I feel like our thicc friends may not get enough love from wizards of the coast. With that in mind, I was thinking that they maybe should get an extra ASI (probably at level 10 like rogues). To accommodate this, I would probably bump the 10th level subclass features to 9th (brutal critical is a fairly situational benefit, so it doesn't feel like too much). This would give them a fairly substantial benefit right before tier 3, which I feel is important because they won't get a big damage bump at level 11 like most classes will. Why am I thinking ASI? It seems thematic to the class. They are less about equipment or special skills and more about raw physical prowess. This is reflected nicely with their level 20 capstone, but can be kinda lacking up until then. This is exacerbated if they take a feat like great weapon master (which is both a great flavor fit, and important if the barbarian wants good damage). With the extra ASIs a fighter gets, they very easily might have a higher strength than the barbarian for much of the game, which kind of feels wrong. Furthermore, Barbarian is a pretty MAD class. They need Str and Con obviously, but are also dependent on Dex if their unarmored defense is going to be much good. They are more MAD than most Fighters and Rogues, who get extra ASIs. Given that the barbarian is usually not built for ranged combat either, it feels like they are the fighter's less versatile, less damaging cousin whose only real specialty is having hefty HP. That's just comparing him to the fighter. I'll save my rant about how most martial classes don't get enough good abilities past level 11 to compete with casting classes, but that's another discussion.
Sure, a fighter gets an extra feat, but fighters don't have consistent, at-will advantage options like the barbarian does. Simply put, the barbarian achieves more DPR even with less stats. It doesn't need an extra feat, because it's already ahead of the fighter in terms of melee prowess.
Basically, the fighter chassis offers a burst option once per short rest, an extra feat, and a saving throw re-roll once per long rest. By comparison, the barbarian chassis gets at-will advantage, reliable resistance to most common damage types, extra move speed, advantage on initiative rolls, and advantage on dex saving throws. I'd argue the barbarian gets more meaningful tools to fulfill the front-liner role better than the fighter. A barbarian out-damages a fighter over the long run, easily, thanks to reckless+GWM. The difference becomes even more notable the less short rests occur in a campaign. Heck, campaigns where short rests never occur are fairly common!
If you wanted to, you could leave DEX at 14, and try to work towards half-plate armor. You could then lower CON to 14 if you wanted, because why not, you still have a lot of HP and rage still leaves you with a ton of eHP. You could bump up your mental saves a bit if you wanted.
I think it would be a nice addition. Barbs don’t scale particularly well later on most of the time. A lot of their stuff is frontloaded and they kinda end up being a meat shield at higher levels.
they also get a bunch from strength, con and dex which makes them very ASI starved at times, especially when feats are an option. Giving them an extra ASI at ten would give them a lot more flexibility and freedom to make a few more build defining choices without losing out on their scaling.
An ASI at 10 would also give people a bit more of a reason to stick with barbarian instead of multiclassing into fighter. As of now I think barb 6/ fighter 4 or barb 8/ fighter 4 is stronger than barb 10/12.
I think it would be a nice addition. Barbs don’t scale particularly well later on most of the time. A lot of their stuff is frontloaded and they kinda end up being a meat shield at higher levels.
The problem with Barbarian scaling is that a bunch of their higher level features are pretty weak; Brutal Criticals for example are okay but they should really be combo'd with something else, either that or bonus Rage damage should scale higher than it currently does, or be doubled on Reckless Attacks or something.
Personally I don't think an extra ASI is needed; Barbarians aren't especially MAD as Strength and Constitution are all you really need, though a few extra points in Dexterity won't go amiss if you can squeeze them in. They're not particularly feat dependent as they already get a lot of great features from their class (though as Mistborn20 says, they're a little bit front loaded). Fighters get two extra ASIs because it lets you build a more specialised martial, which is kind of their whole deal.
I do sometimes wonder why Rogues get one at 10th, and Monks don't, as that seems backwards to me, especially since Rogues only really need one ability score in the first place (Dexterity).
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Oh absolutely having better later on features would be better. I think rage damage scales too slowly personally and I am not entirely convinced a third attack wouldn’t be a nice addition. Because damage is where they should get the boost in my mind.
Brutal crits are for the big meaty hits. Perhaps even have a boosted crit chance to go with it. there are a lot of fun things you could do with a barb to make all the subclasses feel a bit more like they consistently hit hard
fighters get their million attacks. And the other classes get various flavours of extra on demand burst damage (battle maneuvers, runes) or utility paladins get spells, smites, better armour, the auras. Rogues have the skills, high burst damage, stealth. Barbs tank. They do ok damage. They should do big damage consistently. More than they do now at later levels.
an ASI helps the situation but it doesn’t resolve the problem.
I think Barbarian as a class does sometimes need a little help, because the class generally assumes high STR, CON, and DEX. Rage only provides bonuses to attacks made using STR, while Unarmored Defense keys off of both CON and DEX... and even if you don't choose to rely on Unarmored defense, medium armor still assumes you to have decent DEX to get the full benefits.
Although some Barb skills seem to be designed to compensate for having less-than-ideal DEX. Barbarians get advantage on DEX saves, and even get advantage on Initiative. I might be willing to trade one of those features, however, for an extra ASI.
I feel like our thicc friends may not get enough love from wizards of the coast. With that in mind, I was thinking that they maybe should get an extra ASI (probably at level 10 like rogues). To accommodate this, I would probably bump the 10th level subclass features to 9th (brutal critical is a fairly situational benefit, so it doesn't feel like too much). This would give them a fairly substantial benefit right before tier 3, which I feel is important because they won't get a big damage bump at level 11 like most classes will. Why am I thinking ASI? It seems thematic to the class. They are less about equipment or special skills and more about raw physical prowess. This is reflected nicely with their level 20 capstone, but can be kinda lacking up until then. This is exacerbated if they take a feat like great weapon master (which is both a great flavor fit, and important if the barbarian wants good damage). With the extra ASIs a fighter gets, they very easily might have a higher strength than the barbarian for much of the game, which kind of feels wrong. Furthermore, Barbarian is a pretty MAD class. They need Str and Con obviously, but are also dependent on Dex if their unarmored defense is going to be much good. They are more MAD than most Fighters and Rogues, who get extra ASIs. Given that the barbarian is usually not built for ranged combat either, it feels like they are the fighter's less versatile, less damaging cousin whose only real specialty is having hefty HP. That's just comparing him to the fighter. I'll save my rant about how most martial classes don't get enough good abilities past level 11 to compete with casting classes, but that's another discussion.
Thoughts?
Eh, kinda sorta, but not really.
Sure, a fighter gets an extra feat, but fighters don't have consistent, at-will advantage options like the barbarian does. Simply put, the barbarian achieves more DPR even with less stats. It doesn't need an extra feat, because it's already ahead of the fighter in terms of melee prowess.
Basically, the fighter chassis offers a burst option once per short rest, an extra feat, and a saving throw re-roll once per long rest. By comparison, the barbarian chassis gets at-will advantage, reliable resistance to most common damage types, extra move speed, advantage on initiative rolls, and advantage on dex saving throws. I'd argue the barbarian gets more meaningful tools to fulfill the front-liner role better than the fighter. A barbarian out-damages a fighter over the long run, easily, thanks to reckless+GWM. The difference becomes even more notable the less short rests occur in a campaign. Heck, campaigns where short rests never occur are fairly common!
If you wanted to, you could leave DEX at 14, and try to work towards half-plate armor. You could then lower CON to 14 if you wanted, because why not, you still have a lot of HP and rage still leaves you with a ton of eHP. You could bump up your mental saves a bit if you wanted.
I think it would be a nice addition. Barbs don’t scale particularly well later on most of the time. A lot of their stuff is frontloaded and they kinda end up being a meat shield at higher levels.
they also get a bunch from strength, con and dex which makes them very ASI starved at times, especially when feats are an option. Giving them an extra ASI at ten would give them a lot more flexibility and freedom to make a few more build defining choices without losing out on their scaling.
An ASI at 10 would also give people a bit more of a reason to stick with barbarian instead of multiclassing into fighter. As of now I think barb 6/ fighter 4 or barb 8/ fighter 4 is stronger than barb 10/12.
The problem with Barbarian scaling is that a bunch of their higher level features are pretty weak; Brutal Criticals for example are okay but they should really be combo'd with something else, either that or bonus Rage damage should scale higher than it currently does, or be doubled on Reckless Attacks or something.
Personally I don't think an extra ASI is needed; Barbarians aren't especially MAD as Strength and Constitution are all you really need, though a few extra points in Dexterity won't go amiss if you can squeeze them in. They're not particularly feat dependent as they already get a lot of great features from their class (though as Mistborn20 says, they're a little bit front loaded). Fighters get two extra ASIs because it lets you build a more specialised martial, which is kind of their whole deal.
I do sometimes wonder why Rogues get one at 10th, and Monks don't, as that seems backwards to me, especially since Rogues only really need one ability score in the first place (Dexterity).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Oh absolutely having better later on features would be better. I think rage damage scales too slowly personally and I am not entirely convinced a third attack wouldn’t be a nice addition. Because damage is where they should get the boost in my mind.
Brutal crits are for the big meaty hits. Perhaps even have a boosted crit chance to go with it. there are a lot of fun things you could do with a barb to make all the subclasses feel a bit more like they consistently hit hard
fighters get their million attacks. And the other classes get various flavours of extra on demand burst damage (battle maneuvers, runes) or utility paladins get spells, smites, better armour, the auras. Rogues have the skills, high burst damage, stealth. Barbs tank. They do ok damage. They should do big damage consistently. More than they do now at later levels.
an ASI helps the situation but it doesn’t resolve the problem.
I think Barbarian as a class does sometimes need a little help, because the class generally assumes high STR, CON, and DEX. Rage only provides bonuses to attacks made using STR, while Unarmored Defense keys off of both CON and DEX... and even if you don't choose to rely on Unarmored defense, medium armor still assumes you to have decent DEX to get the full benefits.
Although some Barb skills seem to be designed to compensate for having less-than-ideal DEX. Barbarians get advantage on DEX saves, and even get advantage on Initiative. I might be willing to trade one of those features, however, for an extra ASI.
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