough throwable magic weapons for some interesting effects to proc, but if that's the case I can always pick up Thrown Weapon Master via a feat, and have the benefit of both. Two-Weapon Fighting feels like the more valuable choice to me, at least in the short term.
Either way, what I'm really looking for is advice on a Barbarian path, regardless of if/when I take Fighter. You briefly mentioned Ancestral Guardians: my worry is that it feels like a very tank orientated ability, and I don't necessarily want to be pulling aggro away from our Battlemaster by being the one target folks don't have disadvantage on.
Either way, what I'm really looking for is advice on a Barbarian path, regardless of if/when I take Fighter. You briefly mentioned Ancestral Guardians: my worry is that it feels like a very tank orientated ability, and I don't necessarily want to be pulling aggro away from our Battlemaster by being the one target folks don't have disadvantage on.
Then don't tell your enemies they won't have disadvantage against you - your ancestors certainly won't spill the beans.
Totem is hard to beat - bear just brings too much to the table.
Having said that, as a Viking themed character, I'd be looking hard at Storm Herald - Sea. I'm a big believer in flavor/story driving character choices, with optimization coming second.
For me, I would go with Berserker for the frenzied rage and then either Champion or Battlemaster fighter after that. That puts you around level 13 and then do the rest in Swashbuckler.
There are other great choices defensively, like Bear totem and Ancestrial Guardians, but offensively the Berserker makes way more sense. Even if you don't take fighter, you are still hucking axes like a Hammer Bro so the exhaustion makes sense, but you get an extra attack a round, which means an extra attempt to sneak attack for crit damage. Then if you go with Champion where you are playing the percentages more. Battlemaster's maneuvers can get you more attacks a round or more tricks to gain advantage. But if you are going 5 levels of Barbarian to get Extra Attack, I would recommend maybe only a 1 to 2 level dip into fighter so you aren't shorting yourself the sneak attack damage.
I'm a big fan of Zealot. It pairs well with Rogue multiclass, since the extra damage helps to compensate for the lessened Sneak Attack damage, and gives you a pleasant little boost to damage for those rounds where you just can't get sneak attack. Plus being able to be revived for the cost of simply a spell slot is nice if you're still going to be a relatively squishy Rogue for most of your levels.
I also like the idea of a Storm Herald for the theming of a pirate/viking character, but unfortunately it's pretty poor mechanically for this particular build... you've got a lot of stuff you do with your bonus action each round, and dealing 1d6 lightning damage isn't as useful as the other stuff you could be doing on your turn. It might be worth it, though, if you want to take the class up to level 6 to gain the ability to breathe underwater and gain a swim speed it might prove useful.
I'd also say that taking a single level in Fighter to nab a fighting style probably isn't as useful as just nabbing the Fighting Initiate feat at some point.
Hi folks!
I've been playing a Rogue/Barbarian for a while now, working my way towards Rogue 7/Barbarian 2. My thinking was mainly to get the Barbarian's Danger Sense stacking with the Rogue's Evasion (advantage on avoiding AOEs, etc), for Uncanny Dodge stacking on top of the regular Rage damage resistance against those big hits, and for Reckless Attack to help ensure I have advantage for Sneak Attack. For my Rogue I picked Swashbuckler, so I'm getting +CHA on my initiative rolls and can use Sneak Attack when I'm 1-on-1 thanks to Rakish Audacity, and Fancy Footwork gives me a bit of a hit-and-run mechanic to play with. This means I'm not having to use Disengage to avoid attacks of opportunity from things I've already whacked, so my bonus attack can be used for either a second hit (I dual-wield) or a Dash so I can keep out of melee with the target I just ran in and dropped a drive-by Sneak Attack on.
((My DM has also been kind enough to let me do Sneak Attack with handaxes: I know this is slightly OP (having thrown and finesse/sneak attack should only be possible with d4 daggers not d6 handaxes), but they're basically just shortswords 90% of the time, and between my mediocre stat roles and spending my feats on Dual Wielder and (Matt Mercer's) Thrown Arms Master instead of ASIs, the extra point of damage here and there gets lost in the noise somewhat.))
In terms of character/flavour, he's got pirate/viking vibes (hence the axes), and is a bit of a Han Solo type: Expertise in Deception/Persuasion, scrappy but will get the hell out of dodge when needed, etc. We're at level 9 now, so the build has clicked into the 7/2 format I was aiming for, and it's working pretty well: I'm able to hold my own 1-on-1 by either evading, avoiding, or reducing damage, and if my party has an enemy occupied I can swoop in for a cheeky sneak attack and then frolic away. It is a very weird and junky sort of build, and isn't optimised at all, but it seems to be holding up okay.
What I can't figure out is where to go next, though. Taking a few levels of Barbarian so I can get Extra Attack seems like a sensible move, so there's extra opportunities for Sneak Attack to trigger and for that extra 10 feet of movement speed on my hit-and-runs, and that puts me right up against the level 6 Path abilities too. I'm a little bit stuck on what the best path option for this build would be, though?
Totem Warrior has a couple of attractive prospects. The added resistance from Bear totem at level 3 would drastically up my survivability against non-physical stuff, which we're increasingly coming up against at level 9; whereas the Elk totem would make my walking speed 45 feet while raging (55 feet by level 5), upped to 110 feet using a Cunning Action to dash, which I'm sure our Monk would find deeply upsetting. My character's name is Glen Fiddich (like the whisky), so an Elk/Deer is pretty on brand, but with my squishy Rogue hit points, the Bear might be the more sensible mechanical choice. As for Aspect of the Beast, that disadvantage avoidance on Wisdom (Perception) from Eagle might be the best pick for Sneak Attack options? Although as a Rogue I'm already proficient (or better) in half the skill list already, so those two extra skills from Tiger - especially if I get as far as Reliable Talent for a Rogue? - might come in handy.
Zealot seems like another interesting option. Divine Fury is a similar mechanic to Sneak Attack, and it works even when Sneak Attack isn't an option for me, so it seems like something that would stack well with the rest of the build? It also says "with a weapon attack", so I assume that means it would work with thrown/ranged as well. Being able to be revivified without needing the pricy diamond from Warrior of the Gods seems handy too. The save reroll from Fanatical Focus seems nice, but I'm not sure it's enough to outweigh the benefits from one of the other paths.
Ancestral Guardian is something that fits really well with the character's storyline, but I'm not 100% sure about how the Ancestral Protectors ability works. Looking at the RAW, it seems like it is an ability that always activates, which seems like a great way for the party tank to draw aggro, but I'm not sure that's a smart move with my squishy Rogue hit points. (It seems like it would stack great with the Wolf ability from Totem Warrior, but sadly you can't get both of those at once!) Spirit Shield sounds interesting - it's similar to Uncanny Dodge but applied to my allies; but I don't know that this build is survivable enough to survive with that "taunt" feature constantly firing off. Maybe once Fast Movement kicks in, and I'm fast enough to reliably get in and out of the danger zone every turn?
tl;dr - Do any of the level 3-6 Barbarian abilities seem like smart choices for a Rogue/Barbarian? Or would I be better off dipping over to Fighter in search of Extra Attack, picking up a Fighting Style and Action Surge along the way?
What the heck is your statline? And how do you fight? With the Dual Wielder feat, you should be dual wielding rapiers, but then you say you're using hand-axes. Do you actually throw them? Because throwing weapons require extra attention to get working - and not for nothing, your rage damage, and much more importantly Reckless Attack, won't apply to them when thrown. You mentioned Extra Attack. Throwing 3 weapons on your turn reliably requires a fighting style you can get from Fighter 1.
EDIT: I just looked up your Thrown Arms Master ability. Assuming my source is correct - I used a wiki - TAM means your scimitars have the Thrown property, which means your hand-axes are just reskinned scimitars with increased range. If you want to lean into the increased range, Ancestral Guardian is the pro move, but you really want Fighter 1 before you take Barbarian 5, so you can grab the Thrown fighting style.
What the heck is your statline?
My stats are pretty garbage. I don't exactly remember what I rolled (it was years ago), but after taking Dual Wielder as a Variant Human at 1st and Thrown Arms Master at 4th, my stats are now 16/15/12/8/10/14. Next opportunity I'll probably be picking up a feat that includes a +1 to Dex to round that off. Yes, I "should" have spent all of my feats on ASIs because of how my stats came out, but I picked fun/interesting over min/maxing.
How do you fight?
Like I mentioned, my handaxes are basically functioning like shortswords (or scimitars) 90% of the time. We're treating them as "scimitars with the thrown property" or "handaxes with the finesse property", however you want to frame that. Yes, rapiers would be the min/max option, but because my character is more of a Viking style pirate, axes felt like the more appropriate choice. Most of the time I am using them at melee range, but being able to throw the axes is really useful against flying opponents, and things that move too quickly for me to keep up. Right before I took the Thrown Arms Master feat, we were being harassed by witches on broomsticks quite a lot, and I wasn't particularly effective in those fights. Leaning into the thrown aspect of the axes seemed more on brand than switching over to a ranged weapon, so I played into the story. It's worked pretty well so far: along the way we've had a number of weapons and items cross our path which pair pretty well with the thrown aspect, so it works just fine for me. Yeah, Rapiers would be better 90% of the time... but only 1 point of damage better on average, and character vibes wins out over 1 point of damage.
You really want Fighter 1
I'm definitely planning on it, though I will probably take Two-Weapon Fighting rather than Thrown Weapon Fighting. Yeah, +2 damage on both weapons (when thrown) is the bigger number, but the +3 damage on the off-hand axe from Two-Weapon Fighting seems like it would win out on average: it applies to thrown and not thrown, I can boost it further by boosting my stats, etc. I'm also hesitant about taking Fighter 1 next, because that a) delays Extra Attack and Fast Movement, but also b) delays my next feat/ASI. Picking my Barbarian path is also something with some story significance attached to it, whereas Fighter is more of a quick dabble; getting that Path decided on and locked in gives the character more direction, and the DM something to work with. Not the min/max choice, but it's still part of my decision-making.
A lot of cool options, but you can never go wrong with Bear Totem Barb. You already have good damage (no need for Zealot) and versatility (no need for Elk Totem or Ancestral Guardian).
If you don't take Thrown, then even with Dual Wielder you can only draw 2 weapons per round, but will want to throw 3. That's not sustainable.
True, but the Thrown Arms Master feat means that if I miss with an attack, the weapon boomerangs around and returns to my hand. Since the main reason for using additional attacks as a Rogue is additional chances for Sneak Attack to trigger, if I make it all the way down to a third attack, there's a decent chance I've missed one or both of the earlier attacks, so there's no need to draw a third weapon: I'm already holding one or both of the earlier two. And if I manage to hit with one or both of my Attack action options, I'm not necessarily going to want to make a third attack with the bonus, since I can only do my Sneak Attack burst damage once - I'm just as likely to want to use a Cunning Action to Dash for some hit-and-run mobility, or to Steady Aim for advantage (or to overcome disadvantage), etc.
For sure, getting that +2 three times adds up to more than my ability modifier on the offhand... but if I'm making that bonus attack, there's a non-zero chance that I missed one or both of my Extra Attack chances: so in that instance, my ability score on the offhand outweighs the +2 from Thrown WM, and it also benefits me in melee as well as thrown. Maybe that'll be different when I have enough throwable magic weapons for some interesting effects to proc, but if that's the case I can always pick up Thrown Weapon Master via a feat, and have the benefit of both. Two-Weapon Fighting feels like the more valuable choice to me, at least in the short term.
Either way, what I'm really looking for is advice on a Barbarian path, regardless of if/when I take Fighter. You briefly mentioned Ancestral Guardians: my worry is that it feels like a very tank orientated ability, and I don't necessarily want to be pulling aggro away from our Battlemaster by being the one target folks don't have disadvantage on.
Then don't tell your enemies they won't have disadvantage against you - your ancestors certainly won't spill the beans.
Totem is hard to beat - bear just brings too much to the table.
Having said that, as a Viking themed character, I'd be looking hard at Storm Herald - Sea. I'm a big believer in flavor/story driving character choices, with optimization coming second.
For me, I would go with Berserker for the frenzied rage and then either Champion or Battlemaster fighter after that. That puts you around level 13 and then do the rest in Swashbuckler.
There are other great choices defensively, like Bear totem and Ancestrial Guardians, but offensively the Berserker makes way more sense. Even if you don't take fighter, you are still hucking axes like a Hammer Bro so the exhaustion makes sense, but you get an extra attack a round, which means an extra attempt to sneak attack for crit damage. Then if you go with Champion where you are playing the percentages more. Battlemaster's maneuvers can get you more attacks a round or more tricks to gain advantage. But if you are going 5 levels of Barbarian to get Extra Attack, I would recommend maybe only a 1 to 2 level dip into fighter so you aren't shorting yourself the sneak attack damage.
I'm a big fan of Zealot. It pairs well with Rogue multiclass, since the extra damage helps to compensate for the lessened Sneak Attack damage, and gives you a pleasant little boost to damage for those rounds where you just can't get sneak attack. Plus being able to be revived for the cost of simply a spell slot is nice if you're still going to be a relatively squishy Rogue for most of your levels.
I also like the idea of a Storm Herald for the theming of a pirate/viking character, but unfortunately it's pretty poor mechanically for this particular build... you've got a lot of stuff you do with your bonus action each round, and dealing 1d6 lightning damage isn't as useful as the other stuff you could be doing on your turn. It might be worth it, though, if you want to take the class up to level 6 to gain the ability to breathe underwater and gain a swim speed it might prove useful.
I'd also say that taking a single level in Fighter to nab a fighting style probably isn't as useful as just nabbing the Fighting Initiate feat at some point.
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